Since it is being reprinted in M14, green decks might put 2 or 3 in the SB or even main to combat graveyard based decks or Snapcaster Mage decks. But is it really better than Ground Seal or Rest in Peace? It's more removable and vulnerable and a tad slower than these.
The card is a great piece of utility that will be giving certain deck archetypes even more advantage than they already have. Anything running green will now have a Snapcaster/Flashback/Reanimator hoser, it will put up a defense against creature-based blitz and aggro decks since a 2/2 going on to a 3/3, 4/4, etc. is a tough thing to remove, also, it gains you a life as well.
As for investing mana into it, I honestly don't believe it is any problem at all. This card isn't exactly a mana sink, but rather a utility creature that is capable of sinking your mana into. Sure, you've spent 1GGG for a 4/4, but now you have a 4/4 and you've gained two life. That is a significant advantage in any stage of the game be it turn 3 or turn 10.
Also, I think this is going to find a place in a number of midrange decks as well as Naya/Jund/Gruul aggro. T1 Elf, T2 Burning Tree into Scavenging Ooze, T3 swing and Bloodrush the Ooze, then exile the Bloodrushed card to make him bigger and more resilient. The possibilities this card provides for standard are pretty big.
It isn't really that effective, being a 2/2 for 1G, a 3/3 for 1GG, a 4/4 for 1GGG, etc..
this argument is asinine and incorrect. underworld connections in theory costs 10 mana to draw 7 cards.
it doesn't. i played this card extensively, and i promise you that it costs 1 to draw a card. not BB2, it costs 1.
same with scavenging ooze. get that mode of thinking out of your head, because it will absolutely cause you to poorly evaluate cards.
It looks really powerful. The power lies in the flexibility, it's not relevant to evaluate the different p/t vs cost in a vacuum. Ref Figure of Destiny. The "side effect" of hosing graveyard strategies and gaining a few life is just gravy.
In Standard it's going to be good-to-great but "shake up" is too strong, imo.
However in Modern, it will "shake up" and I'll go as far as to say finally push Goyf prices down... but it'll probably take at least a year thanks to the current hoarding going on and for others to fully understand the Goyf-Ooze dyanamic. The dynamic in Modern is A LOT different than Legacy where heavy creature decks don't really exist (outside Merfolk/Goblins) so I think Ooze is going to catch a lot of people off guard initially in Modern.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
It isn't really that effective, being a 2/2 for 1G, a 3/3 for 1GG, a 4/4 for 1GGG, etc..
Card is good, but people are way over-hyping it from its brief stint in Legacy.
"Brief stint?" It's a staple in Vintage and Legacy hatebear decks including Green to this day. It's a maindeckable answer to graveyards that grows at instant speed over time just like Figure of Destiny in normal circumstances.
Ooze is less powerful in a format that does not require you have answers to the graveyard, true. Also true is that Deathrite Shaman does much the same thing and is still in Standard. For these reasons, Ooze might not end up making the cut. But let's not kid ourselves for a minute on whether it's a good card or not. It's very, very good for what it does.
In Standard it's going to be good-to-great but "shake up" is too strong, imo.
However in Modern, it will "shake up" and I'll go as far as to say finally push Goyf prices down... but it'll probably take at least a year thanks to the current hoarding going on and for others to fully understand the Goyf-Ooze dyanamic. The dynamic in Modern is A LOT different than Legacy where heavy creature decks don't really exist (outside Merfolk/Goblins) so I think Ooze is going to catch a lot of people off guard initially in Modern.
Yep, probably. The thing about Goyf is that he doesn't *do* anything. He's the best beater-to-cost, sure, but whenever I'm brewing in Eternal, I find myself gravitating towards Ooze because he does a fairly decent Goyf impression while actually doing something relevant other than attacking. That's really, really important for a creature deck. More so in a format with healthy combo decks.
Why is everyone acting like I said the card was bad?
I even specifically said, and I quote, "Card is good."
