I'm glad Lilliana is finally getting the love she deserves. If there ever was a deck that can make her "work" in Standard this is that deck. Of the top of my head, the card does so many interesting and useful things:
- Makes sure you hit land drops, which is more important then it looks in a deck packing Gray Merchant of Asphodel and, possibly, Abhorrent Overlord to boot.
- Gives you extra cards that you can dump to Crypt Rat.
- Given the proper board state, Liliana is the only card that can genuinely kill a God. That counts for the coolness factor of it at the very least. Other then that, it can be used as removal, but I'm not sure you would want to do that over the first ability, since these decks already pack a metric ton of removal to begin with.
Have people been testing Mogis's Marauder? Seems like he might have a shot in a more aggressive devotion list.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I'm not using Desecration Demon, don't really have a good excuse for it other than the fact that Erebos might be better - not sure myself as I only just picked up the two Erebos' and not sure how good they are. Pack Rat was my most recent addition that proved to be very powerful for dumping creatures into the yard.
I'm looking for a good white spell to try out - any ideas? So far I have tried Gift of Immortality which is hilarious when used on a Gray Merchant but otherwise its sort of ungainly.
Quick question for mono-black and Black/white users. I have made a pretty solid B/w deck but mono red aggro is giving me fits. They just do more damage to me before i can get out my whip... or obzedat or blood baron.
Even with 4 hero's down fall and 4 pharika's cure and 4 doom blades, it's not enough.
What are other people using? I looked through almost all the cards and can't find anything in black or white that might help me on turn 2 or 3 for aggro (like a centaur healer or something...).
Anyway, any help would be appreciated!
BTW, against mid-range and control the B/w deck is boss.
Quick question for mono-black and Black/white users. I have made a pretty solid B/w deck but mono red aggro is giving me fits. They just do more damage to me before i can get out my whip... or obzedat or blood baron.
Even with 4 hero's down fall and 4 pharika's cure and 4 doom blades, it's not enough.
What are other people using? I looked through almost all the cards and can't find anything in black or white that might help me on turn 2 or 3 for aggro (like a centaur healer or something...).
Anyway, any help would be appreciated!
BTW, against mid-range and control the B/w deck is boss.
Dunno, the removal package you've described should stop most of their early game rushes dead. The only "oddball" is that Rakdos Cackler doesn't die to Doom Blade.
Are you having problems with the early creature rush, or their burning you out before you've stabilized?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I'm not using Desecration Demon, don't really have a good excuse for it other than the fact that Erebos might be better - not sure myself as I only just picked up the two Erebos' and not sure how good they are. Pack Rat was my most recent addition that proved to be very powerful for dumping creatures into the yard.
I'm looking for a good white spell to try out - any ideas? So far I have tried Gift of Immortality which is hilarious when used on a Gray Merchant but otherwise its sort of ungainly.
Couple things, 3 whips might be too much (since you can't play duplicates). Dark Prophecy seems like a cool card in theory, but in play it just isn't that good (plus you only have 18 creatures).
You might want to swap out a couple of those cards and look at more removal since you have some higher casting cost cards that need the game to go a little longer so you can play them. That's my noob magic players 2 cents
Dunno, the removal package you've described should stop most of their early game rushes dead. The only "oddball" is that Rakdos Cackler doesn't die to Doom Blade.
Are you having problems with the early creature rush, or their burning you out before you've stabilized?
Maybe last night was just bad luck... but it really was the early creature rush. Turn 1 cackler into turn 2 emmisary and then either a magma jet or another creature. So my turn 2 i can kill one, but they will then play a chandras phoenix or something.
A few games I won, and a couple lasted long enough that my blood baron did some work, but most of the time I was just getting hosed...
Even if we have 16 removal spells, they still have 20+ creatures, plus it's not like our 3 drops are loxidon smiter big, they are 3/2's or 2/3's, stuff within Lightning Strike range.
Maybe last night was just bad luck... but it really was the early creature rush. Turn 1 cackler into turn 2 emmisary and then either a magma jet or another creature. So my turn 2 i can kill one, but they will then play a chandras phoenix or something.
A few games I won, and a couple lasted long enough that my blood baron did some work, but most of the time I was just getting hosed...
Even if we have 16 removal spells, they still have 20+ creatures, plus it's not like our 3 drops are loxidon smiter big, they are 3/2's or 2/3's, stuff within Lightning Strike range.
