In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
If they ban Tarmogoyf, I'm totally going to go Al Kaida on them.
In serious formats like Legacy we wouldn't have this kind of conversation.
True the legacy thread just keeps trying to ban Show and Tell because the Delver players don't like playing against it.
More to the point you can't really ban anything from Jund to lower its numbers. Once it stops being the 'best' deck all the people who just default to it will switch to the new best deck. Let's be honest most people, including myself, don't have time to test out every deck and every possibility. It's just easier to see what is best and practice with that one deck playing against a gauntlet.
If they ban Tarmogoyf, I'm totally going to go Al Kaida on them.
In serious formats like Legacy we wouldn't have this kind of conversation.
And you wonder why I challenge you when you post dribble like that in a Modern thread.
In 2 short lines you have more or less said Modern is not a serious format to you, and you prefer how Legacy handles things, yet you continue to
post in the Modern forums.
If some are talking about the ban, why get angry. We have already established everyone has a different out look for the format and desires for bans/unbans.
What happens if Wotc decides to ban Goyf and the popularity of the format explodes because of it? Will you bad mouth the decision? Will you continue to play the format?
Where combo is watered down to suit the format creators' tastes, where control is nearly extinct, where aggro is limited to Affinity (and occasionally fish), and where midrange is the predominant name of the game, why not play the best individual cards possible in the best midrange shell available?
When people say control is "extinct" I'm reminded of all the times I face IoK, Thought Sieze, Lilliana, Abrubt Decay/Malestrom pulse and DRS/Ooze from Jund. While its not exactly the prototypical "blue counter" control, Jund very much controls the early game.
I will not go into the burn heavy delver decks that attempt to control the board state as well.
While I understand some people want to play a control deck based on counters, its not an entirely accurate defintion of control.
With that said, a strong blue counter deck will, in my opinion, make the format more linear with less diversity. Mid-Rage would cease to exist and unfortuantely for the counter players, mid range is one of the most popular deck types.
I digress, I say if you want to play a deck with strong counter magic, play legacy. From what I hear they have some strong cards that would suit those taste.
When people say control is "extinct" I'm reminded of all the times I face IoK, Thought Sieze, Lilliana, Abrubt Decay/Malestrom pulse and DRS/Ooze from Jund. While its not exactly the prototypical "blue counter" control, Jund very much controls the eary game.
I will not go into the burn heavy delver decks that attempt to control the board state as well.
While I understand some people want to play a control deck based on counters, its not an entirely accurate defintion of control.
With that said, a strong blue counter deck will, in my opinion, make the format more linear with less diversity. Mid-Rage would cease to exist and unfortuantely for the counter players, mid range is one of the most popular deck types.
I digress, I say if you want to play a deck with strong counter magic, play legacy. From what I hear they have some strong cards that would suit those taste.
You have to remember that when people say they want control to be better what they want it draw-go to be better. It just doesn't sound good to phrase it that way.
I literally voted for everything BUT: Umezawa's Jitte and Skullclamp as those cards are ridiculously above everything else on the list up to and including JTMS, however most of the rest of the list is utter garbage that should have never been banned in the first place.
Do you honestly think that Mental Misstep would be okay? Also, there is something called the turn 4 rule in Modern. If it was removed, we'd have Turn 2 Wins: The Format.
This is going to be one of my "Comparing Legacy and Modern" posts. If you do not want to read it, this is fair warning.
I have been thinking about the differences in the two formats. About how the formats react around what they have to play with. What I have seen leads me to think in this way:
Control in Legacy is Reactive.
Cards like Daze, Force, Wasteland and Brainstorm mean that you do not care so much to reach out and take something from your opponent. It is eaiser to play your own game and then react when you plan is in danger. The tools in the format suit this style of play too. Its not so much that "Draw, Go" is a style that suits people who play, only that you can wait on your opponent to act and then in response, react.
Control in Modern is Proactive.
