Hey guys. I just got a set of ports so my deck is finally completely assembled, just had a quick question: If I just want one Plateau for 4x Thalia out of the board, how many fetches should I run? The rest of the mana base is the standard: 4x waste, 4x port, 4x cavern, 1x plateau, 9x mountain/fetch. What's the optimal ratio here? 4 fetch/5 mountain? 5 fetch/4 mountain? Something else?
Hey guys. I just got a set of ports so my deck is finally completely assembled, just had a quick question: If I just want one Plateau for 4x Thalia out of the board, how many fetches should I run? The rest of the mana base is the standard: 4x waste, 4x port, 4x cavern, 1x plateau, 9x mountain/fetch. What's the optimal ratio here? 4 fetch/5 mountain? 5 fetch/4 mountain? Something else?
I run RW Goblins and I'm running 6 fetches. 4 Arid Mesa and 2 Bloodstained Mires. It's been working well so far. 6 seems to provide the consistency I need to ensure I have that white source when I need it.
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Iam on the same band wagon but i run 2 Plateu.s
Almost all of my side board is W and i need some times 2 sources of W
I run 2 Plateaus as well. Most of my sideboard is white and I run Thalias main. I also have a taiga for TSH as I hate Scrapper.
With the 2 Plateaus and the 6 Fetches, you have 8 sources of White should you need it. I also run a Taiga which the fetches ensure I have when needed. I also have 2 warren wierdings in the SB with a Badlands that I can swap out should that matchup call for it.
The fetches greatly improve the consistency of the toolbox nature of the deck if you are not running Mono-Red.
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Not to sound like a troll, but why isn't Goblins.dec embracing black? I know white splash is a thing, but discard + plagues + warrens weirding appear to be well positioned right now.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Not to sound like a troll, but why isn't Goblins.dec embracing black? I know white splash is a thing, but discard + plagues + warrens weirding appear to be well positioned right now.
I've been considering that, actually. Running all of those options would probably force Thalia goblins to cut back on the white, but they -might- be worth it. And for those looking to take the deck's synergy to the next level, there was an article on SCG a while back about Dark Prophecy goblins. I don't have the time to test any of this now, but I certainly will over winter break.
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Not to sound like a troll, but why isn't Goblins.dec embracing black? I know white splash is a thing, but discard + plagues + warrens weirding appear to be well positioned right now.
My current list is splashing both black and white. I still feel running the white splash, and doing your best D&T impression with mana denial is the best way to stand a chance against combo decks.
Black is definitely your best bet to deal with TNN though. REB/Pyro aren't really good enough on their own as it's dependent on drawing them and having the mana at the time they cast TNN, which when you run Wasteland, Port, and Cavern is definitely not a given. Warren Weirding is well placed right now with TNN, and Sneak and Show is definitely the more popular Show and Tell variant right now. I've also seen Reanimator (I'm playing it myself right now and I'm not alone) more because it ignores TNN, and is faster than the other decks ignoring TNN. Plague is solid as an answer to TNN gives you a solid answer to D&T, and Elves which while far from Goblins worst matchups are very popular right now. Also it's not the worst thing to have against TES and Merfolk (they can easily lord their way through it, but you can pair Plague with Sharpshooter and other removal to take out the lords).
I also think it's right to start running more Piledrivers again.
I've been cutting him down to one or two because decks like Jund were pretty popular, but pro blue is especially relevant right now as is just having the aggression against combo.
I'm looking at something like this if I were to play Goblins right now.
Not a fan of Gempalm Incinerator right now. He doesn't consistently hit the actual problem creatures for Goblins, and I think the consistency of Tarfire + Weirding is better than the card advantage of Incinerator. Tarfire hits DRS, Stoneforge, and Delver no questions asked whereas with Incinerator you need board position and it can get ****ed over if they have removal in response. I feel like if you actually have a large enough board presence to kill big creatures like Goyf, or KotR then you also have enough board presence to just chump block them while you continue to develop your board further. Weirding hits TNN and Nimble Mongoose, and in general is just fantastic against threat light tempo decks and it of course hits fatties that get cheated into play. I also want my removal to be able to get a turn 1 Lackey through and Incinerator not being able to hit DRS or Mongoose is noticeable.
