So in Game 2 and 3 against them you'd be bringing in discard and slaughter games I'm guessing from what you just said xD, is there anything else you would bring in against them?
I typically get rid of damnations and devour flesh in favor of Shadow of Doubt, a singleton thoughtseize, and Slaughter Games. Note, this is against UWR wafo-tapa style draw go, not UWR midrange. I occasionally add in a singleton pithing needle (non trinket mage version) just to make dealing with resolved planeswalkers or manlands easier.
I usually save slaughter games for cryptic command or Revelation, but sometimes if I get an early inquisition, I'll follow it up with using slaughter games to force them to discard something that they already have in hand.
I have played mostly Grixis Control in standard, but Dragon's Maze did bring us some goodies. I see some have already been discussed, but I'll recap:
Far // Away is a good and versatile card, which is sometimes what you need. Usually, the Away part is the only thing you care about, but Far comes in handy against tokens and in recasting your Snapcaster Mage. It is a bit slow though, so I would recommend keeping around Geth's Verdict (I don't care much for Devour Flesh.)
Aetherling is a bit slow, even in Standard - but once resolved it ends game quickly. Obliviously, Cruel Ultimatum might be seen as a better finisher, so I would not run more than one. But I would still put one in, since there are cases where the Ultimatum doesn't work. Threat versatility is important.
Master of Cruelties is on the brink of being not standard-playable. However, Modern is plagued by life-gain decks and it might be a good weapon against such decks.
Notion Thief is an absolute beast in the control match-up. Your revelating opponent will never see it coming, most likely rage-quitting the minute you land it. Put it in the side-board if UWR or Esper control is a thing in your meta.
I'd also like to mention that if your meta is full of planes-walkers, that Magmaquake and Dreadbore are available to you. Magmaquake is an instant, and a little bit expensive, but it is still good. Dreadbore is a very useful card, but beware that it is sorcery speed. Against Jund though, it is quite the ace.
Finally, on Izzet Charm... that's just such a terrible card. Avoid it at all costs.
I have played mostly Grixis Control in standard, but Dragon's Maze did bring us some goodies. I see some have already been discussed, but I'll recap:
Far//Away is a good and versatile card, which is something that you need. Usually, the Away part is the only thing you care about, but Far comes in handy against tokens and in recasting your Snapcaster Mage. It is a bit slow though, so I would recommend keeping around Geth's Verdict (I don't care much for Devour Flesh.)
Aetherling is a bit slow, even in Standard - but once resolved it ends game quickly. Obliviously, Cruel Ultimatum might be seen as a better finisher, so I would not run more than one. But I would still put one in, since there are cases where the Ultimatum doesn't work. Threat versatility is important.
Master of Cruelties is on the brink of being not standard-playable. However, Modern is plagued by life-gain decks and it might be a good weapon against such decks.
Notion Thief is an absolute beast in the control match-up. Your revelating opponent will never see it coming, most likely rage-quitting the minute you land it. Put it in the side-board if UWR or Esper control is a thing in your meta.
I'd also like to mention that if your meta is full of planes-walkers, that Magmaquake and Dreadbore are available to you. Magmaquake is an instant, and a little bit expensive, but it is still good. Dreadbore is a very useful card, but beware that it is sorcery speed. Against Jund though, it is quite the ace.
Finally, on Izzet Charm... that's just such a terrible card. Avoid it at all costs.
This may apply to standard, but Standard does not equal modern. Izzet charm is very important for winning counter wars, countering cards like birthing pod and Liliana, or simply killing deathrite shamans. Saying Izzet charm is terrible really is just not true in any way shape or form.
Notion thief is a sideboard card in standard against sphinx's revelation decks. In modern, the only deck that plays revelation is UWR draw-go, and it only plays 2-3 of them. Outside that matchup, there are almost zero decks that play draw spells in modern that would make Notion Thief matter. Unless they start reprinting brainstorm, I don't think Notion thief is going to be a great card in here (although, you could definitely choose a worse card).