It is a good card, but it is not anywhere close to the nigh-format warping power level people are making it out to be.
In an aggressive deck, its a 2/2 for 2 that you can then later sacrifice your precious and needed tempo to grow, and in midrange it competes in the two drop slot with much needed spells such as Farseek and various removal spells.
It will remain to be seen what kind of metagame is sculpted with the release of Theros and the rotation of Innistrad block, but I very much doubt Scooze will make much of an impact in our current INN-M13-RTR metagame, and any slot he takes on (outside of pure graveyard hate in green sideboards) could more than likely be filled with numerous other cards to similar or greater effect.
"Brief stint?" It's a staple in Vintage and Legacy hatebear decks including Green to this day. It's a maindeckable answer to graveyards that grows at instant speed over time just like Figure of Destiny in normal circumstances.
Ooze is less powerful in a format that does not require you have answers to the graveyard, true. Also true is that Deathrite Shaman does much the same thing and is still in Standard. For these reasons, Ooze might not end up making the cut. But let's not kid ourselves for a minute on whether it's a good card or not. It's very, very good for what it does.
It sees some play in Maverick which is, to be blunt, an outlier deck currently. And yes, "brief stint," it saw the most Legacy play it ever has when decks could play a singleton copy to tutor with GSZ as an answer to the then-popular reanimator deck.
I agree mostly with your second paragraph, though. I'll repeat myself for the third time now, I'm not saying Ooze is bad.
"Brief stint?" It's a staple in Vintage and Legacy hatebear decks including Green to this day. It's a maindeckable answer to graveyards that grows at instant speed over time just like Figure of Destiny in normal circumstances.
As an actual Eternal player, I can tell you that a) those decks only play a few Ooze, and b) those decks almost universally suck. At one point where Maverick was dominant because the decks to beat were "fair" decks like RUG and Esper, sure. But today there's just too much combo to really consider Ooze a powerhouse.
EDIT: So apparently, since DGM Ooze has only made it to 4 top 8 decks in Legacy Opens. The interesting part is that in 3 of those 4, he was a singleton sideboard card...
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Here's the thing with ooze...
in order to get those counters the exiled card needs to be a creature card. You can exile cards left and right, but to get that two for one it's got to be a creature card.
As an actual Eternal player, I can tell you that a) those decks only play a few Ooze, and b) those decks almost universally suck. At one point where Maverick was dominant because the decks to beat were "fair" decks like RUG and Esper, sure. But today there's just too much combo to really consider Ooze a powerhouse.
EDIT: So apparently, since DGM Ooze has only made it to 4 top 8 decks in Legacy Opens. The interesting part is that in 3 of those 4, he was a singleton sideboard card...
The metagame waxes and wanes, and answer cards like Ooze get better or worse based on what else is being played. That doesn't make Ooze any less good.
Take a longer view. Since the beginning of 2012, Ooze has appeared in 111 top 8 Legacy decks in the Open Series. That's a very respectable showing. Heck, it's been in 6 top 8 decks since April alone.
In Vintage, it was in the BUG Fish deck that won the Bazaar of Moxen, for chrissakes.
The point is that it's a staple in the format. it lives in established decks that win tournaments. Just because it may see less play from week to week as the metagame shifts does not detract from its utility. The suggestion that decks playing Ooze "almost universally suck" is hyperbole.
P.S. You are not the only "actual Eternal player" in the thread, I suspect.
This card will be absolutely bonkers and standard. Mark my words. This is the second coming of Tarmogoyf (at least in standard anyway).
Hey, I like the card, but that might be taking it a biiiiit too far. Ooze is great if you need a good solid beatstick and want to have maindeck game against graveyard-based strategies. With Innistrad going away, it's not a sure thing that the yard is going to be a big thing. (Scavange isn't making any waves currently.) If not, then it all depends on what other 2 drops Ooze competes with.
This card will be absolutely bonkers and standard. Mark my words. This is the second coming of Tarmogoyf (at least in standard anyway).