I've moved away from Siege-Gang Commander as well in favor of Krenko. Commander is stronger off of a Lackey, but that doesn't happen as often now as it did back in the day. I think Krenko being 4 cmc is the big reason why I choose him. Five mana is just a ton, even with Warchiefs. I'm comfortable at 22 lands, whereas with SGC I was running 23. I feel like I flood less which is a good change of pace. It was always super awkward to tick Vial up to five because you wanted to play SGC, and then to draw a Ringleader. Being able to leave Vial at four feels a lot better. Krenko plus a lord is downright insane though, and heavens forbid you ever get Krenko + a lord + a Piledriver. You can create create an absolutely dominating board position out of nowhere, from next to nothing - maybe not quite as effectively as SGC, but Krenko's exponential advantage with numbers is scary. I think it's important to be as streamlined as possible right now and SGC is a little too clunky almost being a virtual mulligan a lot of the time, which breaks my heart to say as somebody who's been playing Goblins with him for years.
Because I'm running Krenko I bumped up the Chieftan count to two. Also, Chieftan makes good use of using Weirding on yourself. Turn a useless Lackey into a pair of hasted 2/2's, or even better how about you sac your War Marshal for three hasted 2/2's. I also would expect to see more Plagues in opposing sideboards as well with the other tribal decks doing so well right now. Elves, D&T, and Merfolk (and TNN in general) all have a target on their back and Chieftan helps you dodge the splash hate.
Trying to have as little cute things in the deck as possible. Singletons like Kiki-Jiki are cute. So none of them. The only other singleton I could see wanting is Stingscourger, but I'm running a second Weirding in its place. Stingscourger is generally only a tempo play whereas Weirding can be a permanent answer. Stingscourger being targeted has its advantages and disadvantages. Stingscourger is also better against Reanimator, whereas Weirding is better against Show and Tell. I think TNN is what edges things in Weirding's favor though. Some people might label Sharpshooter as cute, but when it's good it tends to be basically unbeatable so I think it more than warrants the spot. I think it's basically universally accepted that you need some sort of artifact hating Goblin for things like Jitte and Batterskull, and I think Tuktuk is the best in any deck regardless of splashes. Hooligan not working with Vial or Warchief is just too much negative synergy for my tastes (not that I'm even splashing green), so I will choose Tuktuk's 4cmc every time. Goblin Tinkerer is close, but the summoning sickness is too much of a drawback. WotC please print a Manic Vandal with goblin typing
Running two Badlands and one Plateau. The primary draw to white is Thalia, and Cavern + Vial help cast her, whereas with black you are running all spells so I feel like the extra black source is more important. One of each is probably fine, but it seems like basically all TNN decks are packing Wasteland in some number and I would hate to be cut off from being able to actually deal with a resolved TNN.
As far as the sideboard, Thalia should be obvious. Your best card in any combo matchup. I've been running her in the main for a long time, but moved her to the side to make room for more Piledrivers and the extra Chieftan.
Cabal Therapy is taking the place of what was Ethersworn Canonist in my board as the other big combo hate. Canonist is better against Storm, but Therapy is better against Show and Tell and Reanimator while still being pretty good against Storm. If you aren't running 3-4 Mogg War Marshals then I would replace Therapy with Thoughtseize, or if you just aren't used to playing with Therapy in general. War Marshal gives you free flashback though, and you obviously have a good deal of expendable bodies anyways. It's important to do the math on your clock with and without whatever you are using for flashback though as sometimes slowing down your clock is worse than the discard. Like if you just took Show and Tells out of their hand and they didn't have a fattie don't bother with flashback and keep your clock as fast as possible.