Let me introduce High Priest of Penance. He is going nowhere without taking a creature with him unless they have a Firefist Striker but no creature is helpful in that situation.
Quick question for mono-black and Black/white users. I have made a pretty solid B/w deck but mono red aggro is giving me fits. They just do more damage to me before i can get out my whip... or obzedat or blood baron.
Even with 4 hero's down fall and 4 pharika's cure and 4 doom blades, it's not enough.
What are other people using? I looked through almost all the cards and can't find anything in black or white that might help me on turn 2 or 3 for aggro (like a centaur healer or something...).
Anyway, any help would be appreciated!
BTW, against mid-range and control the B/w deck is boss.
Yeah I pretty much have the same issue, aggro is a hard match-up and sometimes comes down to whether they can kill you before you play a Merchant or not. Whip makes a difference too as you can bring out lifelinked defenders to kill their dudes.
Returned Phalanx is maybe worth trying if you are looking for a bigger body although I feel I would only use him if I was cutting blue.
I don't actually cast those big dudes unless I'm doing some crazy Nykthos stuff, not sure if you noticed the 3 Return from the Underworld? This is why I am using Sin Collector as I value ETB effects pretty heavily.
You got me on the land count, I'll fix that as well as add another Pack Rat which is a great card if you get flooded out.
What I'm really curious about though is Erebos vs Desecration Demon, I'm not sold the Demon is better as Erebos - gotta playtest more to find out!
Erebos is most certainly not better than Desecration Demon, neither is any of your other creatures.
Desecration Demon is an absolute must 4of plus Gray-Merchant as a 4of.
Just 4 spot removal spells.
If you splash white I'd expect a Merciless Eviction somewhere in there.
Sin Collector seems pretty terrible in the meta and in a black devotion list.
Dark Prophecy as a 1of in place of a 4th underworld connections can be viable but a 2 of is definitely bad with so few creatures.
Ashen Rider and Sepulchural Primordial are there for what exactly?
Also just 23 lands and you are running even more expensive additional spells like Shadowborn Demon and Abhorrent Overlord in addition to the two above. 24 really is the minimum for this deck I think, 25 are probably better depending on your nykthos count, maybe even as many as 26.
I think your deck belongs more into the category of BW midrange plus the merchant and not black devotion.
Let me introduce High Priest of Penance. He is going nowhere without taking a creature with him unless they have a Firefist Striker but no creature is helpful in that situation.
Hmm, 1) I only have 8 white sources (the splash is very small), 2) i am not sure why they wouldn't still attack, even if they kill it, it is like a creature got doom bladed. If that single card stops them from attacking me I think the red decks operator is a baddie. (i guess on the play it might be a decent 2 drop, but on the draw they have already got an attack in).
Hmm, 1) I only have 8 white sources (the splash is very small), 2) i am not sure why they wouldn't still attack, even if they kill it, it is like a creature got doom bladed. If that single card stops them from attacking me I think the red decks operator is a baddie. (i guess on the play it might be a decent 2 drop, but on the draw they have already got an attack in).
Pack rat is pretty much unbeatable for non-devotion type mono red decks. If you're running bw high priest of penance is extrememly strong against the type of deck that only tries to attack you down. Both of these should be utilized along with a strong removal package. High priest will always trade with their best creature and can't be burned if they have a creature (you shouldn't play him on an empty board, ever), if its 1 guy against 1 guy its obviously a mediocre ability. But if it trades up for something like a boros reckoner or firefist striker you should be pretty happy about that.
The reason you are struggling with aggro is you are constantly 1 for 1ing their threats and can never gain card advantage or keep up if you happen to not draw desecration demon or another finisher.
Well , i feel you Mizral about the DD thing.
He is a beast , but against aggro decks and decks like monogreen he is a problem. They re always tapping him. and he is our hope.
If you want to splash white , try alms beast with erebos.
Pack rat is pretty much unbeatable for non-devotion type mono red decks. If you're running bw high priest of penance is extrememly strong against the type of deck that only tries to attack you down. Both of these should be utilized along with a strong removal package. High priest will always trade with their best creature and can't be burned if they have a creature (you shouldn't play him on an empty board, ever), if its 1 guy against 1 guy its obviously a mediocre ability. But if it trades up for something like a boros reckoner or firefist striker you should be pretty happy about that.
The reason you are struggling with aggro is you are constantly 1 for 1ing their threats and can never gain card advantage or keep up if you happen to not draw desecration demon or another finisher.
