Bring back anything you lose early to removal or combat, which is a nice form of card advantage for aggro decks. Think Hellspark Elementals, Mog Fanatics etc.
I can think of other cards I'd rather be playing in decks running those cards...like burn spells that won't just get blocked all day long after turn 4.
I'm sure there are more combos and interactions I'm simply missing. Though any pain land basically enables it, much like Grove of the Burnwillows enabled punishing fire.
Big difference here. With BitWC, you can only punish yourself so much before you've just helped your opponent kill you. Grove decks gave the opponent life, which while slowing down your ability to win, didn't actively help the opponent win.
Edit: Oh and you want something for your stupid discard deck? Dryad Arbor comes back with BitWC, and then you can use it to recast Raven's Crime or whatever retrace spell you want.
You mistake me for one of the people who likes RoN. I don't. I hate them both equally...just like the rest of the T8. I'm offended that anyone thinks ANY of the T8 choices are worth playing.
Edit: The difference here is that between these two cards, RoN was at least INTERESTING where BitWC was BORING.
Learn from the movie jaws... less is more. Complex cards do not make cards good. Vanish into memory is complex and terrible. Crucible of worlds is simple and awesome. In this respect blood in the watering can was simple and potentially awesome while revenge of necromancy is complex and terrible.
Just as complexity doesn't automatically make a card better, it doesn't automatically make a card worse.
Again I'm not mad at the players who voted for this garbage as that is pretty par for the course. I'm mad it was an option to begin with. You can't educate the masses on the subject.... if anything this thread is proof that bad players will simply refuse to learn from better ones (as made obvious by their reluctance to choose the more powerful card in stead of the junk rare fodder and still ignore the voices of wisdom) and vote against "spikes" as they label us because they out number us and its one of they few opportunities they have to win as a casual crowd.
All you seem to care about is the card's power level. Why do you think that's the only thing worth considering?
And your version of YMTC is incredibly self-centered. If you can't see the obvious flaw in choosing cards for a small audience and telling everyone else "Hey, none of these cards are for you, but just choose the one that you like the most even if you're not passionate about it" then you're missing the point of YMTC entirely.
I don't understand the people that are complaining this is just another Megrim when all they seemed to want was just Oversold Cemetery 2.0. At least this card, if given a proper CMC and support could fuel a new deck type standard hasn't had in a while rather than just another generic B/X creature deck. Cause, you know, standard is certainly hurting for more creature based decks...:rolleyes:
I don't understand the people that are complaining this is just another Megrim when all they seemed to want was just Oversold Cemetery 2.0. At least this card, if given a proper CMC and support could fuel a new deck type standard hasn't had in a while rather than just another generic B/X creature deck. Cause, you know, standard is certainly hurting for more creature based decks...:rolleyes:
Blood in the Watering Can was much better than Oversold Cemetery.
You can't even compare the two in terms of serious, competitive applications in a tournament setting.
What creatures are you dumping into your yard in the first 2-3 turns that you have the mana to get back, re-cast, have them die, and get them back again?
Is BitWC better than Oversold? Yes. Would it have been a tournament staple...no. Would it see play in some sideboards? Probably. Get over it. The card lost. Recurring creatures from graveyard to hand just isn't a powerful enough ability to see any real competitive play. MOST decks would probably rather play a sorcery like Unburial Rites to dump 2 creatures directly into play than play an enchantment to get back their bomb creatures and play them 3 turns later when they have the mana to hard cast them.
- Vexing Devil with BitWC becomes recurring 4 damage or a 4/3 for R guaranteed.
- Shriekmaw with BitWC becomes a two-mana The Abyss that only affects your opponent.
- Street Wraith with BitWC becomes a better draw engine than Life from the Loam + cycling lands.
Any creature in the graveyard is better if you can bring it back later in the game. BitWC might not be churning away early in the game, but as long as you get to the mid-game and beyond, it will guarantee that you win the game through a mountain of card advantage. You do understand the concept of card advantage, right?
Just face it, BitWC isn't as good as you want it to be.
I could proxy this up, play it with you on a program like Cockatrice, and you'd see how good it is. At 3 mana or less, it would have been a tournament staple in multiple formats.
Adding: "Whenever a player discards a card, that player discards a card at random instead."
or
Adding "When Revenge of Necromancy enters the battlefield, target player discard ? cards."
Could put both on there if they want the CMC to be high, but if they kept the CMC to 1-2 while adding the random clause that could make the card decent.
I don't understand the people that are complaining this is just another Megrim when all they seemed to want was just Oversold Cemetery 2.0. At least this card, if given a proper CMC and support could fuel a new deck type standard hasn't had in a while rather than just another generic B/X creature deck. Cause, you know, standard is certainly hurting for more creature based decks...:rolleyes:
Oversold Cemetery is generally well liked, and there is nothing currently in modern that compares to it. I believe people were okay with a copy effect(I would have preferred BitWC to beat RoN by a mile, but I was hoping for consuming contract actually, a completely NEW effect) that copies a card that did a lot, showed up in competitive play, shows up in a ton of EDH decks, and doesn't have a mirror of itself in 10 freaking years.
Those same people aren't going to be okay with a card to be counter-intuitive to it's own design. RoN does NOT work in discard, it may work to a very SAD level if it is costed cheaply enough, but the point of discard is to leave your opponent with no cards. Once you hit this brick, RoN shuts off.
It's not even that the naysayers are necessarily against discard. I currently run a discard heavy deck in standard with Duress, Rakdos' Return, and Liliana of the Veil, and I wouldn't want to run this since it turns itself off, at best it could be seen as a sb option against control decks running sphinx's revelation, but even then it does nothing without itself, and your just hoping the control player will let you set this up for your rakdos' return. It's unlikely to happen, but you probably just won if you get it.
I don't really understand the comparison to Megrim. The effects are superior compared to just flat out damage.
The alternative card wouldn't probably see much play. Falls apart against hate and people tend to like hate on graveyards.
It's not about whether the effects are superior, which your correct, every one of them is superior...well except for the mana one since it becomes very conditional to whether or not it's good, but it can definitely be more explosive then flat damage. The issue is it has Megrim's weakness of turning off once you succeed in dumping your opponents hand. Against the majority of decks, they will now play things, and not have any hand. Because of this, it's pretty hard to consistently play this for benefit. There are decks that do have the chance through mana denial combined with some discard, which is most often a counter-intuitive strategy since mana denial stops them from playing spells, so you shouldn't be worrying about there hand at this point. The only reasonable card that has been suggested that I'VE seen(and in my opinion) was Smallpox, and then I'd simply state that I'd rather have something else in the spot for the next reason.
Not only does it have Megrim's conditional nature, but it then also has a random effect after that, since you don't know what your opponent is going to give you upon discard. This can be routed a bit with things like duress, or thoughtsieze, but then your still basing your decks strategy over hopes of what your opponent is playing, since you still don't know what kind of hand your opponent is looking to keep. This bodes badly for any card, for any deck since you now have TWO random elements at effect, the fact that they need cards for you to force them to discard, and the fact that the effect itself is random. I guess the argument can be made that this might lead to a cheaper CMC, but that still seems like bad grounds to vote it in over other cards, with rarer effects like BitWC, and Consuming Contract.
If you want a good discard finisher, you need to look for something like The Rack, or Lavaborn Muse. I've even stated that I personally would have been happy to see some variant on things like that that does something other than damage. I'm NOT okay with a "megrim" that will only do these things conditionally, often being a dead card since your not always going to get it turn 2 no matter what the CMC.