Engineered Plague's most obvious usage is naming humans, elves, or merfolk. Also fine against Dredge to name illusion (Narcomoeba) or horror (Ichorid), or just zombies so they only make 1/1 tokens that Sharpshooter now kills; not sure which is the best to name but I imagine you it against them. Against something like The Walking Dead you could name vampire or zombie so they can't recur Bloodghast/Gravecrawler, or you name spirit against Lingering Souls. I'm sure there are other matchups where it's a fine enough card.
REB should also be obvious. Counter cantrips, counter Show and Tell, counter threats like Delver and TNN, removal that ignores toughness against Merfolk aka lords.dec, answer Jace, etc. I don't think running more than two is necessary though. There are better cards for dealing with combo, better cards for dealing with TNN, and your strategy naturally matches up well against the strategy of blue tempo decks and blue midrange decks. It's versatile, and that's why it's still good, but I would rather have a mix of REB and better specific hate than loading up on REB.
Oblivion Ring is just your catchall for equipment, Planeswalkers, random artifacts/enchantments like Moat and Ensnaring Bridge, you name it. It also doubles as the (second) best thing you can be putting into play off of Show and Tell. The best obviously being Ashen Rider, but Oblivion Ring's extra utility outside of the Show and Tell matchup far outweighs Ashen Rider being a clock.
I have a split of Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace for grave hate. Rest in Peace is better gravehate, but Cage does have additional utility against Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order making it strong against Elves, Maverick, and Bant. Also, because I only have the one Plateau I'm favoring the colorless option over RIP's raw power. The 1 cmc is also a nice plus for Cage, as Reanimator, Dredge, and Storm (cutting off Past in Flames, although I don't think I would bring it in against TES, only ANT) can all be faster than Rest in Peace with great hands.
Just wondering what you think about cutting white, and just playing mindbreak traps in the sideboard against combo instead so you don't have to worry about splashing white at all.
Mindbreak Trap kind of pales in comparison to Thalia when it comes to combo hate to be honest. Alongside Thalia I like it more, but as your main piece of combo hate it's sketchy at best. The only deck(s) it truly answers is Charbelcher and other total glass cannon decks like Oops, All Spells, and Spanish Inquisition - all of which are a rarity and questionable to dedicate hate against compared to the popular and more robust combo decks like Show and Tell variants, Reanimator, and Storm variants. There's also potentially Dredge to consider but that's a different beast altogether - either grave hate or nothing.
For one, it does next to nothing against Show and Tell and Reanimator. That's the first and most obvious red flag.
Less obvious though, I don't think it's even that good against Storm decks by itself. Goblins isn't a super fast deck. This means Storm has plenty of time to wait a few turns before trying to go off. This gives them time to sculpt a better hand, and basically ignore Mindbreak Trap. TES can just build a hand that has Silence, and ANT can build a hand that has some form of discard. Either way, they have the tools to easily beat Mindbreak Trap and this primarily rests upon the fact that Mindbreak Trap is reactive. A purely reactive plan against Storm will only work if you overload on reactive spells and this basically stems from the fact that Storm decks are built to beat some degree of reactive interaction. Blue decks can accomplish this by being capable of casting say, Force of Will, Daze, and Flusterstorm in the same turn. TES casts Silence, you counter it, and still have countermagic available. ANT casts Duress, takes your Force of Will, and you still have countermagic. If you aren't playing blue you have to be doing something proactive.
That's what makes Thalia very strong. Rather than the combo deck forcing you to have an answer, you force them to have an answer.
That's not to say that Mindbreak Trap is all bad. Mindbreak Trap in addition to other forms of hate is actually quite good. Having both proactive (the must) and reactive hate can be potentially even stronger than just proactive interaction as it attacks them from multiple angles.
However I would still point out that Mindbreak Trap does very little if not nothing at all against Show and Tell or Reanimator so you still need to run other cards to deal with them.
So all that said, there are still some good options without splashing into other colors. Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst, and Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast.
Against Storm in specific, Mindbreak Trap can be strong in addition to other hate. Against Show and Tell in specific Ashen Rider can be strong in addition to other hate.
Against Reanimator or Dredge in specific you definitely want some form of graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus or Grafdigger's Cage. Ashen Rider also has application against Reanimator as most lists will have Show and Tell in some number.