They have more threats than I have answers.. and it's not like we can generate card advantage early (I am thinking maybe Shrivel might work, so in that case you would).
I did play pack rats one turn, but it was on the draw, so it was a 1/1 on turn 2, they go at me with ash zealot and cackler, i can't block. next turn i make another rat, they burn it and come at me with a phoenix. I don't think pack rats are the answer.
Edit: I am going to try Sin Collector. It could possible take a damage spell, and if it does whiff that means you can user your creature to block. Probably fail, but will give it a shot.
Mono-Red decks will always be a bit of a tough match up for us. You could add in Cacklers Tenacious Dead to try to get a 1-drop early on, but most people would turn away from both since one is strictly a beater and the other is strictly a chump blocker.
I am hoping to test my deck out tonight. My current variant is as follows.
I am running 2 Ashen Riders in SB with 3 Rescue from the Underworld only as a temporary fix until I can get something better. I like how easy we can cheat things into play, and thought it would be neat to add something that would be even more devastating if it were cheated into play. I know we aren't running Reanimator, but you can't blame a guy for trying, right?
Lately, I have been contemplating removing Read the Bones for something with a bit more staying power. I know I am going to get Illness in the Ranks for my SB to use against MUD to replace Shrivel, but that has to wait a week.
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Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
He says in the video it is far from complete but it's nice to get a sense of what it is capable of. His version doesn't really do anything first 2-3 turns, I think he needs more main-decked spot removal.
He says in the video it is far from complete but it's nice to get a sense of what it is capable of. His version doesn't really do anything first 2-3 turns, I think he needs more main-decked spot removal.
Really dislike this version. It has way too many win conditions, not enough of an early game to get there. I see it working against control, as you have so many huge threats they cant get rid of, but Crypt Ghast and 4 Lili are just wrong.
I am testing the Kentarou Yamamoto Mono-black Devotion list with a few changes to see how they perform.
-1 mutavault +1 Nykthos, I love this card I may want more, so much fun, so many devastating turns where I tear apart the board or their hand, draw some cards, whip some zombies, and drop huge merchant drains.
-2 devour flesh, +1 Liliana +1 abhorrent overlord, So many weenies lately devour is less awesome and hexproof is not really a thing. Lily is hit or miss, need more testing. Overlord might well be win more sometimes, other times pack rat, whip, or nykthos drops an early game ender. With connections, whip, erebos, and lilliana all usually staying on the board he almost always comes with enough harpies to win the game. I like knowing one is in the deck for the late game.
-4 desecration demon +4 liliana's reaver I watched many games in the pro tour highlight the demons weakness of being tapped down during critical turns. I've also been on the bad end of a control'ed demon more than a couple times. Little dudes are appearing more and more. Reaver has a couple advantages over the demon here. The major one is his interaction with whip, he will always gain life on offense or defense during critical turns. A whipped reaver always kills an untapped creature, or better forces discard and then leaves a 2/2 lifelink zombie token, fantastic against control.
Second is devotion, devotion aggro decks don't want to trade, black devotion is fine with trades as it is overpowering later on. They will race a few demon swings if they have too, but racing a reaver is much harder because they lose cards in hand as well as facing a free 2/2 zombie. They also have to leave an untapped blocker behind instead of saccing something that attacked/tapped for mana.
Last is the new interaction with lillianas - ability being sorcery before combat, the opponent has a chance to stop your demon swing when pumping or killing a blocker, reaver will always go ahead with the plan.
Not that a reaver is without drawbacks however, namely RED, all of it, dies to lightning strike and mortars, reckoner has first strike, stormbreath flys over now, and fanatic of mogis gladly trades after punching you in the face. At least red isn't splashed in every other deck now though.
So far I enjoy the new interactions with the reaver but I can't tell if its actually better for the deck more times then not. Anyone else have one too many demon failures and feel like using a more controlable zombie minion? I'd like to hear what it was good/bad against. I'm crossing my fingers for a BB zombie lord in one of the next couple sets lol!
-4 desecration demon +4 liliana's reaver I watched many games in the pro tour highlight the demons weakness of being tapped down during critical turns. I've also been on the bad end of a control'ed demon more than a couple times. Little dudes are appearing more and more. Reaver has a couple advantages over the demon here. The major one is his interaction with whip, he will always gain life on offense or defense during critical turns. A whipped reaver always kills an untapped creature, or better forces discard and then leaves a 2/2 lifelink zombie token, fantastic against control.