If it were to be printed at 2 cmc the returns for mana invested are rather nice even often random. Don't think you should go overboard with the discard with the card, but look for repeatable sources and treat the card as an engine.
Make the cost 3 and merge it with thoughtseize ETB effect and i would most definitely play it then without a doubt. Would make it easier to break than the 1 or 2 CMC bland version.
Agreed, but that isn't the card we had voted in, and I personally think wizards R & D changing it's rules text is wishful thinking and unlikely. I would not state that there is no place for it, simply that the space for it, even casually, is amazingly narrow compared to the other options.
This narrowness on a card we all voted for is frustrating, especially when some of the more unique cards were simply dismissed. I mean people didn't even perceive that Consuming Contract could be gotten rid of or bounced by you instead of losing. It just went over peoples heads. Similarly, I truly think a lot of people aren't going to get my point of conditional issues with this card until they play with it, which is going to make this a forgotten card.
I know a lot of defenders of this card have thought of the detractors as angry, when confused and frustrated, followed by annoyed and frustrated is the actuality. More than one poster has said something to the effect of being annoyed that people "fell for" a "skill tester". This is slang used by competitive players to describe a card no one plays after a few weeks even though it looks amazing, because the card was designed to only LOOK amazing. That is something R & D actually does, and it's a good thing for them to do because it teaches card evaluation over time, and puts variety into play.
An example of what the detractors are seeing is Megrim, but it's far from the only one. In the current standard someone might refer to Alms Beast as a skill tester. It's not at all hard to see where Alms Beast shines, since all you have to do is find a way for him to have evasion, and you have payed 4 for a 6/6 with no downsides, however, trying to give it evasion is the issue. In the same meta are cards that have better evasion all by themselves, and you don't really have ANY amazing evasion in it's colors, with maybe your best bet being Gift of Orzhova and that is, of course, questionable to run with.
Megrim was a skill tester, because it looked like a card that allows you to win with a strategy that leaves your opponent with no spells to play. When I first saw megrim(I started in tempest so...) that is exactly what I thought, right up until I got beat by a goblin deck that just played their spells. My friend had tried to explain it's downsides to me, comparing it to the rack, and I simply didn't listen, so enamored with my ability to do damage while stopping my opponents deck in it's tracks. My Megrim deck was badly built, and I was a very new player, but Megrim taught me a lot about card evaluation, and it's issue had nothing to do with it being unique or not.
Thus, yes, this cards different values are way over the top, but it's a random effect that only goes off in conditional events. It might be okay in a sideboard against control decks which will want to have card draw into control to close with, but my tabletop magic friends don't even play with sideboards. If your tabletop does, cool, that is what you can count on this card doing. When an aggresive deck can be down to no cards by turn 6(and that isn't even an impressively aggresive hand), then they will be down to no cards by turn 4 against a deck using discard, even light discard, because they aren't going to stop playing their spells when you make them discard but just the opposite.
To be fair this is much better than Megrim.
Megrim is conditional burn spell with horrible mana-to-damage ratio and burn spells do nothing unless you have enough to deal 20.
Revenge gives you real advantage no matter what you hit. The problem is that it does nothing by itself and those kind of cards are only playable in combo decks. So unless someone manages to combo this off with windfall-like effects then it's only possible use is hoser to something like dredge.
Just face it, BitWC isn't as good as you want it to be.
You don't even need to build around it. It plays itself.
For example Jund playing tusks and huntmasters with BiTWC in play. You hit me - I get back my stuff and regain lost life, thank you. Also all shocklands that I draw are now free raisedeads.
It isn't a very good hoser against dredge, because dredge won't be discarding except on the first or maybe the second turn (LED dredge, that is). Can you get RoN out before that?
If RoN costs 3 or more, it'll be too slow against dredge.
If RoN costs 2 mana, why not play rest in peace?
If RoN costs 1 mana, why not play relic of progenitus?
If RoN costs 0 mana, why not play tormod's crypt?
If RoN has a leyline ability, why not play leyline of the void?
While net decking isn't the end all be all, why cripple yourself from having access to net decks altogether if not to prove a point to someone else?
Because building is a deck from scratch is fun? You don't have to be a bad player to enjoy building an original deck rather than tune a netdeck for your metagame - for some people, it's more fun than winning. I, personally, would rather go 2-2 at an FNM with an original deck than 4-0 with something I just grabbed off the internet.
(I realize, of course, that "fun" is a term that's foreign to many players on these forums)
Suddenly mill is way too good even if the card cost 6 mana because you could probably kill them when you untap.
That being said, I did not vote for this card at any step because I thought it sucked. Honestly I think it won because of the name, because its "catchy". It isn't the first time the YTMC has been "ruined" by voting. Forgotten Ancient had different mana costs and P/T's put up to a vote. The two most popular ones were 1GG for an 0/2 and 3G for an 0/3. Competitive players wanted the 1GG 0/2. The 4 mana version won, and thus people whined about it. And to be blunt: Forgotten Ancient is not a good card competitively. I wouldn't call it a bad card, but its nothing special. Vanish into Memory isn't a good card competitively either but the way it was designed killed YTMC because of the way they went about it. Nobody ended up happy with the card. In fact if it wasn't for Coldsnap allowing the voted on art to "blend" in with the setting, who knows when the card would have seen print. Because it had to be printed with that art. While the card ended up as a marginal removal spell, it isn't bad.
Crucible of Worlds is a rare card that appealed to just about everybody.
This... well it clearly appealed to somebody. No competitive player will ever touch this or let this touch their trade binders. This is a build around card, and I guess it makes casuals happy (the vast majority of wizards market), but it makes it feel like the process was a complete waste of time to competitive players. I'm pretty sure the pro's who were clamoring for enchantment over land wish they went with land now, because with Land you could get something that would possibly appeal to everybody (and at worst marginally playable). A land has to be inherently bad for people to hate it.
Every You Make The Card has been reprinted at least once, yes even Vanish into Memory saw a reprint in a Duel Deck. I'm inclined to think that this new YMTC will never see the light of day again. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other designs pop up however. Xantid Swarm and Double Strike were both proposed ideas that came from the 1st You Make The Card. Double Strike came out before Forgotten Ancient and Xantid Swarm appeared in the same set as Forgotten Ancient.
Don't dispair, some of the other popular designs will reappear again. I doubt it will be the quick turnaround of the 1st YMTC, but I am sure it will happen. That is the only positive thing I can take away from this YMTC, because the winner is disappointing. But hey, at least I can .03 ticket for YMTC once it comes out on MODO since I'll be sure to open like 6 of them.
Hi, my name is Spike. I play competitive Magic in the tournament scene and play for only one reason... to win. I don't care about the creative aspects of the game and have become so obsessed with streamlining the power of my cards and decks that I find it impossible to wrap my head around the idea that some other players of this game may play for reasons different from my own. As far as I'm concerned, these "casual" players, as they call themselves, are a hinderance to my enjoyment of the game. Every damn set that comes out, there is some overcosted red enchantment that does nothing remotely useful taking up the slot of what could be a tournament worthy card for MY deck. It's infuriating. These casual players suck at this game... I mean, they are really, really bad at Magic. Because they enjoy playing with inferior cards, they are themselves inferior to me. Their opinions and desires do not matter, yet WotC seems to insist that they do. It's not like these casual players spend money on the game. I mean, I'm the one that plays with cards worth $60... my deck costs as much as a casual player spends on rent fer Christ's sake. Sure, I bought those cards from the secondary market, but I'm sure Wizards sees most of that money. The point I'm trying to make is that if someone doesn't hold the same values as me, in life or in a card game, they are not as important as me and their opinions are not as important as mine and they should not be respected or acknowledged as holding any type of value in the Magic community. I, Spike, and all my contemporaries (also all named Spike, if you would believe that) are all that should matter because everyone else sucks at card evaluation, deck building and Magic in general. Spike RULES!!!!