And you saw them correctly. Goblin wizard as vial #5 and anti white tech and legion loyalist as a way to go over the top on TNN and help push damage through .
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i like the spells and land base...im playing it the same way right now. went 3-1 in a local 10 man event today..lost to dredge, won against sneak/show, ugb delver and elves
he is probably running 2 siege gang because he feels comfortable with those 3 tarfires to clean the way for lackey..dont really like it due to the same reason plum explained...i want my vial to stop at 4.
thalia i would cut to 3 ..
my creature base looks little messy, but only at first sight probably..
i cut REB from sb cause theres no merfolk and i feel like im always tapped out for ports etc..4 grave hate cause there's some dredge going on...i like 2 cages because it's nice against elves, which i can board 8 cards against whick is pretty nice..if there was much combo i would add discards..
That t8 loss at SCG that just happened was disappointing, I disagreed with several lines of play he took. Commentators mentioned he had 2 tin streets main board correct? So why wouldn't he make his 4th land drop, cycle the gempalm onto stoneforge in hope of either drawing Matron (who would tutor for tin street) or just another tin street. He had green mana open if he used his resources correctly. Instead he just folded and didn't play to the 4 outs he had. He very well could have won the next turn (should he have gotten one of his outs) by going vial triggers on stack, bring in warchief, then have the other tick to 5 vial in siege gang, play other random dudes swing with everything and sac accordingly with prospector.
That t8 loss at SCG that just happened was disappointing, I disagreed with several lines of play he took. Commentators mentioned he had 2 tin streets main board correct? So why wouldn't he make his 4th land drop, cycle the gempalm onto stoneforge in hope of either drawing Matron (who would tutor for tin street) or just another tin street. He had green mana open if he used his resources correctly. Instead he just folded and didn't play to the 4 outs he had. He very well could have won the next turn (should he have gotten one of his outs) by going vial triggers on stack, bring in warchief, then have the other tick to 5 vial in siege gang, play other random dudes swing with everything and sac accordingly with prospector.
Well the tin streets were a fine call as he expected lots of equipment, ended up being a relevant meta call. I personally play 2 scrappers for the amount of jittes and batterskulls floating around. Still if you are playing that many you should maximize your chance of getting them into your hand, of which he still had the oppurtunity and simply didn't do.
Beyond that if that doesn't show how popular equipment is and how needed relevant MD destruction is then I don't know what will. Good call on his part, hopefully people will keep this in mind for future endeavors.
I guess the real question is to whether one should drop green and play tuktuk scrapper instead. His cost of 4 is not good against the 3 casting cost swords. You're probably fine on the play but on the draw tuktuk scrapper might be a bit slow. Also, dropping green could mean adding black in and that provides a stronger sideboard against zoo/tarmagoyf decks.
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The actual question is:
"Is it worth running tin street because when I play warchief I can't pay the green"
That's the draw to tuktuk. Always castable to get the desired effect. Otherwise it is easy to splash multiple colours if absolutely needed. I'm starting to feel like there is a place right now for classic mono red goblins myself.
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Went to FNM and was intending to do some Limited, but actually had the chance to play some casual Legacy instead...
Had a pretty insane game against Sneak and Show.
I'm on the draw with a turn one Lackey which dropped Warchief into play. I ended my turn two by casting a War Marshal. My opponent untaps, plays his third land and casts Show and Tell. He drops Griselbrand into play, and I drop Krenko into play. Krenko has haste thanks to Warchief so I'm able to immediately tap him for five tokens.
I untapped, drew and cast a second War Marshal and tapped Krenko for twelve tokens. I swing in with every available body except the Warchief; my opponent stays alive at five life thanks to Griselbrand's lifelink.
At this point the only way he could possibly win was having a fourth land, Sneak Attack, Lotus Petal, and Emrakul. Yeah... he didn't quite get there... but he was kind enough to not scoop.
So I untap, draw and cast Matron, tutor and cast Piledriver, and finish up my main phase by tapping Krenko for another twenty six tokens. My boardstate on turn four was Lackey, Warchief, Matron, Piledriver, Krenko, and forty seven Goblin tokens.
