Modern: Combo need not apply. Is that what Modern is for? Because I don't buy it. People keep saying what Modern is, and who it's for but it keeps ignoring how this is a game and you don't get to have a bouncer at the door saying how you don't like my shoes. Modern isn't "your" format. It's our, the player's format. Some of us players like healthy metas, but they need to get the boot because you're scared of some combo deck maybe winning? A deck like storm? The players who aren't even winning get the boot? Really?
Combo is my favorite archetype. But it is doing fine in Modern. Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Amulet of Vigor, Splinter Twin, Griselbrand Reanimator, Living End, and Restore Balance are all viable, and that is not even counting decks that only some people classify as combo (RG Tron). But turn 3 combo wins are not needed. As a combo player, I actually like the turn 4 rule. It is fun thing to try to break.
Horse-poopy.
Remember the combo that started this whole thing? Infect-shoal. Infect-shoal looses to not one but TWO zero-cost answers. And now with BOTH ponder and preordain banned you're really going to tell me that infect-shoal is going to be any worse than the current Infect stompy? Infect shoal is the perfect example of a combo deck that can't beat a control deck. Counter their spell? They lose the game. Kill their guy? They lose the game. Ban their cantrips? How are they even still in this game?
You are right, but I'd prefer getting Preordain and Ponder back over getting Infect Shoal back and I don't think that it would be fair with both cantrips back.
This mentality has confused me from the start. Why do people want a redo of something that can already be played? People are asking for cards to play Legacy in Modern. They are wanting the format to function like Legacy. Legacy has been done, i dont see why we have to redo it again. Modern should be its own thing and handled as such.
There are not the policing cards in the Modern card pool to let fast combo loose on it. So the answe to some is bring some policing cards from Legacy, now we are not talking about Modern anymore, but a hybred format thats a little of this, a little of that.
A metagame that can keep itself in check without bans should be the ideal for every format. Just because Legacy has it does not mean that it would make Modern another Legacy. I agree about fast combo, but I can see the other side's point of view.
I think this is the major difference between Modern and Legacy: WotC actively polices Modern instead of leaving it to the meta-game. I can see the logic in this: it makes Modern friendly to newer players and casual players who aren't up to date on the meta. For a player like me who isn't interested in buying many decks, I find the idea that sometimes my decks will be crushed because of 'the meta' to be revolting. I want to be able to play the game without having to know what's currently popular and still have some chance of winning. Of course, people who know the meta will do better, but it's not a requirement.
Oh the horror! People have to spend 2 minutes of their lives looking up the meta on the internet to succeed in Modern. This spells doom for the format! Newer players shouldn't have to waste a few minutes of their lives to do well in the format! Ban the better decks!
This is the point I'm trying to make: IMO, Modern is for people who are not serious tournament players. People who only have a deck or 2 and want to reuse it. People who don't want to deal with Meta issues, but just have fun playing what ever deck they want to play and having a decent chance of winning. People who actually have other hobbies than Magic. And if they could make the modern meta more diverse, than they might pull it off. Legacy, I'm told, revolves around it's police cards; that's something I don't want to deal with.
All of this is just my opinion, of course. I'm certain a Legacy player will be along any moment to tell me to stop whining and go play Yugioh instead, because all Magic should be just like Legacy.
(BTW, I'm stealing your Sigarda EDH deck)
This is the stupidest idea that I have ever heard in this thread, and that includes unbanning everything, banning Archive Trap for allowing turn 1 wins, banning Verdant Catacombs, and Stoneforge Mystic being better than Tinker. Modern was first announced as a format to be played in a tournament. Its first competitive event was a Pro Tour. Modern has never been a casual format. If you want to play casual magic, play Casual. Modern is for people who don't want the power level of Legacy but that want a non-rotating format. It is not for people who are too lazy to adjust their deck to the meta.
No, I was playing different decks that used banned cards. Storm wasn't the only one playing with seething song.
