if we are all wrong- being non objective then whats right- objective? I was hoping you could expand on your point, I'm not trying to be a passive aggressive jerk (it might sound like this but tone is hard to pick up in a purley text based format). I am interested in EDH as a whole how do you break the colors down? How would you fix the power level?
As for the color identity I get what that is about. But you can not sit there and tell me that in a vacuum blue isn't the most broken color for EDH, and I'm not a person who hates on blue. All my edh decsk contain the color.
My point is that he is attempting to appear logical, and knowledgable, about the subject. However, it is clear that he has just had a bunch of bad experiences, and is now attempting to dictate how the game should be built, from design on up to play.
I never said anything about being non-objective being "wrong". What I do find fault in the OP's statements is the logical fallacies he presented in order to APPEAR objective. The dishonesty inherent in the statement bothers me.
How would I fix the power level? I wouldn't. Do I think the colors are balanced? No, I don't. You're right, "in a vacuum" blue is the best. It's no secret a significant chunk of the power-9 are blue, and there have been some really bonkers cards printed in blue. However in, easily, over 20,000 games of EDH I haven't ever experienced a "vacuum". Player ability, politics, threat assessment, deck-building skill, wallet-size, card availability, previous grudges, runaway leader, and "that-guy-at-the-table", all contribute the events of an EDH game. There is nothing vacuous about a game of EDH.
My core issue with the OP is that his post is whiny. I quote "These are my favorite 3 colors in magic. Why? They are fair. You can't find anything in these three colors that are obscenely stupid, infuriating, or broken." (Talking about Naya)
Actually, HE can't find those things. Probably because he has a point to make, and isn't capable of that kind of objective observing. I can find any number of cards in those colors that are infuriating and broken. "Obscenely stupid?" Excuse me? That's not even a relevant adjective. If we are talking about the definition of stupid, well I just found Craw Wurm and Grizzly Bears. Those are pretty dumb creatures. If we are talking about what HE finds stupid, well then we aren't in interesting discussion or constructive design philosphy territory anymore, we are back to the OP just whining about something HE thinks is unfair that happened to him.
Back to the Naya colors discussion point, the most winning-est deck in my meta? Mayael. My buddy has a Mayael deck that is bonkers. It does a lot of really "unfair" and "broken
" things. But I find no reason to get online and say that those three colors are unfair, and that they can do anything and everything, and that all colors should have access to their side of the color pie.
Gosh, blue really needs a way to destroy enchantments, artifacts, and exile creatures. White, Green and Red, are just so unfair! They can literally do anything!
Like Galspanic said, it's not the cards, or the game, it's the players. It's us. It's the OP. The only people any of us have to blame for a bad experience playing this game, is ourselves and the people we play with. There was just another topic recently about someone complaining about a turn 5 win, but the complainer didn't pack an answer! That's not the cards fault for being able to combo out, or even the player who assembled the combo (There are many, many, many people who enjoy combo. Who are WE to dictate what is or isn't fun for other people?), is the fault of the person who refuses to play answers and then whines that something unfair happened to them.
Some argue that Blue should never have had card draw as part of its color pie identity because it is a necessary function of the game. Well by that rubric, green should never be able to ramp, because putting one land into play a turn is a necessary limiting function of the game. The game of Magic is a set of fairly simple rules. The cards are created to purposefully let us break those rules in an interesting way. Blue gets to break the card draw rule (techinically so does Black and Green). Green gets to break the 1 land a turn rule. That is the beauty of the game and the color pie and the inherent inequality in the colors.
Sorry, that went on quite a bit longer than I intended. I hope that answers your question?
My stance has been that card draw should have never been a "flavor mechanic" of blue. It's an invaluable game mechanic for all card games, and any experienced player knows that drawing more cards expands your options. Few card games put any sort of check and balance against drawing a lot of cards.
My stance has been that land ramp should have never been a "flavorful mechanic" of green. It's an invaluable game mechanic for all games, and any experienced player knows that getting more land expands your options. Few card games put any sort of check and balance against putting out lots of resources.
This was working on being a much longer post, but HalfSlothHalfCamel stole all my thunders!
I do have a couple of things to add, though. My playgroup and I discuss this idea rather frequently.
My LGS once did a small event where everybody played a mono color general. Pretty good turnout, so there was lots of representation across all colors. Sure, blue was probably the heaviest played (including myself). Know who won? A Linvala deck that was, to this day, the standard against which I measure my ability to build mono W decks. You know what it beat? My mono U, very well-tuned Azami deck, 2 Azusa decks, and a Chainer deck (plus a slew of other things).
All colors don't do everything equally, and they never, ever should. Blue draws cards, green ramps, white and black have powerful removal. Black gets good spot removal, decent mass removal, and gets to compliment the removal with card draw for life payments. White gets the best mass removal in the game, the ability to exile things, as well as the ability to remove enchantments/artifacts. You don't see blue players trying to build decks that are built around destroying everything on the board, nor should a mono white deck be built around trying to draw lots of cards. Blue goes into deck construction knowing that anything that hits the table is going to be problematic, while white constructs its decks around being able to answer the things that are on the battlefield. These are two very different deck building ideas, and they each have their inherent strengths and weaknesses.
White's card advantage comes not from its ability to draw cards, but from its ability to do multiple things with a single card. Blue can one-for-one counterspell some things using one card for every counter, but white can Wrath everything away using a single card. Both are forms of card advantage; they just function differently and are more or less useful depending on the given situation.
Suggesting that all colors should be good at everything that every other color is good at is approximately the same as saying everything should just be colorless so nothing has color identity. The strengths and weaknesses of a color determine how they are played as well as the flavor each has. Homogenizing them utterly defeats any need for different colors and destroys a critical part of the way Magic works.
Long story short, and in complete agreement with several others above me, I think the OP should rethink the idea that the whole game needs to be rebalanced. It does not. A good mono W deck is perfectly capable of winning games against any other deck (regardless of the colors of that deck) so long as the deck's creator is willing to look at what the color is good at and build to those strengths rather that trying to build a blue deck with white cards.
My point is that he is attempting to appear logical, and knowledgable, about the subject. However, it is clear that he has just had a bunch of bad experiences, and is now attempting to dictate how the game should be built, from design on up to play.
I never said anything about being non-objective being "wrong". What I do find fault in the OP's statements is the logical fallacies he presented in order to APPEAR objective. The dishonesty inherent in the statement bothers me.
How would I fix the power level? I wouldn't. Do I think the colors are balanced? No, I don't. You're right, "in a vacuum" blue is the best. It's no secret a significant chunk of the power-9 are blue, and there have been some really bonkers cards printed in blue. However in, easily, over 20,000 games of EDH I haven't ever experienced a "vacuum". Player ability, politics, threat assessment, deck-building skill, wallet-size, card availability, previous grudges, runaway leader, and "that-guy-at-the-table", all contribute the events of an EDH game. There is nothing vacuous about a game of EDH.
My core issue with the OP is that his post is whiny. I quote "These are my favorite 3 colors in magic. Why? They are fair. You can't find anything in these three colors that are obscenely stupid, infuriating, or broken." (Talking about Naya)
Actually, HE can't find those things. Probably because he has a point to make, and isn't capable of that kind of objective observing. I can find any number of cards in those colors that are infuriating and broken. "Obscenely stupid?" Excuse me? That's not even a relevant adjective. If we are talking about the definition of stupid, well I just found Craw Wurm and Grizzly Bears. Those are pretty dumb creatures. If we are talking about what HE finds stupid, well then we aren't in interesting discussion or constructive design philosphy territory anymore, we are back to the OP just whining about something HE thinks is unfair that happened to him.