I swung in with everything this time... Piledriver was a 101/2.
So fun stories aside, I'm not a big fan of the green splash. I don't think it brings all that much unique advantages. Hooligan is just as clunky as Scrapper; it's efficiency is often wasted because it doesn't work with Lackey, Vial, and Warchief. What else does the green splash bring? Krosan Grip is good, but I think Wear//Tear is more than a suitable replacement, and actually better occasionally if Split Second doesn't matter because it's more efficient.
Rather than a dual green/white splash I think the black/white splash is where you would want to be these days. Mostly because black gives you Warren Weirding which is fantastic against TNN and any fatties that might be cheated into play against you. I also love that it unconditionally clears the way for Lackey.
I saw that the top 16 list from SCG St Luis wasn't running any Incinerators. I've been on the same page for a couple of months now. It's too conditional for my tastes, often being win-more, and I think consistency is worth more than card advantage. It's not like we're lacking in the card advantage department without Incinerator anyways. Though if I wasn't running black for Weirding I would still have a couple Incinerators as I don't think you can only rely on Tarfire for removal as you need at least some ability to remove a larger creature.
I run RW Goblins and I'm running 6 fetches. 4 Arid Mesa and 2 Bloodstained Mires. It's been working well so far. 6 seems to provide the consistency I need to ensure I have that white source when I need it.
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I run 2 Plateaus as well. Most of my sideboard is white and I run Thalias main. I also have a taiga for TSH as I hate Scrapper.
With the 2 Plateaus and the 6 Fetches, you have 8 sources of White should you need it. I also run a Taiga which the fetches ensure I have when needed. I also have 2 warren wierdings in the SB with a Badlands that I can swap out should that matchup call for it.
The fetches greatly improve the consistency of the toolbox nature of the deck if you are not running Mono-Red.
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I've been considering that, actually. Running all of those options would probably force Thalia goblins to cut back on the white, but they -might- be worth it. And for those looking to take the deck's synergy to the next level, there was an article on SCG a while back about Dark Prophecy goblins. I don't have the time to test any of this now, but I certainly will over winter break.
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My current list is splashing both black and white. I still feel running the white splash, and doing your best D&T impression with mana denial is the best way to stand a chance against combo decks.
Black is definitely your best bet to deal with TNN though. REB/Pyro aren't really good enough on their own as it's dependent on drawing them and having the mana at the time they cast TNN, which when you run Wasteland, Port, and Cavern is definitely not a given. Warren Weirding is well placed right now with TNN, and Sneak and Show is definitely the more popular Show and Tell variant right now. I've also seen Reanimator (I'm playing it myself right now and I'm not alone) more because it ignores TNN, and is faster than the other decks ignoring TNN. Plague is solid as an answer to TNN gives you a solid answer to D&T, and Elves which while far from Goblins worst matchups are very popular right now. Also it's not the worst thing to have against TES and Merfolk (they can easily lord their way through it, but you can pair Plague with Sharpshooter and other removal to take out the lords).
I also think it's right to start running more Piledrivers again.
I've been cutting him down to one or two because decks like Jund were pretty popular, but pro blue is especially relevant right now as is just having the aggression against combo.
I'm looking at something like this if I were to play Goblins right now.
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftan
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Aether Vial
2 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding
Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
2 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Plague
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
Not a fan of Gempalm Incinerator right now. He doesn't consistently hit the actual problem creatures for Goblins, and I think the consistency of Tarfire + Weirding is better than the card advantage of Incinerator. Tarfire hits DRS, Stoneforge, and Delver no questions asked whereas with Incinerator you need board position and it can get ****ed over if they have removal in response. I feel like if you actually have a large enough board presence to kill big creatures like Goyf, or KotR then you also have enough board presence to just chump block them while you continue to develop your board further. Weirding hits TNN and Nimble Mongoose, and in general is just fantastic against threat light tempo decks and it of course hits fatties that get cheated into play. I also want my removal to be able to get a turn 1 Lackey through and Incinerator not being able to hit DRS or Mongoose is noticeable.