I've heard this somewhere before, about different cards (turned out entirely inaccurate.) Also, Tarmogoyf wasn't anything in its standard (it was ~10$, once upon a time.)
The metagame waxes and wanes, and answer cards like Ooze get better or worse based on what else is being played. That doesn't make Ooze any less good.
Take a longer view. Since the beginning of 2012, Ooze has appeared in 111 top 8 Legacy decks in the Open Series. That's a very respectable showing. Heck, it's been in 6 top 8 decks since April alone.
In Vintage, it was in the BUG Fish deck that won the Bazaar of Moxen, for chrissakes.
The point is that it's a staple in the format. it lives in established decks that win tournaments. Just because it may see less play from week to week as the metagame shifts does not detract from its utility. The suggestion that decks playing Ooze "almost universally suck" is hyperbole.
P.S. You are not the only "actual Eternal player" in the thread, I suspect.
How many of those hundred odd decks were using a singleton copy of it? How many were using GSZ? How many were in the time period of reanimator's Legacy reign?
How many copies did that Vintage list run? Are there many other archetypes that run scooze? Do they play many copies?
These are all relevant questions. There is a difference between a deck playing Scooze "for Scooze" and a deck playing one or two copies as graveyard hate with some upside.
In Standard it's going to be good-to-great but "shake up" is too strong, imo.
However in Modern, it will "shake up" and I'll go as far as to say finally push Goyf prices down... but it'll probably take at least a year thanks to the current hoarding going on and for others to fully understand the Goyf-Ooze dyanamic. The dynamic in Modern is A LOT different than Legacy where heavy creature decks don't really exist (outside Merfolk/Goblins) so I think Ooze is going to catch a lot of people off guard initially in Modern.
Lol most decks that run goyf can deal with ooze very easily the turn it comes down. RG aggro has multiple removal spells for it and Jund is Jund so pick a card. I see no reason why ooze would make Gofy go down in price.
I don't see the difference. Ooze *is* graveyard hate with an upside. That is a very good thing to be, and it is why Ooze sees regular play and will continue to see regular play. It's a good card. It will be just as good in Standard, provided there is a need to address the graveyard.
If there is not, then it just depends what other 2-drops it competes with. Remember, lifegain is actually a very good thing nowadays when it doesn't cost you a card, and Standard is full of creatures. Ooze is a very good mana sink. He competes fine with other creatures when he's not being run as a hate bear, but of course, it depends who he is being compared to.
As to your questions:
1) Most Legacy lists I'm aware of run a singleton or two of Ooze, and Maverick typically runs it as part of a GSZ toolbox. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.
2) The Bazaar of Moxen list ran two, as I recall. I've used the deck since in sanctioned Vintage, and the two Oozes plus Deathrites are very powerful insofar as they both hate the yard and recoup life lost from Bob. Very good stuff.
3) I haven't done an exhaustive analysis on all decks that run Ooze. Typically it's Hatebear.dec of various flavors. Ooze slots in for Goyf when it's important to squeeze more utility out of your beaters.
Why is everyone acting like I said the card was bad?
I even specifically said, and I quote, "Card is good."
It is a good card, but it is not anywhere close to the nigh-format warping power level people are making it out to be.
In an aggressive deck, its a 2/2 for 2 that you can then later sacrifice your precious and needed tempo to grow, and in midrange it competes in the two drop slot with much needed spells such as Farseek and various removal spells.
It will remain to be seen what kind of metagame is sculpted with the release of Theros and the rotation of Innistrad block, but I very much doubt Scooze will make much of an impact in our current INN-M13-RTR metagame, and any slot he takes on (outside of pure graveyard hate in green sideboards) could more than likely be filled with numerous other cards to similar or greater effect.
