Was watching an M14 seminar on Youtube by Ben Stark and LSV. Stark said you should always play second even if you win the roll as it gives you an advantage throughout the game.
Wondering thoughts on this. He said basically unless you have lots of 1 and 2 drops that drawing is almost always better.
M14 being a glacially slow format often came down to who drew more cards. This explained the relative power of blue and why you would want to draw first instead of play first.
Typically what I do is figure out the generally better option for the format (not my particular deck) and almost always pick that. The reason is that even if I'm playing a control deck in a "play first" format, I don't want to give my opponent the advantage by selecting to draw first -- in other words, exactly what he would have done had he won the coin toss instead.
Sometimes it's more important to make your opponent go "not first" than to make yourself go second, if that sentence makes any sense at all...
Typically what I do is figure out the generally better option for the format (not my particular deck) and almost always pick that. The reason is that even if I'm playing a control deck in a "play first" format, I don't want to give my opponent the advantage by selecting to draw first -- in other words, exactly what he would have done had he won the coin toss instead.
Sometimes it's more important to make your opponent go "not first" than to make yourself go second, if that sentence makes any sense at all...
I mostly agree with this for game 1s only. I should point out, though, that you can easily be playing a deck that makes your opponent's default choice incorrect - this most often happens when you've drafted the gimmick aggro deck in a slow format. Sure, their deck might want to draw first against 'the format'; that doesn't mean they'd want to draw against you specifically.
That said, I think more important than this whole general discussion is to rethink your play/draw decision before each game 2 and 3 now that you know more about your opponent's deck, regardless of how obvious the play/draw decision was for game 1. This is for two reasons: firstly you have more information about how games are likely to play, so you should use it. Secondly, you play a lot more g2+3s than game 1s so you get more marginal benefit from improving that part of your game.
I've seen so many players lose game 1 then immediately state they'll play without thinking and start shuffling up. I can safely state that more often than not, this is plain and simple tilt.
I used to draw in just about every draft format, but recently we've had a lot of formats with good, cheap aggressive creatures and without the solid early answers that let you reliably grind opponents out. I feel like I have to be on the play in Theros because there are few ways to recoup lost tempo, and the additional card isn't worth it when removal costs five mana. Scars of Mirrodin is the last block where I felt that drawing first was correct a majority of the time (close to 100% of the time, actually).
For Theros I don't think I've ever felt totally comfortable going second. It feels as though there's an inherent pace to the set that makes going first a sizeable advantage, particularly because so much of the interaction is based on combat tricks. Being able to play out your three/four/five drops, swing into theirs, and potentially blow them out if they incorrectly assess whether or not you have a trick can put you pretty far ahead.
The other end is harder to work with. If you're the red deck, and your opponent just dropped Wingsteed Rider on turn three while you were tapped out, do you use Lightning Strike right away in your first available main phase or do you wait till they try to boost the Rider? If you choose incorrectly, you might just have put yourself out of the game. I don't like being the reactive player in Theros.
I think the rule of thumb is for RW, RB types of aggro decks, the extra possible damage turn is important, as those tend to be very racey in the current limit format.
For UW, UB, GB slower control decks the extra card is usually more valuable with few expections (T1 Favored Hoplite, Sedge Scorpion).
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He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
Yeah, it's a common mistake to just look at your own deck and base your play/draw decision on that. After all, if player X is UB and player Y is WR, and they both want Y to go first, then clearly one of them is wrong. For game one you have to consider the format. For game two you have to consider your opponent's game plan.
I meant it as an off-hand rule if thumb for what you want your deck to be doing. Of course that has to be weighed against what you are playing against.
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He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
Was watching an M14 seminar on Youtube by Ben Stark and LSV. Stark said you should always play second even if you win the roll as it gives you an advantage throughout the game.
Wondering thoughts on this. He said basically unless you have lots of 1 and 2 drops that drawing is almost always better.
You might want to mention that they were talking specifically about sealed.
I used to draw in just about every draft format, but recently we've had a lot of formats with good, cheap aggressive creatures and without the solid early answers that let you reliably grind opponents out. I feel like I have to be on the play in Theros because there are few ways to recoup lost tempo, and the additional card isn't worth it when removal costs five mana. Scars of Mirrodin is the last block where I felt that drawing first was correct a majority of the time (close to 100% of the time, actually).
Sure, but I think core set sealed is a draw first environment which is what the video was really about.
Draft vs. sealed is definitely something to take into account here. Sealed pools tend to be less focused, so even when "play" is the correct choice in draft, the same block's sealed environment may be different.