While cards like Shadow of Doubt do let one React to plays, most of Moderns control is done in a proactive way. Control is normally a hand or board affair with small amounts of stack interaction. Players tend to try and remove threats before they are a threat. Lightning Bolt, Thoughtsieze, hell even Slaughter Games all play into this style.
Control exists in this format, but it is more akin to the Pox decks of old than it is something like Stax or Counter Top. Personally, from all my complaining when I first started getting into Modern until now, I have come to see this as a very different but useful affair. The trick is not to look at Legacy and think "I want what they have" in control style decks. No what you should do if you want control is look at Mono Black and 8rack decks. You have control here guys, its just not blue.
Control exists in this format, but it is more akin to the Pox decks of old than it is something like Stax or Counter Top. Personally, from all my complaining when I first started getting into Modern until now, I have come to see this as a very different but useful affair. The trick is not to look at Legacy and think "I want what they have" in control style decks. No what you should do if you want control is look at Mono Black and 8rack decks. You have control here guys, its just not blue.
Dice.
This^
Modern is never going to have anything like CounterTop or legacy RUG Delver. People need to stop thinking WotC is going to change their new outlook on the game and reprint FoW, Daze, Wasteland, etc, or start shifting the power to noncreature spells.
the artifact lands wouldn't hurt anything, the current Affinity doesn't even use them, but I would love the red one for galvanic blast without diluting my Burn
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This is going to be one of my "Comparing Legacy and Modern" posts. If you do not want to read it, this is fair warning.
I have been thinking about the differences in the two formats. About how the formats react around what they have to play with. What I have seen leads me to think in this way:
Control in Legacy is Reactive.
Cards like Daze, Force, Wasteland and Brainstorm mean that you do not care so much to reach out and take something from your opponent. It is eaiser to play your own game and then react when you plan is in danger. The tools in the format suit this style of play too. Its not so much that "Draw, Go" is a style that suits people who play, only that you can wait on your opponent to act and then in response, react.
Control in Modern is Proactive.
While cards like Shadow of Doubt do let one React to plays, most of Moderns control is done in a proactive way. Control is normally a hand or board affair with small amounts of stack interaction. Players tend to try and remove threats before they are a threat. Lightning Bolt, Thoughtsieze, hell even Slaughter Games all play into this style.
Control exists in this format, but it is more akin to the Pox decks of old than it is something like Stax or Counter Top. Personally, from all my complaining when I first started getting into Modern until now, I have come to see this as a very different but useful affair. The trick is not to look at Legacy and think "I want what they have" in control style decks. No what you should do if you want control is look at Mono Black and 8rack decks. You have control here guys, its just not blue.
Dice.
ok so 2 things
1) I'm eating home made cookies and they are delicious
2) this is an awesome post. Modern never will be, nor should it try to be legacy. It is totally different, is played different and is awesome in its own right. I feel like the "control" cards of Legacy let it be much more of a "solitaire" format, which is awesome, but different. The lower power level of control in Modern forces it to be more interactive on the board, instead of in players heads against each other.
the artifact lands wouldn't hurt anything, the current Affinity doesn't even use them, but I would love the red one for galvanic blast without diluting my Burn
Threw this list together in a few minutes, with a little minor tweaking it could be stronger then anything else in modern right now... Tell me again how artifact lands don't have any impact on the format?
This is going to be one of my "Comparing Legacy and Modern" posts. If you do not want to read it, this is fair warning.
I have been thinking about the differences in the two formats. About how the formats react around what they have to play with. What I have seen leads me to think in this way:
Control in Legacy is Reactive.
Cards like Daze, Force, Wasteland and Brainstorm mean that you do not care so much to reach out and take something from your opponent. It is eaiser to play your own game and then react when you plan is in danger. The tools in the format suit this style of play too. Its not so much that "Draw, Go" is a style that suits people who play, only that you can wait on your opponent to act and then in response, react.
Control in Modern is Proactive.