Second is devotion, devotion aggro decks don't want to trade, black devotion is fine with trades as it is overpowering later on. They will race a few demon swings if they have too, but racing a reaver is much harder because they lose cards in hand as well as facing a free 2/2 zombie. They also have to leave an untapped blocker behind instead of saccing something that attacked/tapped for mana.
Last is the new interaction with lillianas - ability being sorcery before combat, the opponent has a chance to stop your demon swing when pumping or killing a blocker, reaver will always go ahead with the plan.
Not that a reaver is without drawbacks however, namely RED, all of it, dies to lightning strike and mortars, reckoner has first strike, stormbreath flys over now, and fanatic of mogis gladly trades after punching you in the face. At least red isn't splashed in every other deck now though.
So far I enjoy the new interactions with the reaver but I can't tell if its actually better for the deck more times then not. Anyone else have one too many demon failures and feel like using a more controlable zombie minion? I'd like to hear what it was good/bad against. I'm crossing my fingers for a BB zombie lord in one of the next couple sets lol!
I wish there were a better option honestly. Demon fills a very unique role that I don't think Reaver can take up. We want something at 4 mana with 5 or more toughness that can be good offensively or defensively. Right now, the only thing that fits that is Demon. Reaper of the Wilds is also very good (I'm splashing green), but the double black devotion from demon is more useful I think.
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So the standard event didn't end up happening tonight but I got to get some test games in against BW midrange, BW devotion, Mono U Devotion, and RDW. I also made some changes to the deck which was -2 Doom Blades main board +1 swamp + 1 pack rat, -2 Rakdos's Returns side +2 Doom Blades side.
Pack rat pretty much went the distance every game I saw him in against the BW decks and Mono U. Mono Us only answer to 2+ pack rats is overloaded Cyclonic rift and it's still easy enough to keep them off devotion even with the loss of two removal spells mainboard.
After seeing the mono U play with specter I'm really not liking it at all even though I was considering finding room for him somewhere in my 75. The biggest problem is that he doesn't do anything the turn he comes into play and he doesn't represent a huge threat, and dies or gets stuck in the air way too often. Pack Rat at least can pseudo protect itself by making copies and left unchecked after a couple of turns become unstoppable. Demon has been a house against Mono U since you can just hold removal for Specter and Masters and if they start sacing permanents to keep the demon tapped it makes it way too easy to keep thassa offline.
Mono red went a lot easier tonight, game 1s where still kind of rough at times, but postboard I won every game out of 12. Cures, Doom Blades, and Angers over Returns, Thought Seizes, 1 Rat 1 connections made the matchup a breeze. The fact that Anger exiles Chandra's Pheonix was amazing, and the RDW player still was having trouble finding out a strong sideboard plan against the deck and concluded his best out was Hammer and hoping I didn't see 4+ removal spells before I stabilized with merchant or whip. The Zombies were kept in as blockers and ways to stabilize if I just dropped a whip. And so far the 3 RDW decks I've seen around have all had Boros Reckoner which he hit a few times for value, otherwise I might have sided 1 out over the Connections, but connections is slow against RDW and even the 1 life loss can be relevant, as I've stabilized at 1 life a couple of times, though they were all game 1s, it's still something I keep in mind.
Pithing Needle hurt a couple of times naming swamp (with connections on it) or Whip, but I'm still not sure if I want to include Rakdos Charm in the board for artifact hate. There was a good argument made tonight to throw in 2 Godless shrines and have 2 Wear//Tears in the board, just for the value of being able to get rid of things like Boon Satyr, Detention Sphere, as well as needle, weapons, etc...
Blood Baron and Ghost Dad were never very relevant between Thoughtseize, Mizzium Mortars, and Erebos. I'm definitely keeping 2 in the 75 because I really want to see him against BW and he's easy enough to get active as a creature and his huge butt makes him an amazing blocker that can go on the offensive at will. Whip has proven itself to be an amazing card, and I'm still liking the Lili, but there might be reason to go up to 3 whip because I want to see that card pretty much every game and extras are easily discarded to the rat.
The 25th land really helped, and because I upped the rat count flooding was never a problem as well.
Nothing standard is going to happen until Friday so hopefully I can get some more testing in tomorrow and then see how the deck holds up at FNM and see if there are any changes before game day. Overall I'm pretty happy, I really want to play a lot of games against control before Saturday though.