Depends on exactly what you consider "format warping" but it is easily strong enough to make an impact on some tier one decks, due to its ability to shut out powerhouses like Unburial Rites, Snapcaster Mage, and Lingering Souls...while also serving as an efficient lifegaining beater. The former means that it can shape the format, the latter means that it is versatile enough to be worthwhile in virtually any deck running green.
IMO for the brief stint that it is legal alongside the INN stuff it will be format warping. Controlling the graveyard while also winning creature wars and damage races is just really big game. After INN rotates I assume his role will become more limited, although maybe the raw efficiency in terms of size and lifegain will still be enough to see lots of play. Seems like a sort of Thragtusk/Huntmaster replacement in G/x midrange decks, which can spend the early game playing removal spells then drop the Ooze as a 4/4+ that gains life and threatens to just take over the game.
He will scavenge any creature (note: he can exile from any GY) for G for a +1/+1 counter and 1 life.
He can fight Reanimator decks. They Grisly Salvage and drop AoS and Unburial into their GY. Exile the AoS and get a counter.
He can fight flashback spells. Yes there aren't a lot, but Reanimator has targets. It can also make Snapcaster a bit less valuable (and if you're getting no value from a SCM, you're playing Ambush Viper).
I am sort of intrigued to see his impact for Modern. It will be interesting to see if he has an impact on Melira Pod.
Will Ooze become Goyf Junior in standard? I don't think so.
Will people try to jam Ooze into any green deck? Yes.
Will he continue to see play in his standard existence? My gut says yes; it will depend on how things shape up...but Theros looks to be at least semi-creature relevant.
Doom Blade and Shock will likely keep ooze in check for at least some part. There is still Mizzium Mortars, and blue always has bounce effects.
Scavenging Ooze is far more playable in aggro and midrange (probably the only decks that want it, anyway) than Rest in Peace is, and I'd say it's significantly better than Ground Seal. I'd rather spend 1G on Grizzly Bears than a cantrip in the worst case.
I fear that Ooze's playability in Standard will be heavily dependent on the popularity of burn spells there. I've found that Ooze is significantly worse in Modern than in Legacy because Lightning Bolt is significantly more popular in Modern, so Ooze either dies to Bolt or turns into a 5-drop (that costs 2 dead guys in order to dodge Bolt in response to the 2nd +1/+1 counter).
In testing against Melira Pod, Ooze tends to get stressed out surprisingly often--it needs GG open in order to handle Deathrite Shaman and the combo threat at the same time, which is tough to get early-game. Get multiple Deathrites out and Pod can even squeeze unpunished Deathrite activations in.
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In a vaccuum, yes.
Will it "shake up standard?" No.
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It isn't really that effective, being a 2/2 for 1G, a 3/3 for 1GG, a 4/4 for 1GGG, etc..
As for splashable, sure a 1G cost is doable, but the G activation is a deceptively steep G commitment.
Card is good, but people are way over-hyping it from its brief stint in Legacy.
How could you have possibly playtested the card in the post-Innistrad environ when we have approximately zero spoilers for Theros?
That double post. Sorry mods.
As for investing mana into it, I honestly don't believe it is any problem at all. This card isn't exactly a mana sink, but rather a utility creature that is capable of sinking your mana into. Sure, you've spent 1GGG for a 4/4, but now you have a 4/4 and you've gained two life. That is a significant advantage in any stage of the game be it turn 3 or turn 10.
Also, I think this is going to find a place in a number of midrange decks as well as Naya/Jund/Gruul aggro. T1 Elf, T2 Burning Tree into Scavenging Ooze, T3 swing and Bloodrush the Ooze, then exile the Bloodrushed card to make him bigger and more resilient. The possibilities this card provides for standard are pretty big.
As far as it's impact on Standard? I can't predict.
However, in Modern, this card is going to change some things FOR SURE.
this argument is asinine and incorrect.
underworld connections in theory costs 10 mana to draw 7 cards.
it doesn't. i played this card extensively, and i promise you that it costs 1 to draw a card. not BB2, it costs 1.
same with scavenging ooze. get that mode of thinking out of your head, because it will absolutely cause you to poorly evaluate cards.
