With Mono Black doing so well, there is bound to be some hate cards in everyone's sideboard. Some few contenders they might add in:
Erebos, God of the Dead: This hoses our lifegain, but other than that it's manageable as long as we weren't behind when it hit. I can't see it being used unless it's a mirror match. Slaughter Games: Naming Gary will hurt pretty hard. It's not going to be seen at all, but it's potentially the biggest threat. Planar Cleansing: It might actually start seeing some play.
There's also a lot of removals against Whip, but the deck is still manageable without it.
Anything else I'm missing? The deck is so well rounded that there's nothing much that can hurt but it's worth looking into what people will try using.
With Mono Black doing so well, there is bound to be some hate cards in everyone's sideboard. Some few contenders they might add in:
Erebos, God of the Dead: This hoses our lifegain, but other than that it's manageable as long as we weren't behind when it hit. I can't see it being used unless it's a mirror match. Slaughter Games: Naming Gary will hurt pretty hard. It's not going to be seen at all, but it's potentially the biggest threat. Planar Cleansing: It might actually start seeing some play.
There's also a lot of removals against Whip, but the deck is still manageable without it.
Anything else I'm missing? The deck is so well rounded that there's nothing much that can hurt but it's worth looking into what people will try using.
I did see Slaughter Games during game day and expect to see it more because at least in my experience we offer WBR a really hard match.
As for another anecdotical happenstance, what do you think of Liliana of the Dark Realms? I ran 2 during game day and she saved me from Thassa twice. The other gods I don't really care about as long as I can control their board, but being able to kill Thassa's card advantage helped me a lot against MUD and so I value Liliana highly.
Also, what do you think of sideboarding Blood Baron of Vizkopa, it made the match unwinnable to Esper and WBR during that day and I expect to see a lot of Espers in my LGS.
So I went to another standard event tonight and ended up 3-1, the 1 loss was due to suboptimal play and poor sideboarding decisions.
Round 1 was against Mono U Devotion
Game 1 he just came out of the gates and I stumbled on lands and made the mistake of not keeping removal open for MoWs.
Game 2 was really close he got me to 2 life. But an active Specter on my side let me hit like 5 spells from the top of his library and he kept seeing mana pockets underneath. I eventually got an Island to start casting his stuff but all I needed was the rapid hybridization against the specter he played his previous turn to keep Thassa off.
Game 3 I saw like 10 removal spells and kept him off his game plan all day while I slowly built up towards dropping double demon and a merchant to finish him off.
Match 2 was against UG midrange/ramp
Game 1 was really awkward when I thoughtseized his hand seeing temple of mystery, a couple of lands a couple of mana dorks and a polukranos. So I took the polukranos and then started killing his dorks to keep him off big mana. Eventually he dropped a Seedborne Teferi and started to take the game away as I ran low on removal and he started dropping Arbor Colossus and Kalonian Hydras, and Primespeakers.
Game 2 I just boarded all my removal in as well as lifebane zombie, while taking out pack rat (which was a huge mistake) and a couple of specters and thoughtseizes. Game two I fortunately was able to just 1 for 1 him on removal, kill his prophet at instant speed the turn it came out, drop a connections, and just slowly grind out the game with card advantage until I could just take him out with a Demon.
Game 3 was when I realized pack rat would have been amazing against his deck because it's very slow and clunky out of the gates and his deck had 0 outs to a turn 2 pack rat, especially with just a little bit of removal back up for Polukranos. Unfortunately him being on the play again and me being bad and tapping out for Underworld Connections on turn 3 just to see him play Prophet led to getting overwhelmed by big monsters.
Round 3 was against Mono Green devotion.
After my experiences with the UG ramp deck I ended up taking this match pretty easily. He also kept awkward hands game 1 and 3 that let me punish him hard for stumbling on his early land drops while relying on mana dorks. Game 2 he just came out of the gates fast and was able to Arbor Colossus my Desecration demon away and then sack dorks to it if I whipped it back. No Gary's that game hurt as well.
Round 4 Was against Rakdos Aggro.
Game 1 was horrifying when he went turn 1 Cackler. Turn 2 Ash Zealot, Turn 3 Ash Zealot Cackler. My only out to not dying was to turn 2 pack rat turn 3 discard to make a pack rat and trade with the 2 cacklers but he had the lightning strike to prevent that play.
Game 2 I sided in every single removal spell including the dark betrayal and it definitely got there as I was able to kill every threat, land a connections, CA him out into dropping Demons, Whips and Gary's.
Game 3 was like Game 2, except a turn 4 demon into turn 5 whip while I killed off his first 2 creatures on turn 3/4 left him with a pitiful board that was soon wiped out by a couple of timely top decked removal spells and Demon just took me so far ahead in life he couldn't come back.
Overall I'm liking the matchup against aggro. I really am wanting to cut that 4th packrat in the board for another Lifebane Zombie still, I also really am trying to learn when the best time to go all in on the pack rat plan is because it's a very delicate play that can either win you the game outright or cause a blow out and make you lose an otherwise winnable game.
So your suggestion is to be a ****tier version of any of the multiple aggro decks in the format and forego removal and CA engines for mediocre creatures that get outclassed extremely quickly and die to burn?
Sounds exactly like what he's trying to say. What a hardcore player.
To rehash my original post in this topic, since it seems literally nobody actually read it anyway when I didn't even have one person want to discuss the direction I took with the idea of "black devotion," this is my decklist:
Thing is, it's not a mediocre aggro deck. It's marginally worse than Mono-Red aggro in pure speed, which runs a very similar but maybe slightly better aggro package (Cackler = Cackler, Hero ? Satyr, Zealot > Shred-Freak) and a cheaper devotion-based Fireball (Fanatic of Mogis vs Merchant). The trade-off is worthwhile, though, two huge card advantage engines and much better game against other aggro decks: my one-drop doesn't gnaw at my life total and a drain swings twice the total life as a burn spell. And I still outspeed everything else!
Not sure this applies to devotion decks. Blocking won't cut it against an active Purphoros, Fanatic trigger, or even an inactive Thassa. All of our staple creatures eat lightning or get swung past by blue/red. So mostly I just jam removal in place of the weaker creatures.
I feel like removal is pretty bad right now, which is a major reason I went the aggro route with black devotion. Wring Flesh is pretty bad as the only real 1cc removal spell at our disposal. At :2mana:, Devour Flesh doesn't target (good against control's singular threats, not so good against Polukranos with a mana dork on board), Doom Blade and Ultimate Price both have self-evident weaknesses. Everything else requires a splash (and even Dreadbore, which is otherwise the one universal < 3cc, is Sorcery speed :P) and/or is too expensive (3+) to rely on against aggro.
So how else can aggro be handled? If removal is bad, I'll just play dudes myself. Not much difference between plopping a TKA down to block something than it is Doom Blading it, after all. Card advantage engines and Gray Merchant keeping life up will ensure the victory in due time. And instead of a ton of dead cards that don't contribute to devotion against control, you can just spew weenies downs and smash them in the face. Who cares if they eat removal? Doom Blade isn't helping you any more than "removed creature." At least the creature does something if it isn't removed and when they do, that's one less card in hand they can bluff being a counterspell or whatever. Then you out-CA them anyway with your enchants and Fireball them for 10 in the face with Gray Merchant for the win.
To rehash my original post in this topic, since it seems literally nobody actually read it anyway when I didn't even have one person want to discuss the direction I took with the idea of "black devotion," this is my decklist:
Thing is, it's not a mediocre aggro deck. It's marginally worse than Mono-Red aggro in pure speed, which runs a very similar but maybe slightly better aggro package (Cackler = Cackler, Hero ? Satyr, Zealot > Shred-Freak) and a cheaper devotion-based Fireball (Fanatic of Mogis vs Merchant). The trade-off is worthwhile, though, two huge card advantage engines and much better game against other aggro decks: my one-drop doesn't gnaw at my life total and a drain swings twice the total life as a burn spell. And I still outspeed everything else!
Just an opinion, but I would run Mogis's Marauder over Dark Prophecy. I essentially can drop it turn three or four and get by any blockers for a big chunk of damage and let Gary take care of the rest the next turn. Sacrificing two devotion is worth the possible 3-5+ damage early on.
I feel like removal is pretty bad right now, which is a major reason I went the aggro route with black devotion. Wring Flesh is pretty bad as the only real 1cc removal spell at our disposal. At :2mana:, Devour Flesh doesn't target (good against control's singular threats, not so good against Polukranos with a mana dork on board), Doom Blade and Ultimate Price both have self-evident weaknesses. Everything else requires a splash (and even Dreadbore, which is otherwise the one universal < 3cc, is Sorcery speed :P) and/or is too expensive (3+) to rely on against aggro.
So how else can aggro be handled? If removal is bad, I'll just play dudes myself. Not much difference between plopping a TKA down to block something than it is Doom Blading it, after all. Card advantage engines and Gray Merchant keeping life up will ensure the victory in due time. And instead of a ton of dead cards that don't contribute to devotion against control, you can just spew weenies downs and smash them in the face. Who cares if they eat removal? Doom Blade isn't helping you any more than "removed creature." At least the creature does something if it isn't removed and when they do, that's one less card in hand they can bluff being a counterspell or whatever. Then you out-CA them anyway with your enchants and Fireball them for 10 in the face with Gray Merchant for the win.
Well, I don't really agree that removal is bad, but I suppose we don't have Tragic Slip around anymore. With a BR or BG splash you have particularly excellent removal.
I was addressing the idea of jamming in more creatures to combat aggro from a sideboarding perspective of midrange devotion; if you already have an aggressive creature-based deck it will be a very different perspective to begin with. That creature base is great for clogging up the board against aggro; many of the creatures midrange devotion lists are running are not very good at that.
To rehash my original post in this topic, since it seems literally nobody actually read it anyway when I didn't even have one person want to discuss the direction I took with the idea of "black devotion," this is my decklist:
Thing is, it's not a mediocre aggro deck. It's marginally worse than Mono-Red aggro in pure speed, which runs a very similar but maybe slightly better aggro package (Cackler = Cackler, Hero ? Satyr, Zealot > Shred-Freak) and a cheaper devotion-based Fireball (Fanatic of Mogis vs Merchant). The trade-off is worthwhile, though, two huge card advantage engines and much better game against other aggro decks: my one-drop doesn't gnaw at my life total and a drain swings twice the total life as a burn spell. And I still outspeed everything else!
Also, as per Psiven...
I feel like removal is pretty bad right now, which is a major reason I went the aggro route with black devotion. Wring Flesh is pretty bad as the only real 1cc removal spell at our disposal. At :2mana:, Devour Flesh doesn't target (good against control's singular threats, not so good against Polukranos with a mana dork on board), Doom Blade and Ultimate Price both have self-evident weaknesses. Everything else requires a splash (and even Dreadbore, which is otherwise the one universal < 3cc, is Sorcery speed :P) and/or is too expensive (3+) to rely on against aggro.
So how else can aggro be handled? If removal is bad, I'll just play dudes myself. Not much difference between plopping a TKA down to block something than it is Doom Blading it, after all. Card advantage engines and Gray Merchant keeping life up will ensure the victory in due time. And instead of a ton of dead cards that don't contribute to devotion against control, you can just spew weenies downs and smash them in the face. Who cares if they eat removal? Doom Blade isn't helping you any more than "removed creature." At least the creature does something if it isn't removed and when they do, that's one less card in hand they can bluff being a counterspell or whatever. Then you out-CA them anyway with your enchants and Fireball them for 10 in the face with Gray Merchant for the win.
This deck looks fine, but honestly I don't see the use of having 4 Dark Prophecy in this list. Maybe 2, but I would honestly run zero and play Lifebane Zombies instead. Lifebane will destroy GW and GR decks, and against every other deck, he does insane damage. He should be in the mainboard, and move Dark Prophecy to the side for control matchups. Even Mogis Marauder would be better I think, like TBuzzsaw said.
Not to be a party pooper but I'm too busy playing Pokemon Y and trying to grind Diamond rank in League of Legends for this Magic stuff lately, you guys should tinker with it yourselves and maybe get something better. I mostly wanted to defend the first guy and get some discussion going in a new direction, which was glossed over the first time I posted.
I'd try out Marauder if I was playing more Magic lately, probably not over Prophecy though. Maybe I'm latching too hard onto it since that's pretty much the other big reason I have the cheap aggro package (enabling Prophecy, which itself is the deck's best devotion enabler) but maybe take out a Whip, drop a Shred-Freak or two to make room for them. Prophecy is good against both aggro and control, the former for favorable combat and the latter for removal protection. At the very least I want more than four total Prophecy + Connections to ensure reliable sources of card advantage. I think Prophecy is better because it can start working immediately if you curve into it and it's +1 devotion, though I understand if others like Connections more (can stop using it if your life total is in danger, early Nykthos can pay for the colorless).
Also, the sideboard could use some work but I never really concerned myself too much with really trying to fix it. Liliana is really my big question there, though Thoughtseize I'm surprisingly meh about. Dark Betrayal is actually quite good, I'd add a third if I was less lazy about it.
Matchup-wise as requested:
Blue Devotion, no idea. I'd probably like more removal for Master of Waves but otherwise I don't see the problem here. My aggro package is much stronger, card advantage more consistent. Cyclonic Rift overload is notable as "mass permanent removal" of sorts but probably not horrendous to deal with unless it enables a Master of Waves alpha strike. *shrug* You spend one turn getting your devotion back and the next splurging your hand back down, plus nobody wants to bounce a Merchant.