1. I'm looking at this objectively. Yes, I probably have some bias because my favorite color is green, but that's why we have discussions. That's why I list examples. Everyone has a little bias. If you compare cards like Mana Drain, and Necropotence to ANY card in the naya shard. Tell me a card that is on the same power level as those cards. Kiki-Jiki? He is strictly a win condition and requires another card to go off. Once he dies you are screwed. He generates no card advantage. He is all in. I can't think of another card in red more powerful thank Kiki, and he's hardly broken, in fact hes far from it. You have two windows to stop him (Him and the combo). Sylvan Primordial is nuts but it can be dealt with on the stack, which is what blue is great for, but thats also its downfall. You spend X amount of turns ramping into this guy or finding a way to cheat him in early then he gets countered? Oooops thats some serious tempo loss. I can't even think of anything white has that is close to that power level. White is pretty much the color of "I play fair," which in this format isn't very good.
2. Just to clarify to everyone, I have no problem with mana drain. I think its just a good example of another really powerful card that blue has access to.
3. Actually, a lot of these things did not happen to me directly. They happened to other people I know. I am speaking on other peoples behalf, and my own for that matter.
Back to the Naya colors discussion point, the most winning-est deck in my meta? Mayael. My buddy has a Mayael deck that is bonkers. It does a lot of really "unfair" and "broken" things. But I find no reason to get online and say that those three colors are unfair, and that they can do anything and everything, and that all colors should have access to their side of the color pie.
Gosh, blue really needs a way to destroy enchantments, artifacts, and exile creatures. White, Green and Red, are just so unfair! They can literally do anything!
Like Galspanic said, it's not the cards, or the game, it's the players. It's us. It's the OP. The only people any of us have to blame for a bad experience playing this game, is ourselves and the people we play with. There was just another topic recently about someone complaining about a turn 5 win, but the complainer didn't pack an answer! That's not the cards fault for being able to combo out, or even the player who assembled the combo (There are many, many, many people who enjoy combo. Who are WE to dictate what is or isn't fun for other people?), is the fault of the person who refuses to play answers and then whines that something unfair happened to them.
Some argue that Blue should never have had card draw as part of its color pie identity because it is a necessary function of the game. Well by that rubric, green should never be able to ramp, because putting one land into play a turn is a necessary limiting function of the game. The game of Magic is a set of fairly simple rules. The cards are created to purposefully let us break those rules in an interesting way. Blue gets to break the card draw rule (techinically so does Black and Green). Green gets to break the 1 land a turn rule. That is the beauty of the game and the color pie and the inherent inequality in the colors.
Sorry, that went on quite a bit longer than I intended. I hope that answers your question?
1. Congratulations. You successfully destroyed the straw man.
2. As someone who piloted mayael for 2-3 years, if SHE is the most winning-est thing in your meta, then your meta is probably a lot more casual than you think. Which is perfectly okay. This is probably why you think I am being a whiner. I am talking about 100% optimization of all decks. As in here's 3000 dollars, build a Mayael deck. Mayael 100% optimized can't handle Azami or Zur optimized. It just can't. It doesn't have access to the same power level of cards. Sometimes the only way to win with that deck was to pit people against each other while you go, "don't mind me look at the zur player... oh and Lurking Predators trigger..."
3. The notion that we are the problem is completely ludicrous. Lets say I'm playing Video Game X. Video Game X has one weapon that lets the wielder do pretty much whatever they want and kill whoever they want unless they get unlucky. Every single player has access to this weapon, so eventually, everyone packs this weapon in their arsenal so they don't die to other people wielding said weapon. Sounds like a design issue to me.
Other arguments from other people:
1. Nerfing blue isn't an option at this point. That would require banning a bunch of cards.
2. White already has card draw in its color pie. Just not a whole lot of it. If the card draw is mostly enchantment based especially then its DEFINATLEY in the color pie.
Originally Posted by Galspanic
I feel like the OP missed a few things though...
Step #5 - Play EDH outside of local game shops. There are plenty of other venues that offer better opportunities to socialize. If you live in a decent sized city, bars and restaurants are great places to play MTG (assuming you pay your table tax and are careful about keeping liquids away from cards). Schools tend to draw more ridicule than they are worth, so invite people from school over to your house. It may sound less social than a game shop, but there seems to be a natural psyche in most shops that reinforces whining and bad habits. People can't adapt as easily (from observations).
Step #6 - Don't be awkward anti-social geeks. Don't use the game as a wall you put between yourself and other people. It's supposed to be the thing that gives your hands something to do and your mouth something to talk about. The main goal is still to hang out, talk, and interact with other humans. This world can be pretty damn dark and cold for a lot of us. Don't blow the easy chances given to you to warm it up a bit.
Step #7 - Girls. Seriously, having more women involved in the grand EDH-Meta game might help people accomplish #5 and #6. The game is so painfully male that the socialization we have misses a lot of what it could accomplish. A more diverse play group in terms of age, gender, and interests keeps things interesting, but also fosters more actual discussion - as opposed to passive aggressive douchebaggery like most of the people here report.
The cards aren't the problem. We are.
These have nothing to do with game design. EDH is a social format, yes, that's why I like it. But still, when you are designing a game you need to look at it as if it is going to be completely balanced without the implementation of house rules. The rules I put up were more rules for printing cards. As I recall. It was like 2:30 AM so I don't exactly remember? But yeah.
Edit:
It should be noted I am not proposing any radical changes here. Everything I proposed is within the color pie. In fact, wizards is already doing a tiny bit of what I've said, they just need to do a whole lot more of it, and stop printing crazy good blue cards. Yeah that 5 drop white enchantment is really good, but that's the point. It would be the "Oh that's that new awesome white draw engine woah that's nuts." Even though on the surface, if you compare that to something blue would get, that card is relatively pretty fair. Its not like they would make a billion of these. Its still a singleton format. And I'd suggest not picking apart my attempt at specific card designs, I'm not a professional card designer. I just wanted to illustrate my point.
The issue is that Naya can handle Zur is the pilot is purely meta against U/B or U/W.
I saw a Naya deck take over the game on turn 3 by a Wildfire with 2 mana rocks in play. Even if they had Force of Will or Blue Elemental Blast. They couldn't have stopped their next spell which was Life from the Loam to recur their Wasteland/Strip Mind, and fetches.
That's not a true for the notion that NAya can't handle Zur or Azami. I can make a broken Naya that wrecks blue, it's easy. It just takes a lot of testing and research.
I will post an example later of cards to ruin blue in Naya.
In Naya you get access to all the White LD spells, Red LD Spells, Green ramp spells, and artifact and enchant removal. Sneak Attack, Survival, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Pattern of Rebirth, Tooth and Nail, Crop Rotation into Gaea's Cradle or Boseiju.
You have outs against blue, but you have to warp the entire deck around it.
Plus you could run a Aether Vial package and tutors for it ensure your spells aren't countered.
Every deck has access to Cavern of Souls which also stops blue, and name Human or Elf or whatever big bomb you want to drop on them.
Every deck can run Smokestack, so that's an option against blue. Just go artifact ramp/Wildfire/Jokulhaups/Aggro-Stax Naya instead of tradition Lamp Ramp Naya.
If you feel blue players have it too easy, then start playing mean with non-blue decks. We all know blue has too easy, but deal with it, how did I deal with in when I was playing R/B Goblin in Legacy against 75% of the meta being U/x Tempo/Control or U/B Combo. I was still able to crush Faeries and Countertop with my Vial Goblin deck before Cavern of Souls came out.
Simple solution; play smarter and more aggressive against blue. We can help with that if that's your first solution to this issue.
Edit: Trying to play Battlefield IV and type on here is not easy.
The issue is that Naya can handle Zur is the pilot is purely meta against U/B or U/W.
