It makes sense because they are different cards that play different roles in different decks. The two cards have no relation to one another, apart from requiring blue mana to cast. Wiether his opinion is correct or not, there is nothing illogical about it.
Your definition of "clearly broken" must be different from mine. It has a powerful effect, but so do Emrakul and Griselbrand. Having a powerful effect on a card doesn't break formats.
No it doesn't, play with Mind's Desire if you don't know how broken it is. I can't believe people are discussing Bargain and Desire.
So if I've played a few games of legacy (=non-modern) with friends, I'm a shining beacon of legacy knowledge.
On the other hand, if I've only played modern and limited competitively and done fairly well, and watched lots and lots of scg legacy streams, in your opinion my opinion is invalid.
Do you have any other insights to offer?
I'm not sure where you are going with this. I have many friends that make those same claims. "Oh a watch a lot of streams. I know all the ins and outs." Etc. They are not playing the format however. They are regurgitating what others tell them. If you don't play the format as you stated, your opinion has no relevance. It carries no weight. Playing "kitchen table legacy" also isn't the same, but at least it is better.
Standard doesn't compare to legacy. We have a new guy getting into legacy right now. He doesn't understand decks that don't deal in the red zone. Counterspells on his turn one blow his mind. What's a combo deck? That is a big gloss over but I hope you follow what I'm saying there.
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I have said things about True name nemesis, enough about him. Now, show and tell. That spell is on a stupid power level. Sneak and show, Omni-tell and what ever, it enables broken things. I don't play legacy and I acknowledge this problem.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
If people are discussing the unban of obviously, explicitly broken cards I think that's an indication that there's nothing better to do on this thread at the moment and Legacy is doing just fine. Show and Tell is small potatoes next to Yawgmoth's Bargain (although it would absolutely need to be banned in a gross bizarro world where Bargain was unbanned). Show and Tell decks are eminently beatable.
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Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Now, show and tell. That spell is on a stupid power level. Sneak and show, Omni-tell and what ever, it enables broken things. I don't play legacy and I acknowledge this problem.
If you think these decks are breaking the format probably you should continue to not play legacy; you wouldn't like it. Legacy now (and the last couple years) is about as balanced and divers as MTG has ever been in any format - probably more so. If you think combo decks which have many bad matches and do not dominate the top eight are broken, this just isn't the format for you.
Yesterday marked the third consecutive SCG one with at least one Jud deck in the top eight. Maybe we can finally drop the notion that TNN is "forcing out" non-blue midrange decks?
There were eight different decks in that final - four midange decks and four combo decks. Seems healthy to me!
DCI/WOTC are trying to make the Legacy and Vintage B/R list as small as possible. Since the formats inception in 2004 there have been the following changes.
Banned:
Imperial Seal (2005)
Flash (2007)
Shahrazad (2007)
Time Vault (2008)
Mystical Tutor (2010)
Survival of the Fittest (2010)
Mental Mistep (2011)
Unbanned:
Mind over Matter (2007)
Replenish (2007)
Dream Halls (2009)
Entomb (2009)
Metalworker (2009)
Grim Monolith (2010)
Illusionary Mask (2010)
Time Spiral (2010)
Land Tax (2012)
I don't think any cards will be Banned in the up coming B/R update.
Cards that can be unbanned in my opinion are:
Black Vise (little impact on Vintage since unrestricted and not that powerful)
Earthcraft (not great without Squirrel's Nest and is that a better combo than elves, SnT, ANT, TES, Reanimator, Helm, Painter, etc.)
Goblin Recruiter (Food Chain Goblins combo can be stopped easily and not a better combo that those listed under Earthcraft)
Mind Twist (little impact in Vintage since unrestricted and Hymm is better)
Mind's Desire (probably not that much better than current storm decks, Time Spiral was unbanned to little affect on the metagame. The format can adjust to beat storm easily)
All of these cards have been on the Banned list since the formats inception. Legacy is very different that it was in 2004. Cards that were oppressive years ago will not have the same impact today. Just look at all the unbannings they have done! None of those cards are in a Tier 1 deck (or arguably Tier 2). I don't think any of these will make waves in the current Legacy environment. Yes they will be tested, but they won't break into tier 1.
I think the consensus has been that Goblin Recruiter can stay banned for logistical reasons alone.
