The green or white splash is more painful and opens you up to getting killed by fast aggro / burn. Paying 5 life to thoughtseize a lightning bolt on turn 1 is not exactly an effective play. So while being able to answer Leyline is great, it must be weighed against maintaining consistency against the most diverse amount of decks as possible.
As was mentioned earlier by Frank - Storm and Eggs are basically dead. Modern RDW decks have a fairly substantial beats package to play around the leyline. Goblins and Elves are cropping up. Thus, Leyline is seeing less and less play in sideboards.
So while I will not counsel against splashing in this strategy, I will highly recommend that any splashing take into consideration your own vulnerability to fast and/or top decked damage. Depending on your own personal meta, it may be better to just accept Leyline as a cost of doing business rather than weaken your game against speedy decks.
I looked through both the paper and MTGO top decks to find exactly how prevalent Leyline is. If the card is barely played, then we don't need to worry about it, and can stick with the Mono B or RB composition. But if the card is all over the place, then we won't have much of a choice in running White or Green.
MTGO METAGAME - LEYLINE IN 10% OF DECKS
Using decklists.net to look through the MTGO metagame, I found that there were only 38 decks since March 2013 that ran Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard. Of those 38 decks, 26% of them were Bogles, and another 16% of them were Reanimator. The rest were some combination of Tron, Storm, Twin, Eggs, and other random decks.
By comparison, there were 366 total decks that were logged in the decklists.net database from MTGO events in the March-June 2013 time period. With 38 of those decks running Leyline of Sanctity, that brings the Leyline representation to only about 10% of total decks in the online metagame.
PAPER METAGAME - LEYLINE IN <7% OF DECKS
Using TCDecks.net as a source for the paper metagame, I conducted a similar analysis looking at all decks that ran Leyline of Sanctity in the board. During the same March through June 2013 time period, 51 decks that made Top 8 at any event had some number of LoS in their board. 20% of those decks were Eggs, 12% were Hatebears, 12% were WUR Midrange, and 10% were Zoo. The remaining 46% of Leyline decks were some combination of Storm, Twin, Pod, and a few others, but none in any serious capacity.
What percentage of the total paper metagame did those Leyline decks make up? Using stats from TCDecks and MtG Decks Database, I found that there were at least 729 decks that made Top 8 during that period (it might be more and my query was incorrectly entered). Based on that low-end number, those 51 Leyline decks only constituted 7% of the paper metagame, a number that actually overestimates the actual representation.
PAPER EVENTS w/ >100 PLAYERS - LEYLINE IN 9% OF DECKS
I also wanted to see how Leyline was represented at big events with more than 100 players. Just looking at events from March through June, 15 Top 8 decks played Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard. With 161 total decks in the top 8 of large events, the Leyline decks only made up 9% of that metagame.
CONCLUSION
Unless Leyline starts to really take off, we can probably hedge our bets and not worry about the card. It just doesn't show up enough to worry too much. This suggests that RB is a much more viable color combination than I and other had initially thought. The main reason to run Green or White, Leyline, just isn't played enough in the current metagame.
Wait so you are saying that actual facts exist to back up my gut feelings / guesstimations? Awesome! Thanks for doing the research. It's actually a lot better than I thought. In the primer video I estimated that Leyline was in about 10-15% of all sideboard in MTGO.
So basically RB is back on the table, and so is Mono Black. Check out my last list bearing this in mind. I have been having a lot of success with it.
Also. do you mind if I add those statistics to the primer? Credit given of course.
Wait so you are saying that actual facts exist to back up my gut feelings / guesstimations? Awesome! Thanks for doing the research. It's actually a lot better than I thought. In the primer video I estimated that Leyline was in about 10-15% of all sideboard in MTGO.
So basically RB is back on the table, and so is Mono Black. Check out my last list bearing this in mind. I have been having a lot of success with it.
Also. do you mind if I add those statistics to the primer? Credit given of course.
Feel free to add to the primer, and thanks for the credit. If you want an abbreviated version to just paste in, you could use this:
Green is an enemy color, but it is by no means hard to splash for. Heck, you could argue that having fetches makes it easier, but not by much either way. I can see the potential for more life loss being an issue in close games, but for my money green is a color that adds just so much versatility out of the SB.
Keep in mind I am talking about a genuine splash, not a huge color commitment.
LOL, then again I run Leyline all the damn time so y'all not running hate is good news for me.
