In regards to Avacyn, I'm not sure that giving the zombies indestructible would do anything worth using her as a Dread Return target over something like Flame-Kin Zealot that straight-up wins you the game on that turn. Simic Sky Swallower and Inkwell Leviathan don't really do anything game-changing that would warrant their use over more traditional targets like Griselbrand, FKZ or Flayer. If you're reanimating an Inkwell Leviathan as a big beefy beater, you may as well just grab a Grave-Troll, who doesn't take up an extra spot in your deck.
Ogre Battledriver wouldn't, as far as I know, provide your Zombie tokens with haste, as it requires another creature to enter the battlefield. The Zombie tokens enter before the DR target does (cost occurs before effect) and by that point the ability wouldn't have an effect. If I'm wrong on this, please feel free to say so.
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Modern
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
In regard to Avacyn, I just thought the idea of an indestructible army of zombies along with the indestructible, flying 8/8 may be enough to get the job done. Edict effects won't work here... as you just let a Zombie go... and, basically, you can just grind them out at this point quite easily. A 8/8 flying indestructible only has a couple answers to it... white removal or bounce.
Also, what edict takes out the Simic Sky Swallower? If it's creature based, I'd let a token go before the Swallower. Now, the Inkwell Leviathan can be lost to an artifact based edict, I guess. Are these that prevalent though? I mean, I would assume it'd be a SB card... and then, what deck would you want it against? If it's an artifact based deck... odds are, they have at least a few artifacts out by the time you play it.
Again... not saying there's not better choices. After all, these are all "slower."
Also... what about Ogre Battledriver? Would it give the zombies the +2/0 and haste that come in with it? If so, could that replace FKZ?
Any other thoughts? Or basically, same consensus.
Avacyn isn't great since she can be removed with Swords to Plowshare.
Not everyone has edict effects, so yes you can win with Simic Sky Swallower or Inkwell Leviathan, but sometimes you can lose because they will race you with giant Tarmogoyfs or Batterskull lifegain. Griselbrand and Flayer represent more damage more quickly.
Ogre Battledriver is not as effective as Flame-Kin Zealot because the zombies already in play don't get the +2 bonus and the zombies resulting from the DR/bridges go into play before so also don't get the bonus nor the haste.
I am fascinated by his lack of putrid imp. I was looking at that option myself, but I didn't have time to finish the idea. He seems to have done it elegantly, though I would still prefer to just have the single Griselbrand in the main and throw in another thug or something. Not sure on the probes, but they do seem pretty awesome against combo.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
The MD is pretty stock except for the 3 MD DR targets. Personally I've never been a fan of Gris, but its hard to argue with results.
Probe is probably the thing I like least. I'd far rather the Street Wraiths. Yes, they don't peek, but they feed ichorid and I've never felt like I needed the peek (plus you can cycle it at instant speed - so cast LED, cast looting, response to looting cycle, response to cycle crack LED, potentially dredge 5 times turn 1).
Probe is actually really good in this deck. On its own, it's a 0 mana cantrip — which is nice — but it also peeks. This is incredibly powerful. Let me explain why. Say your hand has Gemstone Mine, Cabal Therapy, and Gitaxian Probe. You cast probe for 2 life and see two Deathrite Shamans. You can now play Therapy and strip their hand of those two shamans. Say you play it and you see a Nihil Spellbomb. Guess what card you're going to name with Therapy? The fact that it combos so well with therapy is what makes it so good. You can also use it to see if their graveyard hate consists of Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb — both of which play very differently. This is just one example of how the card comes in handy. Also, at its very worst, it's a 2 life cantrip and peek, which is never a bad thing.
Probe is actually really good in this deck. On its own, it's a 0 mana cantrip — which is nice — but it also peeks. This is incredibly powerful. Let me explain why. Say your hand has Gemstone Mine, Cabal Therapy, and Gitaxian Probe. You cast probe for 2 life and see two Deathrite Shamans. You can now play Therapy and strip their hand of those two shamans. Say you play it and you see a Nihil Spellbomb. Guess what card you're going to name with Therapy? The fact that it combos so well with therapy is what makes it so good. You can also use it to see if their graveyard hate consists of Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb — both of which play very differently. This is just one example of how the card comes in handy. Also, at its very worst, it's a 2 life cantrip and peek, which is never a bad thing.