Thumb twiddle search+shuffle time would breach tolerance levels with deck-stacking tanks.
Yea, but the part people miss is the after effects. I have play the deck in Vintage for fun sometimes. When you combo off, you want to keep a fetch open just in case something goes amiss. If you have to crack the fetch you need to pile shuffle the deck because you ordered it. If you don't you end up with clumps of creatures and non creatures. So not only do you take time stacking, you then take even more if you have to reset. Then if you get Recruiter again you start stacking all over again.
Let's just say it's great as a joke, not great as much else.
Recruiter repeat shuffles could easily add an hour onto the length of a tournament over the course of a day. Could get obnoxious. Second Sunrise was banned in Modern for that reason, though I don't know if the DCI would ban a card for the same reason in legacy.
Even if a card from that list did break into tier one, it wouldn't be a problem. Entomb's unbanning spawned a tier one deck, and (almost) no one complained.
Yea because a format composed of only combo and midrange is such a fun format to play *cough*Modern*cough*
Affinity is Tier 1 in Modern, and it is an aggro deck. And UR Delver made it to the semifinals of last weekend's GP Prague. WUR Control has been doing well online. Merfolk has been doing well. The only difference in archetype diversity (if one classifies the archetypes as Aggro, Control, Combo, Tempo, Midrange, and Ramp) between Modern and Legacy is that Modern has more aggro and ramp and less tempo. Both formats don't have a large amount of control decks, and both are defined by combo and midrange (and tempo for Legacy).
Yea because a format composed of only combo and midrange is such a fun format to play *cough*Modern*cough*
My mistake, there are actually a couple tempo decks in the mix too.
If we look at the top sixteen we see pure aggro and control there as well. When we are talking about being "fun to play", we can't just look at the top eight! The vast majority of games happen before the top eight - most attendees aren't even part of the top eight. If you lay this tournament your fun and diversity is affected by which decks you face - not by whether or to those decks go to make top eight.
Usually a deck which makes top 16 could well have made top eight with just a little more luck along the way (better match-ups, better draws, etc). You don't make top sixteen by being a bad deck that is not relevant to the meta.
Edit - this is a banned list discussion, not a "is the format fun" discussion. If we see eight different archetypes in the top eight, it's hard to make a case that any one of these decks needs to be arbitrarily reigned in by the banhammer. I'd like to see Prison and linear Aggro in the top tier, but I don't think we should start banning cards to orchestrate that!
Also, I assume you are no longer on an anti TNN campaign? There were more Goyfs than TNNs in that top eight, and as may DRSs as Delvers. There was only one S&T deck. What exactly do you want to see banned in order to "fix" this horribly unfun format?
I assume you are no longer on an anti TNN campaign? There were more Goyfs than TNNs in that top eight, and as may DRSs as Delvers. There was only one S&T deck. What exactly do you want to see banned in order to "fix" this horribly unfun format?
No I still think it needs to be banned, I'm just not wasting my time arguing with you about it. It puts a large strain on pretty much every deck that wants to attack on the ground, its existence will probably prevent pure aggro from every existing again at the top levels in Legacy, its the final nail in the coffin. (As an aside I don't consider Burn to be pure aggro because its really not, it exists in a weird world where you mostly ignore what your opponent and just dome them until they are dead. It behaves quite a bit like a combo in some respects and folds to hate much like combo does.)
Plus you're pretty blind if you can't see that TNN has warped the format, just read the top8 profiles from the Indianapolis open, everyone said they were playing TNN or had built their deck in such a way that it didn't care about TNN. Now maybe it hasn't warped the format to warrant banning at this point but I think its pretty clear that it has definitely warped the format and its not in my opinion for the better.
Also Jund sank like a rock last month so just because it's made one top 8 this month so far doesn't mean that its not still bad. Go look at TC Decks if you want to look at some results and see that Midrange plummeted last month.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Plenty of decks take care of TNN by ignoring it (combo), keeping it from being cast (counters), having it become sacrificed (black variants), or having it discarded (one of many decks that decide to run Hymn, IOK, or Thoughtseize). If Merfolk/Fish needs to try to bump Vial to 3 in order to drop their TNN, then maybe more artifact hate needs to be boarded to remove Vial before it becomes relevant. If that's the case, that's not that big of a deal.
