Can you beat TNN easily by playing combo? Sure. Can you deal with TNN by using edict effects like Liliana or mass removal effects like Toxic Deluge? Sure.
The problem is that those are the ONLY two ways to deal with TNN. You are now forced to play TNN, play a combo deck, or load up on edict / mass removal effects. There is no room for any other kind of diversity in Legacy anymore.
You like playing Goblins and doing well with it in touranments? Oops, your deck was just made obsolete by a single terribly designed creature that can stonewall your Goblins and attack unabated with Jitte.
You like playing Lands and doing well with it in tournaments? Oops, your deck was just made obsolete because it has no ways to target a 3 damage per turn clock.
You like playing Dragon Stompy? Oops, your deck was just made obsolete because you have no way to stop TNN from getting past your guys and racing you with equipment.
TNN is one of those cards that just doesn't add anything positive to the format. It only subtracts. It removes card choices and it removes deck choices. It's the worst kind of card.
I think True-Name Nemesis's popularity may make Goblins's share of the meta shrink, but not for the reason you mentioned. Goblins is actually one of the better fair decks against Nemesis--it can viably swarm around it (as long as the opponent doesn't have disruption-heavy draws), and Goblin Piledriver doesn't give a darn about Nemeses that try but fail to block. Goblins may lose ground in the Legacy meta because Nemesis will increase the popularity of board wipes, and board wipes hit Goblins fairly hard (at least compared to spot removal).
KaristaDispel mentioned Engineered Explosives as one of Lands's solutions to hexproof/protection from you stuff, and Oblivion Stone is another, more rarely played solution. Stalling out even multiple Nemeses with a Glacial Chasm + Zuran Orb + LftL lock is a third option. (Reducing Nemesis decks to no mana and sticking a Tabernacle is a slightly Magical Christmas Land fourth solution.) Recent Lands lists have also practically made the ThesDepths combo a staple, and the 20/20 flying Marit Lage is easily capable of outracing a Nemesis (and all the white-splashing Nemesis decks don't quite like taking 7 more turns to kill with a Nemesis post-Swords to Plowshares (or 3 more turns for Jitte-equipped Nemeses)).
I think Dragon Stompy actually has the best chance against Nemesis of the 3 decks because a lot of its draws can outright stop Nemesis decks from resolving a Nemesis in the first place (unlike the other two, which lean on mana denial-heavy hands to do so). It definitely has problems against any resolved creature, but at least flipped Instigator Gangs have Trample (and Werewolf Human Stompy is probably the most popular Dragon Stompy variant right now)...
I don't know who has been piloting these easily defeated TNN decks for you guys, but down at the SCG matters have not been so simple.
Napoleonic WUR was a hard deck to beat before TNN was printed, and it is now an order of magnitude harder. It has advanced enough to warrant large-scale metagame shifts. Pox was very rarely played until quite recently: it has suddenly become viable due to nothing more than having a decent matchup with combo and a very reasonable one against the WUR TNN decks.
Enchantress is a very rarely encountered deck. I'm glad to see its stock go up, but I'm unconvinced that it has a very solid matchup here. More than 60/40 would shock me. Lands is also not represented a lot, and while I love to see it in action, it suffers from the dual problems of going to time a lot as well as being a dog to combo. Combo, a viable answer to TNN, will be on the rise in very short order.
The format is changing rapidly, and I'm not happy about it. I might not even like the format that results, though I plan to tough it out. TNN is less popular, and less interactive, than SnT. My only hope is that it becomes so dominant, so quickly, that people freak out and it gets banned. I don't know how long my sanity can withstand being subjected to this TNN nonsense.
Lands is also not represented a lot, and while I love to see it in action, it suffers from the dual problems of going to time a lot as well as being a dog to combo. Combo, a viable answer to TNN, will be on the rise in very short order.
Is combo really that viable vs fair blue decks? TNN decks should be packing plenty of answers I think. If combo is soft to TNN decks than prison decks like Lands should have a field day. This will open a window for combo, which in turn will keep blue fair decks usefull.
The format is changing rapidly, and I'm not happy about it.
It is indeed, and I'm excited to see where it goes. The potential for prison to return is just fantastic! We could also see fast aggro decks on the rise like Burn (and maybe even Sly or Zombardment). With (potentially) fewer hate bears but more counterspells (blue fair decks > non-blue fair decks), the style of combo might change - less Show & Tell and more Storm and maybe Dredge.
It really had to say where the meta will settle. To me that makes it a very exciting time for playing.. If the meta is imbalanced when all is said and done something will probably be banned or unbanned. If the meta is well balanced it will be great like Legacy always is.
There should be nothing to worry about, unless maybe you have a pet deck that's going to take a hit. That's always a drag, but it's happened to decks in the past and it will happen to decks in the future. It comes with the territory.
Is combo really that viable vs fair blue decks? TNN decks should be packing plenty of answers I think. If combo is soft to TNN decks than prison decks like Lands should have a field day. This will open a window for combo, which in turn will keep blue fair.
I'm somewhat happy about True Name Nemesis because it has increased the amount of "fair creature decks"v which makes my Lands deck matchups better. I have favorable creature deck matchups in general. So TNN fair blue is forcing some adaptation which is good.
I'm still pretty stunned by this reaction the game is having. Tempo decks already existed; Mom already did everything TNN does.
All Fair Blue does is help the format IMO, and yet every non-sulfur non-dread answer to Mom is still good to TNN (unless you relied on Instant speed, you silly goose!)
I'll fight tempo all day; much easier to do than combo IMO.
Honestly, my main issue with TNN isn't it's power level, It's a fair card. My only problem with it is It seems like it shouldve been UW instead of mono U.
I thought TNN should have been R. I agree the big problem with it is that it's blue.
I'm still pretty stunned by this reaction the game is having. Tempo decks already existed; Mom already did everything TNN does.
All Fair Blue does is help the format IMO, and yet every non-sulfur non-dread answer to Mom is still good to TNN (unless you relied on Instant speed, you silly goose!)
I'll fight tempo all day; much easier to do than combo IMO.
I have previously mentioned that Umezawa's Jitte (preferably on an evasive guy) answers Mom but not True-Name Nemesis. Nemesis's resilience against Jitte (and Sword of Fire and Ice, the current premier third equipment because it outraces Nemesis but still can't kill it) is probably what makes it more format-warping than Mom (well, along with being good on its own instead of being merely a 1/1 awesome wall--note that Mom decks tend to play a lot of creatures, while that UWR Delver Nemesis list runs only 10--this ensures arguably poorer sideboarding against Nemesis decks when inefficient board wipes are one of the best answers to a Nemesis).
Has anybody found a way to deal with a resolved TNN in R? So far the only red means of not losing to it (that I've found) is a preventative blood moon. I'm looking for something morning-after, if you see where I'm going
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Red has few answers to many resolved things in Legacy (like Enchantments) that's just the price you pay for picking the neglected color. I love Red, but unless you're splashing you have to live with having few answers.
Has anybody found a way to deal with a resolved TNN in R? So far the only red means of not losing to it (that I've found) is a preventative blood moon. I'm looking for something morning-after, if you see where I'm going
Meekstone is serviceable if you're Goblins or Burn. Skullcrack can do the trick too if you can get them to block one of your creatures with Nemesis but comes with the risk of being blown out by a removal spell.
Has anybody found a way to deal with a resolved TNN in R? So far the only red means of not losing to it (that I've found) is a preventative blood moon. I'm looking for something morning-after, if you see where I'm going
Has anybody found a way to deal with a resolved TNN in R? So far the only red means of not losing to it (that I've found) is a preventative blood moon. I'm looking for something morning-after, if you see where I'm going
In mono red? If you're playing Burn or Goblins, just ignore it and finish them off. If you ae playing Painter, don't let it resolve (if it does just combo out).
Does that work? TNN reads "can't be dealt damage", not "prevent all damage". I'm not a judge or anything, but I think the two are different things.
This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
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This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
I think that the thought was that you attack, they block with TNN, and you cast Skullcrack in response to the block. People are theorizing that TNN would then die from combat damage, but I need a judge to confirm this.
Does that work? TNN reads "can't be dealt damage", not "prevent all damage". I'm not a judge or anything, but I think the two are different things.
It works. The reminder text is not identical to the rules text for protection. The official rules for protections say "702.16e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented."
This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
I believe that TNN cannot actually be blocked, as that is part of its protection ability, though if you swing in and they block with TNN then you can use Skullcrack so that your creature will trade with it.
It works. The reminder text is not identical to the rules text for protection. The official rules for protections say "702.16e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented."
Thanks! I'm still not sure whether skullcrack is worth playing or not, but it's nice to know it works.
On another note, which decks seem to be playing TNN the most? The suspects I have are UWR, UW, and BUG, but since I only have one playtesting partner I don't get to see a lot of other decks.
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I think True-Name Nemesis's popularity may make Goblins's share of the meta shrink, but not for the reason you mentioned. Goblins is actually one of the better fair decks against Nemesis--it can viably swarm around it (as long as the opponent doesn't have disruption-heavy draws), and Goblin Piledriver doesn't give a darn about Nemeses that try but fail to block. Goblins may lose ground in the Legacy meta because Nemesis will increase the popularity of board wipes, and board wipes hit Goblins fairly hard (at least compared to spot removal).
KaristaDispel mentioned Engineered Explosives as one of Lands's solutions to hexproof/protection from you stuff, and Oblivion Stone is another, more rarely played solution. Stalling out even multiple Nemeses with a Glacial Chasm + Zuran Orb + LftL lock is a third option. (Reducing Nemesis decks to no mana and sticking a Tabernacle is a slightly Magical Christmas Land fourth solution.) Recent Lands lists have also practically made the ThesDepths combo a staple, and the 20/20 flying Marit Lage is easily capable of outracing a Nemesis (and all the white-splashing Nemesis decks don't quite like taking 7 more turns to kill with a Nemesis post-Swords to Plowshares (or 3 more turns for Jitte-equipped Nemeses)).
I think Dragon Stompy actually has the best chance against Nemesis of the 3 decks because a lot of its draws can outright stop Nemesis decks from resolving a Nemesis in the first place (unlike the other two, which lean on mana denial-heavy hands to do so). It definitely has problems against any resolved creature, but at least flipped Instigator Gangs have Trample (and Werewolf Human Stompy is probably the most popular Dragon Stompy variant right now)...
Napoleonic WUR was a hard deck to beat before TNN was printed, and it is now an order of magnitude harder. It has advanced enough to warrant large-scale metagame shifts. Pox was very rarely played until quite recently: it has suddenly become viable due to nothing more than having a decent matchup with combo and a very reasonable one against the WUR TNN decks.
Enchantress is a very rarely encountered deck. I'm glad to see its stock go up, but I'm unconvinced that it has a very solid matchup here. More than 60/40 would shock me. Lands is also not represented a lot, and while I love to see it in action, it suffers from the dual problems of going to time a lot as well as being a dog to combo. Combo, a viable answer to TNN, will be on the rise in very short order.
The format is changing rapidly, and I'm not happy about it. I might not even like the format that results, though I plan to tough it out. TNN is less popular, and less interactive, than SnT. My only hope is that it becomes so dominant, so quickly, that people freak out and it gets banned. I don't know how long my sanity can withstand being subjected to this TNN nonsense.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
The meta is still adjusting, give it time.
Is combo really that viable vs fair blue decks? TNN decks should be packing plenty of answers I think. If combo is soft to TNN decks than prison decks like Lands should have a field day. This will open a window for combo, which in turn will keep blue fair decks usefull.
It is indeed, and I'm excited to see where it goes. The potential for prison to return is just fantastic! We could also see fast aggro decks on the rise like Burn (and maybe even Sly or Zombardment). With (potentially) fewer hate bears but more counterspells (blue fair decks > non-blue fair decks), the style of combo might change - less Show & Tell and more Storm and maybe Dredge.
It really had to say where the meta will settle. To me that makes it a very exciting time for playing.. If the meta is imbalanced when all is said and done something will probably be banned or unbanned. If the meta is well balanced it will be great like Legacy always is.
There should be nothing to worry about, unless maybe you have a pet deck that's going to take a hit. That's always a drag, but it's happened to decks in the past and it will happen to decks in the future. It comes with the territory.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I'm somewhat happy about True Name Nemesis because it has increased the amount of "fair creature decks"v which makes my Lands deck matchups better. I have favorable creature deck matchups in general. So TNN fair blue is forcing some adaptation which is good.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
All Fair Blue does is help the format IMO, and yet every non-sulfur non-dread answer to Mom is still good to TNN (unless you relied on Instant speed, you silly goose!)
I'll fight tempo all day; much easier to do than combo IMO.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
I thought TNN should have been R. I agree the big problem with it is that it's blue.
I have previously mentioned that Umezawa's Jitte (preferably on an evasive guy) answers Mom but not True-Name Nemesis. Nemesis's resilience against Jitte (and Sword of Fire and Ice, the current premier third equipment because it outraces Nemesis but still can't kill it) is probably what makes it more format-warping than Mom (well, along with being good on its own instead of being merely a 1/1 awesome wall--note that Mom decks tend to play a lot of creatures, while that UWR Delver Nemesis list runs only 10--this ensures arguably poorer sideboarding against Nemesis decks when inefficient board wipes are one of the best answers to a Nemesis).
"Nice to meet you-"
"COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!"
"-hostages!"
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
Meekstone is serviceable if you're Goblins or Burn. Skullcrack can do the trick too if you can get them to block one of your creatures with Nemesis but comes with the risk of being blown out by a removal spell.
Skullcrack
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Currently Playing:
Retired
In mono red? If you're playing Burn or Goblins, just ignore it and finish them off. If you ae playing Painter, don't let it resolve (if it does just combo out).
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Hahahahaha
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Good luck blocking them
Does that work? TNN reads "can't be dealt damage", not "prevent all damage". I'm not a judge or anything, but I think the two are different things.
"Nice to meet you-"
"COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!"
"-hostages!"
This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
you can't block True-Name
I think that the thought was that you attack, they block with TNN, and you cast Skullcrack in response to the block. People are theorizing that TNN would then die from combat damage, but I need a judge to confirm this.
As Tormod mentioned, you can't block TNN.
It works. The reminder text is not identical to the rules text for protection. The official rules for protections say "702.16e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented."
I believe that TNN cannot actually be blocked, as that is part of its protection ability, though if you swing in and they block with TNN then you can use Skullcrack so that your creature will trade with it.
Red has plenty of cute cheesy ways to 2-for-1 themselves to kill it once Skullcrack is involved, because Protection uses damage prevention.
Thanks! I'm still not sure whether skullcrack is worth playing or not, but it's nice to know it works.
On another note, which decks seem to be playing TNN the most? The suspects I have are UWR, UW, and BUG, but since I only have one playtesting partner I don't get to see a lot of other decks.
"Nice to meet you-"
"COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!"
"-hostages!"