Mono-Red is a cakewalk. I'm faster on the play. I have enough bodies on the draw to avoid taking too much damage and Prophecy makes all trades profitable for me. They fold to the life swing provided by the curvetoppers, if my card advantage doesn't simply flood and out-race them.
GR is a more fair matchup. They blunt the aggro assault with fast fatties, which I don't have much removal for either, and their PWs provide CA while making me waste time swinging at them if I don't have Downfall in hand. On the other hand, they can't really do much about me chumping all day with Prophecy on the board and Gray Merchant is a tough-to-answer gamechanger.
Related note, WW (or red splash; not Boros) is probably the toughest aggro matchup. It's difficult to profitably trade with their guys in combat since First Strike blockers and Reckoner just eat your **** up defensively, while Brave the Elements usually means you can't even block them on offense. Gray Merchant is still god-damn amazing, though.
Control is nothing, except when you don't draw one Merchant after 35 cards and die to multiples of your own Prophecy. Control with Red (WUR, WRB) has some game because Anger of the Gods doesn't trigger Prophecy and dipping low on life sometimes ends with a couple hoarded burn spells to the face if you go too long without landing a Merchant. WUR is probably the tougher of the two, because they have Sphinx's Rev for counter-CA and dipping too low on life from our own engines occasionally means getting burned out by hoarded Helices, but WRB has Blood Baron. Still not that hard but not Mono-Red levels of easy like UW/UB/Esper.
It's just that you have a deck that's an aggro shell. A card that gives them all haste and intimidate is better than an enchantment that does nothing when you play it and waits around for a creature to die or Gary to drop. I'm not sure how the card is good against aggro when it's forcing you to lose life.
If you were going to use the card, I would try pairing it up with Xathrid Necromancer so there's at least some value of getting more cards when most of your creatures are humans.
MR. E, that list is pretty bonkers from what I have played so far, granted, I did drop Prophecy for Mogis's Marauder and the deck is so much more explosive. I felt like Marauder is just too good at getting around the walls GR drops and makes lethal from a Merchant so much more plausible earlier in the game.
I really dig the list so far. I is pretty robust against your typical Mono Black as well because it can just completely explode and then dump out dudes to stop Demons from blocking or swinging and you can generally build up a faster Devotion for a merchant than your opponent and it is more devastating as they already took damage from it as well. The deck also plays really well off their own Thoughtseizes.
I ran a list similar to Mr. E's some weeks ago (-4 Tormented Hero, -4 Thrill-Kill, -2 Dark Prophesy, +3 Deathcult Rogue, +4 Mogis's Marauder, +3 Civic Saber), it didn't work. It folded hard to american superfriends, Selesnya and big red. Granted, those decks aren't around anymore and this build may be very good at racing MUD, but I rather prefer the removal suite's stability of being able to play control or aggro without loosing the reins instead of trying to race the racers.
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Disciple is a narrower card than it appears. Thoughtseize is certainly the best discard spell, but costs life. Duress is good for everything but creatures. So the only reason to play Disciple is if you a) really want a 1/3 body with BB devotion, b) can't afford to lose life but can afford to use 4 mana on it, and/or c) want to hit creatures with more than 4 slots of discard.
Against removal heavy decks, it should only potentially be discard spell #9-12 because the others might actually help when you're behind on board to their full hand of removal.
So I would say it's a defensive choice against decks with little removal. If you feel that DD is being a liability in the matchup and anticipate the discard to be more relevant than the offensive threat, it's worth it. I made that call against Mono Blue last weekend and felt good with it, but I don't feel like it deserves main deck slots in any meta and I've since run out of space in the sideboard for it.
Saying a creature with an ETB ability is narrow is just horrible. Its like your trying to compare it to a vanilla creature. Against decks that just go bigger the 1/3 body stalls and it peels a card you dont want to see from the hand to boot. Id rather have that and peel a boon sayter out of an opponents hand then duress for nothing now holding a doom blade for BS (lol). Against an opponent top decking anything that forces a discard becomes a dead card but with this deck you should be winning if thats happening and playing disciple becomes less relevant and you can use it for pack rats to power out the win. Understanding what cards are important and for how long is key. I play a set of rats and when my opponent starts top decking or i have a chance to do some damage ill chuck it instead and whip it back later if needed.