While cards like Shadow of Doubt do let one React to plays, most of Moderns control is done in a proactive way. Control is normally a hand or board affair with small amounts of stack interaction. Players tend to try and remove threats before they are a threat. Lightning Bolt, Thoughtsieze, hell even Slaughter Games all play into this style.
Control exists in this format, but it is more akin to the Pox decks of old than it is something like Stax or Counter Top. Personally, from all my complaining when I first started getting into Modern until now, I have come to see this as a very different but useful affair. The trick is not to look at Legacy and think "I want what they have" in control style decks. No what you should do if you want control is look at Mono Black and 8rack decks. You have control here guys, its just not blue.
Dice.
Okay, where are all of these non-blue control decks (do not say Jund, it is Midrange, not control)? They don't seem to be much of the meta.
Is not control. It's a ramp deck. Playing 8 sweepers and a removal/discard planeswalker does not change it from combo/ramp to control.
A deck that seeks to control the board before landing high value threats the opponent cannot deal with fits my definition of control. What is your definition of control?
A deck that seeks to control the board before landing high value threats the opponent cannot deal with fits my definition of control. What is your definition of control?
A deck that controls the board and then lands late-game threats. If you are only trying to control the board for 2-3 turns, they aren't late-game threats. Also, RG Tron plays 8 sweepers, 4 planeswalkers, 1 late-game finisher, and 1 repeatable tutor. The rest aren't control cards. I'd expect a control deck to have more than 14 control cards.
Jund is an Aggro Control deck too. Call it midrange if you like, its plan is to control the board and your hand before they break you.
Control in this format is weaved into a large amount of the decks that play it. The issue is not that control is not present, its that people do not look at the control as a dedicated deck. The reason is that since you do not have the Reaction that you would get in legacy, control in Modern plays a co staring role to aggro.
I know I am going to get told off for saying that a deck like Jund plays control, but really, a deck with 6 discard spells, at lest another 6 board control spells and Lily, its a control deck playing the Midrange game.
Jund is an Aggro Control deck too. Call it midrange if you like, its plan is to control the board and your hand before they break you.
Control in this format is weaved into a large amount of the decks that play it. The issue is not that control is not present, its that people do not look at the control as a dedicated deck. The reason is that since you do not have the Reaction that you would get in legacy, control in Modern plays a co staring role to aggro.
I know I am going to get told off for saying that a deck like Jund plays control, but really, a deck with 6 discard spells, at lest another 6 board control spells and Lily, its a control deck playing the Midrange game.
The thing that the format is missing is a sizeable amount of pure control. That's what people want unbans for.
Is not control. It's a ramp deck. Playing 8 sweepers and a removal/discard planeswalker does not change it from combo/ramp to control.
I assume he's reffering to mono U tron, which does run a heafty amount of CA and counters as well as some bounce/board wipes. Uses a grindy win condition such as mind slaver loop or sundering titan.
That said I'm pretty sure Mono U tron is the closest thing to a "top tier" draw go style control deck in modern right now... and it's not that good.
I assume he's reffering to mono U tron, which does run a heafty amount of CA and counters as well as some bounce/board wipes. Uses a grindy win condition such as mind slaver loop or sundering titan.
That said I'm pretty sure Mono U tron is the closest thing to a "top tier" draw go style control deck in modern right now... and it's not that good.
I said nonblue control decks, so it couldn't have been Mono-U Tron. Also, WUR Control is Tier 1.
the artifact lands wouldn't hurt anything, the current Affinity doesn't even use them, but I would love the red one for galvanic blast without diluting my Burn
Uh, what "current Affinity" do you refer to? Current Affinity in Modern doesn't use them, true, but that's because they're banned. Might as well say Skullclamp can come off because current Affinity doesn't use them.
If you're trying to appeal to Legacy, Legacy Affinity does use the artifact lands. So I have no idea what this "current Affinity" that does not use the artifact lands you refer to is.
I said nonblue control decks, so it couldn't have been Mono-U Tron. Also, WUR Control is Tier 1.