I wasn't playing Modern back then, but I know how you feel. I keep trying to make decks that aren't as good without Seething Song. Of course, most of those break the turn 4 rule, so it is probably a good thing that I don't have access to it. Still, I can imagine a Seething Song unban happening and I wuld support it.
I also had quite a few decks banned out from under me. Seething Song took away Storm, Hive Mind, All In Red, Breach Hulk, and Dragonstorm, all of which I had been playing up until that ban. Storm at least came back but, sadly, the BGx hegemony has made that deck totally unusable. Breach Hulk was dead in the water the moment DRS came into the format (let alone Scooze a year later), and had already been hurt when GSZ took a ban in 2011. But AIR, Hive Mind, and Dragonstorm are all decks that I miss today.
If you miss Hive Mind, have you tried out Amulet of Vigor?
Looked at the banned list for this format yesterday and man is it ever stupid. I mean, how can they ban Bitterblossom, but let Splinter Twin be a deck... ugh. I love the format but they should let a lot of cards go. Same with Golgari Grave Troll and a few others. Wizards just went crazy with the ban hammer on this one.
A metagame that can keep itself in check without bans should be the ideal for every format. Just because Legacy has it does not mean that it would make Modern another Legacy. I agree about fast combo, but I can see the other side's point of view.
Two years. Is that enough time to understand the format doesnt have the tools to police itself?
This mentality has confused me from the start. Why do people want a redo of something that can already be played?
Because Legacy is extremely expensive as of the past few years, and the only reason Modern exists is because WoTC was afraid to reprint all the cards needed to make Legacy a PTQ format, so they created modern.
Two years. Is that enough time to understand the format doesnt have the tools to police itself?
It seemed to be doing fine when I first got here in May. Yes, Melira Pod was winning many Grand Prixs, but other than that, it wasn't dominant. It seems like the format was fine between the BBE and SS bans and the reprinting of Scavenging Ooze. It was also fine between the Zoo bans and Return to Ravnica. Modern could regulate itself if Wizards stopped pushing the BG shell so much.
It seemed to be doing fine when I first got here in May. Yes, Melira Pod was winning many Grand Prixs, but other than that, it wasn't dominant. It seems like the format was fine between the BBE and SS bans and the reprinting of Scavenging Ooze. It was also fine between the Zoo bans and Return to Ravnica. Modern could regulate itself if Wizards stopped pushing the BG shell so much.
Except the format has never been able to self regulate. A deck just gets more and more powerful until Wotc has to do something about it. Its the reason we have had the bans we have had.
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Because Legacy is extremely expensive as of the past few years, and the only reason Modern exists is because WoTC was afraid to reprint all the cards needed to make Legacy a PTQ format, so they created modern.
Afraid or cant?
Until Legacy is a dead format, this argument is a moot point. Modern should be its own thing until if/when Legacy goes away for good.
Except the format has never been able to self regulate. A deck just gets more and more powerful until Wotc has to do something about it. Its the reason we have had the bans we have had.
We didn't have a single ban for all of 2012. What is even better is that we had balanced archetypes, with decks like WB Tokens and Assault Loam winning Grand Prix and decks like Mono-U Fae, Soul Sisters, Ritual Gifts, Grixis Twin, RUG Delver, UW Tron, and WUR Delver making Top 8. You don't see that kind of diversity anymore. The format was regulating itself just fine until DRS and Decay were printed. And I still hope that the format can correct itself before a ban is needed. (Though I wouldn't mind a ban, it would make most of the decks that I want to play more powerful.)
Combo is my favorite archetype. But it is doing fine in Modern. Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Amulet of Vigor, Splinter Twin, Griselbrand Reanimator, Living End, and Restore Balance are all viable, and that is not even counting decks that only some people classify as combo (RG Tron). But turn 3 combo wins are not needed. As a combo player, I actually like the turn 4 rule. It is fun thing to try to break.
You have a very loose definition of "viable" in that I think it can also be extended to some decks that simply "exist." To me viable means it has to have a chance of winning. I've bolded the only real ones that fit that.