As for creature finishers, once again, you don't need them (especially if they're only fringe playable in standard), and you especially don't need threat diversity in a control deck. UWR decks would love you to pay 6 mana to cast an Aetherling while they slam down a cryptic command and kill you with a Geist. It's just not a smart strategy. In standard, you can get away with big finishers much easier since there are very few counterspell decks and the format is much slower. There are a lot more decks with counters in Modern than there are in Standard.
Don't take the the wrong way, but, have you ever actually played a Modern event? It's like you've never even seen a modern meta or how a control deck handles said meta.
@magicman: No, not paper events, unfortunately - but I have played my fair share of MODO games. It is true though, that I have played more Standard than Modern lately, but I think I already said that.
@Blud Ale: I didn't in any shape or form indicate that the above mentioned cards were substitutes for Izzet Charm, and having read the text again, I fail to see how you would make that connection.
As far as the discussion about finisher go, well, I agree - Cruel Ultimatum is awesome. That is, when it sticks and when you have control. There was a time when Lingering Souls and Spectral Possession was a thing, and against those Thundermaw Hellkite was quite effective.
I have played games (against aggro) where they simply depleted my resources as I was forced to respond to their many threats. In those situations, the ultimatum wouldn't have done much of anything, and I would have preferred to draw Blue Sun's Zenith in order to find Damnation or other kill spells.
As far as Izzet Charm goes, I much prefer a hard counter. The Spell Pierce effect is too easily played around, the Shock is not potent enough (and too expensive), and the cycling is card disadvantage.
I'm still fitting in Mystical Teachings in my deck, but I don't see you guys are running it. What's the reason for that?
@magicman: No, not paper events, unfortunately - but I have played my fair share of MODO games. It is true though, that I have played more Standard than Modern lately, but I think I already said that.
@Blud Ale: I didn't in any shape or form indicate that the above mentioned cards were substitutes for Izzet Charm, and having read the text again, I fail to see how you would make that connection.
As far as the discussion about finisher go, well, I agree - Cruel Ultimatum is awesome. That is, when it sticks and when you have control. There was a time when Lingering Souls and Spectral Possession was a thing, and against those Thundermaw Hellkite was quite effective.
I have played games (against aggro) where they simply depleted my resources as I was forced to respond to their many threats. In those situations, the ultimatum wouldn't have done much of anything, and I would have preferred to draw Blue Sun's Zenith in order to find Damnation or other kill spells.
As far as Izzet Charm goes, I much prefer a hard counter. The Spell Pierce effect is too easily played around, the Shock is not potent enough (and too expensive), and the cycling is card disadvantage.
I'm still fitting in Mystical Teachings in my deck, but I don't see you guys are running it. What's the reason for that?
Thing about charm, is just about every deck that plays creatures in the meta plays creatures that have power 2 or less. When it comes to stabilizing against aggro, izzet charm isn't perfect, but it's better than having a hand full of mana leaks. If it's not your thing, then that's fine, but at the very least, you can't say it's terrible.
As for ultimatum, if you're facing a horde of creatures frequently that you can't deal with, it's probably a sign that you should re-evaluate your removal and other aspects of your deck. That's not to say that's necessarily the problem, but perhaps you could share what you're currently playing?
I'm also not sure why you would want zenith over ultimatum at 7. For 7 mana, blue sun's zenith draws you 4 cards, whereas cruel draws you 3, then grabs back a snapcaster, kills one of your opponent's creatures, and stabilizes your life total. If your opponent has to discard, that's just pudding on top. That's strictly superior to drawing 4 cards.
As for teachings, I just find it a bit too slow. It only starts to accrue card advantage after you've invested 10 mana into it. If the format had more draw-go mirrors where you're not forced to use your mana for removal or counters, it would be awesome, but that's just not the case in a midrange and aggressive format.