Hi, my name is Spike. I play competitive Magic in the tournament scene and play for only one reason... to win. I don't care about the creative aspects of the game and have become so obsessed with streamlining the power of my cards and decks that I find it impossible to wrap my head around the idea that some other players of this game may play for reasons different from my own. As far as I'm concerned, these "casual" players, as they call themselves, are a hinderance to my enjoyment of the game. Every damn set that comes out, there is some overcosted red enchantment that does nothing remotely useful taking up the slot of what could be a tournament worthy card for MY deck. It's infuriating. These casual players suck at this game... I mean, they are really, really bad at Magic. Because they enjoy playing with inferior cards, they are themselves inferior to me. Their opinions and desires do not matter, yet WotC seems to insist that they do. It's not like these casual players spend money on the game. I mean, I'm the one that plays with cards worth $60... my deck costs as much as a casual player spends on rent fer Christ's sake. Sure, I bought those cards from the secondary market, but I'm sure Wizards sees most of that money. The point I'm trying to make is that if someone doesn't hold the same values as me, in life or in a card game, they are not as important as me and their opinions are not as important as mine and they should not be respected or acknowledged as holding any type of value in the Magic community. I, Spike, and all my contemporaries (also all named Spike, if you would believe that) are all that should matter because everyone else sucks at card evaluation, deck building and Magic in general. Spike RULES!!!!
I read that last bit like the billy Madison quote. O'Doyle rules!
Hi, my name is Spike. I play competitive Magic in the tournament scene and play for only one reason... to win. I don't care about the creative aspects of the game and have become so obsessed with streamlining the power of my cards and decks that I find it impossible to wrap my head around the idea that some other players of this game may play for reasons different from my own. As far as I'm concerned, these "casual" players, as they call themselves, are a hinderance to my enjoyment of the game. Every damn set that comes out, there is some overcosted red enchantment that does nothing remotely useful taking up the slot of what could be a tournament worthy card for MY deck. It's infuriating. These casual players suck at this game... I mean, they are really, really bad at Magic. Because they enjoy playing with inferior cards, they are themselves inferior to me. Their opinions and desires do not matter, yet WotC seems to insist that they do. It's not like these casual players spend money on the game. I mean, I'm the one that plays with cards worth $60... my deck costs as much as a casual player spends on rent fer Christ's sake. Sure, I bought those cards from the secondary market, but I'm sure Wizards sees most of that money. The point I'm trying to make is that if someone doesn't hold the same values as me, in life or in a card game, they are not as important as me and their opinions are not as important as mine and they should not be respected or acknowledged as holding any type of value in the Magic community. I, Spike, and all my contemporaries (also all named Spike, if you would believe that) are all that should matter because everyone else sucks at card evaluation, deck building and Magic in general. Spike RULES!!!!
Yes, that is literally exactly what we are all like. Every single spike and person who doesn't like this card is a hateful person and we do all believe that everybody else deserves no respect is worthless. We also all spend as much money as we can. Turns out that's the trick to the game. Shuffling up and playing is a formality, but we really could just ask one another how much our deck costs and scoop to the other person.
Holy crap this is the biggest strawman I've ever seen.
For one, Wizards does appreciate secondary market sales. They won't see the money themselves, but Magic being profitable enough that stores continue to carry it is good for them. Even if I don't open something from a pack, the cards I buy originally came from one. By buying these I am justifying continued pack opening.
I don't know where you're getting this flippant view that we think other people's opinions are invalid. I don't like RoN because it is narrow and explores design space we already have in a wordier way. I think that BitWC can go into more decks and hits more demographics. This has nothing to do with power level (mana cost is a huge part of that and we don't know what either would be).
BitWC could be played in a lot of ways whereas RoN requires me to play a deck with discard or wheel effects. (BitWC has me play decks that play creatures and can potentially lose life at some point in the game. That's a restriction too, but a lot more lenient of one). I want to play with the YMTC. That's supposed to be the fun part of this whole thing. I'm allowed to dislike a card that I'll never get to play because it was voted in over a card that I think has broader applications
These accusations of people talking down to RoN voters are grossly exaggerated. Your card won, stop playing the victim
Suddenly mill is way too good even if the card cost 6 mana because you could probably kill them when you untap.
That being said, I did not vote for this card at any step because I thought it sucked. Honestly I think it won because of the name, because its "catchy". It isn't the first time the YTMC has been "ruined" by voting. Forgotten Ancient had different mana costs and P/T's put up to a vote. The two most popular ones were 1GG for an 0/2 and 3G for an 0/3. Competitive players wanted the 1GG 0/2. The 4 mana version won, and thus people whined about it. And to be blunt: Forgotten Ancient is not a good card competitively. I wouldn't call it a bad card, but its nothing special. Vanish into Memory isn't a good card competitively either but the way it was designed killed YTMC because of the way they went about it. Nobody ended up happy with the card. In fact if it wasn't for Coldsnap allowing the voted on art to "blend" in with the setting, who knows when the card would have seen print. Because it had to be printed with that art. While the card ended up as a marginal removal spell, it isn't bad.
Crucible of Worlds is a rare card that appealed to just about everybody.
This... well it clearly appealed to somebody. No competitive player will ever touch this or let this touch their trade binders. This is a build around card, and I guess it makes casuals happy (the vast majority of wizards market), but it makes it feel like the process was a complete waste of time to competitive players. I'm pretty sure the pro's who were clamoring for enchantment over land wish they went with land now, because with Land you could get something that would possibly appeal to everybody (and at worst marginally playable). A land has to be inherently bad for people to hate it.
Every You Make The Card has been reprinted at least once, yes even Vanish into Memory saw a reprint in a Duel Deck. I'm inclined to think that this new YMTC will never see the light of day again. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other designs pop up however. Xantid Swarm and Double Strike were both proposed ideas that came from the 1st You Make The Card. Double Strike came out before Forgotten Ancient and Xantid Swarm appeared in the same set as Forgotten Ancient.
Don't dispair, some of the other popular designs will reappear again. I doubt it will be the quick turnaround of the 1st YMTC, but I am sure it will happen. That is the only positive thing I can take away from this YMTC, because the winner is disappointing. But hey, at least I can .03 ticket for YMTC once it comes out on MODO since I'll be sure to open like 6 of them.
I appreciate what you're doing here, but the problem is your largely wrong about the detractors. Every time someone calls a card unplayable, someone is there to call that person a spike, and tell them they don't like fun, and that they just want to win.
Well, first off, Forgotten Ancient is actually a pretty good card, and one that saw play in competitive magic in standard. It would still be seeing play at the 1GG cost, so that was the case, but I wouldn't have been upset over a one mana difference personally. We haven't even reached that step, I'll note. We have not even gotten to mana cost and already people are convinced that this is pretty not good.
Forgotten Ancient is also amazing in EDH, and you know what EDH deck he's simply amazing in? Well...any EDH deck playing green. Any one of them. He comes down and people give him counters or do something to kill him.