No I still think it needs to be banned, I'm just not wasting my time arguing with you about it. It puts a large strain on pretty much every deck that wants to attack on the ground, its existence will probably prevent pure aggro from every existing again at the top levels in Legacy, its the final nail in the coffin. (As an aside I don't consider Burn to be pure aggro because its really not, it exists in a weird world where you mostly ignore what your opponent and just dome them until they are dead. It behaves quite a bit like a combo in some respects and folds to hate much like combo does.)
Plus you're pretty blind if you can't see that TNN has warped the format, just read the top8 profiles from the Indianapolis open, everyone said they were playing TNN or had built their deck in such a way that it didn't care about TNN. Now maybe it hasn't warped the format to warrant banning at this point but I think its pretty clear that it has definitely warped the format and its not in my opinion for the better.
Also Jund sank like a rock last month so just because it's made one top 8 this month so far doesn't mean that its not still bad. Go look at TC Decks if you want to look at some results and see that Midrange plummeted last month.
No one cares about tournaments under 100 people, that's the problem with TC.
Obviously we need to give everything cockatrice like deathtouch.
Plenty of decks take care of TNN by ignoring it (combo), keeping it from being cast (counters), having it become sacrificed (black variants), or having it discarded (one of many decks that decide to run Hymn, IOK, or Thoughtseize). If Merfolk/Fish needs to try to bump Vial to 3 in order to drop their TNN, then maybe more artifact hate needs to be boarded to remove Vial before it becomes relevant. If that's the case, that's not that big of a deal.
As a fish player, I tend to hardcast Progenfish and them keep Vial open for PI or lords. Also the deck is shifting off Wasteland and moving to Cavern of Souls just so it can do things like this more efficiently.
As a fish player, I tend to hardcast Progenfish and them keep Vial open for PI or lords. Also the deck is shifting off Wasteland and moving to Cavern of Souls just so it can do things like this more efficiently.
Fair point. Even so, taking care of Vial is still relevant. Less creatures usually means smaller TNN.
Just out of curiosity: could someone show me a decklist that makes mind's desire really broken? I don't doubt it's banning, I just couldn't seem to think of how it would be so broken as to be on the banned list and wanted to see some examples of why.
Just out of curiosity: could someone show me a decklist that makes mind's desire really broken? I don't doubt it's banning, I just couldn't seem to think of how it would be so broken as to be on the banned list and wanted to see some examples of why.
I was thinking of a Doomsday decklist that could abuse it by hitting storm count 4, probing mind's desire off the top, then casting Mind's desire for 3-4 storm count and casting huge guys as well as a time walk to attempt to win. Or cast laboratory maniac with mind's desire to try and win after doomsdaying.
Also, could High tide abuse mind's desire in such a way that it would win a lot of games? Maybe it could happen
EDIT: wait, just figured it out.
If you keep casting mind's desire off mind's desire, it results in an infinite, unstoppable loop(unless you have flusterstorm). And with time spiral and its kin, you have an unstoppable loop of not milling yourself. And when you hit a storm card(or something like that), you cast the storm card for a lot.Here's a vintage decklist if you want to try it out
That's basically what twiddle desire was, high tide-less high tide. Instead if in tapping land it untaps grim monolith or gilded lotus and generated mana that way. It did run tinker and mystical tutor back then and I also personally remember building it again later with high tide.
The problem now is why doomsday in lab man or storm with desire in the deck when they are strong lists already. Same with high tide.
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Shahrazad is not banned because it takes so impractically long that it often leads to draws.
First, I also said logistics. Second, wizards disagrees with you. Mind's desire, IMO, is banned in part because the resolution chain is indefinite and perpetual. If you're telling me the deck can "go off" and that forcing a draw means you "failed at winning" I need only point you to Surgical Extraction or other "give me your deck and exile your win conditions" cards. I've seen 30 minute high tide matches where they can't end the game despite having near 200 mana and 40 cards in hand; simply because the opponent screwed up their deck enough.
Mind's desire can legitimately stall for indefinite periods of time while not getting a judge called on them (or at least, not getting a warning/ban.) Why? Because it's resolution implies a complicated mess of literally 10, 30, 50, or more other cards; many of those which can be geared to recycle your deck.
I was thinking of a Doomsday decklist that could abuse it by hitting storm count 4, probing mind's desire off the top, then casting Mind's desire for 3-4 storm count and casting huge guys as well as a time walk to attempt to win. Or cast laboratory maniac with mind's desire to try and win after doomsdaying.
The classic pile is DD into Desire into Beacon of Destruction. There may be better options now.
No it doesn't, play with Mind's Desire if you don't know how broken it is. I can't believe people are discussing Bargain and Desire.
I'm not sure where you are going with this. I have many friends that make those same claims. "Oh a watch a lot of streams. I know all the ins and outs." Etc. They are not playing the format however. They are regurgitating what others tell them. If you don't play the format as you stated, your opinion has no relevance. It carries no weight. Playing "kitchen table legacy" also isn't the same, but at least it is better.
Standard doesn't compare to legacy. We have a new guy getting into legacy right now. He doesn't understand decks that don't deal in the red zone. Counterspells on his turn one blow his mind. What's a combo deck? That is a big gloss over but I hope you follow what I'm saying there.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Show and Tell is a stupidly powerful card, but so are Lion's Eye Diamond, Entomb, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and True-Name Nemesis. Show and Tell is neither overly oppressive (see Mental Misstep) nor overly represented in top tables (see Survival of the Fittest) and IMO doesn't need a ban. Cards are banned in Legacy for the previously mentioned reasons, not because they are powerful or unfun.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
If you think these decks are breaking the format probably you should continue to not play legacy; you wouldn't like it. Legacy now (and the last couple years) is about as balanced and divers as MTG has ever been in any format - probably more so. If you think combo decks which have many bad matches and do not dominate the top eight are broken, this just isn't the format for you.
Yesterday marked the third consecutive SCG one with at least one Jud deck in the top eight. Maybe we can finally drop the notion that TNN is "forcing out" non-blue midrange decks?
There were eight different decks in that final - four midange decks and four combo decks. Seems healthy to me!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Banned:
Imperial Seal (2005)
Flash (2007)
Shahrazad (2007)
Time Vault (2008)
Mystical Tutor (2010)
Survival of the Fittest (2010)
Mental Mistep (2011)
Unbanned:
Mind over Matter (2007)
Replenish (2007)
Dream Halls (2009)
Entomb (2009)
Metalworker (2009)
Grim Monolith (2010)
Illusionary Mask (2010)
Time Spiral (2010)
Land Tax (2012)
I don't think any cards will be Banned in the up coming B/R update.
Cards that can be unbanned in my opinion are:
Black Vise (little impact on Vintage since unrestricted and not that powerful)
Earthcraft (not great without Squirrel's Nest and is that a better combo than elves, SnT, ANT, TES, Reanimator, Helm, Painter, etc.)
Goblin Recruiter (Food Chain Goblins combo can be stopped easily and not a better combo that those listed under Earthcraft)
Mind Twist (little impact in Vintage since unrestricted and Hymm is better)
Mind's Desire (probably not that much better than current storm decks, Time Spiral was unbanned to little affect on the metagame. The format can adjust to beat storm easily)
All of these cards have been on the Banned list since the formats inception. Legacy is very different that it was in 2004. Cards that were oppressive years ago will not have the same impact today. Just look at all the unbannings they have done! None of those cards are in a Tier 1 deck (or arguably Tier 2). I don't think any of these will make waves in the current Legacy environment. Yes they will be tested, but they won't break into tier 1.
Thumb twiddle search+shuffle time would breach tolerance levels with deck-stacking tanks.
Let's just say it's great as a joke, not great as much else.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Even if a card from that list did break into tier one, it wouldn't be a problem. Entomb's unbanning spawned a tier one deck, and (almost) no one complained.
Yea because a format composed of only combo and midrange is such a fun format to play *cough*Modern*cough*
Affinity is Tier 1 in Modern, and it is an aggro deck. And UR Delver made it to the semifinals of last weekend's GP Prague. WUR Control has been doing well online. Merfolk has been doing well. The only difference in archetype diversity (if one classifies the archetypes as Aggro, Control, Combo, Tempo, Midrange, and Ramp) between Modern and Legacy is that Modern has more aggro and ramp and less tempo. Both formats don't have a large amount of control decks, and both are defined by combo and midrange (and tempo for Legacy).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
My mistake, there are actually a couple tempo decks in the mix too.