I saw a Naya deck take over the game on turn 3 by a Wildfire with 2 mana rocks in play. Even if they had Force of Will or Blue Elemental Blast. They couldn't have stopped their next spell which was Life from the Loam to recur their Wasteland/Strip Mind, and fetches.
That's not a true for the notion that NAya can't handle Zur or Azami. I can make a broken Naya that wrecks blue, it's easy. It just takes a lot of testing and research.
I will post an example later of cards to ruin blue in Naya.
In Naya you get access to all the White LD spells, Red LD Spells, Green ramp spells, and artifact and enchant removal. Sneak Attack, Survival, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Pattern of Rebirth, Tooth and Nail, Crop Rotation into Gaea's Cradle or Boseiju.
You have outs against blue, but you have to warp the entire deck around it.
Plus you could run a Aether Vial package and tutors for it ensure your spells aren't countered.
Every deck has access to Cavern of Souls which also stops blue, and name Human or Elf or whatever big bomb you want to drop on them.
Every deck can run Smokestack, so that's an option against blue. Just go artifact ramp/Wildfire/Jokulhaups/Aggro-Stax Naya instead of tradition Lamp Ramp Naya
Edit: Trying to play Battlefield IV and type on here is not easy.
So I have to play a specific strategy of denial in order to stop blue? I have access to 3 colors. Out of those 3 colors, we can come up with one strategy that, if we can hopefully get online, will shut down blue. Seems dry to me. I'd rather them enchance other strategies in the game to cripple the OP ones, as banning the cards that make the OP ones good wont fix the problem (the list is too long). Blue decks usually run quite a few mana rocks as well in the upper tiers, so I'm not sure the LD route necessarily helps too much anyways. Not to mention we are still talking about a multiplayer format, and if you do get a strip mine lock on the board, the players that you aren't locking down are likely to come after you after they put the blue player down, because you are big threat #2.
How do we beat every deck that has blue in it without having blue?
"I guess you play a weird stax LD thing and make everyone hate you more than the blue player."
...Or... wizards could address that they have a problem in one of their formats and fix it.
You can easily win a few games here and there vs blue. Consistency is the issue with most decks that don't have blue. Blue and black are super consistent, and therefore the best colors in the format for doing what this format likes to do best... combo off.
1. I'm looking at this objectively. Yes, I probably have some bias because my favorite color is green, but that's why we have discussions. That's why I list examples. Everyone has a little bias.
Then you aren't objective. Quit lying to yourself and attempting to present a case objectively. It's dishonest.
If you compare cards like Mana Drain, and Necropotence to ANY card in the naya shard. Tell me a card that is on the same power level as those cards. Kiki-Jiki? He is strictly a win condition and requires another card to go off. Hardly broken.
Mana Drain isn't a win condition. Neither is Necropotence. They both require another card to "go off". You're losing ground here. Unless I'm wrong here... tell me how I'm gonna win with Mana Drain by itself? How am I gonna win with Necropotence by itself?
Sylvan Primordial is nuts but it can be dealt with on the stack, which is what blue is great for, but thats also its downfall. You spend X amount of turns ramping into this guy or finding a way to cheat him in early then he gets countered?
Well if you're cheating him into play you're likely using an activated ability or a triggered ability. Which I'm pretty sure there are only 12 cards in all of magic that can stop that. (many of which, by the way, are in green)
Oooops thats some serious tempo loss. I can't even think of anything white has that is close to that power level. White is pretty much the color of "I play fair," which in this format isn't very good.
Terminus, Wrath of God, Final Judgment, and friends all disagree with you. To use your example. I ramp out and get a bunch of fatties into play, or I cheat a bunch of fatties into play, and then you wrath, tuck, or exile all my stuff? That's some serious tempo loss and an INSANE amount of card advantage for you. In this format wraths aren't very good? Time to pack it in guys! We have all been playing EDH wrong for a number of years. Mass removal sucks. We have all been really dumb.
2. As someone who piloted mayael for 2-3 years, if SHE is the most winning-est thing in your meta, then your meta is probably a lot more casual than you think.
I never claimed my meta is competitive. I think that casual vs competitive argument is asinine. However, since that seems to lend weight to this argument, in your opinion, my meta does include a Zur, Sharuum, Azami, Azusa, etc., on and on. For the record my Tariel STAX deck, has never lost to a deck that has blue in it. Maybe my Tariel deck is more tuned that the U/x decks I have played against? But that's not likely. Tariel isn't hated either. I get requests to play it all the time because it is FUN. Blue just can't handle STAX very well. And finally, my Tariel deck isn't even tuned to shut down blue. It just does it incidentally by doing what it already does.
Which is perfectly okay. This is probably why you think I am being a whiner.
1) I didn't ask for your approval. 2) Your tone, the way you describe cards you don't like as "obscenely stupid", your reply about being objective, your willful ignorance of the color pie, the fact you made this post, and your attitude are what make me think you're being a whiner.
1) If you're dropping 3 grand on a single deck, I would think you would understand the game of Magic at least a little more than you're proving evident. 2) If you're dropping 3 grand on a single deck, you're far, far in the minority of Magic players, and your experiences are not respective of the greater Magic population and as such your opinion on what is or isn't "fair" simply isn't viable from a design standpoint.
It doesn't have access to the same power level of cards.
Card power level is not the only variable. I can beat my girlfriend using only commons, while she runs rares. Why? Player experience. In a multiplayer game the advantage powerful cards give a player is mitigated more and more by how many players are at the table. That is further mitigated by the respective skill of each player.
Sometimes the only way to win with that deck was to pit people against each other while you go, "don't mind me look at the zur player... oh and Lurking Predators trigger..."
Welcome to multiplayer games. And you know what? If an azami deck is beating a table 3v1, those are some terrible players. Play one game against Zur, Azami, Azusa, Mayael, Sharuum, etc. and you know what they do. If your meta lets that happen that's your problem.
3. The notion that we are the problem is completely ludicrous.
No it isn't. Magic is a social game. If it wasn't you, or me, or Galspanic that is the problem, why don't I share your views? Why do so many people in this thread disagree with you, or disagree with me for that matter. We are simply not in a vacuum, there are no absolutes.
Lets say I'm playing Video Game X. Video Game X has one weapon that lets the wielder do pretty much whatever they want and kill whoever they want unless they get unlucky.
Every single player has access to this weapon, so eventually, everyone packs this weapon in their arsenal so they don't die to other people wielding said weapon. Sounds like a design issue to me.
Not everyone has access to Mana Drain (not that, that card is an instant win anyway). Aaaaaand. There is only one Mana Drain. Wizards doesn't print that anymore. You know what they did do? They printed a similar card in Blue AND Green, but hey I don't see you complaining about that.
2. White already has card draw in its color pie. Just not a whole lot of it.
That's because it isn't the best at card draw. You know it is awesome at? Killing stuff. Where blue lacks severely. As another poster commented, White gets card advantage in other ways. Embrace that each color is unique, they do different things, appeal to different kinds of people and players. homogeneity is NOT a good solution.
If the card draw is mostly enchantment based especially then its DEFINATLEY in the color pie.
You don't understand the color pie. Just because something is an enchantment doesn't make it white's domain in the color pie. Mana Reflection, Necropotence, Sneak Attack all say hi.
Never going to happen. Not possible. Even the Euro board games that are designed from the ground up to be exercises in equivilancy and "balanced" aren't completely balanced. And they don't have the kind of interactivity and growth that Magic does. Honestly, man, it just sounds like Magic isn't the game for you. You don't seem to like or appreciate the things that are so beautiful about Magic and its design. Of course that could just be you not appreciating the things that I find compelling, so this is more of a simple observation rather than a submittal for argument.
I'm not a professional card designer. I just wanted to illustrate my point.
Exactly. There are people who do this way better than you, who rely on the color pie, and the way it dictactes the creation of cards, for their livelihood. They do a very good job of it too. If you think you can do better, next time they do a Great Designer Search, apply and see how far your intrepretation of balance, the color pie, and how you want to redefine it, get you.
My group (consistently 4-6 players) had an issue with blue-ish combo decks in our EDH meta, so a couple of us built anti-combo decks. They were even decent decks on their own!!
So I have to play a specific strategy of denial in order to stop blue? I have access to 3 colors. Out of those 3 colors, we can come up with one strategy that, if we can hopefully get online, will shut down blue. Seems dry to me. I'd rather them enhance other strategies in the game to cripple the OP ones, as banning the cards that make the OP ones good wont fix the problem (the list is too long). Blue decks usually run quite a few mana rocks as well in the upper tiers, so I'm not sure the LD route necessarily helps too much anyways. Not to mention we are still talking about a multiplayer format, and if you do get a strip mine lock on the board, the players that you aren't locking down are likely to come after you after they put the blue player down, because you are big threat #2.
How do we beat every deck that has blue in it without having blue?
"I guess you play a weird stax LD thing and make everyone hate you more than the blue player."
...Or... wizards could address that they have a problem in one of their formats and fix it.
You can essential play Red-Workshop in EDH, but make it Naya.
Artifact base of course, LD package, but dudes that attack, Equipment and targeted LD.
If you don't like my solution which works, then why are you replying to me?
I've tested it many times in my non-blue decks and it wins most the time. Landing a well timed Boom/Bust with Smokestack in play or 6+ power with equipment or a full hand/Crucible is what you want.
You need to assess your situation and alienate those who aren't in the anti-blue plan.
Who cares if they aren't left behind, do you play EDH for random scrubs to enjoy their time. I sure don't, I'll be nice to Galspanic, Phil, Kraus911, Robtheman, and other people we know, but not some random noob who complains about LD.
If you haven't notice what wins in upper tier decks all have the same strategy. It's easy, simple as this mana development, mana denial, card draw, removal.
Win conditions can come in later, if your opponents can't cast spells, how do they win?
If you Trading Post goat token with Sword of Feast and Famine on it, that's a clock. The best way to beat blue is to out resource it, blue wins by incremental card advantage.
Edit: You know how many games I lost with my Intet and Azusa deck against blue? All of 5 out 20 games. You know why I was winning those games? Land destruction and main targeting the blue player. Weird right? It's like my ideas are correct in my meta. Example #1: I won a 5 player game on turn 4 with my Azusa deck with turn 3 Sundering Titan, copied it with Scultping Steel, then sacrificed it Miren, the Moaning Well to negate the life loss from Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault.
Example #2: I won a 4 player game on turn ~5/6 off a Tooth and Nail into Emrakul and misc fatty with Anger in my graveyard. I had previously cast Intuition making auto-lose pile for the blue players. They were tapped out, so they only had Force of Will/Pact of Negation, and if they Force'd it, sure. I still had my general which I cast on turn 4. If they has cast Pact of Negation, I had Boom/Bust to make them lose at their upkeep. They know that since they previously V. Clique'd to see my plan.
The reason why my non-blue decks work is because I am a blue/black player at heart. My Intet deck ran 10 counter, 2 Stifle effects vs infinite combo, 8 spot removal, V. Clique, Thadda Adel vs Artifacts, 7 mana rocks, 5 ramp spells, infinite combos, mass LD, Windfall/Wheel of Fortune to mess up people's perfectly sculpted hands through cheating by mulling like ten times.
I build all my decks intended to play like a blue deck. Do you want to see how my mono-black or mono-red deck would look like? Take a guess, I'm pretty sure you know the answer already.
HalfSlothHalfCamel I don't think you understand what I am saying at all. And I don't know why you think my tone is upset or something. I love magic. Its mostly the only game I play. You are refuting things I'm not even saying.
By the way, I don't have 3000 dollars to spend on cards. I could barely afford buying two of the commander decks. I was using an example to illustrate card pool. Blue has an access to way more strategies than the other colors do, and can do it better than a lot of other colors.
HalfSlothHalfCamel I don't think you understand what I am saying at all. And I don't know why you think my tone is upset or something. I love magic. Its mostly the only game I play. You are refuting things I'm not even saying.
By the way, I don't have 3000 dollars to spend on cards. I could barely afford buying two of the commander decks. I was using an example to illustrate card pool. Blue has an access to way more strategies than the other colors do, and can do it better than a lot of other colors.
Dan has a point. I made those decks to exploit people who don't run spot removal. Now that they are banned, those decks if I were to recreate them would less powerful, but still consistent.
Any B/x control can win against blue very easily with access to mass discard like Mind Twist, Rakdos's Return, Mind Slash (Stax/Nath mostly), Mindslicer, Sire of Insanity.
Do you think I have $3000 USD to spend on cards?
You know much money I have to spend on cards this year? None, I haven't gotten any of those 2013 Commander pre-cons because I feel like they are a waste of money.
If I wanted money cards, go to LGS and trade in your junk rares for Mana Crypt, and the rest of your EDH deck.
Who's going to trade for your 20x Warp Worlds' anyways?
Blue does have it easier, I believe we can all agree on that. I feel like your missing the point entirely tough, black is just as good. You seem to agree with that as well since it's ranked #2, but I feel like Green is better than black in most metas; competitive or casual. This statement is coming from a hardcore Black Control player, so that might actually mean something to you.
Dan has a point. I made those decks to exploit people who don't run spot removal. Now that they are banned, those decks if I were to recreate them would less powerful, but still consistent.
Any B/x control can win against blue very easily with access to mass discard like Mind Twist, Rakdos's Return, Mind Slash (Stax/Nath mostly), Mindslicer, Sire of Insanity.
Do you think I have $3000 USD to spend on cards?
You know much money I have to spend on cards this year? None, I haven't gotten any of those 2013 Commander pre-cons because I feel like they are a waste of money. I
f I wanted money cards, go to Time Vault and trade in your junk rares for Mana Crypt, and the rest of your EDH deck.
Who's going to trade for your 20x Warp Worlds' anyways?
Blue does have it easier, I believe we can all agree on that. I feel like your missing the point entirely tough, black is just as good. You seem to agree with that as well since it's ranked #2, but I feel like Green is better than black in most metas; competitive or casual. This statement is coming from a hardcore Black Control player, so that might actually mean something to you.
I feel your pain. It ended up I shouldn't have bought the deck because I got behind on bills... but hey. I missed out last time the commander products came out I wasn't missing out this time!
Yes B/x can stop blue... but like you said black can be as bad as blue sometimes. Naya shard is what gets the shaft here. I feel like green is as good as black in a lot of metas because it tailors to the casual-social sort of play style that a lot of players like. "I play my fatty, pass turn, spend the next 15 minutes talking to my buds. If someone tries to touch it, tap me on the shoulder I might have a response!" With blue and black you have to pay a lot more attention to whats going on. Every spell could be something you want to interact with.
I feel your pain. It ended up I shouldn't have bought the deck because I got behind on bills... but hey. I missed out last time the commander products came out I wasn't missing out this time!
Yes B/x can stop blue... but like you said black can be as bad as blue sometimes. Naya shard is what gets the shaft here. I feel like green is as good as black in a lot of metas because it tailors to the casual-social sort of play style that a lot of players like. "I play my fatty, pass turn, spend the next 15 minutes talking to my buds. If someone tries to touch it, tap me on the shoulder I might have a response!" With blue and black you have to pay a lot more attention to whats going on. Every spell could be something you want to interact with.
After all these post, I think the conclusion comes down to this...
"Your meta determines whether certain colours are better than the others, and your playgroup also creates a rift in what is considered good/bad. If all archetypes are represented, any deck can function well regardless if the general has U in it's casting cost. The players ultimately determine the caliber of the deck's performance and quality."
I actually stopped buying EDH-only material after my friends and I pooled in on a 2011 Commander product. It was garbage to me, bad investment on my part, but hey what's $35 anyways? At the time, it was less than the total amount I receive in tips in 2 days of working part time at a Sushi Bar. In the end, not a big loss, but next I see new product for magic, specially EDH. For next time, just think about the money investment on Wizard's EDH product, and determine the right line of play.
It comes down to it, if you want something for your EDH decks - buy it, it saves time and effort.
I've learned to start using less jank cards, and actually good cards now. I use to play Salvaging Station package, but too slow for me. I don't want to to all-in on mana denial, I want to win my games before turn 30 if all possible. For those people still using Salvaging Station package; have fun clogging up your deck slots with janky cantrip'n artifacts instead of real spells.
After all these post, I think the conclusion comes down to this...
"Your meta determines whether certain colours are better than the others, and your playgroup also creates a rift in what is considered good/bad. If all archetypes are represented, any deck can function well regardless if the general has U in it's casting cost. The players ultimately determine the caliber of the deck's performance and quality."
No. That's exactly what I said shouldn't be a factor when assessing the game/card pool. Local meta does not factor in. The larger optimized meta is what needs to be tested and worked with. I'm looking strictly at the card pool and the power levels of decks. Blue is OP. If I was looking at my local meta, then I probably wouldn't be saying this.
It comes down to it, if you want something for your EDH decks - buy it, it saves time and effort.
I pretty much trade for everything. Thats why I got the decks. Mostly for trade fodder... that and I already had a Marath deck constructed and I needed the actual card itself. So why not get full value and grab the whole deck? Got both of mine at target for 30. (got the bant one too)
No. That's exactly what I said shouldn't be a factor when assessing the game/card pool. Local meta does not factor in. The larger optimized meta is what needs to be tested and worked with. I'm looking strictly at the card pool and the power levels of decks. Blue is OP. If I was looking at my local meta, then I probably wouldn't be saying this.
You're right, this format doesn't work when looking at it from that perspective. The whole reason it works is because of local metas solving their own problems and adapting.
However, I can't see any situation where that would be the case, barring non-1v1 EDH tournaments (which are a complete joke anyway).
There's also Green's vast array of creatures, EtB effects and others that can handle problems, and its massive amount of mana generation...
I guess they need to give green even more tools, as it's not the color Blue.
... Uh. I didn't say green needed much help. I said It just needed some more big guys that can fight stuff, along with some strong anti-blue cards. It needs answers to creatures within its fight mechanic that are playable. Its ability to answer things is very limited right now. Most of the focus was on white and red if you'd re-read. They need the most help. Poor guys.
I find that in Naya colors, playing against blue isn't much of an issue. Yes we do need to dedicate precious slots to anti-countermagic, just like how decks have slots for spot removal and such. If countermagic is rampant in your meta, it might be time to pick up some anti-countermagic tech.
Price of Glory is one such card that only hinders players who like to cast spells during opponents' turns.
If you notice, the only reason which U and B are top for most of the time is due to the unwillingness of a rather big group of EDH community to embrace a particular control strategy which the other three colors (WRG) share, resource control (Land destruction). I find that this alone makes the results heavily skewed in favor to blue and black as they are the only 2 colors left with intact resource control (spell control aka countermagic and card control aka discard)
GW has access to most of the hatebears: gaddock, thalia, aven mindcensor, canonist, stony silence, kataki, null rod, grand abolisher, sigarda, linvala, scavenging ooze, etc, etc, etc. Seriously you can make a really good G.Teeg deck just putting hate bears on it. Really just don't play big dumb cards and just focus on efficient bears, with top curve on Elesh Norn.
If you want to play mono colored decks, I think black is better that blue because some black generals are pretty powerful on their own and make good use of the ramp and the tutors (Iname, Skittles)
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks:
GBW NO Elves / Aggro Elves GBWU Combo Elves
EDH Decks:
Duel Commander: GG Thrun, the last Trolololol GG GW The Captain WG GWB Karadores BWG GWU Jenara UWG UWB Oloro-DD BWU
My stance has been that land ramp should have never been a "flavorful mechanic" of green. It's an invaluable game mechanic for all games, and any experienced player knows that getting more land expands your options. Few card games put any sort of check and balance against putting out lots of resources.
Do you agree with this view as well?
No, I do not agree with that view. Land ramp with no card draw doesn't necessarily expand your game options. Card draw, even in card games with no resource management, is still very valuable. Extra cards in your hand at any given resource level is way more versatile than a fixed number of cards in your hand with extra resources. Player 1 can ramp very fast, but if player 2 can draw through their deck to find an answer to what Player 1 was going to do with all that mana, player 2 seems to have been more "efficient." Craziness ensues when a player ramps AND draws/tutors to the card(s) needed to win/explode. Ramp by itself doesn't feel too broken.
If I could only choose between "resource acceleration" or "card draw" in the design of a card game, I'd choose card draw every time.
The analysis about how black is the second-best because discard is second-best to permission is preposterous. There are only a handful of MP playable discard spells. Single target discard is very bad.
Green is better than black in this format. It might even be better than blue. I thought people knew that.
U>B>G>W>R might generally hold true but not in EDH.
The analysis about how black is the second-best because discard is second-best to permission is preposterous. There are only a handful of MP playable discard spells. Single target discard is very bad.
Green is better than black in this format. It might even be better than blue. I thought people knew that.
U>B>G>W>R might generally hold true but not in EDH.
Single target discard is very good. Common misconception. If your deck can't keep a grip of cards it has problems. Once you know your deck is good and will not ever hit top deck mode cards like thoughtseize are a 1 mana investment in taking the best card out of the players hand you are scared of most and you get to see their entire hand ... For 1. Intact I fund the better(faster) your deck / meta game the better these effects. Some decks that are slower and in blue would prefer counter magic but if your not in blue I would always run these effects.
Show me a degenerate deck without U or B. Show me that broken naya shard deck please. This format is U/B dominated green needs Blue or Black to reach its potential in this format
My point is that he is attempting to appear logical, and knowledgable, about the subject. However, it is clear that he has just had a bunch of bad experiences, and is now attempting to dictate how the game should be built, from design on up to play.
I never said anything about being non-objective being "wrong". What I do find fault in the OP's statements is the logical fallacies he presented in order to APPEAR objective. The dishonesty inherent in the statement bothers me.
How would I fix the power level? I wouldn't. Do I think the colors are balanced? No, I don't. You're right, "in a vacuum" blue is the best. It's no secret a significant chunk of the power-9 are blue, and there have been some really bonkers cards printed in blue. However in, easily, over 20,000 games of EDH I haven't ever experienced a "vacuum". Player ability, politics, threat assessment, deck-building skill, wallet-size, card availability, previous grudges, runaway leader, and "that-guy-at-the-table", all contribute the events of an EDH game. There is nothing vacuous about a game of EDH.
My core issue with the OP is that his post is whiny. I quote "These are my favorite 3 colors in magic. Why? They are fair. You can't find anything in these three colors that are obscenely stupid, infuriating, or broken." (Talking about Naya)
Actually, HE can't find those things. Probably because he has a point to make, and isn't capable of that kind of objective observing. I can find any number of cards in those colors that are infuriating and broken. "Obscenely stupid?" Excuse me? That's not even a relevant adjective. If we are talking about the definition of stupid, well I just found Craw Wurm and Grizzly Bears. Those are pretty dumb creatures. If we are talking about what HE finds stupid, well then we aren't in interesting discussion or constructive design philosphy territory anymore, we are back to the OP just whining about something HE thinks is unfair that happened to him.