Similarly, I usually play Vanish into Memory in EDH, because it's safe to assume someone will do something with tokens, and even against a 2/2 it's 2 drawn cards and all upsides. Otherwise you just have to hit something with better power than toughness, and you have card advantage and evasion. It's 4 mana cost will never make it playable anywhere else, but it's effect is unique and kind of awesome, because it has many varied interactions.
Hi, my name is Spike. I play competitive Magic in the tournament scene and play for only one reason... to win. I don't care about the creative aspects of the game and have become so obsessed with streamlining the power of my cards and decks that I find it impossible to wrap my head around the idea that some other players of this game may play for reasons different from my own. As far as I'm concerned, these "casual" players, as they call themselves, are a hinderance to my enjoyment of the game. Every damn set that comes out, there is some overcosted red enchantment that does nothing remotely useful taking up the slot of what could be a tournament worthy card for MY deck. It's infuriating. These casual players suck at this game... I mean, they are really, really bad at Magic. Because they enjoy playing with inferior cards, they are themselves inferior to me. Their opinions and desires do not matter, yet WotC seems to insist that they do. It's not like these casual players spend money on the game. I mean, I'm the one that plays with cards worth $60... my deck costs as much as a casual player spends on rent fer Christ's sake. Sure, I bought those cards from the secondary market, but I'm sure Wizards sees most of that money. The point I'm trying to make is that if someone doesn't hold the same values as me, in life or in a card game, they are not as important as me and their opinions are not as important as mine and they should not be respected or acknowledged as holding any type of value in the Magic community. I, Spike, and all my contemporaries (also all named Spike, if you would believe that) are all that should matter because everyone else sucks at card evaluation, deck building and Magic in general. Spike RULES!!!!
Before I get to my main point, I wanted to highlight this. I'm not going to put this player, who has decided to classify me as a spike, which is only half true, down. I have not actually put down ANY players wanting to play this card, and feel for their point of view that I once shared with a similar card. I enjoy competitive interaction, but more than that, I enjoy unique expression of deck building, and card interaction. That puts me squarely in the Johnny boat, and I'm happy to be a Johnny. I usually am not playing a net deck, and if I am, I won't be next week. I'm only playing the netdeck to understand it's interactions so that I can build something that beats it. Piloting a deck often gives you a good sense for it's strengths and weaknesses.
That being said, this wall of text is insulting when almost no one is insulting casual players. I enjoy EDH, and part of the fun of EDH is 3 other players trying to kill you. It's not a format your going to win every game of, and that is accepted if it's something you get into. I also have a pauper deck, and a couple of tribal decks for those formats, and only a few of my friends play tribal anyway, a style I truly enjoy. I really love my tribal leeches deck.
So here's the thing. RoN DOES see a minute of play in EDH. It goes into a specific deck with a very specific general and it's arguably not the greatest in that deck. If it costs 1 mana, then that is the best case scenario, and may allow it to branch into VERY FRINGE play somewhere else, and that includes just kitchen table casual. I personally have 3 Lavaborn Muses from picking up Tibalt vs. Sorin. I picked up 3 Tibalt vs. Sorin to get the rest of my Tibalt planeswalker card playset, while also picking up sweet art for Lingering Souls, and Sorin too. I now have a tibalt madness deck, that probably can't be called good, but I at least find fun, because I like building around the occasional terrible card(and Tibalt is just terrible.)
RoN works in discard. That is it, you can make the "light discard" argument, and that's fine, I'll let you, and I personally will also tell you that is the BEST kind of discard since you're focus in such a deck will change once your opponent starts top decking. The problem is what it does there:
Against a goblin deck, assuming RoN costs 1:
I go first with my discard, I lay a swamp and drop RoN.
He goes next and drops a mountain and a...what will I give him, do we want budget cards? Lets make this Budget goblins, which means no Goblin Lackey here. Okay, we'll go with Mogg Fanatic.
I hymn to tourach them, after laying a second swamp, and they give up a land, and a gob(doesn't matter which). I now have 2 mana and a 2/2. Best case scenario I just god drawed and I hymn again. If I do, I win, that play will happen once in a blue moon, and if your okay with losing 12 times to get to this reaction, then cool. There is a decent chance I don't have a lot else to drop, but a more fair drop might be Doom Blade, wanting to use my resource, I use it to blow up there guy, in this case I decided to use my mana and you might not, but this might showcase why the land is the most terrible impact of the card with no real interaction past the turn the land is discarded. Thus they are forced to sac the fanatic and deal 1 to me. I'm okay with that because I am now attacking into a nothing field.
They now drop Sparksmith and pass, they have currently 4 cards in hand, and still have a creature, albeit one that doesn't dodge my 2/2 zombie. I am still happy, so I drop blakmail and hit their goblin grenade, draw a card, putting me at 4 cards with my third land drop. I use the other 2 mana to drop diabolic edict getting rid of sparksmith, and attack for 2. I'm in a very good position. I have a creature, I have drawn some cards, and now i'm in the lead lifewise with 19 to 18. They have 2 cards, I have 4.
They draw to 3, lay a land, shock my creature, and plays ember hauler. They are now at no cards.
I draw up to 5, lay my land, and diabolic edict again. I have some discard, and some kill spells, but nothing significant to do to this field.
They draw, and lay a mountain.
I draw, miss a land drop and lay Abyssal Nightstalker.
They draw, and play a land
I draw, am still at 4 cards, they still have no creature, so I attack with my guy. 2 damage and they have no cards. I am at 19, and they are at 16. They are also rather upset at this point, and not really having fun. Even if they win they don't want to play my deck again, because look at this, this isn't fun! But I digress, they draw, and play pyrotechnics. Dealing 2 to the nightstalker, and 2 to me. I am now at 17, and they are at 16.
I draw, drop a land, and still have two discard spells, and a kill spell. With no creatures on the field, and no cards in my opponents hand, I'm forced to do nothing.
They draw, and finally do something bigger. They play Siege-Gang Commander, and now have 4 creatures, no cards in hand.
I draw, lay a land, and play my last kill spell to get rid of siege-gang commander. I could play damnation now, but they also could have had an expensive legacy gobs deck, and I assure you, you would be hurting a lot more in that situation. This is just tabletop magic. Fun game so far, right?
Damnation is a 30 dollar card.
They have 3 tokens, and they draw, and drop Krenko, Mob Boss. Man, wish I could utilize that RoN right about now. They then hit me for 3 with their tokens. I'm at 14, and they are at 16. I'm also realizing just how dead my discard strategy is right now. If I had slided into red, and had lavaborn muse, I'd at least be leading in life, and could have burn instead of direct kill cards. I could have RoN in there too, but it would be doing just as much work as it is here.
I draw, lay a land.
They tap krenko for 6 tokens, and then attack for 3 more, putting me at 11, and they are at 16. They also burn my face with a lava spike. I'm now at 8.
I draw, and finally get another creature. Nyxathid! YAY! I lay it, I now have a 7/7.
They draw, they hold their card and tap krenko to go to 12 tokens. They attack for 6, I block one and take 5. They then play their Fireball to my face for game.
I didn't give them any money or particularly super cards. The most expensive card they played was Krenko, which they probably got from a starter deck. I only left 2 dead cards in your dedicated RoN deck, and I don't feel that is unfair. What lost the game was the lack of RoN doing much. I even granted alternate win conditions with Nyxathid, and would assume you could run Myojin of Night's Reach which would largely not matter in the above scenario, as it would have remained one of your dead cards, and would not have altered the end of the game.