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@magicman: No, not paper events, unfortunately - but I have played my fair share of MODO games. It is true though, that I have played more Standard than Modern lately, but I think I already said that.
@Blud Ale: I didn't in any shape or form indicate that the above mentioned cards were substitutes for Izzet Charm, and having read the text again, I fail to see how you would make that connection.
As far as the discussion about finisher go, well, I agree - Cruel Ultimatum is awesome. That is, when it sticks and when you have control. There was a time when Lingering Souls and Spectral Possession was a thing, and against those Thundermaw Hellkite was quite effective.
I have played games (against aggro) where they simply depleted my resources as I was forced to respond to their many threats. In those situations, the ultimatum wouldn't have done much of anything, and I would have preferred to draw Blue Sun's Zenith in order to find Damnation or other kill spells.
As far as Izzet Charm goes, I much prefer a hard counter. The Spell Pierce effect is too easily played around, the Shock is not potent enough (and too expensive), and the cycling is card disadvantage.
I'm still fitting in Mystical Teachings in my deck, but I don't see you guys are running it. What's the reason for that?
You said izzet charm was just an awfully terrible card so I said that i would much rather draw that card then any you had mentioned. There was no connection made, I'm stating my opinion that izzet charm isn't such a bad card and that I'd much rather see it then the others.
Inquisition of Kozilek can be better than Thoughtseize if you're expecting more aggro in your meta than control/combo decks where the wider selection is better. That's why I play IoK over Thoughtseize at least. I do agree with you on the Slagstorm part though, Pyroclasm is almost always better. The single red mana is allows it be cast easier, and also faster its faster.
Inquisition of Kozilek can be better than Thoughtseize if you're expecting more aggro in your meta than control/combo decks where the wider selection is better. That's why I play IoK over Thoughtseize at least. I do agree with you on the Slagstorm part though, Pyroclasm is almost always better. The single red mana is allows it be cast easier, and also faster its faster.
To me it seems Volcanic Fallout would be a more viable option seeing as how it's instant and for the price you get protection from counters.
Depends on the matchup. Fallout is better against Twin, Pyroclasm is better against Elves and Affinity.
Pyroclasm is good against a lot of decks other than Elves and Affinity, it's also good against Tokens, R/G Grull and some other decks I can't think of right now, also Fallout I don;t think I would be bringing in against Twin, but I think it's best used as a tool against UWR geist.
Our main answer's to burn are Sun Droplet and Dragon's Claw, Spellskite also heaps here so maybe add an extra one if it becomes incredibly common in the online Meta.
Most of our deck's play 2 Cruel Ultimatum, most of us came to the conclusion that it's stronger than any finisher we have available, so there's a play test option. I do like the Vendillion Clique though as in testing I've found it as a great way to use to distract control decks the turn before you cast cruel ultimatum. I found it stronger in the sideboard, how often has it been useful compared to you'd rather have it be something like maybe a Terminate or similair removal spell since I noticed you deck was short on such spells.
As for card draw some of us play Thoughtflare as our card draw choice as opposed to your choice in Think Twice. If you really want card draw/consistency you can also play serum visions which is a great turn one card draw.
So is Void any good? I'm thinking about building a control deck and I thought this thread would be a good place to ask.
Void is pretty bad. You would be better off playing persecute, which also sees very little play and is a bit slow.
i do play think twice x 4 in mainboard , its a great draw engine if you cast in early game , against control is a powerhouse, it's like draw 2 per turn , and you win the card advantage race.
I've never understood the love for think twice. The only time it's ever half-way decent is in the grindy control mirrors that are almost nonexistant in modern. The thing about think twice, is it requires a total of 5 mana to actually net you just 1 extra card. That's incredibly inefficient. Thoughtflare for 5 mana nets you +2 cards, and also is extremely effective for digging and filtering draws. If you just want the cantrip, you're better off playing peek than think twice.