Back to the Naya colors discussion point, the most winning-est deck in my meta? Mayael. My buddy has a Mayael deck that is bonkers. It does a lot of really "unfair" and "broken
" things. But I find no reason to get online and say that those three colors are unfair, and that they can do anything and everything, and that all colors should have access to their side of the color pie.
Gosh, blue really needs a way to destroy enchantments, artifacts, and exile creatures. White, Green and Red, are just so unfair! They can literally do anything!
Like Galspanic said, it's not the cards, or the game, it's the players. It's us. It's the OP. The only people any of us have to blame for a bad experience playing this game, is ourselves and the people we play with. There was just another topic recently about someone complaining about a turn 5 win, but the complainer didn't pack an answer! That's not the cards fault for being able to combo out, or even the player who assembled the combo (There are many, many, many people who enjoy combo. Who are WE to dictate what is or isn't fun for other people?), is the fault of the person who refuses to play answers and then whines that something unfair happened to them.
Some argue that Blue should never have had card draw as part of its color pie identity because it is a necessary function of the game. Well by that rubric, green should never be able to ramp, because putting one land into play a turn is a necessary limiting function of the game. The game of Magic is a set of fairly simple rules. The cards are created to purposefully let us break those rules in an interesting way. Blue gets to break the card draw rule (techinically so does Black and Green). Green gets to break the 1 land a turn rule. That is the beauty of the game and the color pie and the inherent inequality in the colors.
Sorry, that went on quite a bit longer than I intended. I hope that answers your question?
The Commandments of EDH
My stance has been that land ramp should have never been a "flavorful mechanic" of green. It's an invaluable game mechanic for all games, and any experienced player knows that getting more land expands your options. Few card games put any sort of check and balance against putting out lots of resources.
Do you agree with this view as well?
I do have a couple of things to add, though. My playgroup and I discuss this idea rather frequently.
My LGS once did a small event where everybody played a mono color general. Pretty good turnout, so there was lots of representation across all colors. Sure, blue was probably the heaviest played (including myself). Know who won? A Linvala deck that was, to this day, the standard against which I measure my ability to build mono W decks. You know what it beat? My mono U, very well-tuned Azami deck, 2 Azusa decks, and a Chainer deck (plus a slew of other things).
All colors don't do everything equally, and they never, ever should. Blue draws cards, green ramps, white and black have powerful removal. Black gets good spot removal, decent mass removal, and gets to compliment the removal with card draw for life payments. White gets the best mass removal in the game, the ability to exile things, as well as the ability to remove enchantments/artifacts. You don't see blue players trying to build decks that are built around destroying everything on the board, nor should a mono white deck be built around trying to draw lots of cards. Blue goes into deck construction knowing that anything that hits the table is going to be problematic, while white constructs its decks around being able to answer the things that are on the battlefield. These are two very different deck building ideas, and they each have their inherent strengths and weaknesses.
White's card advantage comes not from its ability to draw cards, but from its ability to do multiple things with a single card. Blue can one-for-one counterspell some things using one card for every counter, but white can Wrath everything away using a single card. Both are forms of card advantage; they just function differently and are more or less useful depending on the given situation.
Suggesting that all colors should be good at everything that every other color is good at is approximately the same as saying everything should just be colorless so nothing has color identity. The strengths and weaknesses of a color determine how they are played as well as the flavor each has. Homogenizing them utterly defeats any need for different colors and destroys a critical part of the way Magic works.
Long story short, and in complete agreement with several others above me, I think the OP should rethink the idea that the whole game needs to be rebalanced. It does not. A good mono W deck is perfectly capable of winning games against any other deck (regardless of the colors of that deck) so long as the deck's creator is willing to look at what the color is good at and build to those strengths rather that trying to build a blue deck with white cards.
1. I'm looking at this objectively. Yes, I probably have some bias because my favorite color is green, but that's why we have discussions. That's why I list examples. Everyone has a little bias. If you compare cards like Mana Drain, and Necropotence to ANY card in the naya shard. Tell me a card that is on the same power level as those cards. Kiki-Jiki? He is strictly a win condition and requires another card to go off. Once he dies you are screwed. He generates no card advantage. He is all in. I can't think of another card in red more powerful thank Kiki, and he's hardly broken, in fact hes far from it. You have two windows to stop him (Him and the combo). Sylvan Primordial is nuts but it can be dealt with on the stack, which is what blue is great for, but thats also its downfall. You spend X amount of turns ramping into this guy or finding a way to cheat him in early then he gets countered? Oooops thats some serious tempo loss. I can't even think of anything white has that is close to that power level. White is pretty much the color of "I play fair," which in this format isn't very good.
2. Just to clarify to everyone, I have no problem with mana drain. I think its just a good example of another really powerful card that blue has access to.
3. Actually, a lot of these things did not happen to me directly. They happened to other people I know. I am speaking on other peoples behalf, and my own for that matter.
1. Congratulations. You successfully destroyed the straw man.
2. As someone who piloted mayael for 2-3 years, if SHE is the most winning-est thing in your meta, then your meta is probably a lot more casual than you think. Which is perfectly okay. This is probably why you think I am being a whiner. I am talking about 100% optimization of all decks. As in here's 3000 dollars, build a Mayael deck. Mayael 100% optimized can't handle Azami or Zur optimized. It just can't. It doesn't have access to the same power level of cards. Sometimes the only way to win with that deck was to pit people against each other while you go, "don't mind me look at the zur player... oh and Lurking Predators trigger..."
3. The notion that we are the problem is completely ludicrous. Lets say I'm playing Video Game X. Video Game X has one weapon that lets the wielder do pretty much whatever they want and kill whoever they want unless they get unlucky. Every single player has access to this weapon, so eventually, everyone packs this weapon in their arsenal so they don't die to other people wielding said weapon. Sounds like a design issue to me.
Other arguments from other people:
1. Nerfing blue isn't an option at this point. That would require banning a bunch of cards.
2. White already has card draw in its color pie. Just not a whole lot of it. If the card draw is mostly enchantment based especially then its DEFINATLEY in the color pie.
These have nothing to do with game design. EDH is a social format, yes, that's why I like it. But still, when you are designing a game you need to look at it as if it is going to be completely balanced without the implementation of house rules. The rules I put up were more rules for printing cards. As I recall. It was like 2:30 AM so I don't exactly remember? But yeah.
Edit:
It should be noted I am not proposing any radical changes here. Everything I proposed is within the color pie. In fact, wizards is already doing a tiny bit of what I've said, they just need to do a whole lot more of it, and stop printing crazy good blue cards. Yeah that 5 drop white enchantment is really good, but that's the point. It would be the "Oh that's that new awesome white draw engine woah that's nuts." Even though on the surface, if you compare that to something blue would get, that card is relatively pretty fair. Its not like they would make a billion of these. Its still a singleton format. And I'd suggest not picking apart my attempt at specific card designs, I'm not a professional card designer. I just wanted to illustrate my point.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
I saw a Naya deck take over the game on turn 3 by a Wildfire with 2 mana rocks in play. Even if they had Force of Will or Blue Elemental Blast. They couldn't have stopped their next spell which was Life from the Loam to recur their Wasteland/Strip Mind, and fetches.
That's not a true for the notion that NAya can't handle Zur or Azami. I can make a broken Naya that wrecks blue, it's easy. It just takes a lot of testing and research.
I will post an example later of cards to ruin blue in Naya.
In Naya you get access to all the White LD spells, Red LD Spells, Green ramp spells, and artifact and enchant removal. Sneak Attack, Survival, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Pattern of Rebirth, Tooth and Nail, Crop Rotation into Gaea's Cradle or Boseiju.
You have outs against blue, but you have to warp the entire deck around it.
Plus you could run a Aether Vial package and tutors for it ensure your spells aren't countered.