What matchup would you bring in the Probes for, and what would you take out? From your description, it sounds like more of a mainboard card to me.
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Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
What matchup would you bring in the Probes for, and what would you take out? From your description, it sounds like more of a mainboard card to me.
It comes in for games 2 and 3 so you can see what graveyard hate they boarded in and play around it accordingly. It also has amazing synergy with Cabal Therapy. You bring it in against any 'fair deck'; that is, any deck that isn't combo. In particular, you want it against cards like Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt.
So I'm planning on putting together a dredge list.
My question is which cards should I acquire, I want to have a decent toolbox so that I can adjust my deck to the meta without having to go out and find more cards. What cards should I absolutely have access to for my sideboard so that I can adjust to almost any meta?
Also are there general rules for when you should run grudge, chains, or claim in your sideboard? Has anyone put together a theory on which decks/cards each one is optimal against, or is it just the preference and feelings of an individual player on what to run. They are all so close that it is really hard for me to theorycraft which one to run, or if i should run combinations of them.
Also is there any consensus on whether quadlazer or a more combo dependent list is better?
It is not absolutely necessary to play with LED in dredge. However, that's like saying it isn't absolutely necessary to play with lightning bolt in burn. You could just run shock, but you get hit by the same hate, you get hit just as hard, and you are slower. This is obviously not as extreme as LED vs Tribe, but you are trading off power and redundancy. If you can't afford LED's, then you can't. Just run the LEDless and learn to play the deck. Dredge isn't going anywhere, so eventually you can get those. Until then, learn everything you can about playing therapy correctly, as it is easily the most important card in the deck.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
I'm putting together a LED less dredge, and am looking to build a SB. I don't have a specific meta to build off, and was wondering if you all can help with a generic 15 that would be good to start with? So far I've picked up on this in almost everyone's sb: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and 4 Leyline of the void. Without specific matchups and targets, it's hard to build the other 9. Any help?
*edit* I'm running 4 putrid imp (until I get 4 LED) and 2 FotH (until I get 2 Griselbrand) in the main. The rest is standard Dredge in the main... At work or I'd post the entire decklist to see...
I'm putting together a LED less dredge, and am looking to build a SB. I don't have a specific meta to build off, and was wondering if you all can help with a generic 15 that would be good to start with? So far I've picked up on this in almost everyone's sb: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and 4 Leyline of the void. Without specific matchups and targets, it's hard to build the other 9. Any help?
*edit* I'm running 4 putrid imp (until I get 4 LED) and 2 FotH (until I get 2 Griselbrand) in the main. The rest is standard Dredge in the main... At work or I'd post the entire decklist to see...
why cut the putrid imps? they're a good discard outlet. also can fly in for damage and chump block and feed ichorid/cabal therapy and net tokens. i keep them as a 4 of.
You've cut imps because you can't get LED? That's the most backward thing I've heard in a while. Usually when you cut LED you add tireless tribe so that you still have 8 turn-1 discard outlets.
No, I am running 4 Imps. If I get the 4 LED, I wanted to cut out the 4 Imps. I thought it should be one or the other, not both Imps and LED.
Okay, I wanted to build a Legacy deck. I just finished making my Merfolk deck for Modern because I've always loved Merfolk as a tribal, and it was easy and relatively cheap (compared to Tarmogoyf decks...). I wanted to transform that list into a Legacy deck (which only really needs to add Wasteland instead of Tectonic Edge, and Force of Will and True-Name Nemesis instead of other cards. Then, I glanced at the Dredge forum.
I actually went to a Grand Prix with my Dredge a few years back (when there were Fetchlands, Cephalid Sages and Flash of Insights). Loved it. Even when you lost, you told yourself "If I only flipped another dredger I would have had the game..." I even remember that day's games (and it was about 2005/2006) just because they were some of the most fun match ups I've ever played.