I wouldn't discount Thoughtflare's power just because it isn't played much in standard. Standard is a much different format, and most of those decks are playing Sphinx's revelation instead anyway, and the cards play two similar, but very different roles.
Liliana of the Veil: I am on the fence with this card, but it seems like one of the best ways to fight against GW Auras, that has risen in popularity. And until M14 rules change, it can effectively kill an opposing Liliana. Not sure if it is a staple in the list though.
Most of us have adopted Devour Flesh as a staple in our lists since it deals with Geist of Saint Traft, Bogles, while also being an effective kill spell against Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant. It even can handle Emrakul for a turn or two before they fetch it up again off Eye of Ugin. The variant that is posted in the OP works really well when you pair devour flesh with Augur of Bolas, since it gives you a way to gain 3 life at instant speed against decks like Burn.
Now then, I would really appreciate any and all cards and things you can propose, for example, some answers to Burn and what not.
Burn is a bad matchup, just how it is. The main problem isn't just the burn, but rather the fact that so many players sideboard in blood moon as well. Some of us play sun droplet, but that's really only good against burn and nothing else. I personally recommend the augur of bolas + devour flesh strategy as a small way that you can help out your burn matchup. Spellskites of course help here too as they also do against twin, infect and bogles. It's the most widely played SB card in modern for a pretty good reason.
For Burn do not get cute with things like Sun Droplet and Dragon's Claw. You best weapons are Spellskite (also really good vs Infect and Bogle, useful versus Scapeshift) and Spell Pierce.
For Burn do not get cute with things like Sun Droplet and Dragon's Claw. You best weapons are Spellskite (also really good vs Infect and Bogle, useful versus Scapeshift) and Spell Pierce.
I sort of agree. The main issue with burn, is it's just a bad matchup. The problem with spellskite against burn is that it won't block lava spike, boros charm, or bump in the night, all of which are relevant cards in the matchup. It also gives your burn opponent a target to make their inevitable searing blaze relevant.
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Yeah, that's an issue, but I assume Burn players won't have Searing Blazes for Game 2 versus this deck (maybe on G3 after seeing Spellskite). I like it because it's good on other matchups too, but Spell Pierce also puts up a lot of work.
I'll be streaming my variant of the deck tomorrow, I think this deck has some power in the metagame atm
Just curious why I haven't seen a ton of Dreadship Reefs? The card is great at accelerating your mana and letting you cast "early" Cruels (or in my case giant dragons and unkillable things)
just trying to determine which Jace is better to run Beleren or Architect?
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
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I typically get rid of damnations and devour flesh in favor of Shadow of Doubt, a singleton thoughtseize, and Slaughter Games. Note, this is against UWR wafo-tapa style draw go, not UWR midrange. I occasionally add in a singleton pithing needle (non trinket mage version) just to make dealing with resolved planeswalkers or manlands easier.
I usually save slaughter games for cryptic command or Revelation, but sometimes if I get an early inquisition, I'll follow it up with using slaughter games to force them to discard something that they already have in hand.
Far // Away is a good and versatile card, which is sometimes what you need. Usually, the Away part is the only thing you care about, but Far comes in handy against tokens and in recasting your Snapcaster Mage. It is a bit slow though, so I would recommend keeping around Geth's Verdict (I don't care much for Devour Flesh.)
Aetherling is a bit slow, even in Standard - but once resolved it ends game quickly. Obliviously, Cruel Ultimatum might be seen as a better finisher, so I would not run more than one. But I would still put one in, since there are cases where the Ultimatum doesn't work. Threat versatility is important.
Master of Cruelties is on the brink of being not standard-playable. However, Modern is plagued by life-gain decks and it might be a good weapon against such decks.
Notion Thief is an absolute beast in the control match-up. Your revelating opponent will never see it coming, most likely rage-quitting the minute you land it. Put it in the side-board if UWR or Esper control is a thing in your meta.