I'm not willing to walk through a control game, but needless to say, control won't counter the RoN, but WILL counter your discard as long as RoN remains on the field, effectively leaving you with a dead card that is doing nothing(which I don't find fun whether or not I lose, I find dead cards that do nothing to be frustrating and boring, go figure.) unless you sneak your discard past their counters. If you do, you better have done so with some nasty discard, because frankly, none of the options on RoN give a long enough impact to effectively deal with any decent control deck with counterspells.
A legacy gobs deck is one of the cheapest to put together, with the only money really being Goblin Lackey and Goblin Piledriver, other than that, you can spend money on Aether Vial, Rishadan Port, and Wasteland all of which would have altered things heavily if dropped early. You can also sink money into legacy gobs with some dual and fetch lands.
This deck would never be fun, because the point of it is to get your opponent down to almost nothing in the play department. There is almost no situation where that is fun, and is often not fun for either player for the above stated reasons.
In EDH this is nowhere near as bad, but other than Nath decks, no one gets to play this in EDH, because any other general dipping into black has better things to do, and is not as centered around discard. Even Nath has to think awhile about RoN because he has a similar ability attached to him that doesn't cost him a card slot. There are Nath decks that won't play this in EDH.
BitWC on the other hand would see play in Karador, Ghost Chieftain right off the bat. It would also see play in Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Endrek Sar, Master Breeder, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Korlash, Heir to Blackblade, and Marrow-Gnawer just to name a few, since it gives you options other than the command zone for all these guys who center their decks around themselves, or sac effects, or both. Hell, BitWC sees play in any of these decks even at a ridiculous mana cost like 5 to 6 CMC. It's still easy to consider, even though it's ridiculous to assume BitWC would cost that much when any of it's comparisons(Haunted Crossroads, Phyrexian Reclamation, or Oversold Cemetery) don't cost anything near that. 4 is a reasonable explanation for such a spell, and at rare 3 is likely. With RoN I can't say that, even at rare this might not get the 1CMC sweet spot which still leaves it a questionable play, even for fun, at best.
It's about a grindy strategy card that doesn't work that well in it's own strategy. I'm not going to say it's as bad as Megrim, and that was never the question, although, yes, at least I can count on what Megrim will do for me, I can't do that with this guy. Despite that, yes, this has potential for something more explosive at the cost of anything resembling structure to it's use, or interaction with other cards.
I appreciate what you're doing here, but the problem is your largely wrong about the detractors. Every time someone calls a card unplayable, someone is there to call that person a spike, and tell them they don't like fun, and that they just want to win.
Well, first off, Forgotten Ancient is actually a pretty good card, and one that saw play in competitive magic in standard. It would still be seeing play at the 1GG cost, so that was the case, but I wouldn't have been upset over a one mana difference personally. We haven't even reached that step, I'll note. We have not even gotten to mana cost and already people are convinced that this is pretty not good.
Forgotten Ancient is also amazing in EDH, and you know what EDH deck he's simply amazing in? Well...any EDH deck playing green. Any one of them. He comes down and people give him counters or do something to kill him.
Similarly, I usually play Vanish into Memory in EDH, because it's safe to assume someone will do something with tokens, and even against a 2/2 it's 2 drawn cards and all upsides. Otherwise you just have to hit something with better power than toughness, and you have card advantage and evasion. It's 4 mana cost will never make it playable anywhere else, but it's effect is unique and kind of awesome, because it has many varied interactions.
Enlighten me as to exactly what competitive deck Forgotten Ancient saw play in during standard. Because the decks I remember from that era when it was legal in Standard that were competitive included Astral Slide, Mirari's Wake, Psychatog, Madness, Goblins, Mono White Control, Urza-Tron, U/W control, Broodstar Affinity, Ravager Affinity, Tooth and Nail, Elf and Nail, Krark-Clan Iron Works Combo, Big Red, etc. I might be missing a few, however the fact is that Forgotten Ancient saw no competitive play in standard, no competitive play in extended and sees no competitive play in legacy formats. I'm not saying the card is bad, it would most certainly be better as a 1GG 0/2, but the card itself was created at a time where EDH did not exist. So this particular card's creation was supposed to be about making the best card possible because otherwise you couldn't play it. While it is certainly an okay rare that isn't the total defination of bulk, it was just too expensive in mana cost and outclassed by the other decks that were out at the time. In all honesty, the three mana version would have most likely seen no play either in standard due to the presence of Astral Slide and then the introduction of Mirrodin Block, who's cards far outclassed it.
Yes, Forgotten Ancient is really good in EDH, which is a good thing I suppose as it has given the card a second lease on life when it never had a first.
Yeah Vanish into Memory isn't sexy like Forgotten Ancient and Crucible of Worlds can be, but it is technically an exercise in what designers have to do to fill slots and balance game play at lower rarities for limited. Yes I didn't call the card bad, but nobody ended up happy with it because it wasn't "sexy". It was rather bland, so much so it ended up as an Uncommon.
My little rant wasn't directed at anyone in this thread. It was actually directed at someone on the Wizards homepage forums (which I got suspended from, probably due to this person, user name Shadowchu/Shadowdeux, reporting me for calling them out for being exactly what I described in my last post in this thread). If someone here thought I was referencing them, it is because they self-identify with being a Spike. I know not all Spikes aren't this kind of Spike (like not all Christians blow up abortion clinics), but my post was directed at the fanatical Spikes that throw insults at anyone that doesn't fit their version of what a Magic player should be. I'm just sick of people calling this card bad because: a) we don't yet know the final effect and b) we don't yet know the cost. On top of that, good and bad are relative terms. So is "fun". So to the people claiming that a vast majority of Magic players are dumb, bad at the game and didn't know what they were doing, my last post is for you. If you don't like the outcome, but refrain from insulting people, then don't get all butt hurt, because it wasn't directed at you. I also know that the secondary market is important. I was being a bit poetic with that one, as many Spikes have been trashing the inclusion of cards like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV in Modern Masters because it sucks in Modern even though it IS legal in the format and is a highly sought after and relatively expensive card.
this is probably going to be a tough card to play with, as WOtC might need to make instant speed discard...
it should go more like t1, creature, pass. t2, RoN, thoughtseize or something like that.
At twice the life cost per activation and requiring two cards instead of 1. Sounds amazing.
I can think of other cards I'd rather be playing in decks running those cards...like burn spells that won't just get blocked all day long after turn 4.
Big difference here. With BitWC, you can only punish yourself so much before you've just helped your opponent kill you. Grove decks gave the opponent life, which while slowing down your ability to win, didn't actively help the opponent win.
You mistake me for one of the people who likes RoN. I don't. I hate them both equally...just like the rest of the T8. I'm offended that anyone thinks ANY of the T8 choices are worth playing.
Edit: The difference here is that between these two cards, RoN was at least INTERESTING where BitWC was BORING.
Just as complexity doesn't automatically make a card better, it doesn't automatically make a card worse.
All you seem to care about is the card's power level. Why do you think that's the only thing worth considering?
And your version of YMTC is incredibly self-centered. If you can't see the obvious flaw in choosing cards for a small audience and telling everyone else "Hey, none of these cards are for you, but just choose the one that you like the most even if you're not passionate about it" then you're missing the point of YMTC entirely.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Just like YMTC.
Blood in the Watering Can was much better than Oversold Cemetery.
You can't even compare the two in terms of serious, competitive applications in a tournament setting.
- Vexing Devil with BitWC becomes recurring 4 damage or a 4/3 for R guaranteed.