Of those, the pod's classification of combo is in debate. (This forum can be weird, some description of a drink label "toolbox aroma with a strong combo finish and notes of aggro" is what's used.) Twin I'll grant you, not that I think it's putting up any results, and Griselbrand I'll hold up as a prime example of what I'm talking about for self police. If you do not prepare for it, it can beat you. If you do, it simply cannot.
Except the format has never been able to self regulate. A deck just gets more and more powerful until Wotc has to do something about it. Its the reason we have had the bans we have had.
This should be a huge indicator of systemic problems in the format.
Afraid or cant?
Afraid.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
We didn't have a single ban for all of 2012. What is even better is that we had balanced archetypes, with decks like WB Tokens and Assault Loam winning Grand Prix and decks like Mono-U Fae, Soul Sisters, Ritual Gifts, Grixis Twin, RUG Delver, UW Tron, and WUR Delver making Top 8. You don't see that kind of diversity anymore. The format was regulating itself just fine until DRS and Decay were printed. And I still hope that the format can correct itself before a ban is needed. (Though I wouldn't mind a ban, it would make most of the decks that I want to play more powerful.)
that was a sweet time to play. then rtr came and ruined it.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Combo is my favorite archetype. But it is doing fine in Modern. Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Amulet of Vigor, Splinter Twin, Griselbrand Reanimator, Living End, and Restore Balance are all viable, and that is not even counting decks that only some people classify as combo (RG Tron). But turn 3 combo wins are not needed. As a combo player, I actually like the turn 4 rule. It is fun thing to try to break.
Of the combo decks in Modern, very few are actually viable in the sense that they could win a major event. You could take some Dailies or FNMs with them, but you would never take down a PTQ or GP, especially not in today's metagame.
Here are the combo decks that are solidly viable in the current format:
Scapeshift
Twin
Living End
Melira Pod
Kiki Pod
As a longtime combo player, I am mildly offended by the concept of Pod decks being combo. Their backup midrange plan just doesn't sit well with my historic experience of combo, but I am still willing to include them on the list. All of these decks (perhaps with the exception of Living End) are longtime combo staples of our format, and even in the BGx era of today, they still remain viable. Their share has dropped, but they retain some relevance.
Then there's the list of non-viable combo decks. These range from decks that can take down dailies but not GPs (Amulet) to decks that are just totally dead in this metagame (Storm).
Ad Nauseam
Storm
Restore Balance
Tide
Eggs
Enduring Ideal
Death's Shadow
Griselbanned Cannon
Griselbrand Ooze
Amulet of Vigor
cheeri0s
Nivmiseit
I'm probably stretching the definition of playability with these decks, but all of these either have fairly high profile on this site, or have performed in events over the past months. But none of them, Restore Balance being the only possible exception, can really cut it outside of small metagames. They are locally viable. But they aren't viable across the broader metagame.
Returning to the first list, I should note that both Twin and Scapeshift have fallen on seriously hard times on MTGO. BGx has taken its toll on these decks, especially on Twin. That's why I want to see a Preordain unban, a card that would help not only the current tier 1 decks, but also bump up something like Storm back to real viability. As a combo player, I would love to see cards that push more of those non-viable decks into tier 2 status, but I acknowledge that this isn't really a function of unbannings. Bannings could do it, but I am not yet convinced that BGx needs a ban.
that was a sweet time to play. then rtr came and ruined it.
Yup, that was also before MMA was released so there are no Big Modern Tourneys back then in our area. My deck was UWR Delver and Mono U Fae. Now we have lots of Modern Tourneys after MMA release and RTR already ruined the playability of a lot of decks. But I just swallowed the bitter pill and thought those were the days when Blue was quite powerful in Modern and like the wheel of life it will eventually go back to Blue. Now I just have to embrace my Melira Pod and BGx decks and put the Blue decks in my closet for now. It's what I like in Modern, you can afford more decks and choose what to play when the meta changes compared to the more expensive formats.
Of the combo decks in Modern, very few are actually viable in the sense that they could win a major event. You could take some Dailies or FNMs with them, but you would never take down a PTQ or GP, especially not in today's metagame.