As others have mentioned, the video is basically saying that M14 sealed is a draw-first format. A lot of other sealed formats don't work out that way. Even in Theros, where you end up with a fair number of durdly sealed decks, you still encounter stupid pools with multiple Wingsteed Riders+ways to trigger heroic or the all-you-can-eat minotaur buffet, and if your deck can't handle opposing aggressive starts on the draw, you should probably try to play first. Even if your deck can handle going second, that doesn't mean you should let your opponent play first...particularly when they have cards that your pool simply doesn't have answers for.
Where the play-draw decision becomes really interesting is in a top-8 draft where the decision has been made for you. With the recent trend of letting the higher seeded player decide whether to play or draw, you may need to adjust your draft strategy accordingly. If we assume it's a play-first environment, then, as the #8 seed, you'll likely never get to play first in more than one game in each of your top-8 matches. Do you then try to draft a more controlling deck? Do Yoked Ox and Setessan Battle Priest suddenly rise in value if you're in white and you find yourself passing a few too many Deathbellow Raiders? Should the #1 seed favor an aggressive strategy?
As others have mentioned, the video is basically saying that M14 sealed is a draw-first format.
FWIW, Stark and Vargas are doing a sealed seminar in advance of GP Sacramento next weekend, so hopefully they'll post that one online as well and we can get their take on Theros, and perhaps the block generally.
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Wondering thoughts on this. He said basically unless you have lots of 1 and 2 drops that drawing is almost always better.
Or even most. That is probably a lot of the reason Ben and LSV would have mentioned it for M14.
Sometimes it's more important to make your opponent go "not first" than to make yourself go second, if that sentence makes any sense at all...
But how often are we playing 2HG limited outside of prerelease events?
I mostly agree with this for game 1s only. I should point out, though, that you can easily be playing a deck that makes your opponent's default choice incorrect - this most often happens when you've drafted the gimmick aggro deck in a slow format. Sure, their deck might want to draw first against 'the format'; that doesn't mean they'd want to draw against you specifically.
That said, I think more important than this whole general discussion is to rethink your play/draw decision before each game 2 and 3 now that you know more about your opponent's deck, regardless of how obvious the play/draw decision was for game 1. This is for two reasons: firstly you have more information about how games are likely to play, so you should use it. Secondly, you play a lot more g2+3s than game 1s so you get more marginal benefit from improving that part of your game.
I've seen so many players lose game 1 then immediately state they'll play without thinking and start shuffling up. I can safely state that more often than not, this is plain and simple tilt.
The other end is harder to work with. If you're the red deck, and your opponent just dropped Wingsteed Rider on turn three while you were tapped out, do you use Lightning Strike right away in your first available main phase or do you wait till they try to boost the Rider? If you choose incorrectly, you might just have put yourself out of the game. I don't like being the reactive player in Theros.
For UW, UB, GB slower control decks the extra card is usually more valuable with few expections (T1 Favored Hoplite, Sedge Scorpion).
He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
I meant it as an off-hand rule if thumb for what you want your deck to be doing. Of course that has to be weighed against what you are playing against.
He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
You might want to mention that they were talking specifically about sealed.
Sure, but I think core set sealed is a draw first environment which is what the video was really about.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
As others have mentioned, the video is basically saying that M14 sealed is a draw-first format. A lot of other sealed formats don't work out that way. Even in Theros, where you end up with a fair number of durdly sealed decks, you still encounter stupid pools with multiple Wingsteed Riders+ways to trigger heroic or the all-you-can-eat minotaur buffet, and if your deck can't handle opposing aggressive starts on the draw, you should probably try to play first. Even if your deck can handle going second, that doesn't mean you should let your opponent play first...particularly when they have cards that your pool simply doesn't have answers for.
Where the play-draw decision becomes really interesting is in a top-8 draft where the decision has been made for you. With the recent trend of letting the higher seeded player decide whether to play or draw, you may need to adjust your draft strategy accordingly. If we assume it's a play-first environment, then, as the #8 seed, you'll likely never get to play first in more than one game in each of your top-8 matches. Do you then try to draft a more controlling deck? Do Yoked Ox and Setessan Battle Priest suddenly rise in value if you're in white and you find yourself passing a few too many Deathbellow Raiders? Should the #1 seed favor an aggressive strategy?
FWIW, Stark and Vargas are doing a sealed seminar in advance of GP Sacramento next weekend, so hopefully they'll post that one online as well and we can get their take on Theros, and perhaps the block generally.