- Shriekmaw with BitWC becomes a two-mana The Abyss that only affects your opponent.
- Street Wraith with BitWC becomes a better draw engine than Life from the Loam + cycling lands.
Any creature in the graveyard is better if you can bring it back later in the game. BitWC might not be churning away early in the game, but as long as you get to the mid-game and beyond, it will guarantee that you win the game through a mountain of card advantage. You do understand the concept of card advantage, right?
I could proxy this up, play it with you on a program like Cockatrice, and you'd see how good it is. At 3 mana or less, it would have been a tournament staple in multiple formats.
Adding: "Whenever a player discards a card, that player discards a card at random instead."
or
Adding "When Revenge of Necromancy enters the battlefield, target player discard ? cards."
Could put both on there if they want the CMC to be high, but if they kept the CMC to 1-2 while adding the random clause that could make the card decent.
WUBRGReaper KingGRBUW 5c Blink [Less Competitive]
WBEvershrikeBW Orzhov Enchantments [Less Competitive]
GIwamori of the Open FistG Green Smash [Less Competitive]
RGWUInk-Treader NephilimUWGR Draw Too Many Cards [More Competitive]
URJhoira of the GhituRU Izzet Stax [More Competitive]
URGRiku of Two ReflectionsGRU Ceta Dredge [More Competitive]
Modern
RUGBNightshiftBGUR Like Scapeshift but bad
Oversold Cemetery is generally well liked, and there is nothing currently in modern that compares to it. I believe people were okay with a copy effect(I would have preferred BitWC to beat RoN by a mile, but I was hoping for consuming contract actually, a completely NEW effect) that copies a card that did a lot, showed up in competitive play, shows up in a ton of EDH decks, and doesn't have a mirror of itself in 10 freaking years.
Those same people aren't going to be okay with a card to be counter-intuitive to it's own design. RoN does NOT work in discard, it may work to a very SAD level if it is costed cheaply enough, but the point of discard is to leave your opponent with no cards. Once you hit this brick, RoN shuts off.
It's not even that the naysayers are necessarily against discard. I currently run a discard heavy deck in standard with Duress, Rakdos' Return, and Liliana of the Veil, and I wouldn't want to run this since it turns itself off, at best it could be seen as a sb option against control decks running sphinx's revelation, but even then it does nothing without itself, and your just hoping the control player will let you set this up for your rakdos' return. It's unlikely to happen, but you probably just won if you get it.
It's not about whether the effects are superior, which your correct, every one of them is superior...well except for the mana one since it becomes very conditional to whether or not it's good, but it can definitely be more explosive then flat damage. The issue is it has Megrim's weakness of turning off once you succeed in dumping your opponents hand. Against the majority of decks, they will now play things, and not have any hand. Because of this, it's pretty hard to consistently play this for benefit. There are decks that do have the chance through mana denial combined with some discard, which is most often a counter-intuitive strategy since mana denial stops them from playing spells, so you shouldn't be worrying about there hand at this point. The only reasonable card that has been suggested that I'VE seen(and in my opinion) was Smallpox, and then I'd simply state that I'd rather have something else in the spot for the next reason.
Not only does it have Megrim's conditional nature, but it then also has a random effect after that, since you don't know what your opponent is going to give you upon discard. This can be routed a bit with things like duress, or thoughtsieze, but then your still basing your decks strategy over hopes of what your opponent is playing, since you still don't know what kind of hand your opponent is looking to keep. This bodes badly for any card, for any deck since you now have TWO random elements at effect, the fact that they need cards for you to force them to discard, and the fact that the effect itself is random. I guess the argument can be made that this might lead to a cheaper CMC, but that still seems like bad grounds to vote it in over other cards, with rarer effects like BitWC, and Consuming Contract.
If you want a good discard finisher, you need to look for something like The Rack, or Lavaborn Muse. I've even stated that I personally would have been happy to see some variant on things like that that does something other than damage. I'm NOT okay with a "megrim" that will only do these things conditionally, often being a dead card since your not always going to get it turn 2 no matter what the CMC.
Agreed, but that isn't the card we had voted in, and I personally think wizards R & D changing it's rules text is wishful thinking and unlikely. I would not state that there is no place for it, simply that the space for it, even casually, is amazingly narrow compared to the other options.
This narrowness on a card we all voted for is frustrating, especially when some of the more unique cards were simply dismissed. I mean people didn't even perceive that Consuming Contract could be gotten rid of or bounced by you instead of losing. It just went over peoples heads. Similarly, I truly think a lot of people aren't going to get my point of conditional issues with this card until they play with it, which is going to make this a forgotten card.
I know a lot of defenders of this card have thought of the detractors as angry, when confused and frustrated, followed by annoyed and frustrated is the actuality. More than one poster has said something to the effect of being annoyed that people "fell for" a "skill tester". This is slang used by competitive players to describe a card no one plays after a few weeks even though it looks amazing, because the card was designed to only LOOK amazing. That is something R & D actually does, and it's a good thing for them to do because it teaches card evaluation over time, and puts variety into play.
An example of what the detractors are seeing is Megrim, but it's far from the only one. In the current standard someone might refer to Alms Beast as a skill tester. It's not at all hard to see where Alms Beast shines, since all you have to do is find a way for him to have evasion, and you have payed 4 for a 6/6 with no downsides, however, trying to give it evasion is the issue. In the same meta are cards that have better evasion all by themselves, and you don't really have ANY amazing evasion in it's colors, with maybe your best bet being Gift of Orzhova and that is, of course, questionable to run with.
Megrim was a skill tester, because it looked like a card that allows you to win with a strategy that leaves your opponent with no spells to play. When I first saw megrim(I started in tempest so...) that is exactly what I thought, right up until I got beat by a goblin deck that just played their spells. My friend had tried to explain it's downsides to me, comparing it to the rack, and I simply didn't listen, so enamored with my ability to do damage while stopping my opponents deck in it's tracks. My Megrim deck was badly built, and I was a very new player, but Megrim taught me a lot about card evaluation, and it's issue had nothing to do with it being unique or not.
Thus, yes, this cards different values are way over the top, but it's a random effect that only goes off in conditional events. It might be okay in a sideboard against control decks which will want to have card draw into control to close with, but my tabletop magic friends don't even play with sideboards. If your tabletop does, cool, that is what you can count on this card doing. When an aggresive deck can be down to no cards by turn 6(and that isn't even an impressively aggresive hand), then they will be down to no cards by turn 4 against a deck using discard, even light discard, because they aren't going to stop playing their spells when you make them discard but just the opposite.
Megrim is conditional burn spell with horrible mana-to-damage ratio and burn spells do nothing unless you have enough to deal 20.
Revenge gives you real advantage no matter what you hit. The problem is that it does nothing by itself and those kind of cards are only playable in combo decks. So unless someone manages to combo this off with windfall-like effects then it's only possible use is hoser to something like dredge.
You don't even need to build around it. It plays itself.
For example Jund playing tusks and huntmasters with BiTWC in play. You hit me - I get back my stuff and regain lost life, thank you. Also all shocklands that I draw are now free raisedeads.
If RoN costs 3 or more, it'll be too slow against dredge.
If RoN costs 2 mana, why not play rest in peace?
If RoN costs 1 mana, why not play relic of progenitus?
If RoN costs 0 mana, why not play tormod's crypt?
If RoN has a leyline ability, why not play leyline of the void?