Here are the combo decks that are solidly viable in the current format:
Scapeshift
Twin
Living End
Melira Pod
Kiki Pod
As a longtime combo player, I am mildly offended by the concept of Pod decks being combo. Their backup midrange plan just doesn't sit well with my historic experience of combo, but I am still willing to include them on the list. All of these decks (perhaps with the exception of Living End) are longtime combo staples of our format, and even in the BGx era of today, they still remain viable. Their share has dropped, but they retain some relevance.
Then there's the list of non-viable combo decks. These range from decks that can take down dailies but not GPs (Amulet) to decks that are just totally dead in this metagame (Storm).
Ad Nauseam
Storm
Restore Balance
Tide
Eggs
Enduring Ideal
Death's Shadow
Griselbanned Cannon
Griselbrand Ooze
Amulet of Vigor
cheeri0s
Nivmiseit
I'm probably stretching the definition of playability with these decks, but all of these either have fairly high profile on this site, or have performed in events over the past months. But none of them, Restore Balance being the only possible exception, can really cut it outside of small metagames. They are locally viable. But they aren't viable across the broader metagame.
Returning to the first list, I should note that both Twin and Scapeshift have fallen on seriously hard times on MTGO. BGx has taken its toll on these decks, especially on Twin. That's why I want to see a Preordain unban, a card that would help not only the current tier 1 decks, but also bump up something like Storm back to real viability. As a combo player, I would love to see cards that push more of those non-viable decks into tier 2 status, but I acknowledge that this isn't really a function of unbannings. Bannings could do it, but I am not yet convinced that BGx needs a ban.
The sad thing is that every one of these decks except pod has a bad matchup against BGx, or can be raced by Affinity. The only reason pod has a good matchup here is because pod itself is a better value-tool against BGx, but I've heard that it's come down to 50/50 regardless right now with Scooze in the format.
There just is no good reason to play combo in the current metagame at a large tournament. Unless someone breaks something new that can consistently beat Jund and won't be raced by affinity, there just isn't any good reason to play combo. Without any need to play combo, there isn't any good incentive to play control in a meta that consists mostly of BGx, Tron, Affinity, and Pod. And henceforth, we get the entire format warping around Goyf, Bob, Deathrite, and Liliana.
I have to say, for the first time in a long time, I don't think there is much *actual* diversity in the format. There are a lot of tier 2 decks, but the difference between the tier, or even tier 1.5 strategies is just way too big of a gap between the power players of the format, those being Pod, BGx, Affinity, and RG Tron.
The Seething Song ban killed Enduring Ideal as well
@ktkenskinx do you list GR Tron under combo in your analysis?
I really don't think you can call Tron a combo deck. People have done it before and out of respect for the forum rules and them, I will disagree less forcefully than if I were asked outside of MTGS. It's a ramp deck, not a combo deck. Just because the deck uses synergies to win, that doesn't make it a combo deck.
This should be a huge indicator of systemic problems in the format.
Why is it a problem? Like I have been saying forever, Modern needs to be its own thing. Not a mirror of something already done.
I feel some want the format to be something it never could be and it angers some.
Afraid.
Without knowing everything behind it, I think its unfair to say afraid. Things happen in all business's that can not be explained to the customers, yet the company has to do things a certain way.
Looked at the banned list for this format yesterday and man is it ever stupid. I mean, how can they ban Bitterblossom, but let Splinter Twin be a deck... ugh. I love the format but they should let a lot of cards go. Same with Golgari Grave Troll and a few others. Wizards just went crazy with the ban hammer on this one.
Welcome to the forum. There are a few cards on the ban list like Preordain and GGT that even the most ardent of ban list supporters here disagree with. It seems like a lot of people here agree that close to half the ban list could come off safely and many others that think at least 2-3 cards could come off just fine. Personally, I'm in favor of a small banlist and I feel like the only card that 100% must be on the ban list would be Skullclamp. All others, I feel there could be some sort of rational argument as to why it should not be banned. But I'm in favor of a ban list around 1-10 cards long.