I'd also like to mention that if your meta is full of planes-walkers, that Magmaquake and Dreadbore are available to you. Magmaquake is an instant, and a little bit expensive, but it is still good. Dreadbore is a very useful card, but beware that it is sorcery speed. Against Jund though, it is quite the ace.
Finally, on Izzet Charm... that's just such a terrible card. Avoid it at all costs.
This may apply to standard, but Standard does not equal modern. Izzet charm is very important for winning counter wars, countering cards like birthing pod and Liliana, or simply killing deathrite shamans. Saying Izzet charm is terrible really is just not true in any way shape or form.
Notion thief is a sideboard card in standard against sphinx's revelation decks. In modern, the only deck that plays revelation is UWR draw-go, and it only plays 2-3 of them. Outside that matchup, there are almost zero decks that play draw spells in modern that would make Notion Thief matter. Unless they start reprinting brainstorm, I don't think Notion thief is going to be a great card in here (although, you could definitely choose a worse card).
As for creature finishers, once again, you don't need them (especially if they're only fringe playable in standard), and you especially don't need threat diversity in a control deck. UWR decks would love you to pay 6 mana to cast an Aetherling while they slam down a cryptic command and kill you with a Geist. It's just not a smart strategy. In standard, you can get away with big finishers much easier since there are very few counterspell decks and the format is much slower. There are a lot more decks with counters in Modern than there are in Standard.
UUBBBRR
@magicman: No, not paper events, unfortunately - but I have played my fair share of MODO games. It is true though, that I have played more Standard than Modern lately, but I think I already said that.
@Blud Ale: I didn't in any shape or form indicate that the above mentioned cards were substitutes for Izzet Charm, and having read the text again, I fail to see how you would make that connection.
As far as the discussion about finisher go, well, I agree - Cruel Ultimatum is awesome. That is, when it sticks and when you have control. There was a time when Lingering Souls and Spectral Possession was a thing, and against those Thundermaw Hellkite was quite effective.
I have played games (against aggro) where they simply depleted my resources as I was forced to respond to their many threats. In those situations, the ultimatum wouldn't have done much of anything, and I would have preferred to draw Blue Sun's Zenith in order to find Damnation or other kill spells.
As far as Izzet Charm goes, I much prefer a hard counter. The Spell Pierce effect is too easily played around, the Shock is not potent enough (and too expensive), and the cycling is card disadvantage.
I'm still fitting in Mystical Teachings in my deck, but I don't see you guys are running it. What's the reason for that?
Thing about charm, is just about every deck that plays creatures in the meta plays creatures that have power 2 or less. When it comes to stabilizing against aggro, izzet charm isn't perfect, but it's better than having a hand full of mana leaks. If it's not your thing, then that's fine, but at the very least, you can't say it's terrible.
As for ultimatum, if you're facing a horde of creatures frequently that you can't deal with, it's probably a sign that you should re-evaluate your removal and other aspects of your deck. That's not to say that's necessarily the problem, but perhaps you could share what you're currently playing?
I'm also not sure why you would want zenith over ultimatum at 7. For 7 mana, blue sun's zenith draws you 4 cards, whereas cruel draws you 3, then grabs back a snapcaster, kills one of your opponent's creatures, and stabilizes your life total. If your opponent has to discard, that's just pudding on top. That's strictly superior to drawing 4 cards.
As for teachings, I just find it a bit too slow. It only starts to accrue card advantage after you've invested 10 mana into it. If the format had more draw-go mirrors where you're not forced to use your mana for removal or counters, it would be awesome, but that's just not the case in a midrange and aggressive format.
1 Blood Crypt
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Watery Grave
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
1 Dismember
2 Duress
3 Electrolyze
1 Far/Away
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Terminate
1 Batterskull
2 Counterflux
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Slagstorm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sowing Salt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Tribute to Hunger
You said izzet charm was just an awfully terrible card so I said that i would much rather draw that card then any you had mentioned. There was no connection made, I'm stating my opinion that izzet charm isn't such a bad card and that I'd much rather see it then the others.