This is not how bans/unbans work. Its always the enabler that gets the ban, not the card that is being abused. If you would have Yawgmoths will + whatever cards - it would be Yawgs that would be banned. If you would have Stoneforge and batterskull - it would be stone who would be banned and that is exactly how it works. Furthermore, banning a card in order to unban a different card is a thought process that was and wont be never applied in practical means.
The utility of Lingering Souls (and of the white splash) seems quite overlooked in this deck in my opinion. On paper, It does:
...
-stall the game to pseudo-lock the opponent and kill
I am just curious what this "pseudo lock" is.
Flagstones of the troskair is even better than before with the new legends rules and it fits really well with Small Pox.
Whether they are better now (one the 14th) is debatable, but for the sake of this deck it may not matter.
Couple of O.Ring in the SD are less good than A.decay or M.pulse but are still a catch-all worth couple of slots in the SD.
This is where you are really down-playing the strength of BG removal. They really are in a whole 'nother league when compared to O-Ring.
When we play BR with 4 Pyroclasm and Bolts, do we still need the bridge or cant we switch it out for 4 Blightning and just use it to burn em off some more/faster?
I mean bridge is nice against fast aggro like affinity, but so is pyroclasm. In Combomatchups it is rarely needed. I could be sideboard material. Maybe some more testing to do.
It could work but i would be worried about my opponent top decking a fatty. If you drop the bridges you must find a different way to create card advantage. Thats right ensnaring bridge creates what I call "soft card" advantage by proactively neutralizing multiple threats. Without the bridge you need something like phyrexian arena to keep ahead of your opponent. And if you are willing to commit to arena, you may just as well use bridge.
This deck is skill intensive.
Requires you to have a good grasp of the meta.
Misplays are often fatal.
Presents difficult situations where card removal choices become painful at best.
Surgical Extraction, Extirpate and Sadistic Sacrament are good choices for this deck. Gitaxian Probe is also an option, but off colour.
Knowing the deck you are playing against is more important than Goldfishing this deck effectively since they are the same thing.
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Level 1 Judge - Altruistic Community Service.
My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
What this deck is lacking is a search card, the best card to fill this role is Infernal Tutor.
Firstly it only cost two mana, for a low curve mana deck like this one it is perfect.
Secondly, you can quickly play your hand to get the Hellbent ability to get any card you want.
Third, the normal search mode is also good, you can get a second copy of your finisher card.
Fourth, it can help in situations when you are missing a vital card, like in the video where Raven's Crime wasn't drawn.
It just depends on how many copies you need. I think that 2-3 copies would be the right amount, only testing will determine which one is correct.
Tutor seems quite strong at first glance, and the two mana price tag makes a big difference over the 3 CMC of Beseech. It makes our decks topdeck mode a whole lot better; starting at around turn 4, I find myself in total topdeck mode with no other cards in hand (i.e. HELLBENT!). Could definitely be a tool that this deck needs to push it to the next level. I intend on putting 3 in the deck and trying that out. Will go down to 2 if that is too many.
Still I dont want to splash white as I dont so its benefits over red or green.
I want to emphasize my findings on Leyline's prevalence in Modern. White and Green are only better than Red in that they give us better options against enchantments. For removal and discard, Red is seems like a much better option with better manabase additions (Blackcleave Cliffs alone is huge).
I looked at Infernal Tutor. Seemed good, but no idea where to slot it.
Figured I would play the vanilla list before seeing if you need the 9-10 Racks.
This deck loses to aggro with burn backup. So much reach in the way of top deck Boros Charm, Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix.
Ran into a funny situation today... had a Inkmoth Nexus declare, then he slid a plating on it for {B}{B}… I assume that is a legal move before damage is dealt?
*Edit* Can you Darkblast during your upkeep, Dredge it and then Darkblast again during first main phase for hate bears and weenies?
Infernal Tutor looks quite promising. 2-3 seems about right. I will probably start at 3 just to get the feel for the card then cut it back to 2. Even it's normal search mode isn't terrible. I will certainly test this out, nice find.
I looked at Infernal Tutor. Seemed good, but no idea where to slot it.
Figured I would play the vanilla list before seeing if you need the 9-10 Racks.
This deck loses to aggro with burn backup. So much reach in the way of top deck Boros Charm, Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix.
Ran into a funny situation today... had a Inkmoth Nexus declare, then he slid a plating on it for {B}{B}… I assume that is a legal move before damage is dealt?