One game was against a 12 year old that had the nuttiest hate vs me games 2 and three, I lost, and I've never wanted to punch a 12 year old in the face more than that day. PS, I was about 23 at the time...
Another game was a draw because my little dorks held the Tooth N Nail guy to the 5 turn limit after time was called... Ya. Game three, he busted my combo and I didn't quit. We shook hands and both agreed that it was a nutty, crazy game and neither one of us was angry about the Draw.
Another game lasted a total of 5 minutes. All three games. He was piloting Cephalid Breakfast, and He won, I won, he won. 5 min total.
So, instead of making Legacy Merfolk, I wanted to make Dredge again. The problem is this: I don't really even play anymore!
I wanted to make a deck for Legacy and Modern, so that I can jump into a game when ppl are playing Eternal Formats, and if I ever get back in to regular playing, I have decks I can improve on, play and always have.
This is why I don't have a metagame, or cards I can specifically work on. I've tried to look at everyone's lists on this thread, and I've tried to make it a mash-up of everyone's good ideas.
When I was looking at lists, I either saw people with Putrid Imps/Tireless Tribes, or lists with LED. I really didn't notice lists with both. If you're suggesting that I run both, what would I cut from the above list? Remember, I want to run Griselbrand over FotH.
If you guys could help with a generic SB that would be a good base to work off of, and help with the maindeck, please do! Thanks
**** this site. I'd delete this account but that doesn't seem to be an option. The mods here are ******* useless ********s who ban people for simple ass normal words. **** them and **** this site.
Chain of Vapor is for any permanent that prevents you from combo-ing. Nature's Claim is for any Art/Enchant hate turn 1 (assuming Void / Sanctity and others like that) Why do I see this MORE than Chain of Vapor in most SBs? Doesn't Chain work for Art/Enchant/Creat/P'walkers? Why Bother with this? Ancient Grudge are for Artifacts, but can be dredged and played via Flashback, so it can be used mid-combo. I'm going to assume this card is for things like Engineered Explosives / Ratchet Bomb because they aren't popped to do anything besides take out tokens, so you can blow the explosives / bombs prior to sacrificing any creatures to reanimate... Firestorm is for opposing Creatures, but don't understand what could be that bad by turn 3-4 that you need to pitch lots... This is just me being ignorant to the meta, but unless it's another combo deck, can't we just run over other 'aggro' decks? Memory's Journey is there to protect your Bridges or in a clutch situation put Narcomoebas back into your library when you're stuck discarding them, or they somehow ended up in your hand and not milling them. But this is the card i feel like I am missing the point of... Is there a secret to this card being in boards, or did I guess right?
Can I have some of the cards those listed above are supposed to hate on? Or the decks that they are for?
Maybe I'm asking the wrong question... What are the hate cards facing Dredge? I remember Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Gaddock Teeg, Wheel of Sun and Moon were all cards that hosed the deck, and there were specific answers to each. What are the hater cards against dredge, and what are some answers for those haters...
Ah, misread. However, cutting imps is still a bad idea. You need 8 discard outlets main to be as certain as possible to get at least 1 in your opening hand. A LED Dredge list uses 4 LED, 4 Imp, LEDless is 4 imp, 4 tribe. Imp is definitely the one that you keep when you put LED in because its potentially a 2/2 flyer for 1 and you can exile it for ichorid.
In my list specifically, what do you think should be taken out to add the 4 LED / Tireless Tribe? seems like everything is pretty standard...
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
Maybe I'm asking the wrong question... What are the hate cards facing Dredge? I remember Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Gaddock Teeg, Wheel of Sun and Moon were all cards that hosed the deck, and there were specific answers to each. What are the hater cards against dredge, and what are some answers for those haters...
@archdukeofevil - Thank you for the start!
-Yawg
The main hate you'll face up against is actually rest in peace, surgical extraction,extirpate, relic of progenitus, deathrite shaman, and sometimes grafdigger's cage. The hate you named is pretty much outdated. Void is mainly a vintage card, relic is better than crypt in almost everyway, wheel is outclassed by rest in peace, and you can usually win without casting dread return, so teeg doesnt do much. Ashen Ghoul is another great sideboard card to diversify yourself against hate cards like surgical and extirpate. I had my doubts until I tried him, and he is absolutely amazing.
In regards to what you are running that is so different from other dredge decks, your dread return package is a little large for the mainboard. Most lists only play 2 dr and 2 dr targets. The reason to run flayer is to get around attacking your opponent, and zealot is usually overkill. I personally prefer quadlazer with a dr sideboard if I feel I need that. Both have merits, but anymore its usually enough to just make a ton of zombies and mind twist them with your therapies, so game 1 dr usually isnt very necessary. A few people also only play 3 breakthroughs, so theres that.
Ps, putrid imp is simply amazing, never cut him.
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Okay, I get how to deal with Relic, Shaman and Cage. Pretty much every card mentioned above (in some combination or preference) will deal with it. How do you all handle Rest in Peace and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction? Seems like, other than countering it or DRing an Iona, Shield of Emeria before it hits, it'll kill your stuff as soon as it's cast... what's your call when facing these cards?
Ashen Ghoul is another great sideboard card to diversify yourself against hate cards like surgical and extirpate. I had my doubts until I tried him, and he is absolutely amazing.
Can you explain? I see it having as much drawback as Ichorid (unless they use an extraction / extirpate on a dead Imp...)
In regards to what you are running that is so different from other dredge decks, your dread return package is a little large for the mainboard. Most lists only play 2 dr and 2 dr targets. The reason to run flayer is to get around attacking your opponent, and zealot is usually overkill. I personally prefer quadlazer with a dr sideboard if I feel I need that. Both have merits, but anymore its usually enough to just make a ton of zombies and mind twist them with your therapies, so game 1 dr usually isnt very necessary. A few people also only play 3 breakthroughs, so theres that.
So, you think taking out the Flayers and a DR, or a FKZ and a DR is the key there? I was kind of going off the top 8 list posted a day or so ago that ran 1 FKZ, 2 Griselbrand, and 3 DR... Substituting Grisel for FotH... bad call?
Here's what I noticed that's different from yours and mine:
- You're running 2 Thugs. I mean, there's a 1 card difference between dredgers in your build vs mine... Has it hindered anything when you start dredging?
- 2 Careful Study. I did notice that when you start dredging, you're going to be milling away your card drawers. Has the drop in draw hindered your ability to get a draw card in your opening hands..?
Here's what I noticed that's different from yours and mine:
- You're running 2 Thugs. I mean, there's a 1 card difference between dredgers in your build vs mine... Has it hindered anything when you start dredging?
- 2 Careful Study. I did notice that when you start dredging, you're going to be milling away your card drawers. Has the drop in draw hindered your ability to get a draw card in your opening hands..?
-Yawg
if it has affected my dredging, i don't really notice it. I cut one thug for a 3rd dread return, cause i've had situations where if i needed one more i could win, but didn't have it. so I like having the third. if anything i can put a careful study in and take out a dread return. and drop a break through for a 3rd thug. my list is just how I feel the deck works for me.
if it has affected my dredging, i don't really notice it. I cut one thug for a 3rd dread return, cause i've had situations where if i needed one more i could win, but didn't have it. so I like having the third. if anything i can put a careful study in and take out a dread return. and drop a break through for a 3rd thug. my list is just how I feel the deck works for me.
Okay. I see what you mean. I personally like the 3 DR as well. I feel as though with Flayer, you sometimes need that reliable 2 DR in the yard. If I switch to Griselbrand, I think cutting that 3rd DR might be in order, since you're going to pretty much dredge the rest of your deck and get that 2nd for FKZ. While fishbowling I found that I could win if I could only sac the Flayer and reanimate again, or DR a Troll... So I may cut 2 Careful Study as well, and possibly Thug and Flayer for 4 Tribe (until i get LeD).