UUBBBRR
Well, I like this list. No Izzet Charm for one, and you've got to love the miser Venser, Shaper Savant. It could be a price thing, but wouldn't Thoughtseize be better than Inquisition of Kozilek. Otherwise, this is a pretty tight list. I'm not so sure about the Slagstorm in the side-board. Is the extra damage worth sorcery speed, when compared to Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout?
Inquisition of Kozilek can be better than Thoughtseize if you're expecting more aggro in your meta than control/combo decks where the wider selection is better. That's why I play IoK over Thoughtseize at least. I do agree with you on the Slagstorm part though, Pyroclasm is almost always better. The single red mana is allows it be cast easier, and also faster its faster.
To me it seems Volcanic Fallout would be a more viable option seeing as how it's instant and for the price you get protection from counters.
UUBBBRR
Pyroclasm is good against a lot of decks other than Elves and Affinity, it's also good against Tokens, R/G Grull and some other decks I can't think of right now, also Fallout I don;t think I would be bringing in against Twin, but I think it's best used as a tool against UWR geist.
Most of our deck's play 2 Cruel Ultimatum, most of us came to the conclusion that it's stronger than any finisher we have available, so there's a play test option. I do like the Vendillion Clique though as in testing I've found it as a great way to use to distract control decks the turn before you cast cruel ultimatum. I found it stronger in the sideboard, how often has it been useful compared to you'd rather have it be something like maybe a Terminate or similair removal spell since I noticed you deck was short on such spells.
As for card draw some of us play Thoughtflare as our card draw choice as opposed to your choice in Think Twice. If you really want card draw/consistency you can also play serum visions which is a great turn one card draw.
Hopefully this has helped out a bit c:
Void is pretty bad. You would be better off playing persecute, which also sees very little play and is a bit slow.
I've never understood the love for think twice. The only time it's ever half-way decent is in the grindy control mirrors that are almost nonexistant in modern. The thing about think twice, is it requires a total of 5 mana to actually net you just 1 extra card. That's incredibly inefficient. Thoughtflare for 5 mana nets you +2 cards, and also is extremely effective for digging and filtering draws. If you just want the cantrip, you're better off playing peek than think twice.
I wouldn't discount Thoughtflare's power just because it isn't played much in standard. Standard is a much different format, and most of those decks are playing Sphinx's revelation instead anyway, and the cards play two similar, but very different roles.
Most of us have adopted Devour Flesh as a staple in our lists since it deals with Geist of Saint Traft, Bogles, while also being an effective kill spell against Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant. It even can handle Emrakul for a turn or two before they fetch it up again off Eye of Ugin. The variant that is posted in the OP works really well when you pair devour flesh with Augur of Bolas, since it gives you a way to gain 3 life at instant speed against decks like Burn.
Burn is a bad matchup, just how it is. The main problem isn't just the burn, but rather the fact that so many players sideboard in blood moon as well. Some of us play sun droplet, but that's really only good against burn and nothing else. I personally recommend the augur of bolas + devour flesh strategy as a small way that you can help out your burn matchup. Spellskites of course help here too as they also do against twin, infect and bogles. It's the most widely played SB card in modern for a pretty good reason.
I sort of agree. The main issue with burn, is it's just a bad matchup. The problem with spellskite against burn is that it won't block lava spike, boros charm, or bump in the night, all of which are relevant cards in the matchup. It also gives your burn opponent a target to make their inevitable searing blaze relevant.
Just curious why I haven't seen a ton of Dreadship Reefs? The card is great at accelerating your mana and letting you cast "early" Cruels (or in my case giant dragons and unkillable things)
just trying to determine which Jace is better to run Beleren or Architect?
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo: