So with the banning of Cloudpost, Pauper loses its most explosive mana generator. I'm sure most of us expect the Tron lands to become the go-to cards for insane mana production as they already have in Modern. Indeed, R/G Tron, in Modern, is a Tier 1 deck with it's fair share of top finishes.
For this first post, I will focus on R/G Tron as it is the deck I know and understand the best. Although I admit, that isn't saying much
For those who are unfamiliar with R/G Tron, the deck focuses on assembling the Tron lands; Urza's Mine, Urza's Tower, and Urza's Power Plant. With their powers combined, the three individual lands produce a whopping seven colorless mana. The following decklist is a common variant of the R/G Tron deck
Utilizing the Urza lands, it's possible to drop a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine or Karn Liberated. Most decks are unable to effectively handle such a start as the Wurmcoil just begins bashing away and gaining you 6 life per attack and Karn exiles key pieces of your opponents hand or key permanents on the field. If Karn ultimates, the game restarts, with all exiled permanents returning to the battlefield under your control essentially ending the game. If the game goes long enough, you may even drop Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, MTG's version of His Noodly Goodness.
To cast colored spells, virtually all R/G Tron decks run 4 Grove of the Burnwillows. As strong as your creatures are, the 1 life your opponent gains is usually irrelevant. Rounding off the lands are typically some combination of Forests, Ghost Quarter, and Eye of Ugin
How does this translate to Pauper?
At this point, I'm sure it sounds like I'm writing a primer for R/G Tron in the wrong thread. Well I'm getting to it. I just like to be thorough you know? I used the Modern R/G list basically as a template instead of starting from scratch.
As Pauper can only be played with cards of the common rarity, important pieces of the R/G Tron deck must be replaced. That being said, important pieces are able to stay.
Land
So we'll start off with the most important part, the mana base. Obviously, we want the three Urza lands. It's kind of the whole reason for this deck. For colored mana purposes, Pauper offers us several different choices. As it is late and I am tired, I will list what I used in my testing from earlier today.
For the lands, Gruul Turf can be used as well. I personally didn't like it but that doesn't mean I'm right. In fact, I'm probably wrong as my girlfriend, my mom, my stepmom, my dad, three brothers and two sisters can all attest to. I just prefer the Guildgate.
The creatures in this deck are going to be a bit trickier. There are no colorless bombs like a Wurmcoil or Karn in Pauper. Ulamog's Crusher is the best we get. Dropping a Crusher on turn 4 is pretty much good game. Since we are running so many artifacts that must sacrificed for searching or mana purposes, it makes sense to run a number of Fangren Marauder. I ran four in my first iteration of the deck and they did not disappoint. The Marauder will keep you in the game if you play your cards right. In other words, don't be in a rush to crack your mana eggs if you don't have to. You never know when you might actually need that colored mana and if you have a Marauder in play, you're gaining 5 life. My overall knowledge of Pauper is limited so to round out my creatures, I actually played Maul Splicer. I don't know if he's any good really. But he fits the curve nicely and the Golem tokens can hold the line pretty well.
Pauper has one card that is superior to the Modern version of R/G Tron. And that is Crop Rotation. Instant speed and searches up ANY land and puts it ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Not in your hand but on the field, ready to be used. Yes, you have to sacrifice a land to play CR but you can use whatever the least important land you have is. A random Forest or extra Tron lands. Ancient Stirrings can be used to dig for any colorless card that we might need. Ideally, you're looking for your last Tron piece or the Crusher that isn't named Wesley. As in the Modern deck, Expedition Map, Chromatic Star, and Chromatic Sphere are there to find Tron lands, fix your mana, and draw you cards. As I said earlier, be smart about when you use them. Don't crack one just to draw a card unless you're way ahead or way desperate. Relic of Progenitus is a common that can be used in this deck, however, I'm not sure graveyard strategies are used enough to warrant its inclusion. But I could easily be mistaken. As this version of R/G Tron isn't going to be the hammer and anvil it's Modern cousin will be, there will be a lot of tinkering till it reaches a point that it can be considered competitive, if it ever does reach that point. Modern Tron has Pyroclasm at it's disposal. The lack of a cheap sweeper could ultimately be the reason R/G Pauper Tron never makes it to the top as it is vulnerable to fast aggro and can be disrupted by control. I used four Electrickery, 2 Rolling Thunder, and 1 Kaervek's Torch. The Electrickery can be an effective sweeper against aggro IF you get it early enough. Rolling Thunder worked well WHEN I had the RR to cast it. That's another reason to watch your mana eggs. The Kaervek's Torch was just tossed in there as a possible bullet in the brain pan squish to hopefully finish out a game.
I certainly would appreciate any constructive feedback on this deck. I love Tron but there are so many cards that can be used in Pauper, I'm sure I'm missing cards that can make this deck better.
I was messing around with a very similar list recently. I also found that Reap and Sow is not a half-bad option, albeit slower. The idea is that if you can get to 4 mana, you have a Crop Rotation that doesn't hurt your mana base. If you can get to 4GG, you can very easily start to use it to grab things like your 2nd-4th Towers, while also screwing over their mana base. Might be something to think about.
It basically involves perfect tron curve, with gruul signet turn 2 and having crusher to drop on t3. More likely is to use crop rotation, ancient stirrings and expedition map to dig for the pieces though and play it t4/5.
...
Also a nice mana bump trick if you need it is to tap your tron for {7}, then sac a piece using crop rotation for another of the same piece which comes into play untapped when you need to hit ulamog mana. So say you have:
1 Tower, 1 Plant, 1 Mine, prism in play and crop rotation in hand. Tap tron for {7}, use one mana to filter into green for crop rotation (down to {6}), sac say a mine to crop rotation, grab another mine to recomplete tron, tap for {2} (now {8} total) and play ulamog.
You seem to have the right basic idea. The usual :symg:Post finisher is Aurochs Herd, chosen because it's a beefy trampler that replaces itself with a card at least as good! You'd need to be running the playset, though, to keep 'em coming - maybe cut 1 Ulamog's Crusher and 3 Maul Splicer?
My attempts at :symrg:Post always wound up tilted heavily to the side - I want Lightning Bolt and Flame Slash up ASAP. I'm not sure that's better, though.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Yea R/G Tron plays Red strictly for Pyroclasm. I played a few more games last night after my initial post. I cut 2 Forest(I kept getting flooded hard core), 1 Splicer, and the single Kaerveks Torch for the 4 Aurochs Herd. I definitely think its better that way. I will also likely look into upping the number of Rolling Thunder. Any kind of sweeper is necessary to keeping us alive. Serrated Arrows could certainly work in this capacity.
I haven't even begun working on SB. Are there any thoughts there?
RG Tron is not a new concept. The deck has actually shown up in Daily Events although it was very fringe. As has been said the red was a very small splash in the main deck and any Tron based deck is going to need Prophetic Prism or similar to change color. 8-post decks required the Prophetic Prisms in order to meet the need for colored mana and the Tron mana base brings in even MORE colorless so it becomes that much more important. The RG Tron did use Chromatic Star and Chromatic Sphere to create this along with Gruul Signet, but was still almost unnecessary because of the fact the deck was 98% green and was entirely for the combo with Fangren Marauder. Here's what it looked like:
Cantrip.
Lets you draw into your urza pieces earlier.
Can just be cycled.
Already in the color you are playing.
Lets you hit 8 mana on turn 3 if you play it turn 2 and put tron into place.
Lets you hit 11 mana on turn 3 if you play turn 2 explore on it and then turn 3 crop rotation on your forest into a tower.
If you can fill your yard up quickly enough to use it, Swirling Sandstorm is a very good sweeper that conveniently costs mostly colorless mana to cast.
The main thing here is that Pauper Tron cannot win the short game. There is just no way to play it as a "fast ramp" deck.
You have to play slow, and playing slow means card advantage. Cantripping mana-filters are a good start. can provide card advantage with damage sweepers, i.e. Rolling Thunder and (maybe) Swirling Sandstorm. can contribute a little bit of card advantage with Aurochs Herd, but that's about it.
So that's why I keep winding up tipped so far toward - all your good early action is :symr:, and your best card advantage/finishers are :symr::symr:. Also, you will probably want to board in Pyroblast to help you stick your expensive stuff.
Ancient Stirrings is crappy when it can't dig for a Mythic mana sink. It's probably fine as a 3-of, maybe with an extra in the board against slower decks, but it's just not a high-priority early play.
Explore is hard to buy into, given that you need to have a viable source AND an extra land to play.
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I certainly would appreciate any constructive feedback on this deck. I love Tron but there are so many cards that can be used in Pauper, I'm sure I'm missing cards that can make this deck better.
-1 Crusher
-2 Maul Splicer
+3 Fierce Empath
Gives you more flexibility to find the exact fatty you are looking for and blocks very well.
Firebolt has been a card considered too slow in the past but would be great in this deck. I might try to find room for 3 or 4 if I could.
I posted the original list because Modern R/G Tron is my favorite Modern deck. I cannot, however, afford to build the deck on MTGO or paper. I borrow from a friend on the rare occasion I'm able to get out to my LGS. Building it cheaply for Pauper seemed like the next best thing. As I said in my initial post, I have limited knowledge of Pauper and most of my Pauper experience comes from playing Mono G Stompy almost purely in JFF.
I appreciate the insights and evaluations into my original list and R/G Pauper Tron in general. That does not, however, discourage me. I've always been the stubborn type and, for the time being, I'll keep trying. I'm a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong though so if and when that times comes, you can do a happy dance.
Any insights into how I can make this deck work, instead of every reason it can't, though those are valuable in their own way, would still be appreciated
I posted the original list because Modern R/G Tron is my favorite Modern deck. I cannot, however, afford to build the deck on MTGO or paper. I borrow from a friend on the rare occasion I'm able to get out to my LGS. Building it cheaply for Pauper seemed like the next best thing. As I said in my initial post, I have limited knowledge of Pauper and most of my Pauper experience comes from playing Mono G Stompy almost purely in JFF.
I appreciate the insights and evaluations into my original list and R/G Pauper Tron in general. That does not, however, discourage me. I've always been the stubborn type and, for the time being, I'll keep trying. I'm a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong though so if and when that times comes, you can do a happy dance.
Any insights into how I can make this deck work, instead of every reason it can't, though those are valuable in their own way, would still be appreciated
the deck likely costs less than $40 to build either on paper or on MTGO. I'm sure you will get the cards you need eventually. GL!
Haha, eventually yes, I will. But Karn Liberated is 40 a piece last I looked. Wurmcoils, Grove of the Burnwillows are 15-25 piece themselves. A stock Modern list would cost in the neighborhood of 400 plus dollars. Somewhat inexpensive by Modern standards but still more than I can afford right now
So with both its best mu's banned why re build this?
Because it's not there. Why brew any ridiculous thing? To see if it'll work.
Also, you're thinking of the LD-intensive builds that crop up whenever there's a land problem; LDTron dates back to the era of Frantic Search Storm. This, meanwhile, is less about LD and more about playing with a big busted mana engine.
Any insights into how I can make this deck work, instead of every reason it can't, though those are valuable in their own way, would still be appreciated
You badly need to carry your early game; and once you've stabilized, you'd really like to refill your hand and dig for a finisher, which is something is very good at, and less so. Sadly, I'm not sure there are any really good ways to stay in :symg:, despite the benefit of Fangren Marauder + eggs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Haha, eventually yes, I will. But Karn Liberated is 40 a piece last I looked. Wurmcoils, Grove of the Burnwillows are 15-25 piece themselves. A stock Modern list would cost in the neighborhood of 400 plus dollars. Somewhat inexpensive by Modern standards but still more than I can afford right now
You badly need to carry your early game; and once you've stabilized, you'd really like to refill your hand and dig for a finisher, which is something is very good at, and less so. Sadly, I'm not sure there are any really good ways to stay in :symg:, despite the benefit of Fangren Marauder + eggs.
Green still has options for digging, fierce empath can tutor threats and gift of the gargantuane and a less consistant but faster option in ancient stirrings can dig for threats and tron pieces, whether or not that's enough I'm not sure.
What about Wall of Tanglecord? Can be found with Ancient Stirrings, blocks forever and can even stop a flipped Delver if you have the G. If this deck is slow, the wall can buy some time...
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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For this first post, I will focus on R/G Tron as it is the deck I know and understand the best. Although I admit, that isn't saying much
For those who are unfamiliar with R/G Tron, the deck focuses on assembling the Tron lands; Urza's Mine, Urza's Tower, and Urza's Power Plant. With their powers combined, the three individual lands produce a whopping seven colorless mana. The following decklist is a common variant of the R/G Tron deck
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (36)
4 Karn Liberated
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pyroclasm
4 Oblivion Stone
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Relic of Progenitus
Utilizing the Urza lands, it's possible to drop a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine or Karn Liberated. Most decks are unable to effectively handle such a start as the Wurmcoil just begins bashing away and gaining you 6 life per attack and Karn exiles key pieces of your opponents hand or key permanents on the field. If Karn ultimates, the game restarts, with all exiled permanents returning to the battlefield under your control essentially ending the game. If the game goes long enough, you may even drop Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, MTG's version of His Noodly Goodness.
Almost every piece of the Tron deck is devoted to finding Urza lands. Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, and Ancient Stirrings can be used to find the lands. Your mana eggs, Chromatic Star and Chromatic Sphere, help to fix your mana and draw you cards.
To cast colored spells, virtually all R/G Tron decks run 4 Grove of the Burnwillows. As strong as your creatures are, the 1 life your opponent gains is usually irrelevant. Rounding off the lands are typically some combination of Forests, Ghost Quarter, and Eye of Ugin
How does this translate to Pauper?
At this point, I'm sure it sounds like I'm writing a primer for R/G Tron in the wrong thread. Well I'm getting to it. I just like to be thorough you know? I used the Modern R/G list basically as a template instead of starting from scratch.
As Pauper can only be played with cards of the common rarity, important pieces of the R/G Tron deck must be replaced. That being said, important pieces are able to stay.
Land
So we'll start off with the most important part, the mana base. Obviously, we want the three Urza lands. It's kind of the whole reason for this deck. For colored mana purposes, Pauper offers us several different choices. As it is late and I am tired, I will list what I used in my testing from earlier today.
For the lands, Gruul Turf can be used as well. I personally didn't like it but that doesn't mean I'm right. In fact, I'm probably wrong as my girlfriend, my mom, my stepmom, my dad, three brothers and two sisters can all attest to. I just prefer the Guildgate.
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Gruul Guildgate
6 Forest
Creatures
The creatures in this deck are going to be a bit trickier. There are no colorless bombs like a Wurmcoil or Karn in Pauper. Ulamog's Crusher is the best we get. Dropping a Crusher on turn 4 is pretty much good game. Since we are running so many artifacts that must sacrificed for searching or mana purposes, it makes sense to run a number of Fangren Marauder. I ran four in my first iteration of the deck and they did not disappoint. The Marauder will keep you in the game if you play your cards right. In other words, don't be in a rush to crack your mana eggs if you don't have to. You never know when you might actually need that colored mana and if you have a Marauder in play, you're gaining 5 life. My overall knowledge of Pauper is limited so to round out my creatures, I actually played Maul Splicer. I don't know if he's any good really. But he fits the curve nicely and the Golem tokens can hold the line pretty well.
4 Ulamog's Crusher
4 Fangren Marauder
3 Maul Splicer
Spells and Artifacts
Pauper has one card that is superior to the Modern version of R/G Tron. And that is Crop Rotation. Instant speed and searches up ANY land and puts it ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Not in your hand but on the field, ready to be used. Yes, you have to sacrifice a land to play CR but you can use whatever the least important land you have is. A random Forest or extra Tron lands. Ancient Stirrings can be used to dig for any colorless card that we might need. Ideally, you're looking for your last Tron piece or the Crusher that isn't named Wesley. As in the Modern deck, Expedition Map, Chromatic Star, and Chromatic Sphere are there to find Tron lands, fix your mana, and draw you cards. As I said earlier, be smart about when you use them. Don't crack one just to draw a card unless you're way ahead or way desperate. Relic of Progenitus is a common that can be used in this deck, however, I'm not sure graveyard strategies are used enough to warrant its inclusion. But I could easily be mistaken. As this version of R/G Tron isn't going to be the hammer and anvil it's Modern cousin will be, there will be a lot of tinkering till it reaches a point that it can be considered competitive, if it ever does reach that point. Modern Tron has Pyroclasm at it's disposal. The lack of a cheap sweeper could ultimately be the reason R/G Pauper Tron never makes it to the top as it is vulnerable to fast aggro and can be disrupted by control. I used four Electrickery, 2 Rolling Thunder, and 1 Kaervek's Torch. The Electrickery can be an effective sweeper against aggro IF you get it early enough. Rolling Thunder worked well WHEN I had the RR to cast it. That's another reason to watch your mana eggs. The Kaervek's Torch was just tossed in there as a possible bullet in the brain pan squish to hopefully finish out a game.
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Expedition Map
4 Electrickery
2 Rolling Thunder
1 Kaervek's Torch
So all together, this is what I was playing with
Lands (22)
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Gruul Guildgate
6 Forest
4 Fangren Marauder
3 Maul Splicer
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Expedition Map
4 Electrickery
2 Rolling Thunder
1 Kaervek's Torch
I certainly would appreciate any constructive feedback on this deck. I love Tron but there are so many cards that can be used in Pauper, I'm sure I'm missing cards that can make this deck better.
star and sphere imho are what is needed.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
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now I have to find that videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nS9V1t0vg#t=6m05sIt basically involves perfect tron curve, with gruul signet turn 2 and having crusher to drop on t3. More likely is to use crop rotation, ancient stirrings and expedition map to dig for the pieces though and play it t4/5.