That move is completely legal and correct. It's one of the reasons you want to get rid of their platings directly from their hand if possible. Sweeping their artifacts with pyroclasm or using Pithing needle helps a lot.
In regards to the aggro burn weakness - that is what Leyline of Sanctity is in the side for (answers your earlier question I think). This forces them to beat you with critters, and play around Bridge.
Is there any room in the deck for Ravenous Rats? It could even win the match on its own or even speed up the win clock. Maybe the two mana cost is too much to consider, but this card could easily 2-for-1 your opponent in that they have to deal with it somehow, else it will run them over.
I looked at Infernal Tutor. Seemed good, but no idea where to slot it.
Figured I would play the vanilla list before seeing if you need the 9-10 Racks.
This deck loses to aggro with burn backup. So much reach in the way of top deck Boros Charm, Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix.
Ran into a funny situation today... had a Inkmoth Nexus declare, then he slid a plating on it for {B}{B}… I assume that is a legal move before damage is dealt?
*Edit* Can you Darkblast during your upkeep, Dredge it and then Darkblast again during first main phase for hate bears and weenies?
Yes to Darkblast. And against Affinity you want to Dredge Darkblast every turn they have a guy on board. Unless you have no board presence.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
That move is completely legal and correct. It's one of the reasons you want to get rid of their platings directly from their hand if possible. Sweeping their artifacts with pyroclasm or using Pithing needle helps a lot.
In regards to the aggro burn weakness - that is what Leyline of Sanctity is in the side for (answers your earlier question I think). This forces them to beat you with critters, and play around Bridge.
I figured as much. I's almost be inclined to run something that would life gain and deal damage than Leyline.
Splash Green for seems the correct splash, if you decide to splash.
Shadowfeed seems to be the ideal sideboard option for aggro w/ burn.
So far I havent died horribly to leyline... But should I see more (Even 1 out of 20 matches is enough for me) I'll be taking this list and converting it to jund mana (so I can use green side)
I looked through both the paper and MTGO top decks to find exactly how prevalent Leyline is. If the card is barely played, then we don't need to worry about it, and can stick with the Mono B or RB composition. But if the card is all over the place, then we won't have much of a choice in running White or Green.
MTGO METAGAME - LEYLINE IN 10% OF DECKS
Using decklists.net to look through the MTGO metagame, I found that there were only 38 decks since March 2013 that ran Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard. Of those 38 decks, 26% of them were Bogles, and another 16% of them were Reanimator. The rest were some combination of Tron, Storm, Twin, Eggs, and other random decks.
By comparison, there were 366 total decks that were logged in the decklists.net database from MTGO events in the March-June 2013 time period. With 38 of those decks running Leyline of Sanctity, that brings the Leyline representation to only about 10% of total decks in the online metagame.
PAPER METAGAME - LEYLINE IN <7% OF DECKS
Using TCDecks.net as a source for the paper metagame, I conducted a similar analysis looking at all decks that ran Leyline of Sanctity in the board. During the same March through June 2013 time period, 51 decks that made Top 8 at any event had some number of LoS in their board. 20% of those decks were Eggs, 12% were Hatebears, 12% were WUR Midrange, and 10% were Zoo. The remaining 46% of Leyline decks were some combination of Storm, Twin, Pod, and a few others, but none in any serious capacity.
What percentage of the total paper metagame did those Leyline decks make up? Using stats from TCDecks and MtG Decks Database, I found that there were at least 729 decks that made Top 8 during that period (it might be more and my query was incorrectly entered). Based on that low-end number, those 51 Leyline decks only constituted 7% of the paper metagame, a number that actually overestimates the actual representation.
PAPER EVENTS w/ >100 PLAYERS - LEYLINE IN 9% OF DECKS
I also wanted to see how Leyline was represented at big events with more than 100 players. Just looking at events from March through June, 15 Top 8 decks played Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard. With 161 total decks in the top 8 of large events, the Leyline decks only made up 9% of that metagame.
CONCLUSION
Unless Leyline starts to really take off, we can probably hedge our bets and not worry about the card. It just doesn't show up enough to worry too much. This suggests that RB is a much more viable color combination than I and other had initially thought. The main reason to run Green or White, Leyline, just isn't played enough in the current metagame.
So basically RB is back on the table, and so is Mono Black. Check out my last list bearing this in mind. I have been having a lot of success with it.
Also. do you mind if I add those statistics to the primer? Credit given of course.
Feel free to add to the primer, and thanks for the credit. If you want an abbreviated version to just paste in, you could use this:
-------------------------------------------
Deck statistics from TCDecks.net, MtG Decks Database, and Decklists.net were used to determine the prevalence of Leyline of Sanctity in the paper and MTGO metagames. Results are compiled below:
MTGO METAGAME - LEYLINE IN 10% OF DECKS
OVERALL PAPER METAGAME - LEYLINE IN <7% OF DECKS
PAPER EVENTS w/ >100 PLAYERS - LEYLINE IN 9% OF DECKS
Click here to read a more in-depth explanation of the calculations and the Leyline representation.
---------------------------------------------
Happy to help out in the deck creation process! It's always nice to confirm gut instinct with actual data.
8Rack vs UW Midrangel: http://youtu.be/P0FPgL-e2Ts
8Rack vs Soul Sisters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqZm3xPtWg0
Keep in mind I am talking about a genuine splash, not a huge color commitment.
LOL, then again I run Leyline all the damn time so y'all not running hate is good news for me.
...to the worm cave!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Whether they are better now (one the 14th) is debatable, but for the sake of this deck it may not matter.
This is where you are really down-playing the strength of BG removal. They really are in a whole 'nother league when compared to O-Ring.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
It could work but i would be worried about my opponent top decking a fatty. If you drop the bridges you must find a different way to create card advantage. Thats right ensnaring bridge creates what I call "soft card" advantage by proactively neutralizing multiple threats. Without the bridge you need something like phyrexian arena to keep ahead of your opponent. And if you are willing to commit to arena, you may just as well use bridge.
Something to consider:
This deck is skill intensive.
Requires you to have a good grasp of the meta.
Misplays are often fatal.
Presents difficult situations where card removal choices become painful at best.
Surgical Extraction, Extirpate and Sadistic Sacrament are good choices for this deck. Gitaxian Probe is also an option, but off colour.
Knowing the deck you are playing against is more important than Goldfishing this deck effectively since they are the same thing.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Firstly it only cost two mana, for a low curve mana deck like this one it is perfect.
Secondly, you can quickly play your hand to get the Hellbent ability to get any card you want.
Third, the normal search mode is also good, you can get a second copy of your finisher card.
Fourth, it can help in situations when you are missing a vital card, like in the video where Raven's Crime wasn't drawn.
It just depends on how many copies you need. I think that 2-3 copies would be the right amount, only testing will determine which one is correct.
I also think that the land Fetid Heath should be added to the deck to play white cards.
Tutor seems quite strong at first glance, and the two mana price tag makes a big difference over the 3 CMC of Beseech. It makes our decks topdeck mode a whole lot better; starting at around turn 4, I find myself in total topdeck mode with no other cards in hand (i.e. HELLBENT!). Could definitely be a tool that this deck needs to push it to the next level. I intend on putting 3 in the deck and trying that out. Will go down to 2 if that is too many.
I want to emphasize my findings on Leyline's prevalence in Modern. White and Green are only better than Red in that they give us better options against enchantments. For removal and discard, Red is seems like a much better option with better manabase additions (Blackcleave Cliffs alone is huge).
Figured I would play the vanilla list before seeing if you need the 9-10 Racks.
This deck loses to aggro with burn backup. So much reach in the way of top deck Boros Charm, Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix.
Ran into a funny situation today... had a Inkmoth Nexus declare, then he slid a plating on it for {B}{B}… I assume that is a legal move before damage is dealt?
*Edit* Can you Darkblast during your upkeep, Dredge it and then Darkblast again during first main phase for hate bears and weenies?
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
That move is completely legal and correct. It's one of the reasons you want to get rid of their platings directly from their hand if possible. Sweeping their artifacts with pyroclasm or using Pithing needle helps a lot.
In regards to the aggro burn weakness - that is what Leyline of Sanctity is in the side for (answers your earlier question I think). This forces them to beat you with critters, and play around Bridge.
Yes to Darkblast. And against Affinity you want to Dredge Darkblast every turn they have a guy on board. Unless you have no board presence.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I'd be more inclined to run Dark Blast than Infest in this case.
I figured as much. I's almost be inclined to run something that would life gain and deal damage than Leyline.
Splash Green for seems the correct splash, if you decide to splash.
Shadowfeed seems to be the ideal sideboard option for aggro w/ burn.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
8 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Graven Cairns
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Lock wins
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Rise // Fall
3 Blightning
3 Wrench Mind
Bridges
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Beseech the Queen