I've moved away from Siege-Gang Commander as well in favor of Krenko. Commander is stronger off of a Lackey, but that doesn't happen as often now as it did back in the day. I think Krenko being 4 cmc is the big reason why I choose him. Five mana is just a ton, even with Warchiefs. I'm comfortable at 22 lands, whereas with SGC I was running 23. I feel like I flood less which is a good change of pace. It was always super awkward to tick Vial up to five because you wanted to play SGC, and then to draw a Ringleader. Being able to leave Vial at four feels a lot better. Krenko plus a lord is downright insane though, and heavens forbid you ever get Krenko + a lord + a Piledriver. You can create create an absolutely dominating board position out of nowhere, from next to nothing - maybe not quite as effectively as SGC, but Krenko's exponential advantage with numbers is scary. I think it's important to be as streamlined as possible right now and SGC is a little too clunky almost being a virtual mulligan a lot of the time, which breaks my heart to say as somebody who's been playing Goblins with him for years.
Because I'm running Krenko I bumped up the Chieftan count to two. Also, Chieftan makes good use of using Weirding on yourself. Turn a useless Lackey into a pair of hasted 2/2's, or even better how about you sac your War Marshal for three hasted 2/2's. I also would expect to see more Plagues in opposing sideboards as well with the other tribal decks doing so well right now. Elves, D&T, and Merfolk (and TNN in general) all have a target on their back and Chieftan helps you dodge the splash hate.
Trying to have as little cute things in the deck as possible. Singletons like Kiki-Jiki are cute. So none of them. The only other singleton I could see wanting is Stingscourger, but I'm running a second Weirding in its place. Stingscourger is generally only a tempo play whereas Weirding can be a permanent answer. Stingscourger being targeted has its advantages and disadvantages. Stingscourger is also better against Reanimator, whereas Weirding is better against Show and Tell. I think TNN is what edges things in Weirding's favor though. Some people might label Sharpshooter as cute, but when it's good it tends to be basically unbeatable so I think it more than warrants the spot. I think it's basically universally accepted that you need some sort of artifact hating Goblin for things like Jitte and Batterskull, and I think Tuktuk is the best in any deck regardless of splashes. Hooligan not working with Vial or Warchief is just too much negative synergy for my tastes (not that I'm even splashing green), so I will choose Tuktuk's 4cmc every time. Goblin Tinkerer is close, but the summoning sickness is too much of a drawback. WotC please print a Manic Vandal with goblin typing
Running two Badlands and one Plateau. The primary draw to white is Thalia, and Cavern + Vial help cast her, whereas with black you are running all spells so I feel like the extra black source is more important. One of each is probably fine, but it seems like basically all TNN decks are packing Wasteland in some number and I would hate to be cut off from being able to actually deal with a resolved TNN.
As far as the sideboard, Thalia should be obvious. Your best card in any combo matchup. I've been running her in the main for a long time, but moved her to the side to make room for more Piledrivers and the extra Chieftan.
Cabal Therapy is taking the place of what was Ethersworn Canonist in my board as the other big combo hate. Canonist is better against Storm, but Therapy is better against Show and Tell and Reanimator while still being pretty good against Storm. If you aren't running 3-4 Mogg War Marshals then I would replace Therapy with Thoughtseize, or if you just aren't used to playing with Therapy in general. War Marshal gives you free flashback though, and you obviously have a good deal of expendable bodies anyways. It's important to do the math on your clock with and without whatever you are using for flashback though as sometimes slowing down your clock is worse than the discard. Like if you just took Show and Tells out of their hand and they didn't have a fattie don't bother with flashback and keep your clock as fast as possible.
Engineered Plague's most obvious usage is naming humans, elves, or merfolk. Also fine against Dredge to name illusion (Narcomoeba) or horror (Ichorid), or just zombies so they only make 1/1 tokens that Sharpshooter now kills; not sure which is the best to name but I imagine you it against them. Against something like The Walking Dead you could name vampire or zombie so they can't recur Bloodghast/Gravecrawler, or you name spirit against Lingering Souls. I'm sure there are other matchups where it's a fine enough card.