As for SB stuff, any more advice on all that?
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
Okay. I see what you mean. I personally like the 3 DR as well. I feel as though with Flayer, you sometimes need that reliable 2 DR in the yard. If I switch to Griselbrand, I think cutting that 3rd DR might be in order, since you're going to pretty much dredge the rest of your deck and get that 2nd for FKZ. While fishbowling I found that I could win if I could only sac the Flayer and reanimate again, or DR a Troll... So I may cut 2 Careful Study as well, and possibly Thug and Flayer for 4 Tribe (until i get LeD).
As for SB stuff, any more advice on all that?
-Yawg
being in my area, there's not much of a legacy scene, which sucks. so a sideboard isnt relevent to me usually. I do have some fire storms, and chain of vapor.and ancient grudge or natures claim, and a few separate DR targets which i change up. Not having real legacy metagame here kinda sucks lol.
being in my area, there's not much of a legacy scene, which sucks. so a sideboard isnt relevent to me usually. I do have some fire storms, and chain of vapor.and ancient grudge or natures claim, and a few separate DR targets which i change up. Not having real legacy metagame here kinda sucks lol.
When and how do you use Firestorm? I can see the interaction with the deck, but when would you use it? If you're opponent's have creatures worth using this on, won't it hurt your Bridge from Belows?
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
When and how do you use Firestorm? I can see the interaction with the deck, but when would you use it? If you're opponent's have creatures worth using this on, won't it hurt your Bridge from Belows?
early game it can take out 1 drops giving us more time. delver, Mom. basically turn 1 annoyances
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Ogre Battledriver wouldn't, as far as I know, provide your Zombie tokens with haste, as it requires another creature to enter the battlefield. The Zombie tokens enter before the DR target does (cost occurs before effect) and by that point the ability wouldn't have an effect. If I'm wrong on this, please feel free to say so.
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
Avacyn isn't great since she can be removed with Swords to Plowshare.
Not everyone has edict effects, so yes you can win with Simic Sky Swallower or Inkwell Leviathan, but sometimes you can lose because they will race you with giant Tarmogoyfs or Batterskull lifegain. Griselbrand and Flayer represent more damage more quickly.
Ogre Battledriver is not as effective as Flame-Kin Zealot because the zombies already in play don't get the +2 bonus and the zombies resulting from the DR/bridges go into play before so also don't get the bonus nor the haste.
Other popular DR targets include Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to kill tribal decks and Iona, Shield of Emeria against control heavy decks.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Creatures
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature's Claim
What do you guys think? Especially about his maindeck 2x Griselbrand and the 4x Gitaxian Probe in the sideboard.
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
Probe is actually really good in this deck. On its own, it's a 0 mana cantrip — which is nice — but it also peeks. This is incredibly powerful. Let me explain why. Say your hand has Gemstone Mine, Cabal Therapy, and Gitaxian Probe. You cast probe for 2 life and see two Deathrite Shamans. You can now play Therapy and strip their hand of those two shamans. Say you play it and you see a Nihil Spellbomb. Guess what card you're going to name with Therapy? The fact that it combos so well with therapy is what makes it so good. You can also use it to see if their graveyard hate consists of Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb — both of which play very differently. This is just one example of how the card comes in handy. Also, at its very worst, it's a 2 life cantrip and peek, which is never a bad thing.
What matchup would you bring in the Probes for, and what would you take out? From your description, it sounds like more of a mainboard card to me.
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
It comes in for games 2 and 3 so you can see what graveyard hate they boarded in and play around it accordingly. It also has amazing synergy with Cabal Therapy. You bring it in against any 'fair deck'; that is, any deck that isn't combo. In particular, you want it against cards like Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt.
Read pages 244 and 245, you will find the answers.
My question is which cards should I acquire, I want to have a decent toolbox so that I can adjust my deck to the meta without having to go out and find more cards. What cards should I absolutely have access to for my sideboard so that I can adjust to almost any meta?