Because building is a deck from scratch is fun? You don't have to be a bad player to enjoy building an original deck rather than tune a netdeck for your metagame - for some people, it's more fun than winning. I, personally, would rather go 2-2 at an FNM with an original deck than 4-0 with something I just grabbed off the internet.
(I realize, of course, that "fun" is a term that's foreign to many players on these forums)
UUUAzami, Lady of ScrollsUUU
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
GWURafiq of the ManyGWU
Suddenly, Broken?
Is this really what requires cards to read in order for this forum to build an original competitive deck?
That being said, I did not vote for this card at any step because I thought it sucked. Honestly I think it won because of the name, because its "catchy". It isn't the first time the YTMC has been "ruined" by voting. Forgotten Ancient had different mana costs and P/T's put up to a vote. The two most popular ones were 1GG for an 0/2 and 3G for an 0/3. Competitive players wanted the 1GG 0/2. The 4 mana version won, and thus people whined about it. And to be blunt: Forgotten Ancient is not a good card competitively. I wouldn't call it a bad card, but its nothing special. Vanish into Memory isn't a good card competitively either but the way it was designed killed YTMC because of the way they went about it. Nobody ended up happy with the card. In fact if it wasn't for Coldsnap allowing the voted on art to "blend" in with the setting, who knows when the card would have seen print. Because it had to be printed with that art. While the card ended up as a marginal removal spell, it isn't bad.
Crucible of Worlds is a rare card that appealed to just about everybody.
This... well it clearly appealed to somebody. No competitive player will ever touch this or let this touch their trade binders. This is a build around card, and I guess it makes casuals happy (the vast majority of wizards market), but it makes it feel like the process was a complete waste of time to competitive players. I'm pretty sure the pro's who were clamoring for enchantment over land wish they went with land now, because with Land you could get something that would possibly appeal to everybody (and at worst marginally playable). A land has to be inherently bad for people to hate it.
Every You Make The Card has been reprinted at least once, yes even Vanish into Memory saw a reprint in a Duel Deck. I'm inclined to think that this new YMTC will never see the light of day again. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other designs pop up however. Xantid Swarm and Double Strike were both proposed ideas that came from the 1st You Make The Card. Double Strike came out before Forgotten Ancient and Xantid Swarm appeared in the same set as Forgotten Ancient.
Don't dispair, some of the other popular designs will reappear again. I doubt it will be the quick turnaround of the 1st YMTC, but I am sure it will happen. That is the only positive thing I can take away from this YMTC, because the winner is disappointing. But hey, at least I can .03 ticket for YMTC once it comes out on MODO since I'll be sure to open like 6 of them.
Then it needs to cost something like 6 or 7 to be not broken.
I read that last bit like the billy Madison quote. O'Doyle rules!
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
Yes, that is literally exactly what we are all like. Every single spike and person who doesn't like this card is a hateful person and we do all believe that everybody else deserves no respect is worthless. We also all spend as much money as we can. Turns out that's the trick to the game. Shuffling up and playing is a formality, but we really could just ask one another how much our deck costs and scoop to the other person.
Holy crap this is the biggest strawman I've ever seen.
For one, Wizards does appreciate secondary market sales. They won't see the money themselves, but Magic being profitable enough that stores continue to carry it is good for them. Even if I don't open something from a pack, the cards I buy originally came from one. By buying these I am justifying continued pack opening.
I don't know where you're getting this flippant view that we think other people's opinions are invalid. I don't like RoN because it is narrow and explores design space we already have in a wordier way. I think that BitWC can go into more decks and hits more demographics. This has nothing to do with power level (mana cost is a huge part of that and we don't know what either would be).
BitWC could be played in a lot of ways whereas RoN requires me to play a deck with discard or wheel effects. (BitWC has me play decks that play creatures and can potentially lose life at some point in the game. That's a restriction too, but a lot more lenient of one). I want to play with the YMTC. That's supposed to be the fun part of this whole thing. I'm allowed to dislike a card that I'll never get to play because it was voted in over a card that I think has broader applications
These accusations of people talking down to RoN voters are grossly exaggerated. Your card won, stop playing the victim
I appreciate what you're doing here, but the problem is your largely wrong about the detractors. Every time someone calls a card unplayable, someone is there to call that person a spike, and tell them they don't like fun, and that they just want to win.
Well, first off, Forgotten Ancient is actually a pretty good card, and one that saw play in competitive magic in standard. It would still be seeing play at the 1GG cost, so that was the case, but I wouldn't have been upset over a one mana difference personally. We haven't even reached that step, I'll note. We have not even gotten to mana cost and already people are convinced that this is pretty not good.
Forgotten Ancient is also amazing in EDH, and you know what EDH deck he's simply amazing in? Well...any EDH deck playing green. Any one of them. He comes down and people give him counters or do something to kill him.
Similarly, I usually play Vanish into Memory in EDH, because it's safe to assume someone will do something with tokens, and even against a 2/2 it's 2 drawn cards and all upsides. Otherwise you just have to hit something with better power than toughness, and you have card advantage and evasion. It's 4 mana cost will never make it playable anywhere else, but it's effect is unique and kind of awesome, because it has many varied interactions.
Before I get to my main point, I wanted to highlight this. I'm not going to put this player, who has decided to classify me as a spike, which is only half true, down. I have not actually put down ANY players wanting to play this card, and feel for their point of view that I once shared with a similar card. I enjoy competitive interaction, but more than that, I enjoy unique expression of deck building, and card interaction. That puts me squarely in the Johnny boat, and I'm happy to be a Johnny. I usually am not playing a net deck, and if I am, I won't be next week. I'm only playing the netdeck to understand it's interactions so that I can build something that beats it. Piloting a deck often gives you a good sense for it's strengths and weaknesses.
That being said, this wall of text is insulting when almost no one is insulting casual players. I enjoy EDH, and part of the fun of EDH is 3 other players trying to kill you. It's not a format your going to win every game of, and that is accepted if it's something you get into. I also have a pauper deck, and a couple of tribal decks for those formats, and only a few of my friends play tribal anyway, a style I truly enjoy. I really love my tribal leeches deck.
So here's the thing. RoN DOES see a minute of play in EDH. It goes into a specific deck with a very specific general and it's arguably not the greatest in that deck. If it costs 1 mana, then that is the best case scenario, and may allow it to branch into VERY FRINGE play somewhere else, and that includes just kitchen table casual. I personally have 3 Lavaborn Muses from picking up Tibalt vs. Sorin. I picked up 3 Tibalt vs. Sorin to get the rest of my Tibalt planeswalker card playset, while also picking up sweet art for Lingering Souls, and Sorin too. I now have a tibalt madness deck, that probably can't be called good, but I at least find fun, because I like building around the occasional terrible card(and Tibalt is just terrible.)
RoN works in discard. That is it, you can make the "light discard" argument, and that's fine, I'll let you, and I personally will also tell you that is the BEST kind of discard since you're focus in such a deck will change once your opponent starts top decking. The problem is what it does there:
Against a goblin deck, assuming RoN costs 1:
I go first with my discard, I lay a swamp and drop RoN.
He goes next and drops a mountain and a...what will I give him, do we want budget cards? Lets make this Budget goblins, which means no Goblin Lackey here. Okay, we'll go with Mogg Fanatic.