However in Modern, it will "shake up" and I'll go as far as to say finally push Goyf prices down... but it'll probably take at least a year thanks to the current hoarding going on and for others to fully understand the Goyf-Ooze dyanamic. The dynamic in Modern is A LOT different than Legacy where heavy creature decks don't really exist (outside Merfolk/Goblins) so I think Ooze is going to catch a lot of people off guard initially in Modern.
"Brief stint?" It's a staple in Vintage and Legacy hatebear decks including Green to this day. It's a maindeckable answer to graveyards that grows at instant speed over time just like Figure of Destiny in normal circumstances.
Ooze is less powerful in a format that does not require you have answers to the graveyard, true. Also true is that Deathrite Shaman does much the same thing and is still in Standard. For these reasons, Ooze might not end up making the cut. But let's not kid ourselves for a minute on whether it's a good card or not. It's very, very good for what it does.
Yep, probably. The thing about Goyf is that he doesn't *do* anything. He's the best beater-to-cost, sure, but whenever I'm brewing in Eternal, I find myself gravitating towards Ooze because he does a fairly decent Goyf impression while actually doing something relevant other than attacking. That's really, really important for a creature deck. More so in a format with healthy combo decks.
I even specifically said, and I quote, "Card is good."
It is a good card, but it is not anywhere close to the nigh-format warping power level people are making it out to be.
In an aggressive deck, its a 2/2 for 2 that you can then later sacrifice your precious and needed tempo to grow, and in midrange it competes in the two drop slot with much needed spells such as Farseek and various removal spells.
It will remain to be seen what kind of metagame is sculpted with the release of Theros and the rotation of Innistrad block, but I very much doubt Scooze will make much of an impact in our current INN-M13-RTR metagame, and any slot he takes on (outside of pure graveyard hate in green sideboards) could more than likely be filled with numerous other cards to similar or greater effect.
It sees some play in Maverick which is, to be blunt, an outlier deck currently. And yes, "brief stint," it saw the most Legacy play it ever has when decks could play a singleton copy to tutor with GSZ as an answer to the then-popular reanimator deck.
I agree mostly with your second paragraph, though. I'll repeat myself for the third time now, I'm not saying Ooze is bad.
As an actual Eternal player, I can tell you that a) those decks only play a few Ooze, and b) those decks almost universally suck. At one point where Maverick was dominant because the decks to beat were "fair" decks like RUG and Esper, sure. But today there's just too much combo to really consider Ooze a powerhouse.
EDIT: So apparently, since DGM Ooze has only made it to 4 top 8 decks in Legacy Opens. The interesting part is that in 3 of those 4, he was a singleton sideboard card...
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
in order to get those counters the exiled card needs to be a creature card. You can exile cards left and right, but to get that two for one it's got to be a creature card.
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The metagame waxes and wanes, and answer cards like Ooze get better or worse based on what else is being played. That doesn't make Ooze any less good.
Take a longer view. Since the beginning of 2012, Ooze has appeared in 111 top 8 Legacy decks in the Open Series. That's a very respectable showing. Heck, it's been in 6 top 8 decks since April alone.
In Vintage, it was in the BUG Fish deck that won the Bazaar of Moxen, for chrissakes.
The point is that it's a staple in the format. it lives in established decks that win tournaments. Just because it may see less play from week to week as the metagame shifts does not detract from its utility. The suggestion that decks playing Ooze "almost universally suck" is hyperbole.
P.S. You are not the only "actual Eternal player" in the thread, I suspect.
Hey, I like the card, but that might be taking it a biiiiit too far. Ooze is great if you need a good solid beatstick and want to have maindeck game against graveyard-based strategies. With Innistrad going away, it's not a sure thing that the yard is going to be a big thing. (Scavange isn't making any waves currently.) If not, then it all depends on what other 2 drops Ooze competes with.