REB should also be obvious. Counter cantrips, counter Show and Tell, counter threats like Delver and TNN, removal that ignores toughness against Merfolk aka lords.dec, answer Jace, etc. I don't think running more than two is necessary though. There are better cards for dealing with combo, better cards for dealing with TNN, and your strategy naturally matches up well against the strategy of blue tempo decks and blue midrange decks. It's versatile, and that's why it's still good, but I would rather have a mix of REB and better specific hate than loading up on REB.
Oblivion Ring is just your catchall for equipment, Planeswalkers, random artifacts/enchantments like Moat and Ensnaring Bridge, you name it. It also doubles as the (second) best thing you can be putting into play off of Show and Tell. The best obviously being Ashen Rider, but Oblivion Ring's extra utility outside of the Show and Tell matchup far outweighs Ashen Rider being a clock.
I have a split of Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace for grave hate. Rest in Peace is better gravehate, but Cage does have additional utility against Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order making it strong against Elves, Maverick, and Bant. Also, because I only have the one Plateau I'm favoring the colorless option over RIP's raw power. The 1 cmc is also a nice plus for Cage, as Reanimator, Dredge, and Storm (cutting off Past in Flames, although I don't think I would bring it in against TES, only ANT) can all be faster than Rest in Peace with great hands.
For one, it does next to nothing against Show and Tell and Reanimator. That's the first and most obvious red flag.
Less obvious though, I don't think it's even that good against Storm decks by itself. Goblins isn't a super fast deck. This means Storm has plenty of time to wait a few turns before trying to go off. This gives them time to sculpt a better hand, and basically ignore Mindbreak Trap. TES can just build a hand that has Silence, and ANT can build a hand that has some form of discard. Either way, they have the tools to easily beat Mindbreak Trap and this primarily rests upon the fact that Mindbreak Trap is reactive. A purely reactive plan against Storm will only work if you overload on reactive spells and this basically stems from the fact that Storm decks are built to beat some degree of reactive interaction. Blue decks can accomplish this by being capable of casting say, Force of Will, Daze, and Flusterstorm in the same turn. TES casts Silence, you counter it, and still have countermagic available. ANT casts Duress, takes your Force of Will, and you still have countermagic. If you aren't playing blue you have to be doing something proactive.
That's what makes Thalia very strong. Rather than the combo deck forcing you to have an answer, you force them to have an answer.
That's not to say that Mindbreak Trap is all bad. Mindbreak Trap in addition to other forms of hate is actually quite good. Having both proactive (the must) and reactive hate can be potentially even stronger than just proactive interaction as it attacks them from multiple angles.
However I would still point out that Mindbreak Trap does very little if not nothing at all against Show and Tell or Reanimator so you still need to run other cards to deal with them.
So all that said, there are still some good options without splashing into other colors. Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst, and Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast.
Against Storm in specific, Mindbreak Trap can be strong in addition to other hate. Against Show and Tell in specific Ashen Rider can be strong in addition to other hate.
Against Reanimator or Dredge in specific you definitely want some form of graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus or Grafdigger's Cage. Ashen Rider also has application against Reanimator as most lists will have Show and Tell in some number.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
1 stingscourger
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 krenko, mob boss
1 goblin chieftain
1 legion loyalist
1 goblin wizard
2 mogg war marshal
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
3 goblin ringleader
3 gempalm incinerator
3 goblin piledriver
2 tarfire
4 arid mesa
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
3 cavern of souls
2 plateau
7 mountain
3 pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 red elemental blast
2 pithing needle
2 relic of progenitus
2 wear // tear
And you saw them correctly. Goblin wizard as vial #5 and anti white tech and legion loyalist as a way to go over the top on TNN and help push damage through .
