BUG does not run that much TNN. BUG Delver prefers Tombstalker, while BUG control (Shardless) never runs it.
The four big TNN decks are UWR Delver, Esper Stoneblade, Esper Deathblade, and Reid Duke's Bant.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
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All of those have very complex mana bases. Resolving an early blood moon (maybe in some stompy variant) looks like the way to go
Esper Stoneblade can easily beat a Blood Moon, since they should be fetching basics against Red anyway. The others will certainly have trouble though, since they all pack Wasteland.
Esper Stoneblade can easily beat a Blood Moon, since they should be fetching basics against Red anyway. The others will certainly have trouble though, since they all pack Wasteland.
This is true. Although "vanilla" Esperblade seems to have died off in popularity, I play it over Deathblade purely because the manabase is a lot more stable. I'm able to fetch basics for the first three turns without it slowing me down and I'm now protected from all the non-basic hate out there.
I'm actually still surprised such aggressive mana decks like Deathblade, Shardless BUG, etc. continue to do so well. I know people are now packing Blood Moon and Chalice, but apparently that hasn't been enough hate to keep these decks from doing well.
On a TNN-related front, I am packing two in my Esperblade deck. I think it's the right number since 4 means I run no Cliques in the MD and I think a 2/2 split is good.
I'm actually still surprised such aggressive mana decks like Deathblade, Shardless BUG, etc. continue to do so well. I know people are now packing Blood Moon and Chalice, but apparently that hasn't been enough hate to keep these decks from doing well.
It's the variance. Those multicolor decks are also Brainstorm-based blue decks, while the cards that punish the greedy manabases often face pretty tricky mulligan decisions, and just lose to themselves a non-trivial amount of the time. Not many players want to deal with that over the course of a long tournament.
I noticed the *****ing has stopped, does this mean that people are waking up from their hang-overs and figured out that this card isn't the harbinger of the death of Legacy?
After playing with TNN with and against for the last month, I can tell you its a real card but so many other cards printed in the last 3 years have had a bigger and longer lasting impact on Legacy.
I noticed the *****ing has stopped, does this mean that people are waking up from their hang-overs and figured out that this card isn't the harbinger of the death of Legacy?
After playing with TNN with and against for the last month, I can tell you its a real card but so many other cards printed in the last 3 years have had a bigger and longer lasting impact on Legacy.
Read Carsten Kotter's article on TNN, I think it really explains some of my gripes with TNN. I think the card is bad for legacy and will likely narrow the format quite bit since a lot of aggressive strategies just get stonewalled by it. However it probably won't get to MM levels of format warping so it probably won't get banned. I really don't know what the were thinking printing such a card in blue but it looks like now I'm building some flavor of UW Trueblade to take advantage of it.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
In a nutshell, someone else wrote something similar below:
Pro-Ban: TNN creates boring games, cookie-cutter decks
Anti-Ban: TNN is not broken, adopt or join the wagon
Do you know how people adopt to boring games and cookie-cutter decks? They quit Legacy and move to another format.
Or... they build new decks that are designed to play against the decks in the format. Like the Lands deck that just took first this past weekend.
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My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
In a nutshell, someone else wrote something similar below:
Pro-Ban: TNN creates boring games, cookie-cutter decks
Anti-Ban: TNN is not broken, adopt or join the wagon
Do you know how people adopt to boring games and cookie-cutter decks? They quit Legacy and move to another format.
"adapt"
lol---like Standard (aka MBD)?
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Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
I think I'm going to make some custom Zombie tokens that show players with outstretched arms clutching oversized copies of TNN, and play Dredge until this peace craze blows over.
I think I'm going to make some custom Zombie tokens that show players with outstretched arms clutching oversized copies of TNN, and play Dredge until this peace craze blows over.
I think I'm going to make some custom Zombie tokens that show players with outstretched arms clutching oversized copies of TNN, and play Dredge until this peace craze blows over.
I think I'm going to make some custom Zombie tokens that show players with outstretched arms clutching oversized copies of TNN, and play Dredge until this peace craze blows over.
Me too. Please post them here so I can use them in my dredge deck (:
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
In a nutshell, someone else wrote something similar below:
Pro-Ban: TNN creates boring games, cookie-cutter decks
Anti-Ban: TNN is not broken, adopt or join the wagon
Do you know how people adopt to boring games and cookie-cutter decks? They quit Legacy and move to another format...