The reasonable thing for WOTC to do, IMO is to find some sort of middle ground where a large majority will be happy. Because I realize I am on one far end of the spectrum and there are others that actually think we need to add many more cards to the ban list. I don't need extremely powerful cards like Hypergenesis, Dark Depths and Blazing Shoal to be happy with modern but it would be nice to at least let us play with cards that are far from broken like Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, Preordain and GGT.
Honestly, they should just unban seething song and ban pyromancers accention. The accention was what was causing the problem imo.
No, Epic Experiment Storm was the deck that got it banned. The correct banning would be Grapeshot. Then storm would have to resort to weaker finishers like Empty the Warrens. It would still be a good but it would be about 1/2-1 turn slower on average.
No, Epic Experiment Storm was the deck that got it banned. The correct banning would be Grapeshot. Then storm would have to resort to weaker finishers like Empty the Warrens. It would still be a good but it would be about 1/2-1 turn slower on average.
Has Wotc ever banned the finisher for a deck? They seem to always go after the enabler.
Has Wotc ever banned the finisher for a deck? They seem to always go after the enabler.
Yes, that is normally the case and usually I think that's the right way to do it but not in every single case, IMO. I just wish WOTC would consider doing it the other way around some times when necessary.
Time for history you don't care about but probably need to know in order to understand this!
Basically, after Chronicals destroyed the "value" of some of the rarer cards, WotC pinkie promised not to print these old cards again (which was later revised to just the rare cards of these older sets) and as we all know, nopony breaks a pinkie promise.
Because of this "Reserve List", WotC refuse to reprint these old cards that are NEEDED for Legacy and Vintage to survive. Even though it's not a legal contract or enforceable in any way, they intend to stick to the promise.
So, instead of essentially printing money in the form of Dual Lands, WotC has decided to allow people who treat cardboard and ink as a hedge fund to hold the game hostage and kill off a popular format.
Modern is their answer to try and appease everyone by stripping out the problems of Legacy (Idiotic card prices, Early Installment Wackyness, low print runs exasperating the card price issue, playing anything but blue means you lose) while keeping all the benefits (Non-Rotating, thus Low Upkeep Cost) and introducing new ones ("Correct" colour pie, correctly costed spells, the ability to reprint things as needed, the ability to ban as needed).
No need for the history lesson, I have been playing since the beginning of the game. I understand what Chronicles did to the secondary market. I also know the out rage of the player base at the time because of Chronicles.
There has been rumors there is a lawsuit/undisclosed settlement which lead to the RL. If that is the case, they are not afraid, but hamstrung. AF and Maro have both said the RL is something everyone is going ot have to just deal with. We have limited information to what the whole agreement was so we dont know if its a legal issue or not. Anyone claiming any different is just speculating.
I dont care either way, I have the cards if I wish to play. But as long as the company keeps saying the RL is something we all have to just deal with, I am thinking its more 'cant' then 'afraid'.
I have to say, for the first time in a long time, I don't think there is much *actual* diversity in the format. There are a lot of tier 2 decks, but the difference between the tier, or even tier 1.5 strategies is just way too big of a gap between the power players of the format, those being Pod, BGx, Affinity, and RG Tron.
Good to know I am not the only one who thinks this
I really don't think you can call Tron a combo deck. People have done it before and out of respect for the forum rules and them, I will disagree less forcefully than if I were asked outside of MTGS. It's a ramp deck, not a combo deck. Just because the deck uses synergies to win, that doesn't make it a combo deck.
You hedged on Pod is the main reason I asked although I agree it is simply a ramp deck
There is a huge power level gap between tier 1 decks and tier 1.5/tier 2 decks
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
We didn't have a single ban for all of 2012. What is even better is that we had balanced archetypes, with decks like WB Tokens and Assault Loam winning Grand Prix and decks like Mono-U Fae, Soul Sisters, Ritual Gifts, Grixis Twin, RUG Delver, UW Tron, and WUR Delver making Top 8. You don't see that kind of diversity anymore. The format was regulating itself just fine until DRS and Decay were printed. And I still hope that the format can correct itself before a ban is needed. (Though I wouldn't mind a ban, it would make most of the decks that I want to play more powerful.)