I've heard this somewhere before, about different cards (turned out entirely inaccurate.) Also, Tarmogoyf wasn't anything in its standard (it was ~10$, once upon a time.)
How many of those hundred odd decks were using a singleton copy of it? How many were using GSZ? How many were in the time period of reanimator's Legacy reign?
How many copies did that Vintage list run? Are there many other archetypes that run scooze? Do they play many copies?
These are all relevant questions. There is a difference between a deck playing Scooze "for Scooze" and a deck playing one or two copies as graveyard hate with some upside.
Lol most decks that run goyf can deal with ooze very easily the turn it comes down. RG aggro has multiple removal spells for it and Jund is Jund so pick a card. I see no reason why ooze would make Gofy go down in price.
If there is not, then it just depends what other 2-drops it competes with. Remember, lifegain is actually a very good thing nowadays when it doesn't cost you a card, and Standard is full of creatures. Ooze is a very good mana sink. He competes fine with other creatures when he's not being run as a hate bear, but of course, it depends who he is being compared to.
As to your questions:
1) Most Legacy lists I'm aware of run a singleton or two of Ooze, and Maverick typically runs it as part of a GSZ toolbox. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.
2) The Bazaar of Moxen list ran two, as I recall. I've used the deck since in sanctioned Vintage, and the two Oozes plus Deathrites are very powerful insofar as they both hate the yard and recoup life lost from Bob. Very good stuff.
3) I haven't done an exhaustive analysis on all decks that run Ooze. Typically it's Hatebear.dec of various flavors. Ooze slots in for Goyf when it's important to squeeze more utility out of your beaters.
Depends on exactly what you consider "format warping" but it is easily strong enough to make an impact on some tier one decks, due to its ability to shut out powerhouses like Unburial Rites, Snapcaster Mage, and Lingering Souls...while also serving as an efficient lifegaining beater. The former means that it can shape the format, the latter means that it is versatile enough to be worthwhile in virtually any deck running green.
IMO for the brief stint that it is legal alongside the INN stuff it will be format warping. Controlling the graveyard while also winning creature wars and damage races is just really big game. After INN rotates I assume his role will become more limited, although maybe the raw efficiency in terms of size and lifegain will still be enough to see lots of play. Seems like a sort of Thragtusk/Huntmaster replacement in G/x midrange decks, which can spend the early game playing removal spells then drop the Ooze as a 4/4+ that gains life and threatens to just take over the game.
He will scavenge any creature (note: he can exile from any GY) for G for a +1/+1 counter and 1 life.
He can fight Reanimator decks. They Grisly Salvage and drop AoS and Unburial into their GY. Exile the AoS and get a counter.
He can fight flashback spells. Yes there aren't a lot, but Reanimator has targets. It can also make Snapcaster a bit less valuable (and if you're getting no value from a SCM, you're playing Ambush Viper).
I am sort of intrigued to see his impact for Modern. It will be interesting to see if he has an impact on Melira Pod.
Will Ooze become Goyf Junior in standard? I don't think so.
Will people try to jam Ooze into any green deck? Yes.
Will he continue to see play in his standard existence? My gut says yes; it will depend on how things shape up...but Theros looks to be at least semi-creature relevant.
Doom Blade and Shock will likely keep ooze in check for at least some part. There is still Mizzium Mortars, and blue always has bounce effects.
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I fear that Ooze's playability in Standard will be heavily dependent on the popularity of burn spells there. I've found that Ooze is significantly worse in Modern than in Legacy because Lightning Bolt is significantly more popular in Modern, so Ooze either dies to Bolt or turns into a 5-drop (that costs 2 dead guys in order to dodge Bolt in response to the 2nd +1/+1 counter).
In testing against Melira Pod, Ooze tends to get stressed out surprisingly often--it needs GG open in order to handle Deathrite Shaman and the combo threat at the same time, which is tough to get early-game. Get multiple Deathrites out and Pod can even squeeze unpunished Deathrite activations in.