Quick question for mono-black and Black/white users. I have made a pretty solid B/w deck but mono red aggro is giving me fits. They just do more damage to me before i can get out my whip... or obzedat or blood baron.
Even with 4 hero's down fall and 4 pharika's cure and 4 doom blades, it's not enough.
What are other people using? I looked through almost all the cards and can't find anything in black or white that might help me on turn 2 or 3 for aggro (like a centaur healer or something...).
Anyway, any help would be appreciated!
BTW, against mid-range and control the B/W deck is boss.
Crossposting from the B/W thread, we've basically come to an agreement that Soldier of the Pantheon and either Precinct Captain or High Priest of Penance (depending on how your deck's mana base is) can really help stop aggro attacks. Soldier will safely block and kill Rakdos Cackler and Burning-Tree Emissary, give you life from them casting these and other cards, or eat a burn spell that could kill something else. Captain will safely kill nearly any RDW creature, and can hit players to generate tokens, but is the hardest to cast and is most vulnerable to removal. High Priest can potentially 2-for-1, can't be Doom Bladed, and cannot be burned away safely except on an empty board (and if their board is empty on T2+, they may be in trouble already). Soldier and Priest are not dead in midrange either, especially Priest. Control is another matter, but you can side them out and B/W has no issues with control anyway. Yoked Ox is also an option.
The point is to quickly play creatures that are awkward for the aggro player and use them to stall until you can get your fatties and lifegain creatures online. B/W doesn't have access to early boardwipes like Supreme Verdict or Anger of the Gods (we have a mighty one in Merciless Eviction, but it's CMC 6), so we have to make do white's more protective creatures. These guys, coupled with cheap removal like Doom Blade, should get you there.
He says in the video it is far from complete but it's nice to get a sense of what it is capable of. His version doesn't really do anything first 2-3 turns, I think he needs more main-decked spot removal.
Well , the only thing i liked from this , is the orzhov to put gray in your hand , im not sure if you can take back creatures reanimated with the whip too. But i think it could work
IM having this crazy idea , to put resonator in the deck. I know , im crazy
But resonator with lifbebane , gray merchant , reaver , specter , shadowborn ,Overlord, high priest , etc...seems nice , actually insane with gray merchant. And nykhtos make it easier.
Idk , i dont even have a spot in my deck ,but just want to put this out lol
Crossposting from the B/W thread, we've basically come to an agreement that Soldier of the Pantheon and either Precinct Captain or High Priest of Penance (depending on how your deck's mana base is) can really help stop aggro attacks. Soldier will safely block and kill Rakdos Cackler and Burning-Tree Emissary, give you life from them casting these and other cards, or eat a burn spell that could kill something else. Captain will safely kill nearly any RDW creature, and can hit players to generate tokens, but is the hardest to cast and is most vulnerable to removal. High Priest can potentially 2-for-1, can't be Doom Bladed, and cannot be burned away safely except on an empty board (and if their board is empty on T2+, they may be in trouble already). Soldier and Priest are not dead in midrange either, especially Priest. Control is another matter, but you can side them out and B/W has no issues with control anyway. Yoked Ox is also an option.
The point is to quickly play creatures that are awkward for the aggro player and use them to stall until you can get your fatties and lifegain creatures online. B/W doesn't have access to early boardwipes like Supreme Verdict or Anger of the Gods (we have a mighty one in Merciless Eviction, but it's CMC 6), so we have to make do white's more protective creatures. These guys, coupled with cheap removal like Doom Blade, should get you there.
Thanks for the info. I think I found the card.... sin collector. Against Red it does a lot of work. It either takes a spell from them (and u get to see there hand) or , if they have no spells, it is a 2/1 blocker that can usually trade with one of there creatures.
That, coupled with good luck on my end and some medium to poor luck on my opponents end, made mtgo matches swing in my favor last night.
- Makes sure you hit land drops, which is more important then it looks in a deck packing Gray Merchant of Asphodel and, possibly, Abhorrent Overlord to boot.
- Gives you extra cards that you can dump to Crypt Rat.
- Given the proper board state, Liliana is the only card that can genuinely kill a God. That counts for the coolness factor of it at the very least. Other then that, it can be used as removal, but I'm not sure you would want to do that over the first ability, since these decks already pack a metric ton of removal to begin with.
Have people been testing Mogis's Marauder? Seems like he might have a shot in a more aggressive devotion list.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I take it you mean Pack Rat?
Great summary, nonetheless. I’ll have to give her a try.
I'm building a B/W Devotion to Black deck, would welcome some criticisms!
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Underworld Connections
2 Dark Prophecy
3 Whip of Erebos
3 Return from the Underworld
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Creatures: 18
2 Pack Rat
2 Sin Collector
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Shadowborn Demon
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Abhorent Overlord
1 Ashen Rider
1 Sepulchrul Primordial
4 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Secrets
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
14 Swamps
I'm not using Desecration Demon, don't really have a good excuse for it other than the fact that Erebos might be better - not sure myself as I only just picked up the two Erebos' and not sure how good they are. Pack Rat was my most recent addition that proved to be very powerful for dumping creatures into the yard.
I'm looking for a good white spell to try out - any ideas? So far I have tried Gift of Immortality which is hilarious when used on a Gray Merchant but otherwise its sort of ungainly.
Even with 4 hero's down fall and 4 pharika's cure and 4 doom blades, it's not enough.
What are other people using? I looked through almost all the cards and can't find anything in black or white that might help me on turn 2 or 3 for aggro (like a centaur healer or something...).
Anyway, any help would be appreciated!
BTW, against mid-range and control the B/w deck is boss.
Dunno, the removal package you've described should stop most of their early game rushes dead. The only "oddball" is that Rakdos Cackler doesn't die to Doom Blade.
Are you having problems with the early creature rush, or their burning you out before you've stabilized?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Couple things, 3 whips might be too much (since you can't play duplicates). Dark Prophecy seems like a cool card in theory, but in play it just isn't that good (plus you only have 18 creatures).
You might want to swap out a couple of those cards and look at more removal since you have some higher casting cost cards that need the game to go a little longer so you can play them. That's my noob magic players 2 cents
Maybe last night was just bad luck... but it really was the early creature rush. Turn 1 cackler into turn 2 emmisary and then either a magma jet or another creature. So my turn 2 i can kill one, but they will then play a chandras phoenix or something.
A few games I won, and a couple lasted long enough that my blood baron did some work, but most of the time I was just getting hosed...
Even if we have 16 removal spells, they still have 20+ creatures, plus it's not like our 3 drops are loxidon smiter big, they are 3/2's or 2/3's, stuff within Lightning Strike range.
Let me introduce High Priest of Penance. He is going nowhere without taking a creature with him unless they have a Firefist Striker but no creature is helpful in that situation.
Yeah I pretty much have the same issue, aggro is a hard match-up and sometimes comes down to whether they can kill you before you play a Merchant or not. Whip makes a difference too as you can bring out lifelinked defenders to kill their dudes.
Returned Phalanx is maybe worth trying if you are looking for a bigger body although I feel I would only use him if I was cutting blue.
I don't actually cast those big dudes unless I'm doing some crazy Nykthos stuff, not sure if you noticed the 3 Return from the Underworld? This is why I am using Sin Collector as I value ETB effects pretty heavily.
You got me on the land count, I'll fix that as well as add another Pack Rat which is a great card if you get flooded out.
What I'm really curious about though is Erebos vs Desecration Demon, I'm not sold the Demon is better as Erebos - gotta playtest more to find out!
Hmm, 1) I only have 8 white sources (the splash is very small), 2) i am not sure why they wouldn't still attack, even if they kill it, it is like a creature got doom bladed. If that single card stops them from attacking me I think the red decks operator is a baddie. (i guess on the play it might be a decent 2 drop, but on the draw they have already got an attack in).
Pack rat is pretty much unbeatable for non-devotion type mono red decks. If you're running bw high priest of penance is extrememly strong against the type of deck that only tries to attack you down. Both of these should be utilized along with a strong removal package. High priest will always trade with their best creature and can't be burned if they have a creature (you shouldn't play him on an empty board, ever), if its 1 guy against 1 guy its obviously a mediocre ability. But if it trades up for something like a boros reckoner or firefist striker you should be pretty happy about that.
The reason you are struggling with aggro is you are constantly 1 for 1ing their threats and can never gain card advantage or keep up if you happen to not draw desecration demon or another finisher.
He is a beast , but against aggro decks and decks like monogreen he is a problem. They re always tapping him. and he is our hope.
If you want to splash white , try alms beast with erebos.
They have more threats than I have answers.. and it's not like we can generate card advantage early (I am thinking maybe Shrivel might work, so in that case you would).