If we look at the top sixteen we see pure aggro and control there as well. When we are talking about being "fun to play", we can't just look at the top eight! The vast majority of games happen before the top eight - most attendees aren't even part of the top eight. If you lay this tournament your fun and diversity is affected by which decks you face - not by whether or to those decks go to make top eight.
Usually a deck which makes top 16 could well have made top eight with just a little more luck along the way (better match-ups, better draws, etc). You don't make top sixteen by being a bad deck that is not relevant to the meta.
Edit - this is a banned list discussion, not a "is the format fun" discussion. If we see eight different archetypes in the top eight, it's hard to make a case that any one of these decks needs to be arbitrarily reigned in by the banhammer. I'd like to see Prison and linear Aggro in the top tier, but I don't think we should start banning cards to orchestrate that!
Also, I assume you are no longer on an anti TNN campaign? There were more Goyfs than TNNs in that top eight, and as may DRSs as Delvers. There was only one S&T deck. What exactly do you want to see banned in order to "fix" this horribly unfun format?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
No I still think it needs to be banned, I'm just not wasting my time arguing with you about it. It puts a large strain on pretty much every deck that wants to attack on the ground, its existence will probably prevent pure aggro from every existing again at the top levels in Legacy, its the final nail in the coffin. (As an aside I don't consider Burn to be pure aggro because its really not, it exists in a weird world where you mostly ignore what your opponent and just dome them until they are dead. It behaves quite a bit like a combo in some respects and folds to hate much like combo does.)
Plus you're pretty blind if you can't see that TNN has warped the format, just read the top8 profiles from the Indianapolis open, everyone said they were playing TNN or had built their deck in such a way that it didn't care about TNN. Now maybe it hasn't warped the format to warrant banning at this point but I think its pretty clear that it has definitely warped the format and its not in my opinion for the better.
Also Jund sank like a rock last month so just because it's made one top 8 this month so far doesn't mean that its not still bad. Go look at TC Decks if you want to look at some results and see that Midrange plummeted last month.
No one cares about tournaments under 100 people, that's the problem with TC.
Obviously we need to give everything cockatrice like deathtouch.
As a fish player, I tend to hardcast Progenfish and them keep Vial open for PI or lords. Also the deck is shifting off Wasteland and moving to Cavern of Souls just so it can do things like this more efficiently.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Fair point. Even so, taking care of Vial is still relevant. Less creatures usually means smaller TNN.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I found a list, but that deck was also running 4-of tinker.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I was thinking of a Doomsday decklist that could abuse it by hitting storm count 4, probing mind's desire off the top, then casting Mind's desire for 3-4 storm count and casting huge guys as well as a time walk to attempt to win. Or cast laboratory maniac with mind's desire to try and win after doomsdaying.
Also, could High tide abuse mind's desire in such a way that it would win a lot of games? Maybe it could happen
EDIT: wait, just figured it out.
If you keep casting mind's desire off mind's desire, it results in an infinite, unstoppable loop(unless you have flusterstorm). And with time spiral and its kin, you have an unstoppable loop of not milling yourself. And when you hit a storm card(or something like that), you cast the storm card for a lot.Here's a vintage decklist if you want to try it out
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
The problem now is why doomsday in lab man or storm with desire in the deck when they are strong lists already. Same with high tide.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
First, I also said logistics. Second, wizards disagrees with you. Mind's desire, IMO, is banned in part because the resolution chain is indefinite and perpetual. If you're telling me the deck can "go off" and that forcing a draw means you "failed at winning" I need only point you to Surgical Extraction or other "give me your deck and exile your win conditions" cards. I've seen 30 minute high tide matches where they can't end the game despite having near 200 mana and 40 cards in hand; simply because the opponent screwed up their deck enough.
Mind's desire can legitimately stall for indefinite periods of time while not getting a judge called on them (or at least, not getting a warning/ban.) Why? Because it's resolution implies a complicated mess of literally 10, 30, 50, or more other cards; many of those which can be geared to recycle your deck.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
The classic pile is DD into Desire into Beacon of Destruction. There may be better options now.
[180 classic cube]