My bad then~ didn't see "non-U"
There is no showing for any top tier 1-2 control decks that don't run blue.
@Dice_Bag: There are 3 major arctypes in magic: Aggro, Control, Combo. Things such as Tempo or Midrange fall into hybrid categories of these 3 arctypes. While I understand where you're coming from saying theres alot of control "elements" in existing decks, you cannot say there is any true pure OG Control present in the current Modern Cardpool.
The tools are there, but the card engines are gone. Control really needs things like JTMS, Ponder, Preordain or AV to keep going... Right now the 1 for 1 draw-go style decks aren't viable because there's no way to recover from an opponent that just dropped a 2 for 1 card.
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In serious formats like Legacy we wouldn't have this kind of conversation.
Warning given for attempts to bait arguments. ~lantern
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
True the legacy thread just keeps trying to ban Show and Tell because the Delver players don't like playing against it.
More to the point you can't really ban anything from Jund to lower its numbers. Once it stops being the 'best' deck all the people who just default to it will switch to the new best deck. Let's be honest most people, including myself, don't have time to test out every deck and every possibility. It's just easier to see what is best and practice with that one deck playing against a gauntlet.
And you wonder why I challenge you when you post dribble like that in a Modern thread.
In 2 short lines you have more or less said Modern is not a serious format to you, and you prefer how Legacy handles things, yet you continue to
post in the Modern forums.
If some are talking about the ban, why get angry. We have already established everyone has a different out look for the format and desires for bans/unbans.
What happens if Wotc decides to ban Goyf and the popularity of the format explodes because of it? Will you bad mouth the decision? Will you continue to play the format?
When people say control is "extinct" I'm reminded of all the times I face IoK, Thought Sieze, Lilliana, Abrubt Decay/Malestrom pulse and DRS/Ooze from Jund. While its not exactly the prototypical "blue counter" control, Jund very much controls the early game.
I will not go into the burn heavy delver decks that attempt to control the board state as well.
While I understand some people want to play a control deck based on counters, its not an entirely accurate defintion of control.
With that said, a strong blue counter deck will, in my opinion, make the format more linear with less diversity. Mid-Rage would cease to exist and unfortuantely for the counter players, mid range is one of the most popular deck types.
I digress, I say if you want to play a deck with strong counter magic, play legacy. From what I hear they have some strong cards that would suit those taste.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
You have to remember that when people say they want control to be better what they want it draw-go to be better. It just doesn't sound good to phrase it that way.
Do you honestly think that Mental Misstep would be okay? Also, there is something called the turn 4 rule in Modern. If it was removed, we'd have Turn 2 Wins: The Format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I have been thinking about the differences in the two formats. About how the formats react around what they have to play with. What I have seen leads me to think in this way:
Control in Legacy is Reactive.
Cards like Daze, Force, Wasteland and Brainstorm mean that you do not care so much to reach out and take something from your opponent. It is eaiser to play your own game and then react when you plan is in danger. The tools in the format suit this style of play too. Its not so much that "Draw, Go" is a style that suits people who play, only that you can wait on your opponent to act and then in response, react.
Control in Modern is Proactive.
While cards like Shadow of Doubt do let one React to plays, most of Moderns control is done in a proactive way. Control is normally a hand or board affair with small amounts of stack interaction. Players tend to try and remove threats before they are a threat. Lightning Bolt, Thoughtsieze, hell even Slaughter Games all play into this style.
Control exists in this format, but it is more akin to the Pox decks of old than it is something like Stax or Counter Top. Personally, from all my complaining when I first started getting into Modern until now, I have come to see this as a very different but useful affair. The trick is not to look at Legacy and think "I want what they have" in control style decks. No what you should do if you want control is look at Mono Black and 8rack decks. You have control here guys, its just not blue.
Dice.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Modern is similar, except Delver players keep trying to ban Deathrite Shaman because they don't like playing against it.