I did play pack rats one turn, but it was on the draw, so it was a 1/1 on turn 2, they go at me with ash zealot and cackler, i can't block. next turn i make another rat, they burn it and come at me with a phoenix. I don't think pack rats are the answer.
Edit: I am going to try Sin Collector. It could possible take a damage spell, and if it does whiff that means you can user your creature to block. Probably fail, but will give it a shot.
I am hoping to test my deck out tonight. My current variant is as follows.
24 Swamp
Creatures
4 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Erebos, God of Death
1 Abhorrent Overlord
4 Read the Bones
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Underworld Connections
2 Doom Blade
2 Devour Flesh
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Rescue from the Underworld
2 Ashen Rider
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Shrivel
2 Quag Sickness
1 Corrupt
1 Ratchet Bomb
I am running 2 Ashen Riders in SB with 3 Rescue from the Underworld only as a temporary fix until I can get something better. I like how easy we can cheat things into play, and thought it would be neat to add something that would be even more devastating if it were cheated into play. I know we aren't running Reanimator, but you can't blame a guy for trying, right?
Lately, I have been contemplating removing Read the Bones for something with a bit more staying power. I know I am going to get Illness in the Ranks for my SB to use against MUD to replace Shrivel, but that has to wait a week.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
like that elvish mystic would make difference , or that burning-tree , or that 1/1 token. Its advantage for them.
Gray is too, for sure.
He says in the video it is far from complete but it's nice to get a sense of what it is capable of. His version doesn't really do anything first 2-3 turns, I think he needs more main-decked spot removal.
Really dislike this version. It has way too many win conditions, not enough of an early game to get there. I see it working against control, as you have so many huge threats they cant get rid of, but Crypt Ghast and 4 Lili are just wrong.
-1 mutavault +1 Nykthos, I love this card I may want more, so much fun, so many devastating turns where I tear apart the board or their hand, draw some cards, whip some zombies, and drop huge merchant drains.
-2 devour flesh, +1 Liliana +1 abhorrent overlord, So many weenies lately devour is less awesome and hexproof is not really a thing. Lily is hit or miss, need more testing. Overlord might well be win more sometimes, other times pack rat, whip, or nykthos drops an early game ender. With connections, whip, erebos, and lilliana all usually staying on the board he almost always comes with enough harpies to win the game. I like knowing one is in the deck for the late game.
-4 desecration demon +4 liliana's reaver I watched many games in the pro tour highlight the demons weakness of being tapped down during critical turns. I've also been on the bad end of a control'ed demon more than a couple times. Little dudes are appearing more and more. Reaver has a couple advantages over the demon here. The major one is his interaction with whip, he will always gain life on offense or defense during critical turns. A whipped reaver always kills an untapped creature, or better forces discard and then leaves a 2/2 lifelink zombie token, fantastic against control.
Second is devotion, devotion aggro decks don't want to trade, black devotion is fine with trades as it is overpowering later on. They will race a few demon swings if they have too, but racing a reaver is much harder because they lose cards in hand as well as facing a free 2/2 zombie. They also have to leave an untapped blocker behind instead of saccing something that attacked/tapped for mana.
Last is the new interaction with lillianas - ability being sorcery before combat, the opponent has a chance to stop your demon swing when pumping or killing a blocker, reaver will always go ahead with the plan.
Not that a reaver is without drawbacks however, namely RED, all of it, dies to lightning strike and mortars, reckoner has first strike, stormbreath flys over now, and fanatic of mogis gladly trades after punching you in the face. At least red isn't splashed in every other deck now though.
So far I enjoy the new interactions with the reaver but I can't tell if its actually better for the deck more times then not. Anyone else have one too many demon failures and feel like using a more controlable zombie minion? I'd like to hear what it was good/bad against. I'm crossing my fingers for a BB zombie lord in one of the next couple sets lol!
I wish there were a better option honestly. Demon fills a very unique role that I don't think Reaver can take up. We want something at 4 mana with 5 or more toughness that can be good offensively or defensively. Right now, the only thing that fits that is Demon. Reaper of the Wilds is also very good (I'm splashing green), but the double black devotion from demon is more useful I think.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
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Pack rat pretty much went the distance every game I saw him in against the BW decks and Mono U. Mono Us only answer to 2+ pack rats is overloaded Cyclonic rift and it's still easy enough to keep them off devotion even with the loss of two removal spells mainboard.