Discard devotion is pretty much what i run. If liliana's Caress were legal id play that some where in my 75 causeof the amount of discard in the deck
Do you guys thought about any splash? I've been splashing red for Dreadbores, Slaughter Game on the SB and Anger of the Gods running a total of 12 red mana sources (8 duals, 4 mountains).
Do you guys think this is viable and if it does, what color would you splash for ?
Do you guys thought about any splash? I've been splashing red for Dreadbores, Slaughter Game on the SB and Anger of the Gods running a total of 12 red mana sources (8 duals, 4 mountains).
Do you guys think this is viable and if it does, what color would you splash for ?
I played a red splash variant on MTGO last night with Mono Blue and wrecked it. I think Mono Black is probably where you want to be, the splashes take away from what makes the deck function so well. I beat the splash variants almost every time, where I lose to the straight black variants a little more often.
I also feel like the Mono Black Aggro variant is where you probably want to be at this juncture, just because it offers the same game premise with a faster clock, which means your matches against Mono Black are a lot easier and it is not a complete grind or session of trading hay-makers back and forth.
I played a red splash variant on MTGO last night with Mono Blue and wrecked it. I think Mono Black is probably where you want to be, the splashes take away from what makes the deck function so well. I beat the splash variants almost every time, where I lose to the straight black variants a little more often.
I also feel like the Mono Black Aggro variant is where you probably want to be at this juncture, just because it offers the same game premise with a faster clock, which means your matches against Mono Black are a lot easier and it is not a complete grind or session of trading hay-makers back and forth.
I recall also seeing coverage of a deck like it last weekend which had Desecration Demon in it, which was a lot slower and it lost to Bw Devotion if I recall.
I have a few suggestions for potential sideboard cards:
Illness in the Ranks: Useful against Wave tokens, and adds a bit to devotion which is always good in this deck. Hurts our own Pack Rats though, so I'm wary of including this
Ogre Slumlord: Shares CMC with Gray Merchant of Asphodel, however it synergizes well with Pack Rat as well as the myriad creature removal that runs rampant in this deck. Slumlord might also be better to play before Gray Merchant given the extra 2 to Devotion.
Shrivel: Maybe I'm overly worried about Blue devotion, but this can be another answer to a player who gets out a boatload of Wave tokens
I think running a splash depends on what you hope to get out of it. BR for Dreadbore, Rakdos's Return, SB Slaughter Games and Mizzium Mortars is getting very strong spells while only slightly stunting early turn mana. I think if control decks start running 4x Blood Baron we are going to be leaning that way to keep our advantage. Anger though, is a significant strain on the mana base which will hurt overall consistency. Probably worth sideboarding if you do run BR, but it won't be a silver bullet. Same goes for BG - Abrupt Decay and Putrefy are great, but if I run Kalonian Hydra I'd better have a really compelling argument that it wins a matchup by itself.
I don't think that main decking different colored permanents or double colored spells is where you usually want to go with a black devotion deck, but utility spells that shore up weaknesses? That's very attractive.
I have a few suggestions for potential sideboard cards:
Illness in the Ranks: Useful against Wave tokens, and adds a bit to devotion which is always good in this deck. Hurts our own Pack Rats though, so I'm wary of including this
Ogre Slumlord: Shares CMC with Gray Merchant of Asphodel, however it synergizes well with Pack Rat as well as the myriad creature removal that runs rampant in this deck. Slumlord might also be better to play before Gray Merchant given the extra 2 to Devotion.
Shrivel: Maybe I'm overly worried about Blue devotion, but this can be another answer to a player who gets out a boatload of Wave tokens
The only tokens that matter can be taken care of by using Doom Blade on Master.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I think running a splash depends on what you hope to get out of it. BR for Dreadbore, Rakdos's Return, SB Slaughter Games and Mizzium Mortars is getting very strong spells while only slightly stunting early turn mana. I think if control decks start running 4x Blood Baron we are going to be leaning that way to keep our advantage. Anger though, is a significant strain on the mana base which will hurt overall consistency. Probably worth sideboarding if you do run BR, but it won't be a silver bullet. Same goes for BG - Abrupt Decay and Putrefy are great, but if I run Kalonian Hydra I'd better have a really compelling argument that it wins a matchup by itself.
I don't think that main decking different colored permanents or double colored spells is where you usually want to go with a black devotion deck, but utility spells that shore up weaknesses? That's very attractive.
I am curious what weaknesses you are even talking about. This deck is probably the most universally stable deck in the format. I fail to see how splashing for other colors is really going to shore anything up that needs to be shored up.
Fade to Antiquity may be the only valid splash I can think of and that is for Thassa, in a match that is really not a match that is generally difficult to close out. The only issue I see with this match is Thassa when they start bouncing everything you do and beating in, which most Mono Blue decks are not really doing.
The fact that it competes with Desecration Demon and basically Underworld Connections in the curve means it has to measure up to those cards and it simply does not.
Desecration demon is only good against decks with few creatures and gets tapped down/ removed more often then not. Underworld connections is too expensive for what it does and i find myself not wanting to cast it til turn 6-10 when the game should already be almost over. Saying either of those cards is better than a creature with guaranteed card removal is crazy. Its not better than either card but it has uses neither the demon or connections can help with.
My deck is more about controlling the opponent than being aggro. It really depends on the match up. I have never had good results with demon and underworld has killed me more than a few times. Fodder for pack rat is sometimes nice to have.
Oh and the fact you can toss anything allows you to get rid of problem cards early game like blood baron until they get 5 mana up. Ive even used it on the draw turn four to peel a BBoV they drew last turn out of the hand which won me the game. Didnt have lifebane or thoughtseize in hand at the time.
Doom Blade
Lifebane Zombie
Erebos, God of the Dead: This hoses our lifegain, but other than that it's manageable as long as we weren't behind when it hit. I can't see it being used unless it's a mirror match.
Slaughter Games: Naming Gary will hurt pretty hard. It's not going to be seen at all, but it's potentially the biggest threat.
Planar Cleansing: It might actually start seeing some play.
There's also a lot of removals against Whip, but the deck is still manageable without it.
Anything else I'm missing? The deck is so well rounded that there's nothing much that can hurt but it's worth looking into what people will try using.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I did see Slaughter Games during game day and expect to see it more because at least in my experience we offer WBR a really hard match.
As for another anecdotical happenstance, what do you think of Liliana of the Dark Realms? I ran 2 during game day and she saved me from Thassa twice. The other gods I don't really care about as long as I can control their board, but being able to kill Thassa's card advantage helped me a lot against MUD and so I value Liliana highly.
Also, what do you think of sideboarding Blood Baron of Vizkopa, it made the match unwinnable to Esper and WBR during that day and I expect to see a lot of Espers in my LGS.
Round 1 was against Mono U Devotion
Game 1 he just came out of the gates and I stumbled on lands and made the mistake of not keeping removal open for MoWs.
Game 2 was really close he got me to 2 life. But an active Specter on my side let me hit like 5 spells from the top of his library and he kept seeing mana pockets underneath. I eventually got an Island to start casting his stuff but all I needed was the rapid hybridization against the specter he played his previous turn to keep Thassa off.
Game 3 I saw like 10 removal spells and kept him off his game plan all day while I slowly built up towards dropping double demon and a merchant to finish him off.
Match 2 was against UG midrange/ramp
Game 1 was really awkward when I thoughtseized his hand seeing temple of mystery, a couple of lands a couple of mana dorks and a polukranos. So I took the polukranos and then started killing his dorks to keep him off big mana. Eventually he dropped a Seedborne Teferi and started to take the game away as I ran low on removal and he started dropping Arbor Colossus and Kalonian Hydras, and Primespeakers.
Game 2 I just boarded all my removal in as well as lifebane zombie, while taking out pack rat (which was a huge mistake) and a couple of specters and thoughtseizes. Game two I fortunately was able to just 1 for 1 him on removal, kill his prophet at instant speed the turn it came out, drop a connections, and just slowly grind out the game with card advantage until I could just take him out with a Demon.
Game 3 was when I realized pack rat would have been amazing against his deck because it's very slow and clunky out of the gates and his deck had 0 outs to a turn 2 pack rat, especially with just a little bit of removal back up for Polukranos. Unfortunately him being on the play again and me being bad and tapping out for Underworld Connections on turn 3 just to see him play Prophet led to getting overwhelmed by big monsters.
Round 3 was against Mono Green devotion.
After my experiences with the UG ramp deck I ended up taking this match pretty easily. He also kept awkward hands game 1 and 3 that let me punish him hard for stumbling on his early land drops while relying on mana dorks. Game 2 he just came out of the gates fast and was able to Arbor Colossus my Desecration demon away and then sack dorks to it if I whipped it back. No Gary's that game hurt as well.
Round 4 Was against Rakdos Aggro.
Game 1 was horrifying when he went turn 1 Cackler. Turn 2 Ash Zealot, Turn 3 Ash Zealot Cackler. My only out to not dying was to turn 2 pack rat turn 3 discard to make a pack rat and trade with the 2 cacklers but he had the lightning strike to prevent that play.
Game 2 I sided in every single removal spell including the dark betrayal and it definitely got there as I was able to kill every threat, land a connections, CA him out into dropping Demons, Whips and Gary's.
Game 3 was like Game 2, except a turn 4 demon into turn 5 whip while I killed off his first 2 creatures on turn 3/4 left him with a pitiful board that was soon wiped out by a couple of timely top decked removal spells and Demon just took me so far ahead in life he couldn't come back.
Overall I'm liking the matchup against aggro. I really am wanting to cut that 4th packrat in the board for another Lifebane Zombie still, I also really am trying to learn when the best time to go all in on the pack rat plan is because it's a very delicate play that can either win you the game outright or cause a blow out and make you lose an otherwise winnable game.
To rehash my original post in this topic, since it seems literally nobody actually read it anyway when I didn't even have one person want to discuss the direction I took with the idea of "black devotion," this is my decklist:
4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Dark Prophecy
3 Underworld Connections
3 Whip of Erebos
Instants
3 Hero's Downfall
Land
20 Swamp
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Pithing Needle
3 Liliana of the Dark Realms
2 Dark Betrayal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lifebane Zombie
Thing is, it's not a mediocre aggro deck. It's marginally worse than Mono-Red aggro in pure speed, which runs a very similar but maybe slightly better aggro package (Cackler = Cackler, Hero ? Satyr, Zealot > Shred-Freak) and a cheaper devotion-based Fireball (Fanatic of Mogis vs Merchant). The trade-off is worthwhile, though, two huge card advantage engines and much better game against other aggro decks: my one-drop doesn't gnaw at my life total and a drain swings twice the total life as a burn spell. And I still outspeed everything else!
Also, as per Psiven...
I feel like removal is pretty bad right now, which is a major reason I went the aggro route with black devotion. Wring Flesh is pretty bad as the only real 1cc removal spell at our disposal. At :2mana:, Devour Flesh doesn't target (good against control's singular threats, not so good against Polukranos with a mana dork on board), Doom Blade and Ultimate Price both have self-evident weaknesses. Everything else requires a splash (and even Dreadbore, which is otherwise the one universal < 3cc, is Sorcery speed :P) and/or is too expensive (3+) to rely on against aggro.
So how else can aggro be handled? If removal is bad, I'll just play dudes myself. Not much difference between plopping a TKA down to block something than it is Doom Blading it, after all. Card advantage engines and Gray Merchant keeping life up will ensure the victory in due time. And instead of a ton of dead cards that don't contribute to devotion against control, you can just spew weenies downs and smash them in the face. Who cares if they eat removal? Doom Blade isn't helping you any more than "removed creature." At least the creature does something if it isn't removed and when they do, that's one less card in hand they can bluff being a counterspell or whatever. Then you out-CA them anyway with your enchants and Fireball them for 10 in the face with Gray Merchant for the win.
Judging from the decklist it'd have an okay game against traditional Mono B game 1, but falter in games 2 and 3.
Just an opinion, but I would run Mogis's Marauder over Dark Prophecy. I essentially can drop it turn three or four and get by any blockers for a big chunk of damage and let Gary take care of the rest the next turn. Sacrificing two devotion is worth the possible 3-5+ damage early on.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Well, I don't really agree that removal is bad, but I suppose we don't have Tragic Slip around anymore. With a BR or BG splash you have particularly excellent removal.
I was addressing the idea of jamming in more creatures to combat aggro from a sideboarding perspective of midrange devotion; if you already have an aggressive creature-based deck it will be a very different perspective to begin with. That creature base is great for clogging up the board against aggro; many of the creatures midrange devotion lists are running are not very good at that.
This deck looks fine, but honestly I don't see the use of having 4 Dark Prophecy in this list. Maybe 2, but I would honestly run zero and play Lifebane Zombies instead. Lifebane will destroy GW and GR decks, and against every other deck, he does insane damage. He should be in the mainboard, and move Dark Prophecy to the side for control matchups. Even Mogis Marauder would be better I think, like TBuzzsaw said.
I'd try out Marauder if I was playing more Magic lately, probably not over Prophecy though. Maybe I'm latching too hard onto it since that's pretty much the other big reason I have the cheap aggro package (enabling Prophecy, which itself is the deck's best devotion enabler) but maybe take out a Whip, drop a Shred-Freak or two to make room for them. Prophecy is good against both aggro and control, the former for favorable combat and the latter for removal protection. At the very least I want more than four total Prophecy + Connections to ensure reliable sources of card advantage. I think Prophecy is better because it can start working immediately if you curve into it and it's +1 devotion, though I understand if others like Connections more (can stop using it if your life total is in danger, early Nykthos can pay for the colorless).