I didn't see this, but this is 100% true. There was actual real diversity back then. Now? Not so much. This list also doesn't include competitively viable storm combo, Hive Mind (which wasn't bad back then), and UW caw-blade which were decks at that point in time.
Now, our diversity = splashing a different color in BGx to play "junk" instead of "jund". Regardless of the supposed "diversity" Bug, Junk, Jund, Ajundi... they're all basically the same deck playing the same core cards. Even the deathrite zoo decks play many of the same cards (Goyf, DRS & often Confidant).
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Why is it a problem? Like I have been saying forever, Modern needs to be its own thing. Not a mirror of something already done.
I feel some want the format to be something it never could be and it angers some.
It's a non rotating format. Non rotating. Not "Individual decks rotate into all powerful status and then get banned." Format. It's self defeating of having a non rotating format if it can't regulate itself.
Without knowing everything behind it, I think its unfair to say afraid. Things happen in all business's that can not be explained to the customers, yet the company has to do things a certain way.
It's perfectly fair. We all know there's money to be had in reprinting cards off the reserve list. They won't because they're afraid of similar consequences ala chronicles.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
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Combo is my favorite archetype. But it is doing fine in Modern. Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, Amulet of Vigor, Splinter Twin, Griselbrand Reanimator, Living End, and Restore Balance are all viable, and that is not even counting decks that only some people classify as combo (RG Tron). But turn 3 combo wins are not needed. As a combo player, I actually like the turn 4 rule. It is fun thing to try to break.
You are right, but I'd prefer getting Preordain and Ponder back over getting Infect Shoal back and I don't think that it would be fair with both cantrips back.
A metagame that can keep itself in check without bans should be the ideal for every format. Just because Legacy has it does not mean that it would make Modern another Legacy. I agree about fast combo, but I can see the other side's point of view.
Oh the horror! People have to spend 2 minutes of their lives looking up the meta on the internet to succeed in Modern. This spells doom for the format! Newer players shouldn't have to waste a few minutes of their lives to do well in the format! Ban the better decks!
This is the stupidest idea that I have ever heard in this thread, and that includes unbanning everything, banning Archive Trap for allowing turn 1 wins, banning Verdant Catacombs, and Stoneforge Mystic being better than Tinker. Modern was first announced as a format to be played in a tournament. Its first competitive event was a Pro Tour. Modern has never been a casual format. If you want to play casual magic, play Casual. Modern is for people who don't want the power level of Legacy but that want a non-rotating format. It is not for people who are too lazy to adjust their deck to the meta.
I wasn't playing Modern back then, but I know how you feel. I keep trying to make decks that aren't as good without Seething Song. Of course, most of those break the turn 4 rule, so it is probably a good thing that I don't have access to it. Still, I can imagine a Seething Song unban happening and I wuld support it.
If you miss Hive Mind, have you tried out Amulet of Vigor?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Two years. Is that enough time to understand the format doesnt have the tools to police itself?
Because Legacy is extremely expensive as of the past few years, and the only reason Modern exists is because WoTC was afraid to reprint all the cards needed to make Legacy a PTQ format, so they created modern.
It seemed to be doing fine when I first got here in May. Yes, Melira Pod was winning many Grand Prixs, but other than that, it wasn't dominant. It seems like the format was fine between the BBE and SS bans and the reprinting of Scavenging Ooze. It was also fine between the Zoo bans and Return to Ravnica. Modern could regulate itself if Wizards stopped pushing the BG shell so much.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Except the format has never been able to self regulate. A deck just gets more and more powerful until Wotc has to do something about it. Its the reason we have had the bans we have had.
Afraid or cant?
Until Legacy is a dead format, this argument is a moot point. Modern should be its own thing until if/when Legacy goes away for good.