After seeing the mono U play with specter I'm really not liking it at all even though I was considering finding room for him somewhere in my 75. The biggest problem is that he doesn't do anything the turn he comes into play and he doesn't represent a huge threat, and dies or gets stuck in the air way too often. Pack Rat at least can pseudo protect itself by making copies and left unchecked after a couple of turns become unstoppable. Demon has been a house against Mono U since you can just hold removal for Specter and Masters and if they start sacing permanents to keep the demon tapped it makes it way too easy to keep thassa offline.
Mono red went a lot easier tonight, game 1s where still kind of rough at times, but postboard I won every game out of 12. Cures, Doom Blades, and Angers over Returns, Thought Seizes, 1 Rat 1 connections made the matchup a breeze. The fact that Anger exiles Chandra's Pheonix was amazing, and the RDW player still was having trouble finding out a strong sideboard plan against the deck and concluded his best out was Hammer and hoping I didn't see 4+ removal spells before I stabilized with merchant or whip. The Zombies were kept in as blockers and ways to stabilize if I just dropped a whip. And so far the 3 RDW decks I've seen around have all had Boros Reckoner which he hit a few times for value, otherwise I might have sided 1 out over the Connections, but connections is slow against RDW and even the 1 life loss can be relevant, as I've stabilized at 1 life a couple of times, though they were all game 1s, it's still something I keep in mind.
Pithing Needle hurt a couple of times naming swamp (with connections on it) or Whip, but I'm still not sure if I want to include Rakdos Charm in the board for artifact hate. There was a good argument made tonight to throw in 2 Godless shrines and have 2 Wear//Tears in the board, just for the value of being able to get rid of things like Boon Satyr, Detention Sphere, as well as needle, weapons, etc...
Blood Baron and Ghost Dad were never very relevant between Thoughtseize, Mizzium Mortars, and Erebos. I'm definitely keeping 2 in the 75 because I really want to see him against BW and he's easy enough to get active as a creature and his huge butt makes him an amazing blocker that can go on the offensive at will. Whip has proven itself to be an amazing card, and I'm still liking the Lili, but there might be reason to go up to 3 whip because I want to see that card pretty much every game and extras are easily discarded to the rat.
The 25th land really helped, and because I upped the rat count flooding was never a problem as well.
Nothing standard is going to happen until Friday so hopefully I can get some more testing in tomorrow and then see how the deck holds up at FNM and see if there are any changes before game day. Overall I'm pretty happy, I really want to play a lot of games against control before Saturday though.
Crossposting from the B/W thread, we've basically come to an agreement that Soldier of the Pantheon and either Precinct Captain or High Priest of Penance (depending on how your deck's mana base is) can really help stop aggro attacks. Soldier will safely block and kill Rakdos Cackler and Burning-Tree Emissary, give you life from them casting these and other cards, or eat a burn spell that could kill something else. Captain will safely kill nearly any RDW creature, and can hit players to generate tokens, but is the hardest to cast and is most vulnerable to removal. High Priest can potentially 2-for-1, can't be Doom Bladed, and cannot be burned away safely except on an empty board (and if their board is empty on T2+, they may be in trouble already). Soldier and Priest are not dead in midrange either, especially Priest. Control is another matter, but you can side them out and B/W has no issues with control anyway. Yoked Ox is also an option.
The point is to quickly play creatures that are awkward for the aggro player and use them to stall until you can get your fatties and lifegain creatures online. B/W doesn't have access to early boardwipes like Supreme Verdict or Anger of the Gods (we have a mighty one in Merciless Eviction, but it's CMC 6), so we have to make do white's more protective creatures. These guys, coupled with cheap removal like Doom Blade, should get you there.
Well , the only thing i liked from this , is the orzhov to put gray in your hand , im not sure if you can take back creatures reanimated with the whip too. But i think it could work
IM having this crazy idea , to put resonator in the deck. I know , im crazy
But resonator with lifbebane , gray merchant , reaver , specter , shadowborn ,Overlord, high priest , etc...seems nice , actually insane with gray merchant. And nykhtos make it easier.
Idk , i dont even have a spot in my deck ,but just want to put this out lol
Thanks for the info. I think I found the card.... sin collector. Against Red it does a lot of work. It either takes a spell from them (and u get to see there hand) or , if they have no spells, it is a 2/1 blocker that can usually trade with one of there creatures.
That, coupled with good luck on my end and some medium to poor luck on my opponents end, made mtgo matches swing in my favor last night.