Also, the sideboard could use some work but I never really concerned myself too much with really trying to fix it. Liliana is really my big question there, though Thoughtseize I'm surprisingly meh about. Dark Betrayal is actually quite good, I'd add a third if I was less lazy about it.
Matchup-wise as requested:
If you were going to use the card, I would try pairing it up with Xathrid Necromancer so there's at least some value of getting more cards when most of your creatures are humans.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I really dig the list so far. I is pretty robust against your typical Mono Black as well because it can just completely explode and then dump out dudes to stop Demons from blocking or swinging and you can generally build up a faster Devotion for a merchant than your opponent and it is more devastating as they already took damage from it as well. The deck also plays really well off their own Thoughtseizes.
Saying a creature with an ETB ability is narrow is just horrible. Its like your trying to compare it to a vanilla creature. Against decks that just go bigger the 1/3 body stalls and it peels a card you dont want to see from the hand to boot. Id rather have that and peel a boon sayter out of an opponents hand then duress for nothing now holding a doom blade for BS (lol). Against an opponent top decking anything that forces a discard becomes a dead card but with this deck you should be winning if thats happening and playing disciple becomes less relevant and you can use it for pack rats to power out the win. Understanding what cards are important and for how long is key. I play a set of rats and when my opponent starts top decking or i have a chance to do some damage ill chuck it instead and whip it back later if needed.
Discard devotion is pretty much what i run. If liliana's Caress were legal id play that some where in my 75 causeof the amount of discard in the deck
Isn’t Rakdos Minotaurs supposed to be a thing? Slaughter Games would fit right into the sideboard in a BR deck.
Do you guys think this is viable and if it does, what color would you splash for ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I played a red splash variant on MTGO last night with Mono Blue and wrecked it. I think Mono Black is probably where you want to be, the splashes take away from what makes the deck function so well. I beat the splash variants almost every time, where I lose to the straight black variants a little more often.
I also feel like the Mono Black Aggro variant is where you probably want to be at this juncture, just because it offers the same game premise with a faster clock, which means your matches against Mono Black are a lot easier and it is not a complete grind or session of trading hay-makers back and forth.
You mean the one running humans and Xathrid Necromancer ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
No, like Mr. E's list.
I recall also seeing coverage of a deck like it last weekend which had Desecration Demon in it, which was a lot slower and it lost to Bw Devotion if I recall.
Illness in the Ranks: Useful against Wave tokens, and adds a bit to devotion which is always good in this deck. Hurts our own Pack Rats though, so I'm wary of including this
Ogre Slumlord: Shares CMC with Gray Merchant of Asphodel, however it synergizes well with Pack Rat as well as the myriad creature removal that runs rampant in this deck. Slumlord might also be better to play before Gray Merchant given the extra 2 to Devotion.
Shrivel: Maybe I'm overly worried about Blue devotion, but this can be another answer to a player who gets out a boatload of Wave tokens
I don't think that main decking different colored permanents or double colored spells is where you usually want to go with a black devotion deck, but utility spells that shore up weaknesses? That's very attractive.
The only tokens that matter can be taken care of by using Doom Blade on Master.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I am curious what weaknesses you are even talking about. This deck is probably the most universally stable deck in the format. I fail to see how splashing for other colors is really going to shore anything up that needs to be shored up.
Fade to Antiquity may be the only valid splash I can think of and that is for Thassa, in a match that is really not a match that is generally difficult to close out. The only issue I see with this match is Thassa when they start bouncing everything you do and beating in, which most Mono Blue decks are not really doing.
Desecration demon is only good against decks with few creatures and gets tapped down/ removed more often then not. Underworld connections is too expensive for what it does and i find myself not wanting to cast it til turn 6-10 when the game should already be almost over. Saying either of those cards is better than a creature with guaranteed card removal is crazy. Its not better than either card but it has uses neither the demon or connections can help with.
My deck is more about controlling the opponent than being aggro. It really depends on the match up. I have never had good results with demon and underworld has killed me more than a few times. Fodder for pack rat is sometimes nice to have.
Oh and the fact you can toss anything allows you to get rid of problem cards early game like blood baron until they get 5 mana up. Ive even used it on the draw turn four to peel a BBoV they drew last turn out of the hand which won me the game. Didnt have lifebane or thoughtseize in hand at the time.