Also are there general rules for when you should run grudge, chains, or claim in your sideboard? Has anyone put together a theory on which decks/cards each one is optimal against, or is it just the preference and feelings of an individual player on what to run. They are all so close that it is really hard for me to theorycraft which one to run, or if i should run combinations of them.
Also is there any consensus on whether quadlazer or a more combo dependent list is better?
Thanks
*edit* I'm running 4 putrid imp (until I get 4 LED) and 2 FotH (until I get 2 Griselbrand) in the main. The rest is standard Dredge in the main... At work or I'd post the entire decklist to see...
why cut the putrid imps? they're a good discard outlet. also can fly in for damage and chump block and feed ichorid/cabal therapy and net tokens. i keep them as a 4 of.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
No, I am running 4 Imps. If I get the 4 LED, I wanted to cut out the 4 Imps. I thought it should be one or the other, not both Imps and LED.
Okay then, here's my list as it stands now...
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Creatures (25)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Leyline of the Void
9 ?
I actually went to a Grand Prix with my Dredge a few years back (when there were Fetchlands, Cephalid Sages and Flash of Insights). Loved it. Even when you lost, you told yourself "If I only flipped another dredger I would have had the game..." I even remember that day's games (and it was about 2005/2006) just because they were some of the most fun match ups I've ever played.
Another game was a draw because my little dorks held the Tooth N Nail guy to the 5 turn limit after time was called... Ya. Game three, he busted my combo and I didn't quit. We shook hands and both agreed that it was a nutty, crazy game and neither one of us was angry about the Draw.
Another game lasted a total of 5 minutes. All three games. He was piloting Cephalid Breakfast, and He won, I won, he won. 5 min total.
So, instead of making Legacy Merfolk, I wanted to make Dredge again. The problem is this: I don't really even play anymore!
I wanted to make a deck for Legacy and Modern, so that I can jump into a game when ppl are playing Eternal Formats, and if I ever get back in to regular playing, I have decks I can improve on, play and always have.
This is why I don't have a metagame, or cards I can specifically work on. I've tried to look at everyone's lists on this thread, and I've tried to make it a mash-up of everyone's good ideas.
When I was looking at lists, I either saw people with Putrid Imps/Tireless Tribes, or lists with LED. I really didn't notice lists with both. If you're suggesting that I run both, what would I cut from the above list? Remember, I want to run Griselbrand over FotH.
If you guys could help with a generic SB that would be a good base to work off of, and help with the maindeck, please do! Thanks
-Yawg
For your sideboard I would recommend looking at some of the following:
Chain of vapor
Nature's claim
Firestorm
Memory's Journey
and
Ancient Grudge
For some possibilities
Okay. I'm going to assume:
Chain of Vapor is for any permanent that prevents you from combo-ing.
Nature's Claim is for any Art/Enchant hate turn 1 (assuming Void / Sanctity and others like that) Why do I see this MORE than Chain of Vapor in most SBs? Doesn't Chain work for Art/Enchant/Creat/P'walkers? Why Bother with this?
Ancient Grudge are for Artifacts, but can be dredged and played via Flashback, so it can be used mid-combo. I'm going to assume this card is for things like Engineered Explosives / Ratchet Bomb because they aren't popped to do anything besides take out tokens, so you can blow the explosives / bombs prior to sacrificing any creatures to reanimate...
Firestorm is for opposing Creatures, but don't understand what could be that bad by turn 3-4 that you need to pitch lots... This is just me being ignorant to the meta, but unless it's another combo deck, can't we just run over other 'aggro' decks?
Memory's Journey is there to protect your Bridges or in a clutch situation put Narcomoebas back into your library when you're stuck discarding them, or they somehow ended up in your hand and not milling them. But this is the card i feel like I am missing the point of... Is there a secret to this card being in boards, or did I guess right?
Can I have some of the cards those listed above are supposed to hate on? Or the decks that they are for?