We didn't have a single ban for all of 2012. What is even better is that we had balanced archetypes, with decks like WB Tokens and Assault Loam winning Grand Prix and decks like Mono-U Fae, Soul Sisters, Ritual Gifts, Grixis Twin, RUG Delver, UW Tron, and WUR Delver making Top 8. You don't see that kind of diversity anymore. The format was regulating itself just fine until DRS and Decay were printed. And I still hope that the format can correct itself before a ban is needed. (Though I wouldn't mind a ban, it would make most of the decks that I want to play more powerful.)
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You have a very loose definition of "viable" in that I think it can also be extended to some decks that simply "exist." To me viable means it has to have a chance of winning. I've bolded the only real ones that fit that.
Of those, the pod's classification of combo is in debate. (This forum can be weird, some description of a drink label "toolbox aroma with a strong combo finish and notes of aggro" is what's used.) Twin I'll grant you, not that I think it's putting up any results, and Griselbrand I'll hold up as a prime example of what I'm talking about for self police. If you do not prepare for it, it can beat you. If you do, it simply cannot.
Golgari Grave Troll is a card even the staunchest of ban apologists think is too much.
This should be a huge indicator of systemic problems in the format.
Afraid.
that was a sweet time to play. then rtr came and ruined it.
Of the combo decks in Modern, very few are actually viable in the sense that they could win a major event. You could take some Dailies or FNMs with them, but you would never take down a PTQ or GP, especially not in today's metagame.
Here are the combo decks that are solidly viable in the current format:
Scapeshift
Twin
Living End
Melira Pod
Kiki Pod
As a longtime combo player, I am mildly offended by the concept of Pod decks being combo. Their backup midrange plan just doesn't sit well with my historic experience of combo, but I am still willing to include them on the list. All of these decks (perhaps with the exception of Living End) are longtime combo staples of our format, and even in the BGx era of today, they still remain viable. Their share has dropped, but they retain some relevance.
Then there's the list of non-viable combo decks. These range from decks that can take down dailies but not GPs (Amulet) to decks that are just totally dead in this metagame (Storm).
Ad Nauseam
Storm
Restore Balance
Tide
Eggs
Enduring Ideal
Death's Shadow
Griselbanned Cannon
Griselbrand Ooze
Amulet of Vigor
cheeri0s
Nivmiseit
I'm probably stretching the definition of playability with these decks, but all of these either have fairly high profile on this site, or have performed in events over the past months. But none of them, Restore Balance being the only possible exception, can really cut it outside of small metagames. They are locally viable. But they aren't viable across the broader metagame.
Returning to the first list, I should note that both Twin and Scapeshift have fallen on seriously hard times on MTGO. BGx has taken its toll on these decks, especially on Twin. That's why I want to see a Preordain unban, a card that would help not only the current tier 1 decks, but also bump up something like Storm back to real viability. As a combo player, I would love to see cards that push more of those non-viable decks into tier 2 status, but I acknowledge that this isn't really a function of unbannings. Bannings could do it, but I am not yet convinced that BGx needs a ban.
Yup, that was also before MMA was released so there are no Big Modern Tourneys back then in our area. My deck was UWR Delver and Mono U Fae. Now we have lots of Modern Tourneys after MMA release and RTR already ruined the playability of a lot of decks. But I just swallowed the bitter pill and thought those were the days when Blue was quite powerful in Modern and like the wheel of life it will eventually go back to Blue. Now I just have to embrace my Melira Pod and BGx decks and put the Blue decks in my closet for now. It's what I like in Modern, you can afford more decks and choose what to play when the meta changes compared to the more expensive formats.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
@ktkenskinx do you list GR Tron under combo in your analysis?
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
Obviously he doesn't or else it would be under there.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The sad thing is that every one of these decks except pod has a bad matchup against BGx, or can be raced by Affinity. The only reason pod has a good matchup here is because pod itself is a better value-tool against BGx, but I've heard that it's come down to 50/50 regardless right now with Scooze in the format.