Every deck has access to Cavern of Souls which also stops blue, and name Human or Elf or whatever big bomb you want to drop on them.
Every deck can run Smokestack, so that's an option against blue. Just go artifact ramp/Wildfire/Jokulhaups/Aggro-Stax Naya instead of tradition Lamp Ramp Naya.
If you feel blue players have it too easy, then start playing mean with non-blue decks. We all know blue has too easy, but deal with it, how did I deal with in when I was playing R/B Goblin in Legacy against 75% of the meta being U/x Tempo/Control or U/B Combo. I was still able to crush Faeries and Countertop with my Vial Goblin deck before Cavern of Souls came out.
Simple solution; play smarter and more aggressive against blue. We can help with that if that's your first solution to this issue.
Edit: Trying to play Battlefield IV and type on here is not easy.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
So I have to play a specific strategy of denial in order to stop blue? I have access to 3 colors. Out of those 3 colors, we can come up with one strategy that, if we can hopefully get online, will shut down blue. Seems dry to me. I'd rather them enchance other strategies in the game to cripple the OP ones, as banning the cards that make the OP ones good wont fix the problem (the list is too long). Blue decks usually run quite a few mana rocks as well in the upper tiers, so I'm not sure the LD route necessarily helps too much anyways. Not to mention we are still talking about a multiplayer format, and if you do get a strip mine lock on the board, the players that you aren't locking down are likely to come after you after they put the blue player down, because you are big threat #2.
How do we beat every deck that has blue in it without having blue?
"I guess you play a weird stax LD thing and make everyone hate you more than the blue player."
...Or... wizards could address that they have a problem in one of their formats and fix it.
You can easily win a few games here and there vs blue. Consistency is the issue with most decks that don't have blue. Blue and black are super consistent, and therefore the best colors in the format for doing what this format likes to do best... combo off.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Then you aren't objective. Quit lying to yourself and attempting to present a case objectively. It's dishonest.
Mana Drain isn't a win condition. Neither is Necropotence. They both require another card to "go off". You're losing ground here. Unless I'm wrong here... tell me how I'm gonna win with Mana Drain by itself? How am I gonna win with Necropotence by itself?
You have two windows to get rid of Necropotence. You have two windows to get rid of whatever your opponent ramped out with that Mana Drain.
Well if you're cheating him into play you're likely using an activated ability or a triggered ability. Which I'm pretty sure there are only 12 cards in all of magic that can stop that. (many of which, by the way, are in green)
Terminus, Wrath of God, Final Judgment, and friends all disagree with you. To use your example. I ramp out and get a bunch of fatties into play, or I cheat a bunch of fatties into play, and then you wrath, tuck, or exile all my stuff? That's some serious tempo loss and an INSANE amount of card advantage for you. In this format wraths aren't very good? Time to pack it in guys! We have all been playing EDH wrong for a number of years. Mass removal sucks. We have all been really dumb.
I never claimed my meta is competitive. I think that casual vs competitive argument is asinine. However, since that seems to lend weight to this argument, in your opinion, my meta does include a Zur, Sharuum, Azami, Azusa, etc., on and on. For the record my Tariel STAX deck, has never lost to a deck that has blue in it. Maybe my Tariel deck is more tuned that the U/x decks I have played against? But that's not likely. Tariel isn't hated either. I get requests to play it all the time because it is FUN. Blue just can't handle STAX very well. And finally, my Tariel deck isn't even tuned to shut down blue. It just does it incidentally by doing what it already does.
1) I didn't ask for your approval. 2) Your tone, the way you describe cards you don't like as "obscenely stupid", your reply about being objective, your willful ignorance of the color pie, the fact you made this post, and your attitude are what make me think you're being a whiner.
There's no such thing.
1) If you're dropping 3 grand on a single deck, I would think you would understand the game of Magic at least a little more than you're proving evident. 2) If you're dropping 3 grand on a single deck, you're far, far in the minority of Magic players, and your experiences are not respective of the greater Magic population and as such your opinion on what is or isn't "fair" simply isn't viable from a design standpoint.
Again, nothing is 100% optimized, and I would beg to differ regardless.
Card power level is not the only variable. I can beat my girlfriend using only commons, while she runs rares. Why? Player experience. In a multiplayer game the advantage powerful cards give a player is mitigated more and more by how many players are at the table. That is further mitigated by the respective skill of each player.
Welcome to multiplayer games. And you know what? If an azami deck is beating a table 3v1, those are some terrible players. Play one game against Zur, Azami, Azusa, Mayael, Sharuum, etc. and you know what they do. If your meta lets that happen that's your problem.
No it isn't. Magic is a social game. If it wasn't you, or me, or Galspanic that is the problem, why don't I share your views? Why do so many people in this thread disagree with you, or disagree with me for that matter. We are simply not in a vacuum, there are no absolutes.
Speaking of absolutes... *sigh*
Not everyone has access to Mana Drain (not that, that card is an instant win anyway). Aaaaaand. There is only one Mana Drain. Wizards doesn't print that anymore. You know what they did do? They printed a similar card in Blue AND Green, but hey I don't see you complaining about that.
That's because it isn't the best at card draw. You know it is awesome at? Killing stuff. Where blue lacks severely. As another poster commented, White gets card advantage in other ways. Embrace that each color is unique, they do different things, appeal to different kinds of people and players. homogeneity is NOT a good solution.
You don't understand the color pie. Just because something is an enchantment doesn't make it white's domain in the color pie. Mana Reflection, Necropotence, Sneak Attack all say hi.
Never going to happen. Not possible. Even the Euro board games that are designed from the ground up to be exercises in equivilancy and "balanced" aren't completely balanced. And they don't have the kind of interactivity and growth that Magic does. Honestly, man, it just sounds like Magic isn't the game for you. You don't seem to like or appreciate the things that are so beautiful about Magic and its design. Of course that could just be you not appreciating the things that I find compelling, so this is more of a simple observation rather than a submittal for argument.
Not very good rules.
Exactly. There are people who do this way better than you, who rely on the color pie, and the way it dictactes the creation of cards, for their livelihood. They do a very good job of it too. If you think you can do better, next time they do a Great Designer Search, apply and see how far your intrepretation of balance, the color pie, and how you want to redefine it, get you.
The Commandments of EDH
Guess what?
Now there's a greater diversity of decks. Magic!
You can essential play Red-Workshop in EDH, but make it Naya.
Artifact base of course, LD package, but dudes that attack, Equipment and targeted LD.
If you don't like my solution which works, then why are you replying to me?
I've tested it many times in my non-blue decks and it wins most the time. Landing a well timed Boom/Bust with Smokestack in play or 6+ power with equipment or a full hand/Crucible is what you want.
You need to assess your situation and alienate those who aren't in the anti-blue plan.
Who cares if they aren't left behind, do you play EDH for random scrubs to enjoy their time. I sure don't, I'll be nice to Galspanic, Phil, Kraus911, Robtheman, and other people we know, but not some random noob who complains about LD.
If you haven't notice what wins in upper tier decks all have the same strategy. It's easy, simple as this mana development, mana denial, card draw, removal.
Win conditions can come in later, if your opponents can't cast spells, how do they win?
If you Trading Post goat token with Sword of Feast and Famine on it, that's a clock. The best way to beat blue is to out resource it, blue wins by incremental card advantage.
Edit: You know how many games I lost with my Intet and Azusa deck against blue? All of 5 out 20 games. You know why I was winning those games? Land destruction and main targeting the blue player. Weird right? It's like my ideas are correct in my meta.
Example #1: I won a 5 player game on turn 4 with my Azusa deck with turn 3 Sundering Titan, copied it with Scultping Steel, then sacrificed it Miren, the Moaning Well to negate the life loss from Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault.
Example #2: I won a 4 player game on turn ~5/6 off a Tooth and Nail into Emrakul and misc fatty with Anger in my graveyard. I had previously cast Intuition making auto-lose pile for the blue players. They were tapped out, so they only had Force of Will/Pact of Negation, and if they Force'd it, sure. I still had my general which I cast on turn 4. If they has cast Pact of Negation, I had Boom/Bust to make them lose at their upkeep. They know that since they previously V. Clique'd to see my plan.
The reason why my non-blue decks work is because I am a blue/black player at heart. My Intet deck ran 10 counter, 2 Stifle effects vs infinite combo, 8 spot removal, V. Clique, Thadda Adel vs Artifacts, 7 mana rocks, 5 ramp spells, infinite combos, mass LD, Windfall/Wheel of Fortune to mess up people's perfectly sculpted hands through cheating by mulling like ten times.
I build all my decks intended to play like a blue deck.
Do you want to see how my mono-black or mono-red deck would look like? Take a guess, I'm pretty sure you know the answer already.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
RBW control can do it pretty well.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
By the way, I don't have 3000 dollars to spend on cards. I could barely afford buying two of the commander decks. I was using an example to illustrate card pool. Blue has an access to way more strategies than the other colors do, and can do it better than a lot of other colors.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Dan has a point. I made those decks to exploit people who don't run spot removal. Now that they are banned, those decks if I were to recreate them would less powerful, but still consistent.
Any B/x control can win against blue very easily with access to mass discard like Mind Twist, Rakdos's Return, Mind Slash (Stax/Nath mostly), Mindslicer, Sire of Insanity.
Do you think I have $3000 USD to spend on cards?
You know much money I have to spend on cards this year? None, I haven't gotten any of those 2013 Commander pre-cons because I feel like they are a waste of money.
If I wanted money cards, go to LGS and trade in your junk rares for Mana Crypt, and the rest of your EDH deck.
Who's going to trade for your 20x Warp Worlds' anyways?
Blue does have it easier, I believe we can all agree on that. I feel like your missing the point entirely tough, black is just as good. You seem to agree with that as well since it's ranked #2, but I feel like Green is better than black in most metas; competitive or casual. This statement is coming from a hardcore Black Control player, so that might actually mean something to you.
@Dan: Replace Sundering Titan with Sylvan Primordial to make it fair, and Sculpting Steel with Natural Order into Eternal Witness to recur my Sylvan Primordial.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
I feel your pain. It ended up I shouldn't have bought the deck because I got behind on bills... but hey. I missed out last time the commander products came out I wasn't missing out this time!
Yes B/x can stop blue... but like you said black can be as bad as blue sometimes. Naya shard is what gets the shaft here. I feel like green is as good as black in a lot of metas because it tailors to the casual-social sort of play style that a lot of players like. "I play my fatty, pass turn, spend the next 15 minutes talking to my buds. If someone tries to touch it, tap me on the shoulder I might have a response!" With blue and black you have to pay a lot more attention to whats going on. Every spell could be something you want to interact with.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
After all these post, I think the conclusion comes down to this...
"Your meta determines whether certain colours are better than the others, and your playgroup also creates a rift in what is considered good/bad. If all archetypes are represented, any deck can function well regardless if the general has U in it's casting cost. The players ultimately determine the caliber of the deck's performance and quality."
I actually stopped buying EDH-only material after my friends and I pooled in on a 2011 Commander product. It was garbage to me, bad investment on my part, but hey what's $35 anyways? At the time, it was less than the total amount I receive in tips in 2 days of working part time at a Sushi Bar. In the end, not a big loss, but next I see new product for magic, specially EDH. For next time, just think about the money investment on Wizard's EDH product, and determine the right line of play.
It comes down to it, if you want something for your EDH decks - buy it, it saves time and effort.
I've learned to start using less jank cards, and actually good cards now. I use to play Salvaging Station package, but too slow for me. I don't want to to all-in on mana denial, I want to win my games before turn 30 if all possible. For those people still using Salvaging Station package; have fun clogging up your deck slots with janky cantrip'n artifacts instead of real spells.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
No. That's exactly what I said shouldn't be a factor when assessing the game/card pool. Local meta does not factor in. The larger optimized meta is what needs to be tested and worked with. I'm looking strictly at the card pool and the power levels of decks. Blue is OP. If I was looking at my local meta, then I probably wouldn't be saying this.
I pretty much trade for everything. Thats why I got the decks. Mostly for trade fodder... that and I already had a Marath deck constructed and I needed the actual card itself. So why not get full value and grab the whole deck? Got both of mine at target for 30. (got the bant one too)
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
You're right, this format doesn't work when looking at it from that perspective. The whole reason it works is because of local metas solving their own problems and adapting.
However, I can't see any situation where that would be the case, barring non-1v1 EDH tournaments (which are a complete joke anyway).
Tutors like
- Birthing Pod
- Brutalizer Exarch
(which also tucks problematic permanents)There's also Green's vast array of creatures, EtB effects and others that can handle problems, and its massive amount of mana generation...
I guess they need to give green even more tools, as it's not the color Blue.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
... Uh. I didn't say green needed much help. I said It just needed some more big guys that can fight stuff, along with some strong anti-blue cards. It needs answers to creatures within its fight mechanic that are playable. Its ability to answer things is very limited right now. Most of the focus was on white and red if you'd re-read. They need the most help. Poor guys.
Current
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
GWUPheldagriff Group HugGWU
RGRRuric Thar, the UnbowedGRG
UXBOona ControlUXB
Retired
RGWMayael, the AnimaRGW
XGXGlissa Sunseeker ComboXGX
Price of Glory is one such card that only hinders players who like to cast spells during opponents' turns.
If you notice, the only reason which U and B are top for most of the time is due to the unwillingness of a rather big group of EDH community to embrace a particular control strategy which the other three colors (WRG) share, resource control (Land destruction). I find that this alone makes the results heavily skewed in favor to blue and black as they are the only 2 colors left with intact resource control (spell control aka countermagic and card control aka discard)
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
If you want to play mono colored decks, I think black is better that blue because some black generals are pretty powerful on their own and make good use of the ramp and the tutors (Iname, Skittles)
GBW NO Elves / Aggro Elves
GBWU Combo Elves
EDH Decks:
Duel Commander:
GG Thrun, the last Trolololol GG
GW The Captain WG
GWB Karadores BWG
GWU Jenara UWG
UWB Oloro-DD BWU
Regular EDH:
GBW Ghave the Enchanter WBG
No, I do not agree with that view. Land ramp with no card draw doesn't necessarily expand your game options. Card draw, even in card games with no resource management, is still very valuable. Extra cards in your hand at any given resource level is way more versatile than a fixed number of cards in your hand with extra resources. Player 1 can ramp very fast, but if player 2 can draw through their deck to find an answer to what Player 1 was going to do with all that mana, player 2 seems to have been more "efficient." Craziness ensues when a player ramps AND draws/tutors to the card(s) needed to win/explode. Ramp by itself doesn't feel too broken.
If I could only choose between "resource acceleration" or "card draw" in the design of a card game, I'd choose card draw every time.
Green is better than black in this format. It might even be better than blue. I thought people knew that.
U>B>G>W>R might generally hold true but not in EDH.
Single target discard is very good. Common misconception. If your deck can't keep a grip of cards it has problems. Once you know your deck is good and will not ever hit top deck mode cards like thoughtseize are a 1 mana investment in taking the best card out of the players hand you are scared of most and you get to see their entire hand ... For 1. Intact I fund the better(faster) your deck / meta game the better these effects. Some decks that are slower and in blue would prefer counter magic but if your not in blue I would always run these effects.
Show me a degenerate deck without U or B. Show me that broken naya shard deck please. This format is U/B dominated green needs Blue or Black to reach its potential in this format
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429