...
Also a nice mana bump trick if you need it is to tap your tron for {7}, then sac a piece using crop rotation for another of the same piece which comes into play untapped when you need to hit ulamog mana. So say you have:
1 Tower, 1 Plant, 1 Mine, prism in play and crop rotation in hand. Tap tron for {7}, use one mana to filter into green for crop rotation (down to {6}), sac say a mine to crop rotation, grab another mine to recomplete tron, tap for {2} (now {8} total) and play ulamog.
My attempts at :symrg:Post always wound up tilted heavily to the side - I want Lightning Bolt and Flame Slash up ASAP. I'm not sure that's better, though.
Ancient Stirrings is really good when it can get lands as well as finishers and utility. Maybe Serrated Arrows would be good in this deck?
I haven't even begun working on SB. Are there any thoughts there?
4 Fangren Marauder
4 Ulamog's Crusher
Non-Creature:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chormatic Star
4 Explore
2 Gruul Signet
1 Kaervek's Torch
2 Pristine Talisman
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Reap and Sow
2 Forest
4 Haunted Fengraf
1 Quicksand
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Electricery
1 Firebolt
4 Moment's Peace
3 Pyroblast
1 Swirling Sandstorm
2 Tumble Magnet
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
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That being said, I appreciate the feedback on the older list.
Cantrip.
Lets you draw into your urza pieces earlier.
Can just be cycled.
Already in the color you are playing.
Lets you hit 8 mana on turn 3 if you play it turn 2 and put tron into place.
Lets you hit 11 mana on turn 3 if you play turn 2 explore on it and then turn 3 crop rotation on your forest into a tower.
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You have to play slow, and playing slow means card advantage. Cantripping mana-filters are a good start. can provide card advantage with damage sweepers, i.e. Rolling Thunder and (maybe) Swirling Sandstorm. can contribute a little bit of card advantage with Aurochs Herd, but that's about it.
Playing slow also means stalling the early game. Your side comes in strongly here with Flame Slash and Lightning Bolt (and Electrostatic Bolt and Magma Spray and Firebolt); can contribute with Moment's Peace and Fangren Marauder.
So that's why I keep winding up tipped so far toward - all your good early action is :symr:, and your best card advantage/finishers are :symr::symr:. Also, you will probably want to board in Pyroblast to help you stick your expensive stuff.
Ancient Stirrings is crappy when it can't dig for a Mythic mana sink. It's probably fine as a 3-of, maybe with an extra in the board against slower decks, but it's just not a high-priority early play.
Explore is hard to buy into, given that you need to have a viable source AND an extra land to play.
Haunted Fengraf might be okay if you're skipping the Aurochs Herd, but 4-of seems in excess of reality.
It would be cool to have some kind of ultra-long-term inevitability plan, like Grim Harvest. Disturbed Burial might be color-light enough to do it.
-1 Crusher
-2 Maul Splicer
+3 Fierce Empath
Gives you more flexibility to find the exact fatty you are looking for and blocks very well.
Firebolt has been a card considered too slow in the past but would be great in this deck. I might try to find room for 3 or 4 if I could.
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I appreciate the insights and evaluations into my original list and R/G Pauper Tron in general. That does not, however, discourage me. I've always been the stubborn type and, for the time being, I'll keep trying. I'm a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong though so if and when that times comes, you can do a happy dance.
Any insights into how I can make this deck work, instead of every reason it can't, though those are valuable in their own way, would still be appreciated
the deck likely costs less than $40 to build either on paper or on MTGO. I'm sure you will get the cards you need eventually. GL!
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Because it's not there. Why brew any ridiculous thing? To see if it'll work.
Also, you're thinking of the LD-intensive builds that crop up whenever there's a land problem; LDTron dates back to the era of Frantic Search Storm. This, meanwhile, is less about LD and more about playing with a big busted mana engine.
You badly need to carry your early game; and once you've stabilized, you'd really like to refill your hand and dig for a finisher, which is something is very good at, and less so. Sadly, I'm not sure there are any really good ways to stay in :symg:, despite the benefit of Fangren Marauder + eggs.
Oh, I thought you meant the pauper version lol.
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Green still has options for digging, fierce empath can tutor threats and gift of the gargantuane and a less consistant but faster option in ancient stirrings can dig for threats and tron pieces, whether or not that's enough I'm not sure.