There just is no good reason to play combo in the current metagame at a large tournament. Unless someone breaks something new that can consistently beat Jund and won't be raced by affinity, there just isn't any good reason to play combo. Without any need to play combo, there isn't any good incentive to play control in a meta that consists mostly of BGx, Tron, Affinity, and Pod. And henceforth, we get the entire format warping around Goyf, Bob, Deathrite, and Liliana.
I have to say, for the first time in a long time, I don't think there is much *actual* diversity in the format. There are a lot of tier 2 decks, but the difference between the tier, or even tier 1.5 strategies is just way too big of a gap between the power players of the format, those being Pod, BGx, Affinity, and RG Tron.
I really don't think you can call Tron a combo deck. People have done it before and out of respect for the forum rules and them, I will disagree less forcefully than if I were asked outside of MTGS. It's a ramp deck, not a combo deck. Just because the deck uses synergies to win, that doesn't make it a combo deck.
Why is it a problem? Like I have been saying forever, Modern needs to be its own thing. Not a mirror of something already done.
I feel some want the format to be something it never could be and it angers some.
Without knowing everything behind it, I think its unfair to say afraid. Things happen in all business's that can not be explained to the customers, yet the company has to do things a certain way.
Welcome to the forum. There are a few cards on the ban list like Preordain and GGT that even the most ardent of ban list supporters here disagree with. It seems like a lot of people here agree that close to half the ban list could come off safely and many others that think at least 2-3 cards could come off just fine. Personally, I'm in favor of a small banlist and I feel like the only card that 100% must be on the ban list would be Skullclamp. All others, I feel there could be some sort of rational argument as to why it should not be banned. But I'm in favor of a ban list around 1-10 cards long.
The reasonable thing for WOTC to do, IMO is to find some sort of middle ground where a large majority will be happy. Because I realize I am on one far end of the spectrum and there are others that actually think we need to add many more cards to the ban list. I don't need extremely powerful cards like Hypergenesis, Dark Depths and Blazing Shoal to be happy with modern but it would be nice to at least let us play with cards that are far from broken like Bitterblossom, Sword of the Meek, Preordain and GGT.
No, Epic Experiment Storm was the deck that got it banned. The correct banning would be Grapeshot. Then storm would have to resort to weaker finishers like Empty the Warrens. It would still be a good but it would be about 1/2-1 turn slower on average.
Has Wotc ever banned the finisher for a deck? They seem to always go after the enabler.
Yes, that is normally the case and usually I think that's the right way to do it but not in every single case, IMO. I just wish WOTC would consider doing it the other way around some times when necessary.
No need for the history lesson, I have been playing since the beginning of the game. I understand what Chronicles did to the secondary market. I also know the out rage of the player base at the time because of Chronicles.
There has been rumors there is a lawsuit/undisclosed settlement which lead to the RL. If that is the case, they are not afraid, but hamstrung. AF and Maro have both said the RL is something everyone is going ot have to just deal with. We have limited information to what the whole agreement was so we dont know if its a legal issue or not. Anyone claiming any different is just speculating.
I dont care either way, I have the cards if I wish to play. But as long as the company keeps saying the RL is something we all have to just deal with, I am thinking its more 'cant' then 'afraid'.
Good to know I am not the only one who thinks this
You hedged on Pod is the main reason I asked although I agree it is simply a ramp deck
There is a huge power level gap between tier 1 decks and tier 1.5/tier 2 decks
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
I think so
I didn't see this, but this is 100% true. There was actual real diversity back then. Now? Not so much. This list also doesn't include competitively viable storm combo, Hive Mind (which wasn't bad back then), and UW caw-blade which were decks at that point in time.
Now, our diversity = splashing a different color in BGx to play "junk" instead of "jund". Regardless of the supposed "diversity" Bug, Junk, Jund, Ajundi... they're all basically the same deck playing the same core cards. Even the deathrite zoo decks play many of the same cards (Goyf, DRS & often Confidant).
It's perfectly fair. We all know there's money to be had in reprinting cards off the reserve list. They won't because they're afraid of similar consequences ala chronicles.