Clearly the best solution is to round up all Delver players and give them their own format.
This^
Modern is never going to have anything like CounterTop or legacy RUG Delver. People need to stop thinking WotC is going to change their new outlook on the game and reprint FoW, Daze, Wasteland, etc, or start shifting the power to noncreature spells.
I havent laughed out loud from a post in a long time.
Wild nactal could make aggro a thing again, which would be good.
Golgari Grave Troll was banned before DRS and Scooze, I think he could be entirely fair and give graveyard decks a chance.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
ok so 2 things
1) I'm eating home made cookies and they are delicious
2) this is an awesome post. Modern never will be, nor should it try to be legacy. It is totally different, is played different and is awesome in its own right. I feel like the "control" cards of Legacy let it be much more of a "solitaire" format, which is awesome, but different. The lower power level of control in Modern forces it to be more interactive on the board, instead of in players heads against each other.
UWRMiraclesRWU
Modern
UWRControlRWU
Standard
Ummm no...
Trade Thread
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Signal Pest
4 Memnite
4 Steel Overseer
1 Master of Etherium
4 Thoughtcast
2 Galvanic Blast
2 Shrapnel Blast
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
Threw this list together in a few minutes, with a little minor tweaking it could be stronger then anything else in modern right now... Tell me again how artifact lands don't have any impact on the format?
Okay, where are all of these non-blue control decks (do not say Jund, it is Midrange, not control)? They don't seem to be much of the meta.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Tron.
Is not control. It's a ramp deck. Playing 8 sweepers and a removal/discard planeswalker does not change it from combo/ramp to control.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
A deck that seeks to control the board before landing high value threats the opponent cannot deal with fits my definition of control. What is your definition of control?
A deck that controls the board and then lands late-game threats. If you are only trying to control the board for 2-3 turns, they aren't late-game threats. Also, RG Tron plays 8 sweepers, 4 planeswalkers, 1 late-game finisher, and 1 repeatable tutor. The rest aren't control cards. I'd expect a control deck to have more than 14 control cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Control in this format is weaved into a large amount of the decks that play it. The issue is not that control is not present, its that people do not look at the control as a dedicated deck. The reason is that since you do not have the Reaction that you would get in legacy, control in Modern plays a co staring role to aggro.
I know I am going to get told off for saying that a deck like Jund plays control, but really, a deck with 6 discard spells, at lest another 6 board control spells and Lily, its a control deck playing the Midrange game.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
The thing that the format is missing is a sizeable amount of pure control. That's what people want unbans for.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I assume he's reffering to mono U tron, which does run a heafty amount of CA and counters as well as some bounce/board wipes. Uses a grindy win condition such as mind slaver loop or sundering titan.
That said I'm pretty sure Mono U tron is the closest thing to a "top tier" draw go style control deck in modern right now... and it's not that good.
I said nonblue control decks, so it couldn't have been Mono-U Tron. Also, WUR Control is Tier 1.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Uh, what "current Affinity" do you refer to? Current Affinity in Modern doesn't use them, true, but that's because they're banned. Might as well say Skullclamp can come off because current Affinity doesn't use them.
If you're trying to appeal to Legacy, Legacy Affinity does use the artifact lands. So I have no idea what this "current Affinity" that does not use the artifact lands you refer to is.
My bad then~ didn't see "non-U"
There is no showing for any top tier 1-2 control decks that don't run blue.
@Dice_Bag: There are 3 major arctypes in magic: Aggro, Control, Combo. Things such as Tempo or Midrange fall into hybrid categories of these 3 arctypes. While I understand where you're coming from saying theres alot of control "elements" in existing decks, you cannot say there is any true pure OG Control present in the current Modern Cardpool.
The tools are there, but the card engines are gone. Control really needs things like JTMS, Ponder, Preordain or AV to keep going... Right now the 1 for 1 draw-go style decks aren't viable because there's no way to recover from an opponent that just dropped a 2 for 1 card.