I hymn to tourach them, after laying a second swamp, and they give up a land, and a gob(doesn't matter which). I now have 2 mana and a 2/2. Best case scenario I just god drawed and I hymn again. If I do, I win, that play will happen once in a blue moon, and if your okay with losing 12 times to get to this reaction, then cool. There is a decent chance I don't have a lot else to drop, but a more fair drop might be Doom Blade, wanting to use my resource, I use it to blow up there guy, in this case I decided to use my mana and you might not, but this might showcase why the land is the most terrible impact of the card with no real interaction past the turn the land is discarded. Thus they are forced to sac the fanatic and deal 1 to me. I'm okay with that because I am now attacking into a nothing field.
They now drop Sparksmith and pass, they have currently 4 cards in hand, and still have a creature, albeit one that doesn't dodge my 2/2 zombie. I am still happy, so I drop blakmail and hit their goblin grenade, draw a card, putting me at 4 cards with my third land drop. I use the other 2 mana to drop diabolic edict getting rid of sparksmith, and attack for 2. I'm in a very good position. I have a creature, I have drawn some cards, and now i'm in the lead lifewise with 19 to 18. They have 2 cards, I have 4.
They draw to 3, lay a land, shock my creature, and plays ember hauler. They are now at no cards.
I draw up to 5, lay my land, and diabolic edict again. I have some discard, and some kill spells, but nothing significant to do to this field.
They draw, and lay a mountain.
I draw, miss a land drop and lay Abyssal Nightstalker.
They draw, and play a land
I draw, am still at 4 cards, they still have no creature, so I attack with my guy. 2 damage and they have no cards. I am at 19, and they are at 16. They are also rather upset at this point, and not really having fun. Even if they win they don't want to play my deck again, because look at this, this isn't fun! But I digress, they draw, and play pyrotechnics. Dealing 2 to the nightstalker, and 2 to me. I am now at 17, and they are at 16.
I draw, drop a land, and still have two discard spells, and a kill spell. With no creatures on the field, and no cards in my opponents hand, I'm forced to do nothing.
They draw, and finally do something bigger. They play Siege-Gang Commander, and now have 4 creatures, no cards in hand.
I draw, lay a land, and play my last kill spell to get rid of siege-gang commander. I could play damnation now, but they also could have had an expensive legacy gobs deck, and I assure you, you would be hurting a lot more in that situation. This is just tabletop magic. Fun game so far, right?
Damnation is a 30 dollar card.
They have 3 tokens, and they draw, and drop Krenko, Mob Boss. Man, wish I could utilize that RoN right about now. They then hit me for 3 with their tokens. I'm at 14, and they are at 16. I'm also realizing just how dead my discard strategy is right now. If I had slided into red, and had lavaborn muse, I'd at least be leading in life, and could have burn instead of direct kill cards. I could have RoN in there too, but it would be doing just as much work as it is here.
I draw, lay a land.
They tap krenko for 6 tokens, and then attack for 3 more, putting me at 11, and they are at 16. They also burn my face with a lava spike. I'm now at 8.
I draw, and finally get another creature. Nyxathid! YAY! I lay it, I now have a 7/7.
They draw, they hold their card and tap krenko to go to 12 tokens. They attack for 6, I block one and take 5. They then play their Fireball to my face for game.
I didn't give them any money or particularly super cards. The most expensive card they played was Krenko, which they probably got from a starter deck. I only left 2 dead cards in your dedicated RoN deck, and I don't feel that is unfair. What lost the game was the lack of RoN doing much. I even granted alternate win conditions with Nyxathid, and would assume you could run Myojin of Night's Reach which would largely not matter in the above scenario, as it would have remained one of your dead cards, and would not have altered the end of the game.
I'm not willing to walk through a control game, but needless to say, control won't counter the RoN, but WILL counter your discard as long as RoN remains on the field, effectively leaving you with a dead card that is doing nothing(which I don't find fun whether or not I lose, I find dead cards that do nothing to be frustrating and boring, go figure.) unless you sneak your discard past their counters. If you do, you better have done so with some nasty discard, because frankly, none of the options on RoN give a long enough impact to effectively deal with any decent control deck with counterspells.
A legacy gobs deck is one of the cheapest to put together, with the only money really being Goblin Lackey and Goblin Piledriver, other than that, you can spend money on Aether Vial, Rishadan Port, and Wasteland all of which would have altered things heavily if dropped early. You can also sink money into legacy gobs with some dual and fetch lands.
This deck would never be fun, because the point of it is to get your opponent down to almost nothing in the play department. There is almost no situation where that is fun, and is often not fun for either player for the above stated reasons.
In EDH this is nowhere near as bad, but other than Nath decks, no one gets to play this in EDH, because any other general dipping into black has better things to do, and is not as centered around discard. Even Nath has to think awhile about RoN because he has a similar ability attached to him that doesn't cost him a card slot. There are Nath decks that won't play this in EDH.
BitWC on the other hand would see play in Karador, Ghost Chieftain right off the bat. It would also see play in Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Endrek Sar, Master Breeder, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Korlash, Heir to Blackblade, and Marrow-Gnawer just to name a few, since it gives you options other than the command zone for all these guys who center their decks around themselves, or sac effects, or both. Hell, BitWC sees play in any of these decks even at a ridiculous mana cost like 5 to 6 CMC. It's still easy to consider, even though it's ridiculous to assume BitWC would cost that much when any of it's comparisons(Haunted Crossroads, Phyrexian Reclamation, or Oversold Cemetery) don't cost anything near that. 4 is a reasonable explanation for such a spell, and at rare 3 is likely. With RoN I can't say that, even at rare this might not get the 1CMC sweet spot which still leaves it a questionable play, even for fun, at best.
It's about a grindy strategy card that doesn't work that well in it's own strategy. I'm not going to say it's as bad as Megrim, and that was never the question, although, yes, at least I can count on what Megrim will do for me, I can't do that with this guy. Despite that, yes, this has potential for something more explosive at the cost of anything resembling structure to it's use, or interaction with other cards.
Enlighten me as to exactly what competitive deck Forgotten Ancient saw play in during standard. Because the decks I remember from that era when it was legal in Standard that were competitive included Astral Slide, Mirari's Wake, Psychatog, Madness, Goblins, Mono White Control, Urza-Tron, U/W control, Broodstar Affinity, Ravager Affinity, Tooth and Nail, Elf and Nail, Krark-Clan Iron Works Combo, Big Red, etc. I might be missing a few, however the fact is that Forgotten Ancient saw no competitive play in standard, no competitive play in extended and sees no competitive play in legacy formats. I'm not saying the card is bad, it would most certainly be better as a 1GG 0/2, but the card itself was created at a time where EDH did not exist. So this particular card's creation was supposed to be about making the best card possible because otherwise you couldn't play it. While it is certainly an okay rare that isn't the total defination of bulk, it was just too expensive in mana cost and outclassed by the other decks that were out at the time. In all honesty, the three mana version would have most likely seen no play either in standard due to the presence of Astral Slide and then the introduction of Mirrodin Block, who's cards far outclassed it.
Yes, Forgotten Ancient is really good in EDH, which is a good thing I suppose as it has given the card a second lease on life when it never had a first.
Yeah Vanish into Memory isn't sexy like Forgotten Ancient and Crucible of Worlds can be, but it is technically an exercise in what designers have to do to fill slots and balance game play at lower rarities for limited. Yes I didn't call the card bad, but nobody ended up happy with it because it wasn't "sexy". It was rather bland, so much so it ended up as an Uncommon.
The previous poster was incorrect, it was not standard it was Type 1 - now formerly called Vintage where he was beyond amazing.
it should go more like t1, creature, pass. t2, RoN, thoughtseize or something like that.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)