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63829
i like the spells and land base...im playing it the same way right now. went 3-1 in a local 10 man event today..lost to dredge, won against sneak/show, ugb delver and elves
he is probably running 2 siege gang because he feels comfortable with those 3 tarfires to clean the way for lackey..dont really like it due to the same reason plum explained...i want my vial to stop at 4.
thalia i would cut to 3 ..
my creature base looks little messy, but only at first sight probably..
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain --> i like 5 lords, so i chose 3 warchief and 2 chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver --> noticed again today, that 4 are probably too much..suffers from the need to have a good-looking board...
3 Mogg War Marshall
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Sharpshooter (meta-based)
3 Thalia --> still like it main! if i had to cut it out id fill up with pildriver, warchief and 1 krenko
any thoughts?
my sb was:
2 Perish (one of my favorite cards atm...kills elves, goyf and drs)
2 Pyrokenesis (elves, mirror, death&taxes)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (elves , dredge, reanimator)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 RIP
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Ashen Rider
2 Wear
i cut REB from sb cause theres no merfolk and i feel like im always tapped out for ports etc..4 grave hate cause there's some dredge going on...i like 2 cages because it's nice against elves, which i can board 8 cards against whick is pretty nice..if there was much combo i would add discards..
he had even 3 tin streets.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64114
and i dont really like his list for not playing black an main decking 3 tin streets..
Beyond that if that doesn't show how popular equipment is and how needed relevant MD destruction is then I don't know what will. Good call on his part, hopefully people will keep this in mind for future endeavors.
"Is it worth running tin street because when I play warchief I can't pay the green"
That's the draw to tuktuk. Always castable to get the desired effect. Otherwise it is easy to splash multiple colours if absolutely needed. I'm starting to feel like there is a place right now for classic mono red goblins myself.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Had a pretty insane game against Sneak and Show.
I'm on the draw with a turn one Lackey which dropped Warchief into play. I ended my turn two by casting a War Marshal. My opponent untaps, plays his third land and casts Show and Tell. He drops Griselbrand into play, and I drop Krenko into play. Krenko has haste thanks to Warchief so I'm able to immediately tap him for five tokens.
I untapped, drew and cast a second War Marshal and tapped Krenko for twelve tokens. I swing in with every available body except the Warchief; my opponent stays alive at five life thanks to Griselbrand's lifelink.
At this point the only way he could possibly win was having a fourth land, Sneak Attack, Lotus Petal, and Emrakul. Yeah... he didn't quite get there... but he was kind enough to not scoop.
So I untap, draw and cast Matron, tutor and cast Piledriver, and finish up my main phase by tapping Krenko for another twenty six tokens. My boardstate on turn four was Lackey, Warchief, Matron, Piledriver, Krenko, and forty seven Goblin tokens.
I swung in with everything this time... Piledriver was a 101/2.
So fun stories aside, I'm not a big fan of the green splash. I don't think it brings all that much unique advantages. Hooligan is just as clunky as Scrapper; it's efficiency is often wasted because it doesn't work with Lackey, Vial, and Warchief. What else does the green splash bring? Krosan Grip is good, but I think Wear//Tear is more than a suitable replacement, and actually better occasionally if Split Second doesn't matter because it's more efficient.
Rather than a dual green/white splash I think the black/white splash is where you would want to be these days. Mostly because black gives you Warren Weirding which is fantastic against TNN and any fatties that might be cheated into play against you. I also love that it unconditionally clears the way for Lackey.
I saw that the top 16 list from SCG St Luis wasn't running any Incinerators. I've been on the same page for a couple of months now. It's too conditional for my tastes, often being win-more, and I think consistency is worth more than card advantage. It's not like we're lacking in the card advantage department without Incinerator anyways. Though if I wasn't running black for Weirding I would still have a couple Incinerators as I don't think you can only rely on Tarfire for removal as you need at least some ability to remove a larger creature.
15 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures (29)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Æther Vial
Instant (5)
1 Pyrokinesis
4 Tarfire
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Price of Progress
3 Winter Orb
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
I like the relatively cheap and simple mono-red build. (I bought the wastelands and ports years ago before the prices got insane)
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica