1. Average deck price: $1700+++ compare to: Used Car I purchased: $750
2. Spend $1700 dollars on deck anyway. Format is infested with combo decks, prison decks and a slew of other things that are about as fun as a root canal performed via your anus with a rusty pair of pliers.
Forgetting all else, lets remind ourselves that because modern and legacy are eternal formats, they remain the same forever. The same cards and decks that win legacy and modern tournaments five, hell 10 years ago win today. same decks and the same cards, over and over again forever. Yeaaaaahhhh, real fun. Im high on life staring down Tarmogoyf for the 1,412,452,345,235th time.
Hi, I play legacy, and it seems that you have some misconceptions about the format.
1) This is completely inaccurate. Using SCG's inflated prices, and the decks you are using is simply a poor way to do things. You can easily get into legacy for less.
2) This is completely inaccurate. Prison/Lock decks are no where near as popular in the national meta as things like Stone/Death Blade, or Delver, neither of which are prison/lock decks. Combo is the same. This sounds like you just don't have a nice meta, which isn't constant.
3) This just isn't correct, and I don't know where to begin with it. You seem to think that the only deck that exists is Tarmagoyf, which is wrong. You also seem to think that "Constantly adding more cards means it doesn't change" which is contradicting itself. Just look at TNN, a brand new card, that's completely changing the meta.
So, the main thing keeping you out of the format, is your own ignorance of it.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Hi, I play legacy, and it seems that you have some misconceptions about the format.
1) This is completely inaccurate. Using SCG's inflated prices, and the decks you are using is simply a poor way to do things. You can easily get into legacy for less.
2) This is completely inaccurate. Prison/Lock decks are no where near as popular in the national meta as things like Stone/Death Blade, or Delver, neither of which are prison/lock decks. Combo is the same. This sounds like you just don't have a nice meta, which isn't constant.
3) This just isn't correct, and I don't know where to begin with it. You seem to think that the only deck that exists is Tarmagoyf, which is wrong. You also seem to think that "Constantly adding more cards means it doesn't change" which is contradicting itself. Just look at TNN, a brand new card, that's completely changing the meta.
So, the main thing keeping you out of the format, is your own ignorance of it.
I'll admit that IMFPS has an aggressive position towards Modern/Legacy. I can't even separate when he/she is ranting about Legacy or Modern; it's all just one big hodge podge of "I'm mad at expensive eternal formats!"
But let's not sugar coat it. The main thing keeping 90% of people out of both Legacy and Modern is cost. Bad attitude or not, these formats are expensive.
Let's focus on Modern, because that's what the thread is about, and that's the format I'd would love to play.
1. Yes tier 2 decks exist, and they are cheaper. But, they are cheaper because they are tier 2 decks. People want to win, they want to play with the best deck possible; or at the very least, have more options.
2. It's hard to argue that if Wizards reprinted cards such as the fetches, Bob and Goyf intelligently, that it would lower the price of said cards and increase participation in Modern. Just look at Thoughtseize. That's a prime example of what a well timed, well placed reprint can do to the price of a card.
3. Modern isn't as diverse as it could be, but it's a blossoming format. It will eventually come into its own. Maybe the preemptive bans were too harsh, maybe not. Only time will tell. So it's reasonable that someone could be off-put by seeing the same deck over, and over, and over in the top 4.
The easiest way for WotC to support Modern would be supplementary products, it won't flood the market with staples, but the increased supply is welcome, a good example is Isochron Scpeter and Loam before and after Izzet vs Golgari
Well timed and fitting reprints are great, but supplementary products are the best way to ensure Standard does not get affected to much by staple reprints like Bob or Clique for example
Another Modern Masters, while welcome, could have an inverse affect on prices for staples
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
so what if they banned blood braid elf with ridiculously powerful things like goyf and deathrite shaman im pretty sure Jund is going nowhere.
and yes i used the price for scalding tarn. because If i ever played modern, it would be to play delver again. remember i was discussing what kept ME out of modern.
Again i get another legacy player telling me that Im wrong about the cost" lets look at the cost of a handful of legacy staples.
And please no more "play some marginally useful tier two or three deck, those are as cheap as a standard deck" if you play legacy or modern and especially legacy you're playing competitively. I have never seen a casual playgroup that plays legacy, or modern for that matter and If you have you're probably living somewhere where there are plenty of rich people. All the casual groups i have been part of play standard multiplayer or EDH.
Cheap decks are cheap for a reason, they are not using the cards that win games and are as a consequence, going to lose 70% of the time. Thankfully this has only been true in one standard environment I have played in, and that one just rotated out.
Besides, even if that last point weren't true and it is, I want to play a deck of my choice and my creation not be arbitrarily forced to play one thing or another because its the only competitive option that I wont have to take out a bank loan to purchase.
That's why standard is more popular and modern or legacy ever will be. No one wants to play a prohibitively costed, broken as Jenna Jameson's hymen format with a meta that never changes.
And you make the point that the Prison decks and such aren't all that popular? so what? the fact that the decks exist alone is enough for me. I want to play magic with as close to a zero percent chance as possible of being stuck in a game where i do nothing but watch some neckbeard breathe heavily though his mouth while i sit there and do nothing. Standard has enough of that crap with the insipid draw go control decks.
But let's not sugar coat it. The main thing keeping 90% of people out of both Legacy and Modern is cost. Bad attitude or not, these formats are expensive.
I think the thing keeping players out is the illusion of cost.
I assume we are only talking about competitive magic. NOT casual. If is is casual then you can make a deck in any format for cheap and so the argument against eternal formats is irrelevant.
If we are talking about competitive magic. Standard is the most expensive format. In modern and legacy, you can make a non-budget deck, and have all the cards you might want to play in that archtype, for lets say, 2000$. You can play that deck for years only spending about 100$ on new cards for it each year. If you get board of the deck after a year or so, you can sell it, likely, for about ~10% (per year passed) more than you paid for it. Ex: if you had bought esper stoneblade 4 years ago it would have cost you about 1800$, today that deck is worth 2900$. You could actually MAKE money, just by owning a deck for an eternal format.
In standard, competitive standard, you have to spend, on average about 100-200$ each time a set comes out. Either to add cards to an existing deck, or because the new cards invalidated your deck completely. Thats about 600$ a year. In 4 years you spent the same amount you did on your eternal deck only you get about 25% back of what you paid. So in the long run standard cost about 80% more than the eternal format.
Basing your arguements on objectively false facts makes you look pretty bad. All those prices are off. Or am I wrong in assuming that you meant a playset of wasteland for 170$? Because that would be true.
And please no more "play some marginally useful tier two or three deck, those are as cheap as a standard deck" if you play legacy or modern and especially legacy you're playing competitively. I have never seen a casual playgroup that plays legacy, or modern for that matter and If you have you're probably living somewhere where there are plenty of rich people. All the casual groups i have been part of play standard multiplayer or EDH.
I have only ever seen legacy as the format of choice for store run casual events. Jupiter games, play the game read the story, and crossroad games the first 3 I can think of that do this.
Cheap decks are cheap for a reason, they are not using the cards that win games and are as a consequence, going to lose 70% of the time. Thankfully this has only been true in one standard environment I have played in, and that one just rotated out.
Really? All that supply and demand nonsense has nothing to do with it?
Besides, even if that last point weren't true and it is, I want to play a deck of my choice and my creation not be arbitrarily forced to play one thing or another because its the only competitive option that I wont have to take out a bank loan to purchase.
Well its not true, so ok. How about just NOT play competitive standard for a season and then youd have about 500-1000$ laying around to spend on eternal cards that GAIN value over time instead of lose it.
And you make the point that the Prison decks and such aren't all that popular? so what? the fact that the decks exist alone is enough for me. I want to play magic with as close to a zero percent chance as possible of being stuck in a game where i do nothing but watch some neckbeard breathe heavily though his mouth while i sit there and do nothing. Standard has enough of that crap with the insipid draw go control decks.
You know what, ignore all the stuff I said. Stick to standard, no one playing eternal formats will miss your presence.
The easiest way for WotC to support Modern would be supplementary products, it won't flood the market with staples, but the increased supply is welcome, a good example is Isochron Scpeter and Loam before and after Izzet vs Golgari
Well timed and fitting reprints are great, but supplementary products are the best way to ensure Standard does not get affected to much by staple reprints like Bob or Clique for example
Another Modern Masters, while welcome, could have an inverse affect on prices for staples
Could not agree more about reprinting Clique. I'm running proxies of that card in my deck at the moment cause the price is ridiculous.
On another note, why is it that whenever there is a discussion about Modern on here, someone brings up Legacy? There are two completely different formats. I don't play Legacy, but I have nothing against that format and I wish the same attitude can be taken for those on the other side.
so what if they banned blood braid elf with ridiculously powerful things like goyf and deathrite shaman im pretty sure Jund is going nowhere.
and yes i used the price for scalding tarn. because If i ever played modern, it would be to play delver again. remember i was discussing what kept ME out of modern.
Again i get another legacy player telling me that Im wrong about the cost" lets look at the cost of a handful of legacy staples.
And please no more "play some marginally useful tier two or three deck, those are as cheap as a standard deck" if you play legacy or modern and especially legacy you're playing competitively. I have never seen a casual playgroup that plays legacy, or modern for that matter and If you have you're probably living somewhere where there are plenty of rich people. All the casual groups i have been part of play standard multiplayer or EDH.
Cheap decks are cheap for a reason, they are not using the cards that win games and are as a consequence, going to lose 70% of the time. Thankfully this has only been true in one standard environment I have played in, and that one just rotated out.
Besides, even if that last point weren't true and it is, I want to play a deck of my choice and my creation not be arbitrarily forced to play one thing or another because its the only competitive option that I wont have to take out a bank loan to purchase.
That's why standard is more popular and modern or legacy ever will be. No one wants to play a prohibitively costed, broken as Jenna Jameson's hymen format with a meta that never changes.
And you make the point that the Prison decks and such aren't all that popular? so what? the fact that the decks exist alone is enough for me. I want to play magic with as close to a zero percent chance as possible of being stuck in a game where i do nothing but watch some neckbeard breathe heavily though his mouth while i sit there and do nothing. Standard has enough of that crap with the insipid draw go control decks.
So much of this is either cherry picked or just wrong. First of all yes, the most expensive cards in the format are expensive. That doesn't mean you have to play them Last weekend at the Star City Open in Oakland you have:
Affinity getting 3rd place, TCG player has this deck come out to $335. Well within the price range of most Standard decks (which will drop to 1/10 of that after rotation).
Opps all spells getting 16th place, coming in at $358.
Yes, two are combo decks, but this is just from a single event last weekend, which was dominated by Blue deck running True-Name Nemesis and combo decks, segueing perfectly into....
The fact that the Legacy metagame is shifting all over the place now, with decks that hadn't been doing very well suddenly filling top 8's, because of the introduction of a single card. Anyone who says that the Legacy metagame is stagnant right now has just proven how little they know about the format.
And from your last paragraph, you strike me as someone who doesn't really like Magic all that much either way. Maybe you should look into other games. Like Checkers.
so what if they banned blood braid elf with ridiculously powerful things like goyf and deathrite shaman im pretty sure Jund is going nowhere.
You missed the point entirely when I said you were using old sources to further your biased opinion. Also, why should Jund go anywhere? WoTC isn't going to make the game easier for you by eliminating all your competition.
And please no more "play some marginally useful tier two or three deck, those are as cheap as a standard deck" if you play legacy or modern and especially legacy you're playing competitively. I have never seen a casual playgroup that plays legacy, or modern for that matter and If you have you're probably living somewhere where there are plenty of rich people. All the casual groups i have been part of play standard multiplayer or EDH.
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are plenty of people who play Legacy/Modern casually, and could possibly care less about what deck is topping.
Cheap decks are cheap for a reason, they are not using the cards that win games and are as a consequence, going to lose 70% of the time. Thankfully this has only been true in one standard environment I have played in, and that one just rotated out.
"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that." - Homer Simpson
Besides, even if that last point weren't true and it is, I want to play a deck of my choice and my creation not be arbitrarily forced to play one thing or another because its the only competitive option that I wont have to take out a bank loan to purchase.
I hate to break it to you, but hobbies cost money, unless you enjoy collecting seashells, which doesn't seem to suite your personality. Want to play golf somewhat regularly? Well you're going to need some good golf clubs.
I have three Modern decks, including your much beloved Jund deck. They didn't magically appear overnight, I had to trade and save to get to where I am right now. Yes, not everyone has money, but you are basically hating on a format because people have expensive cards and you do not.
That's why standard is more popular and modern or legacy ever will be. No one wants to play a prohibitively costed, broken as Jenna Jameson's hymen format with a meta that never changes.
Stay classy, my friend, stay classy.
And you make the point that the Prison decks and such aren't all that popular? so what? the fact that the decks exist alone is enough for me.
Congratulations, you and legions of other newer players have made the possibility of new prison cards absolutely zero. I personally don't care, but others may, but long as it makes you happy.
I want to play magic with as close to a zero percent chance as possible of being stuck in a game where i do nothing but watch some neckbeard breathe heavily though his mouth while i sit there and do nothing. Standard has enough of that crap with the insipid draw go control decks.
Ooh, really...?
and yes i used the price for scalding tarn. because If i ever played modern, it would be to play delver again. remember i was discussing what kept ME out of modern.
So you would never be the one who essentially shut players out of a game? You do realize that Delver in Standard was so bad they had to print Cavern of Souls, right? Delver may not be the worst offender, but between Ponder, Mana Leak, Snapcaster Mage, Vapor Snap, etc, you were completely invalidating everything your opponent did.
I enjoy magic very much good sir, I just detest the money pit formats. Its the sole reason why I didnt play much at all during the innistrad/Return to Ravnica standard because any competitve deck was $600+
Dredge? Affinity? and two combo decks? wow. im blow away. i take back my assertion that the meta doesn't change because you showed me three decks with strategies that have been around forever. Just because a deck that wasn't doing well starts doing well does not in any way mean that the meta isn't as stale as old bread. Its still the same stuff that been around for ages. shuffling it about makes no difference at all.
Also the previous poster's argument about standard being more costly in the long run, is completely true. Yes, over time, standard does cost more money. but i ask you this: Who in the name of all creation wants to play the SAME EXACT DECK over and over for years and years? that is my main point. even if i was to subject my bank account to rape and buy a modern or legacy deck deck, yes it lasts forever but I am stuck with that same deck until i spend that massive sum of dollars again. Its not like standard where i can save up over the course of a couple weeks and buy another whole deck for $300 or less.
I have a standard deck right now that costed me one box of theros-$89 and about $75 dollars in singles. And i compete quite well. Sure i have trouble beating $600 decks like esper control, but i almost ways go at least 2-2 and i often go 3-1. that's competitive. i haven't gotten first place, but i don't need to. being able to win a game here and there is enough for me to have some fun.
I challenge every person here calling me ignorant to show me a viable modern or legacy deck that does the same thing my standard deck does for the same price that isn't a gimmicky or combo deck.
Show me one viable, consistent, competitive modern or legacy deck for the same $164 price tag as my standard deck. and i will right here and now retract all my statements and admit i was wrong and do so thankfully and without bitterness. It would actually please me greatly.
This, believe it or not, is not a personal attack against legacy or modern players, far from it. This is me saying from the perspective of a somewhat new player that the barriers keeping me from modern and legacy are very real.
Could not agree more about reprinting Clique. I'm running proxies of that card in my deck at the moment cause the price is ridiculous.
On another note, why is it that whenever there is a discussion about Modern on here, someone brings up Legacy? There are two completely different formats. I don't play Legacy, but I have nothing against that format and I wish the same attitude can be taken for those on the other side.
I think Legacy gets brought up because it's the other eternal format, and it does have some issues: the reserved list means some staple cards will never again be printed, meaning the price barrier for entry gets higher every year. Wizards is directly supporting Modern, and if they really want it to draw in players, they need to work on the perception that always pops up in these threads, the perception that "modern is too expensive."
Modern has a higher price barrier than Standard, even though Modern cards tend to hold their value much better over time. Math says that Modern is actually the better format to get into, but many people don't see the long-term value, they see the immediate price barrier.
It's a perception issue, and if Wizards really wants to grow Modern, they need to lower the initial cost by reprinting the highest-priced staples. Shocks were a good start, and rumors keep circulating that fetches will be coming soon. MM was VERY useful for this, dropping the price of the commons and uncommons significantly.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I enjoy magic very much good sir, I just detest the money pit formats. Its the sole reason why I didnt play much at all during the innistrad/Return to Ravnica standard because any competitve deck was $600+
Dredge? Affinity? and two combo decks? wow. im blow away. i take back my assertion that the meta doesn't change because you showed me three decks with strategies that have been around forever. Just because a deck that wasn't doing well starts doing well does not in any way mean that the meta isn't as stale as old bread. Its still the same stuff that been around for ages. shuffling it about makes no difference at all.
So the same midrange goodstuff decks, red based aggro and creature light blue based control deck that have been around in standard for the past 10 years are some how different?
Also the previous poster's argument about standard being more costly in the long run, is completely true. Yes, over time, standard does cost more money. but i ask you this: Who in the name of all creation wants to play the SAME EXACT DECK over and over for years and years? that is my main point. even if i was to subject my bank account to rape and buy a modern or legacy deck deck, yes it lasts forever but I am stuck with that same deck until i spend that massive sum of dollars again. Its not like standard where i can save up over the course of a couple weeks and buy another whole deck for $300 or less.
Thats the thing though. If you get bored of your legacy/modern in even month, you can sell/trade for almost always MORE than you paid for it.
Standard you buy a 300$ deck. It rotates or gets boring, you sell it for 100$ and buy another 300$ deck. You've lost 500$ over a year or whatever.
Eternal formats you buy a 300$ deck, it gets boring in a couple months so you sell it for 300$ and buy another 300$ deck. YOU LOSE NO MONEY.
OR even better, you get an eternal deck for 300$, you get bored of it in a year and you sell it 500$ and buy a different 300$ deck. YOU GAIN MONEY.
I have a standard deck right now that costed me one box of theros-$89 and about $75 dollars in singles. And i compete quite well. Sure i have trouble beating $600 decks like esper control, but i almost ways go at least 2-2 and i often go 3-1. that's competitive. i haven't gotten first place, but i don't need to. being able to win a game here and there is enough for me to have some fun.
I think you and I have a different idea of "competitive". A budget standard deck that you play at FNM (or whatever event you play that only has 4 rounds) is NOT competitive magic. Im not sure why you are complaining about legacy/modern decks being expensive if you appear to enjoy paying low cost decks at casual events.
I challenge every person here calling me ignorant to show me a viable modern or legacy deck that does the same thing my standard deck does for the same price that isn't a gimmicky or combo deck.
Show me one viable, consistent, competitive modern or legacy deck for the same $164 price tag as my standard deck. and i will right here and now retract all my statements and admit i was wrong and do so thankfully and without bitterness. It would actually please me greatly.
What is not gimmicky? Assuming Affinity, burn, dredge, white weenie/martyr proc, tron and merfolk are "gimmicky", you must want a goodstuff deck? How about you show me a non-gimmicky, standard goodstuff deck that you can make for 165$.
Could not agree more about reprinting Clique. I'm running proxies of that card in my deck at the moment cause the price is ridiculous.
On another note, why is it that whenever there is a discussion about Modern on here, someone brings up Legacy? There are two completely different formats. I don't play Legacy, but I have nothing against that format and I wish the same attitude can be taken for those on the other side.
I think you missed my point some staples would affect Standard to much to be reprinted in it and are to valuable to be in a supplemental product. I feel for you on Cliques I picked them up when I built Fae some months (before MMA) right before Sunrise was banned I didn't expect the price hike that ensued short thereafter. Similar for Bob. The main driving force of Clique is that it is a staple in a very popular casual format (EDH) and in nonrotating and Eternal formats. Bob suffers moatly the non rotating part.
the other argument is functional design change of some cards and story reasons preventing reprints (example is Opt wont be reprinted, but would have a functional design change
To the second point I play constructed formats mostly and enjoy Legacy the most, but that does not mean I can't answer the question you ask and offer up what I believe is a reasonable solution. I have issues with all constructed formats to some degree, Modern has its flaws, but so do other formats, none of the formats are perfect.
Side Note several Modern Staples are also Legacy Staples so it is reasonable for Legacy players to engage in discussion about increasing Card availability.
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Show me one viable, consistent, competitive modern or legacy deck for the same $164 price tag as my standard deck. and i will right here and now retract all my statements and admit i was wrong and do so thankfully and without bitterness. It would actually please me greatly.
This, believe it or not, is not a personal attack against legacy or modern players, far from it. This is me saying from the perspective of a somewhat new player that the barriers keeping me from modern and legacy are very real.
Depends on the definition of viable and competitive as well as whether or not you would enjoy the options available to you.
Example Nic Fit can be built for under $150 using fast lands, checklands, and basics as well as staying 2 colors, can hold.its own vs many decks in Legacy, but you may not like the deck based on your playstyle. Similarly Infect Stompy can be built cheaply, heck you could just build the old Pauper deck with Invigorate.
An example from Modern I would point to non RG Tron as well as Suspend Balance
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Aside from me having little money and not being able to afford some of the cards used in Modern, I would say that the one other thing limiting my participation in the format is the knowledge of cards. Having just started around the time M14 came out, there are tons of mechanics that I have missed in the past 19.5 years of magic.
This is not to say that I never want to get into the format, it's just that it might take some time for me to get accustomed to the different decks that get played.
Aside from me having little money and not being able to afford some of the cards used in Modern, I would say that the one other thing limiting my participation in the format is the knowledge of cards. Having just started around the time M14 came out, there are tons of mechanics that I have missed in the past 19.5 years of magic.
This is not to say that I never want to get into the format, it's just that it might take some time for me to get accustomed to the different decks that get played.
That is a completely legitimate reason to not get into modern (or legacy).
Play limited and (casual) standard as you get more used to the game. After a while maybe eternal formats will seem more interesting and practical.
IMFPS, Modern and Legacy are both terrible formats. Stay far away from it. This includes Modern and Legacy threads on Salvation, and this advice only applies to you specifically.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
So 165$ decks in modern and legacy?
Legacy can have burn and dredge. And a couple of other decks if you're willing to play cheaper lands.
Modern can have yup burn again and blue tron, soul sisters.. living end with no fetchlands or fulminator mage still works quite well. If you're standard is going 3-1/2-2 in a local fnm these modern/legacy decks are more than enough to make you feel that you play magic and stand a chance.. I mean you're going up against 600$ esper control decks in standard well there's a number of decks that costs the same in legacy and modern that are good decks so how is it more expensive. I get that it's harder to get the cards (less trades, no drafts etc) but still if you buy the cards directly it would cost as much as an expensive standard deck plus you don't lose any value like a standard deck after rotation.
Because that 600 dollar esper deck in standard is THE money deck. Those 165 dollar decks in Modern and Legacy aren't money decks, they are BUDGET builds. I play Modern as a main format, and those decks are on the radar, but are basically a non issue. Living End less so than Matyr/Soul Sisters.
And please no more "play some marginally useful tier two or three deck, those are as cheap as a standard deck" if you play legacy or modern and especially legacy you're playing competitively. I have never seen a casual playgroup that plays legacy, or modern for that matter and If you have you're probably living somewhere where there are plenty of rich people. All the casual groups i have been part of play standard multiplayer or EDH.
My Legacy deck of choice is burn. The deck at the time I built it cost $100, right now that exact same build is about $85 (this is largely due to Chain Lightning going from $20 to $10, then that was somewhat offset by the increase in Goblin Guide). It does pretty well, even occasionally top 8's tournaments, locally I do very well with it, I've probably made $1000 in prizes off the deck and only put $100 into it.
The deck loses to things that require an early FoW like Reanimator but against fair decks like Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, or Miracles it wins a lot. I even have a winning record (38-35) against Dredge. Infact, you can even beat prison. I often play against vintage decks like stax with Legacy Burn and win 80% of those games. As a result you can usually do well with the deck, though sometimes the meta is just hostile but that's true of every deck in Legacy.
Anyways all that said, I'm not much of a Legacy player. My preferred formats are Vintage and Modern. Legacy is juts a low power Vintage and Modern has a totally different feel due to the lower power level. There are a lot of deck options in Modern, you can even make a good (but not mainstream) Melira Pod deck for less than the cost of a high end standard deck. To say nothing of a deck like Affinity if you want aggro.
IMFPS, Modern and Legacy are both terrible formats. Stay far away from it. This includes Modern and Legacy threads on Salvation, and this advice only applies to you specifically.
Show me one viable, consistent, competitive modern or legacy deck for the same $164 price tag as my standard deck. and i will right here and now retract all my statements and admit i was wrong and do so thankfully and without bitterness. It would actually please me greatly.
I can and have built Modern decks for less than $164 that can consistently 2-2 and occasionally 3-1 a FNM level Modern event (BTW, that is not a very high bar by Modern's standards). I could list them, but I won't, because:
A) I have no illusions that you would ever give up your position of "superiority", and would find some way to dismiss any list I post.
B) I have no interest in you or anyone with your attitude joining the Modern community.
C) Do the work yourself rather than demand deck lists from others.
D) A simple search of the Modern Deck Construction forum would get you the lists you demand.
There's TONS of Modern decks for just $100-200. Right off the top of my head, Lifelink Soul Sisters and Merfolk both fit within that price range. Quite frankly, Merfolk is a super consistant, powerful modern deck with a lot of flexibility.
There's TONS of Modern decks for just $100-200. Right off the top of my head, Lifelink Soul Sisters and Merfolk both fit within that price range. Quite frankly, Merfolk is a super consistant, powerful modern deck with a lot of flexibility.
The version that has the biggest punch is probably not within the $160 range, as it runs 4x Master of Waves and Aether Vial, and that's almost $100 right there. I did not add up the rest of the cards though, so I could be wrong, but Remand is almost $15 a copy and I think most builds run 3-4. Obviously I agree with you on there being decks that would meet the requirements, I just don't think that Merfolk fits that criteria anymore. Theros added a lot of power to the deck, but it also added a lot of cheddar.
Also the previous poster's argument about standard being more costly in the long run, is completely true. Yes, over time, standard does cost more money. but i ask you this: Who in the name of all creation wants to play the SAME EXACT DECK over and over for years and years? that is my main point. even if i was to subject my bank account to rape and buy a modern or legacy deck deck, yes it lasts forever but I am stuck with that same deck until i spend that massive sum of dollars again. Its not like standard where i can save up over the course of a couple weeks and buy another whole deck for $300 or less.
A lot of people do, a good deck can take years to master.
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Hi, I play legacy, and it seems that you have some misconceptions about the format.
1) This is completely inaccurate. Using SCG's inflated prices, and the decks you are using is simply a poor way to do things. You can easily get into legacy for less.
2) This is completely inaccurate. Prison/Lock decks are no where near as popular in the national meta as things like Stone/Death Blade, or Delver, neither of which are prison/lock decks. Combo is the same. This sounds like you just don't have a nice meta, which isn't constant.
3) This just isn't correct, and I don't know where to begin with it. You seem to think that the only deck that exists is Tarmagoyf, which is wrong. You also seem to think that "Constantly adding more cards means it doesn't change" which is contradicting itself. Just look at TNN, a brand new card, that's completely changing the meta.
So, the main thing keeping you out of the format, is your own ignorance of it.
I'll admit that IMFPS has an aggressive position towards Modern/Legacy. I can't even separate when he/she is ranting about Legacy or Modern; it's all just one big hodge podge of "I'm mad at expensive eternal formats!"
But let's not sugar coat it. The main thing keeping 90% of people out of both Legacy and Modern is cost. Bad attitude or not, these formats are expensive.
Let's focus on Modern, because that's what the thread is about, and that's the format I'd would love to play.
1. Yes tier 2 decks exist, and they are cheaper. But, they are cheaper because they are tier 2 decks. People want to win, they want to play with the best deck possible; or at the very least, have more options.
2. It's hard to argue that if Wizards reprinted cards such as the fetches, Bob and Goyf intelligently, that it would lower the price of said cards and increase participation in Modern. Just look at Thoughtseize. That's a prime example of what a well timed, well placed reprint can do to the price of a card.
3. Modern isn't as diverse as it could be, but it's a blossoming format. It will eventually come into its own. Maybe the preemptive bans were too harsh, maybe not. Only time will tell. So it's reasonable that someone could be off-put by seeing the same deck over, and over, and over in the top 4.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
Well timed and fitting reprints are great, but supplementary products are the best way to ensure Standard does not get affected to much by staple reprints like Bob or Clique for example
Another Modern Masters, while welcome, could have an inverse affect on prices for staples
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
and yes i used the price for scalding tarn. because If i ever played modern, it would be to play delver again. remember i was discussing what kept ME out of modern.
Again i get another legacy player telling me that Im wrong about the cost" lets look at the cost of a handful of legacy staples.
Force of Will-$69.94
Jace, the mind sculptor-$97.62.
Tarmogoyf- $130.00
Umezawa's Jitte - $26.90
Wasteland- $170.99
Dual Lands- $44.03---$178.60
And please no more "play some marginally useful tier two or three deck, those are as cheap as a standard deck" if you play legacy or modern and especially legacy you're playing competitively. I have never seen a casual playgroup that plays legacy, or modern for that matter and If you have you're probably living somewhere where there are plenty of rich people. All the casual groups i have been part of play standard multiplayer or EDH.
Cheap decks are cheap for a reason, they are not using the cards that win games and are as a consequence, going to lose 70% of the time. Thankfully this has only been true in one standard environment I have played in, and that one just rotated out.
Besides, even if that last point weren't true and it is, I want to play a deck of my choice and my creation not be arbitrarily forced to play one thing or another because its the only competitive option that I wont have to take out a bank loan to purchase.
That's why standard is more popular and modern or legacy ever will be. No one wants to play a prohibitively costed, broken as Jenna Jameson's hymen format with a meta that never changes.
And you make the point that the Prison decks and such aren't all that popular? so what? the fact that the decks exist alone is enough for me. I want to play magic with as close to a zero percent chance as possible of being stuck in a game where i do nothing but watch some neckbeard breathe heavily though his mouth while i sit there and do nothing. Standard has enough of that crap with the insipid draw go control decks.
I think the thing keeping players out is the illusion of cost.
I assume we are only talking about competitive magic. NOT casual. If is is casual then you can make a deck in any format for cheap and so the argument against eternal formats is irrelevant.
If we are talking about competitive magic. Standard is the most expensive format. In modern and legacy, you can make a non-budget deck, and have all the cards you might want to play in that archtype, for lets say, 2000$. You can play that deck for years only spending about 100$ on new cards for it each year. If you get board of the deck after a year or so, you can sell it, likely, for about ~10% (per year passed) more than you paid for it. Ex: if you had bought esper stoneblade 4 years ago it would have cost you about 1800$, today that deck is worth 2900$. You could actually MAKE money, just by owning a deck for an eternal format.
In standard, competitive standard, you have to spend, on average about 100-200$ each time a set comes out. Either to add cards to an existing deck, or because the new cards invalidated your deck completely. Thats about 600$ a year. In 4 years you spent the same amount you did on your eternal deck only you get about 25% back of what you paid. So in the long run standard cost about 80% more than the eternal format.
EDIT:
Basing your arguements on objectively false facts makes you look pretty bad. All those prices are off. Or am I wrong in assuming that you meant a playset of wasteland for 170$? Because that would be true.
I have only ever seen legacy as the format of choice for store run casual events. Jupiter games, play the game read the story, and crossroad games the first 3 I can think of that do this.
Really? All that supply and demand nonsense has nothing to do with it?
Well its not true, so ok. How about just NOT play competitive standard for a season and then youd have about 500-1000$ laying around to spend on eternal cards that GAIN value over time instead of lose it.
You know what, ignore all the stuff I said. Stick to standard, no one playing eternal formats will miss your presence.
Could not agree more about reprinting Clique. I'm running proxies of that card in my deck at the moment cause the price is ridiculous.
On another note, why is it that whenever there is a discussion about Modern on here, someone brings up Legacy? There are two completely different formats. I don't play Legacy, but I have nothing against that format and I wish the same attitude can be taken for those on the other side.
So much of this is either cherry picked or just wrong. First of all yes, the most expensive cards in the format are expensive. That doesn't mean you have to play them Last weekend at the Star City Open in Oakland you have:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61227
Affinity getting 3rd place, TCG player has this deck come out to $335. Well within the price range of most Standard decks (which will drop to 1/10 of that after rotation).
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61232
Dredge getting 12th place, coming out to a wallet busting $112.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61233
Opps all spells getting 16th place, coming in at $358.
Yes, two are combo decks, but this is just from a single event last weekend, which was dominated by Blue deck running True-Name Nemesis and combo decks, segueing perfectly into....
The fact that the Legacy metagame is shifting all over the place now, with decks that hadn't been doing very well suddenly filling top 8's, because of the introduction of a single card. Anyone who says that the Legacy metagame is stagnant right now has just proven how little they know about the format.
And from your last paragraph, you strike me as someone who doesn't really like Magic all that much either way. Maybe you should look into other games. Like Checkers.
You missed the point entirely when I said you were using old sources to further your biased opinion. Also, why should Jund go anywhere? WoTC isn't going to make the game easier for you by eliminating all your competition.
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are plenty of people who play Legacy/Modern casually, and could possibly care less about what deck is topping.
"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that." - Homer Simpson
I hate to break it to you, but hobbies cost money, unless you enjoy collecting seashells, which doesn't seem to suite your personality. Want to play golf somewhat regularly? Well you're going to need some good golf clubs.
I have three Modern decks, including your much beloved Jund deck. They didn't magically appear overnight, I had to trade and save to get to where I am right now. Yes, not everyone has money, but you are basically hating on a format because people have expensive cards and you do not.
Stay classy, my friend, stay classy.
Congratulations, you and legions of other newer players have made the possibility of new prison cards absolutely zero. I personally don't care, but others may, but long as it makes you happy.
Ooh, really...?
So you would never be the one who essentially shut players out of a game? You do realize that Delver in Standard was so bad they had to print Cavern of Souls, right? Delver may not be the worst offender, but between Ponder, Mana Leak, Snapcaster Mage, Vapor Snap, etc, you were completely invalidating everything your opponent did.
Dredge? Affinity? and two combo decks? wow. im blow away. i take back my assertion that the meta doesn't change because you showed me three decks with strategies that have been around forever. Just because a deck that wasn't doing well starts doing well does not in any way mean that the meta isn't as stale as old bread. Its still the same stuff that been around for ages. shuffling it about makes no difference at all.
Also the previous poster's argument about standard being more costly in the long run, is completely true. Yes, over time, standard does cost more money. but i ask you this: Who in the name of all creation wants to play the SAME EXACT DECK over and over for years and years? that is my main point. even if i was to subject my bank account to rape and buy a modern or legacy deck deck, yes it lasts forever but I am stuck with that same deck until i spend that massive sum of dollars again. Its not like standard where i can save up over the course of a couple weeks and buy another whole deck for $300 or less.
I have a standard deck right now that costed me one box of theros-$89 and about $75 dollars in singles. And i compete quite well. Sure i have trouble beating $600 decks like esper control, but i almost ways go at least 2-2 and i often go 3-1. that's competitive. i haven't gotten first place, but i don't need to. being able to win a game here and there is enough for me to have some fun.
I challenge every person here calling me ignorant to show me a viable modern or legacy deck that does the same thing my standard deck does for the same price that isn't a gimmicky or combo deck.
Show me one viable, consistent, competitive modern or legacy deck for the same $164 price tag as my standard deck. and i will right here and now retract all my statements and admit i was wrong and do so thankfully and without bitterness. It would actually please me greatly.
This, believe it or not, is not a personal attack against legacy or modern players, far from it. This is me saying from the perspective of a somewhat new player that the barriers keeping me from modern and legacy are very real.
I think Legacy gets brought up because it's the other eternal format, and it does have some issues: the reserved list means some staple cards will never again be printed, meaning the price barrier for entry gets higher every year. Wizards is directly supporting Modern, and if they really want it to draw in players, they need to work on the perception that always pops up in these threads, the perception that "modern is too expensive."