Maybe I'm asking the wrong question... What are the hate cards facing Dredge? I remember Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Gaddock Teeg, Wheel of Sun and Moon were all cards that hosed the deck, and there were specific answers to each. What are the hater cards against dredge, and what are some answers for those haters...
@archdukeofevil - Thank you for the start!
-Yawg
In my list specifically, what do you think should be taken out to add the 4 LED / Tireless Tribe? seems like everything is pretty standard...
-Yawg
The main hate you'll face up against is actually rest in peace, surgical extraction,extirpate, relic of progenitus, deathrite shaman, and sometimes grafdigger's cage. The hate you named is pretty much outdated. Void is mainly a vintage card, relic is better than crypt in almost everyway, wheel is outclassed by rest in peace, and you can usually win without casting dread return, so teeg doesnt do much. Ashen Ghoul is another great sideboard card to diversify yourself against hate cards like surgical and extirpate. I had my doubts until I tried him, and he is absolutely amazing.
In regards to what you are running that is so different from other dredge decks, your dread return package is a little large for the mainboard. Most lists only play 2 dr and 2 dr targets. The reason to run flayer is to get around attacking your opponent, and zealot is usually overkill. I personally prefer quadlazer with a dr sideboard if I feel I need that. Both have merits, but anymore its usually enough to just make a ton of zombies and mind twist them with your therapies, so game 1 dr usually isnt very necessary. A few people also only play 3 breakthroughs, so theres that.
Ps, putrid imp is simply amazing, never cut him.
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On the topic of Moat:
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/936904 you dont need tireless tribe in the deck. I don't run them. here's my list
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Okay, I get how to deal with Relic, Shaman and Cage. Pretty much every card mentioned above (in some combination or preference) will deal with it. How do you all handle Rest in Peace and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction? Seems like, other than countering it or DRing an Iona, Shield of Emeria before it hits, it'll kill your stuff as soon as it's cast... what's your call when facing these cards?
Can you explain? I see it having as much drawback as Ichorid (unless they use an extraction / extirpate on a dead Imp...)
So, you think taking out the Flayers and a DR, or a FKZ and a DR is the key there? I was kind of going off the top 8 list posted a day or so ago that ran 1 FKZ, 2 Griselbrand, and 3 DR... Substituting Grisel for FotH... bad call?
Roger that. Going to cut something for 4 Tribe and then when I get the money, getting 4 LED.
Here's what I noticed that's different from yours and mine:
- You're running 2 Thugs. I mean, there's a 1 card difference between dredgers in your build vs mine... Has it hindered anything when you start dredging?
- 2 Careful Study. I did notice that when you start dredging, you're going to be milling away your card drawers. Has the drop in draw hindered your ability to get a draw card in your opening hands..?
-Yawg
if it has affected my dredging, i don't really notice it. I cut one thug for a 3rd dread return, cause i've had situations where if i needed one more i could win, but didn't have it. so I like having the third. if anything i can put a careful study in and take out a dread return. and drop a break through for a 3rd thug. my list is just how I feel the deck works for me.
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Okay. I see what you mean. I personally like the 3 DR as well. I feel as though with Flayer, you sometimes need that reliable 2 DR in the yard. If I switch to Griselbrand, I think cutting that 3rd DR might be in order, since you're going to pretty much dredge the rest of your deck and get that 2nd for FKZ. While fishbowling I found that I could win if I could only sac the Flayer and reanimate again, or DR a Troll... So I may cut 2 Careful Study as well, and possibly Thug and Flayer for 4 Tribe (until i get LeD).
As for SB stuff, any more advice on all that?
-Yawg
being in my area, there's not much of a legacy scene, which sucks. so a sideboard isnt relevent to me usually. I do have some fire storms, and chain of vapor.and ancient grudge or natures claim, and a few separate DR targets which i change up. Not having real legacy metagame here kinda sucks lol.
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When and how do you use Firestorm? I can see the interaction with the deck, but when would you use it? If you're opponent's have creatures worth using this on, won't it hurt your Bridge from Belows?
early game it can take out 1 drops giving us more time. delver, Mom. basically turn 1 annoyances
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