...Prison deck like Lands or Jund Depths is not for everyone. Some people favor creature Beatdown strategy, it is no fault of their own TNN got printed. Now they either Join the TNN wagon to continue on their strategy, or abandon their strategy all together. Of course, quitting Legacy is becoming an option now.
Have you been following the SCG opens lately? Tempo Thresh ad Team America (both beatdown) are doing as well, if not better, than the TNN decks. There have actually been a lot of different decks in the top eight recently.
I don't mid people leaving the format (especially if they are unwilling to adapt, bent a single play style, and nonetheless feel entitled to a tier one deck). But if they leave Legacy because the games are boring and the decks seem "cookie-cut", they're going to be awfully sorry unless their new format is EDH!
Have you been following the SCG opens lately? Tempo Thresh ad Team America (both beatdown) are doing as well, if not better, than the TNN decks. There have actually been a lot of different decks in the top eight recently.
I don't mid people leaving the format (especially if they are unwilling to adapt, bent a single play style, and nonetheless feel entitled to a tier one deck). But if they leave Legacy because the games are boring and the decks seem "cookie-cut", they're going to be awfully sorry unless their new format is EDH!
TNN pushes non-Brainstorm decks out of Legacy because of splash damage, when the format already was 66% Brainstorm decks. You can't play a "fair" creature deck when everyone is boarding Massacres, Golgari Charms, and Zealous Persecutions to deal with TNN. Elves are really hurt by the splash damage, so are pretty much all Mother of Runes decks.
Elves are really hurt by the splash damage, so are pretty much all Mother of Runes decks.
Elves are holding their own - how good do they have to be? Mother decks have had their day in the sun, and it doesn't hurt Legacy if they take a turn in the shade. Other decks are seeing some light that haven't been good in a long time, and that's a fair trade. We still have lots of different decks and strategies placing, just not the same decks as this time last year.
RUG just never seems to be out of contention in the hands of great players. It can definitely beat anyone on any day. TNN is strong, but legacy is just so diverse, that not one new creature card can really affect it so much that it would dominate. I really like how the format is right now. Not one deck seems to dominate, and any deck can win it.
lands has actually always had a great RUG matchup. Entire nonbasic land base vs LFTL and wasteland is a winning combination.
Don't forget our Ports and the fact that they run all of eighteen lands! Tempo decks like that want to draw one or two creatures, two or three lands, and every other card an answer. They just don't have enough answers for Lands because counterspells don't work - most of the action comes from non-basic lands and/or graveyard recursion.
Yeah, I'd play happily against Canadian Thresh all day except that I much prefer diversity over (virtually) always winning.
Actually, Pox and Jund Depths would probably be fine with RUG too. I've never lost a Delver matchup (patriot or otherwise) with any pox variant I've run. The TNN influx reduces the bad matchups for these slower decks by:
-Being Blue (better against combo)
-Fine against Burn (bad for Pox, probably bad for lands(??), and similar)
-Torturing non-blue fair-decks that don't run TNN answers
-Answers which are completely dead to Pox&Friends
To beat these decks you generally need a solid aggro hand that can survive disruption and you need plenty of card advantage; both of which I imagine are rare for decks that support this creature. He's *just* a beater; making him even less utility than many of the other 3-cost beaters. KotR can be much scarier to these other decks simply because fetching Bog, Karakas, Maze, or a variety of other problem cards can give him the couple turns he needs to kill you. Clique can be a problem by shuffling the only Loam/Pox you have away; giving you some random garbage to solve the boardstate with. TNN just does Mirran Crusader's job in blue; which is great against the non-nic-fit G-based control decks; and terrible against the Prison decks.
That all said, I'd assume that Goblins would do better than they have in this meta; simply for Piledriver+Thalia.
The four big TNN decks are UWR Delver, Esper Stoneblade, Esper Deathblade, and Reid Duke's Bant.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
All of those have very complex mana bases. Resolving an early blood moon (maybe in some stompy variant) looks like the way to go
"Nice to meet you-"
"COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!"
"-hostages!"
Esper Stoneblade can easily beat a Blood Moon, since they should be fetching basics against Red anyway. The others will certainly have trouble though, since they all pack Wasteland.
This is true. Although "vanilla" Esperblade seems to have died off in popularity, I play it over Deathblade purely because the manabase is a lot more stable. I'm able to fetch basics for the first three turns without it slowing me down and I'm now protected from all the non-basic hate out there.
I'm actually still surprised such aggressive mana decks like Deathblade, Shardless BUG, etc. continue to do so well. I know people are now packing Blood Moon and Chalice, but apparently that hasn't been enough hate to keep these decks from doing well.
On a TNN-related front, I am packing two in my Esperblade deck. I think it's the right number since 4 means I run no Cliques in the MD and I think a 2/2 split is good.
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Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
It's the variance. Those multicolor decks are also Brainstorm-based blue decks, while the cards that punish the greedy manabases often face pretty tricky mulligan decisions, and just lose to themselves a non-trivial amount of the time. Not many players want to deal with that over the course of a long tournament.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
After playing with TNN with and against for the last month, I can tell you its a real card but so many other cards printed in the last 3 years have had a bigger and longer lasting impact on Legacy.
Stoneforge + Batterskull, Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Thalia....
It's just because of all the turkey.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Or... they build new decks that are designed to play against the decks in the format. Like the Lands deck that just took first this past weekend.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
"adapt"
lol---like Standard (aka MBD)?
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Does Dredge have a positive over TNN decks?
I, for one, would love to see those
Me too. Please post them here so I can use them in my dredge deck (:
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Have you been following the SCG opens lately? Tempo Thresh ad Team America (both beatdown) are doing as well, if not better, than the TNN decks. There have actually been a lot of different decks in the top eight recently.
I don't mid people leaving the format (especially if they are unwilling to adapt, bent a single play style, and nonetheless feel entitled to a tier one deck). But if they leave Legacy because the games are boring and the decks seem "cookie-cut", they're going to be awfully sorry unless their new format is EDH!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Manaless Dredge placed 31st in SCG Baltimore if that answers your question.
I'm currently testing a Trueblade-delver deck with stifles, i'll see how it plays out thursday night.
RUG
Enchantress
Can someone post the list? SCG's site only lists top 16.
TNN pushes non-Brainstorm decks out of Legacy because of splash damage, when the format already was 66% Brainstorm decks. You can't play a "fair" creature deck when everyone is boarding Massacres, Golgari Charms, and Zealous Persecutions to deal with TNN. Elves are really hurt by the splash damage, so are pretty much all Mother of Runes decks.
There were three non-brainstorm decks in the top eight last week. Half of the opens this year have been won by non-Brainstorm decks.
Brainstorm creature decks aren't fair?
Elves are holding their own - how good do they have to be? Mother decks have had their day in the sun, and it doesn't hurt Legacy if they take a turn in the shade. Other decks are seeing some light that haven't been good in a long time, and that's a fair trade. We still have lots of different decks and strategies placing, just not the same decks as this time last year.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
RUG just never seems to be out of contention in the hands of great players. It can definitely beat anyone on any day. TNN is strong, but legacy is just so diverse, that not one new creature card can really affect it so much that it would dominate. I really like how the format is right now. Not one deck seems to dominate, and any deck can win it.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
Don't forget our Ports and the fact that they run all of eighteen lands! Tempo decks like that want to draw one or two creatures, two or three lands, and every other card an answer. They just don't have enough answers for Lands because counterspells don't work - most of the action comes from non-basic lands and/or graveyard recursion.
Yeah, I'd play happily against Canadian Thresh all day except that I much prefer diversity over (virtually) always winning.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
-Being Blue (better against combo)
-Fine against Burn (bad for Pox, probably bad for lands(??), and similar)
-Torturing non-blue fair-decks that don't run TNN answers
-Answers which are completely dead to Pox&Friends
To beat these decks you generally need a solid aggro hand that can survive disruption and you need plenty of card advantage; both of which I imagine are rare for decks that support this creature. He's *just* a beater; making him even less utility than many of the other 3-cost beaters. KotR can be much scarier to these other decks simply because fetching Bog, Karakas, Maze, or a variety of other problem cards can give him the couple turns he needs to kill you. Clique can be a problem by shuffling the only Loam/Pox you have away; giving you some random garbage to solve the boardstate with. TNN just does Mirran Crusader's job in blue; which is great against the non-nic-fit G-based control decks; and terrible against the Prison decks.
That all said, I'd assume that Goblins would do better than they have in this meta; simply for Piledriver+Thalia.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look