Modern has a higher price barrier than Standard, even though Modern cards tend to hold their value much better over time. Math says that Modern is actually the better format to get into, but many people don't see the long-term value, they see the immediate price barrier.
It's a perception issue, and if Wizards really wants to grow Modern, they need to lower the initial cost by reprinting the highest-priced staples. Shocks were a good start, and rumors keep circulating that fetches will be coming soon. MM was VERY useful for this, dropping the price of the commons and uncommons significantly.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
So the same midrange goodstuff decks, red based aggro and creature light blue based control deck that have been around in standard for the past 10 years are some how different?
Thats the thing though. If you get bored of your legacy/modern in even month, you can sell/trade for almost always MORE than you paid for it.
Standard you buy a 300$ deck. It rotates or gets boring, you sell it for 100$ and buy another 300$ deck. You've lost 500$ over a year or whatever.
Eternal formats you buy a 300$ deck, it gets boring in a couple months so you sell it for 300$ and buy another 300$ deck. YOU LOSE NO MONEY.
OR even better, you get an eternal deck for 300$, you get bored of it in a year and you sell it 500$ and buy a different 300$ deck. YOU GAIN MONEY.
I think you and I have a different idea of "competitive". A budget standard deck that you play at FNM (or whatever event you play that only has 4 rounds) is NOT competitive magic. Im not sure why you are complaining about legacy/modern decks being expensive if you appear to enjoy paying low cost decks at casual events.
What is not gimmicky? Assuming Affinity, burn, dredge, white weenie/martyr proc, tron and merfolk are "gimmicky", you must want a goodstuff deck? How about you show me a non-gimmicky, standard goodstuff deck that you can make for 165$.
I think you missed my point some staples would affect Standard to much to be reprinted in it and are to valuable to be in a supplemental product. I feel for you on Cliques I picked them up when I built Fae some months (before MMA) right before Sunrise was banned I didn't expect the price hike that ensued short thereafter. Similar for Bob. The main driving force of Clique is that it is a staple in a very popular casual format (EDH) and in nonrotating and Eternal formats. Bob suffers moatly the non rotating part.
the other argument is functional design change of some cards and story reasons preventing reprints (example is Opt wont be reprinted, but would have a functional design change
To the second point I play constructed formats mostly and enjoy Legacy the most, but that does not mean I can't answer the question you ask and offer up what I believe is a reasonable solution. I have issues with all constructed formats to some degree, Modern has its flaws, but so do other formats, none of the formats are perfect.
Side Note several Modern Staples are also Legacy Staples so it is reasonable for Legacy players to engage in discussion about increasing Card availability.
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
Depends on the definition of viable and competitive as well as whether or not you would enjoy the options available to you.
Example Nic Fit can be built for under $150 using fast lands, checklands, and basics as well as staying 2 colors, can hold.its own vs many decks in Legacy, but you may not like the deck based on your playstyle. Similarly Infect Stompy can be built cheaply, heck you could just build the old Pauper deck with Invigorate.
An example from Modern I would point to non RG Tron as well as Suspend Balance
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
This is not to say that I never want to get into the format, it's just that it might take some time for me to get accustomed to the different decks that get played.
That is a completely legitimate reason to not get into modern (or legacy).
Play limited and (casual) standard as you get more used to the game. After a while maybe eternal formats will seem more interesting and practical.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingBecause that 600 dollar esper deck in standard is THE money deck. Those 165 dollar decks in Modern and Legacy aren't money decks, they are BUDGET builds. I play Modern as a main format, and those decks are on the radar, but are basically a non issue. Living End less so than Matyr/Soul Sisters.
My Legacy deck of choice is burn. The deck at the time I built it cost $100, right now that exact same build is about $85 (this is largely due to Chain Lightning going from $20 to $10, then that was somewhat offset by the increase in Goblin Guide). It does pretty well, even occasionally top 8's tournaments, locally I do very well with it, I've probably made $1000 in prizes off the deck and only put $100 into it.
The deck loses to things that require an early FoW like Reanimator but against fair decks like Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, or Miracles it wins a lot. I even have a winning record (38-35) against Dredge. Infact, you can even beat prison. I often play against vintage decks like stax with Legacy Burn and win 80% of those games. As a result you can usually do well with the deck, though sometimes the meta is just hostile but that's true of every deck in Legacy.
Anyways all that said, I'm not much of a Legacy player. My preferred formats are Vintage and Modern. Legacy is juts a low power Vintage and Modern has a totally different feel due to the lower power level. There are a lot of deck options in Modern, you can even make a good (but not mainstream) Melira Pod deck for less than the cost of a high end standard deck. To say nothing of a deck like Affinity if you want aggro.
Care to explain why you feel this way?
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
MMA was an excellent idea that was crippled by one mistake - a foolish promise to keep it short supplied.
Had that promise not been so explicit, MMA would have been a roaring success that might have made Modern surge in popularity. MMA2 can fix this.
A) I have no illusions that you would ever give up your position of "superiority", and would find some way to dismiss any list I post.
B) I have no interest in you or anyone with your attitude joining the Modern community.
C) Do the work yourself rather than demand deck lists from others.
D) A simple search of the Modern Deck Construction forum would get you the lists you demand.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Case and point: Why haven't they printed a Standard Masters set?
Checkmate.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
A lot of people do, a good deck can take years to master.