I know i'm a bit on the anti-variance team here, but I don't really think either gen wave or tooth and nail are good. If you're a somewhat competetant magic player, you'll realize having high cmc cards is usually a recipe for inconsistency, especially if they require fulfuilling a specific set of requirements to turn on. Genesis wave and Tooth and Nail are both overkill cards that are generally win-more, and just make your deck vulnerable to disruption. This is fine in a tier 3 meta with junk decks, but in any meta with a proper amount of thoughtseize, mana leak, and cryptic command (aka any REAL modern meta) you're better off playing a more consistent list that doesnt scoop to a light amount of disruption.
Honestly, they both suck when referring to wave and tooth and nail, and not much else will convince me otherwise. Just play good creatures & primal command, I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to realize this. If you ever need to go the overkill route, you already have primeval titan, or sylvan scrying + kessig wolf run for that route. Event he primal command loop is typically good enough to go over the top when you have the requisite mana, but meh, I suppose players would rather be flashy than consistent.
Not to be a dick, but can you prove your statements with results? If one build is better than another then there should be the results to back it up. I'm fairly sure that the decks that have put up results on MTGO have leaned on Genesis Wave. I'm open to alternate builds, but I'd want to see the results that say otherwise
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
If you're not playing this deck to do huge smashy things, I don't know why you're playing this archetype really. I mean, is Nykthos really even contributing that much when you're topping out your curve at 6 mana for Prime Time or Big Garruk? Is simply sticking a bunch of cheap hard to deal with creatures enough?
Nykthos Green's strength is racing into fatties and slamming out big sorceries protected by Boseiju. It's Timmy's pride and joy, plain and simple. Flashy fun stuff is the reason to be playing this deck in my opinion. It's not overkill, it is the goal. If you fal that goal, you still have the grindy creature base to fall back on. You're essentially playing the same thing, mostly weak to the same attacks and defenses, minus the potential to sweep the game in one big turn. I agree with what you've said about standing on the back of a more resilient creature base, but I fail to see where you're gaining anything by replacing a playset of a powerful win condition with more speedbump creatures.
Nykthos Wave/Nail is a really fun FNM/DE deck, but I can't realistically see it (in any of it's forms) being tier 1. I think most people will agree that the deck's strengths are in it's explosive blowout potential, not playing a grindy creature based game. If you can protect and stick a Genesis Wave for x=6 (which seems to be the consensus for a game winning play), you can Entwine a Tooth and nail and win on the spot. That's where I feel I prefer to be right now.
Just my opinions on the matter. I'll eat my words if I start seeing Nykthos Green start placing without topping out on fat sorcery wins, but I doubt that is going to happen.
One advantage of Wave over Tooth is that it lets you set up to get around a lot of corner cards in the format. For example, Emrakul + Urabrask still loses to Ensnaring Bridge. However, if you Wave for 9, then 15, then 22, you've probably got access to Witness getting Primal Command to get rid of it. You can certainly run Terastodon to get around that stuff, but then you're still loading up on a lot of cards to solve problems that can just be answered by the spells you've already got.
If you're playing Tooth with Craterhoofs, I'm almost completely sure that the correct Tooth is for Hoof and Phyrexian Metamorph instead of two Hoofs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write a free, no-BS, no-ads newsletter for my site with weekly MTG Financial content. When you sign up, you'll get our ebook with five articles about speculating and trading Magic cards.
If you're playing Tooth with Craterhoofs, I'm almost completely sure that the correct Tooth is for Hoof and Phyrexian Metamorph instead of two Hoofs.
I am not a rules guy, but wouldn't the Craterhoof Behemoth and Phyrexian Metamorph enter the battlefield at the same time, which would not allow you to copy Craterhoof with your Metamorph?
If they enter at the same time you cannot copy the hoof i can confirm you that
You are right and I am wrong on this.
Kiki-Jiki is a possible alternative.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write a free, no-BS, no-ads newsletter for my site with weekly MTG Financial content. When you sign up, you'll get our ebook with five articles about speculating and trading Magic cards.
Why are you trying to get around running two Craterhoof Behemoth's with Phyrexian Metamorph or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? At least if you draw the Behemoth, you can still hard cast it... and you might even be able to swing for lethal with just one copy depending on the board state. Drawing a Kiki-Jiki or Metamorph could very well be a dead draw.
I like what his sideboard offers from GW. I'm not really sure I'm into KotR, and it seems he's kind of heavy on fetches to pump her up. I like running the 4 Verdant Catacombs to thin my deck a little, especially while I was playing Genesis Wave, but that seems a little excessive. I guess she makes for a good turn 2 play, that can quickly turn into a big-ish attacker, but i think I'd rather have Predator Ooze as a 3 drop. Blocks well, can be a good attacker in the right situation, and offers devotion as good as it gets in the 3 slot. Seems to want to just stick a lot of small creatures to the field quickly and slam a Craterhoof.
Seems like he has an issue with decks that play removal... Like, the good ones? KotR works in that it consolidates fetching shrines with putting a creature on the field, but I'm not convinced it is where this deck wants to go.
Anyway, as for the g wave convo... It is a Timmy deck, however, it beats soul sisters regularly so I don't think it's a tier 3 deck, whatever that means. P command is where my testing is taking me, along with tooth and nail. I think the deck needs resilient devotion targets along with card draw. Basically CA is where we need to go.
I like what his sideboard offers from GW. I'm not really sure I'm into KotR, and it seems he's kind of heavy on fetches to pump her up. I like running the 4 Verdant Catacombs to thin my deck a little, especially while I was playing Genesis Wave, but that seems a little excessive. I guess she makes for a good turn 2 play, that can quickly turn into a big-ish attacker, but i think I'd rather have Predator Ooze as a 3 drop. Blocks well, can be a good attacker in the right situation, and offers devotion as good as it gets in the 3 slot. Seems to want to just stick a lot of small creatures to the field quickly and slam a Craterhoof.
I think the KotRs are in there for Nykthos fetching more than anything. With DRS running around I don't expect KotR to get too big but it's pretty handy if it lives.
I do like the sideboard. In his interview he mentions that the deck is weak to Twin and UWR type decks, and that he doesn't really have a SB plan for it in the current configuration, so stuff like Defense Grid might be good for inclusion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
Seems like he has an issue with decks that play removal... Like, the good ones? KotR works in that it consolidates fetching shrines with putting a creature on the field, but I'm not convinced it is where this deck wants to go.
Anyway, as for the g wave convo... It is a Timmy deck, however, it beats soul sisters regularly so I don't think it's a tier 3 deck, whatever that means. P command is where my testing is taking me, along with tooth and nail. I think the deck needs resilient devotion targets along with card draw. Basically CA is where we need to go.
Kitchen Finks and Predator Ooze are resilient devotion guys. I find Selkie even lives long enough to generate devotion mana. For card draw, I have been trying Slate of Ancestry and it works pretty well. Slower than Harmonize but it runs away with the game. I feel safe fighting Jund when I can reload easily. You can also Wave it out.
I enjoy the Command loops for four turns of Fallow Earth, ending in Craterhoof with four Witnesses out. I run two but I want more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write a free, no-BS, no-ads newsletter for my site with weekly MTG Financial content. When you sign up, you'll get our ebook with five articles about speculating and trading Magic cards.
I think the KotRs are in there for Nykthos fetching more than anything. With DRS running around I don't expect KotR to get too big but it's pretty handy if it lives.
I do like the sideboard. In his interview he mentions that the deck is weak to Twin and UWR type decks, and that he doesn't really have a SB plan for it in the current configuration, so stuff like Defense Grid might be good for inclusion.
I'm a little surprised to see no Ghostly Prisons SB. I mean, are swords really that big a deal? I could easily see them coming out for Ghostly prison to protect against the combo, and any swarming strategies that may arise. I'm still a little iffy on KotR being the best option fetch up a Nykthos, though it may be a little more covert than the more typical options.By the time it's applicable I can usually at least attempt sticking a Titan, or already cast an early Sylvan Scrying.
I'm a little surprised to see no Ghostly Prisons SB. I mean, are swords really that big a deal? I could easily see them coming out for Ghostly prison to protect against the combo, and any swarming strategies that may arise. I'm still a little iffy on KotR being the best option fetch up a Nykthos, though it may be a little more covert than the more typical options.By the time it's applicable I can usually at least attempt sticking a Titan, or already cast an early Sylvan Scrying.
According to the interview, the swords were for the Jund matchup.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
Would Panglacial Wurm be a 1-of that fits into the main deck? You'd need 7 mana and a search ability, which can be done off of a fetch land. If you draw it, it's not exactly a bad creature either since it is usually a 2-turn clock. If you fetch for it, you get major card advantage.
Would Panglacial Wurm be a 1-of that fits into the main deck? You'd need 7 mana and a search ability, which can be done off of a fetch land. If you draw it, it's not exactly a bad creature either since it is usually a 2-turn clock. If you fetch for it, you get major card advantage.
The thing with the deck is that it already have several win con, Panglacial Wurm look great on paper but it doesn't bring anything to the deck at all.
Also trading consistency for raw power isn't the way to go for this deck because it's already fairly inconsistent against disruptive opponent aka mostly every archetype.
My favourite Jund sideboards are Garruk (PH) and Obstinate Baloth.
I play a quite resiliant version of the deck, that keeps landing resilient creatures (Geists and Baloths), aswell as 4 Selkies. It's really hard to run out of gass. And while their threats cap at some point, ours just get bigger and bigger. I also run 4 Witnesses, that make discard pointless.
The heavy control decks seem to fold to boil and defense grid siding, while Tron seems to be the one deck I just cant seem to beat.
My deck is basicly a very resillient mono green aggro, that can easily go on defense against faster decks (affinity, burn), where Geists and Witnesses make sure we live long enough, and forces control to hold back so long, it just runs out of answers, or mana to answer me efficiently.
My wincons are basily Garruk, a singleton kessig and two Behemoths.
Jund match up should be easy because of Harmonize, Primal Command and Eternal Witness already in the main, having Baloth in the side seal the deal.
I side in Summoning Trap against control deck no need for cute land destruction /splash more red (red splash for kessig is cool)
For Tron , Primal Command Loop and replace the Kessig + Stomping Ground with 2 Tectonic Edge. Also they have no way to stop you from casting a big Wave.. reason why I main deck Urabrask.
I dislike Craterhoof Behemoth and I feel it simply make good Wave hard to cast while casting a Wave for 6 (9) and hiting Urabrask + Titan = game.
Would Panglacial Wurm be a 1-of that fits into the main deck? You'd need 7 mana and a search ability, which can be done off of a fetch land. If you draw it, it's not exactly a bad creature either since it is usually a 2-turn clock. If you fetch for it, you get major card advantage.
Thought about the Worm, too, because it feels so bad if you have like 10 green mana open, but nothing to spend it on.
But if you draw it, it seems to be just a way too bad card for modern (slow, no protection against common removal like PtE or Maelstrom Pulse and it is not big enough to go over a bigger Goyf or Ooze without dying).
Haven't tried it out, though.
Would be glad if you tell us here if you should do some testing.
My favourite Jund sideboards are Garruk (PH) and Obstinate Baloth.
I play a quite resiliant version of the deck, that keeps landing resilient creatures (Geists and Baloths), aswell as 4 Selkies. It's really hard to run out of gass. And while their threats cap at some point, ours just get bigger and bigger. I also run 4 Witnesses, that make discard pointless.
The heavy control decks seem to fold to boil and defense grid siding, while Tron seems to be the one deck I just cant seem to beat.
My deck is basicly a very resillient mono green aggro, that can easily go on defense against faster decks (affinity, burn), where Geists and Witnesses make sure we live long enough, and forces control to hold back so long, it just runs out of answers, or mana to answer me efficiently.
My wincons are basily Garruk, a singleton kessig and two Behemoths.
How are Boil and Grid getting there? I was testing against the UWR Tempo deck from the GP this weekend and it was hard to see a board state where Boil would have helped. They have a bunch of things like Glacial Fortress and Colonnade to get right around Boil and Choke. That list also only plays two Leaks, three Cryptics and a Counterflux from the board. Makes me think that Grid is a little too narrow. If you found different results, I'd like to hear them for certain!
I like Ghost Quarter over Edge because Tron can do a host of nasty things with just three Tron lands out. If you're having issues with Tron, have you tried Beast Within? Maybe I'm using it as a crutch but it's a good catch-all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write a free, no-BS, no-ads newsletter for my site with weekly MTG Financial content. When you sign up, you'll get our ebook with five articles about speculating and trading Magic cards.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Not to be a dick, but can you prove your statements with results? If one build is better than another then there should be the results to back it up. I'm fairly sure that the decks that have put up results on MTGO have leaned on Genesis Wave. I'm open to alternate builds, but I'd want to see the results that say otherwise
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/%C4%8Cl%C3%A1nky/V%C5%A1echny%C4%8Dl%C3%A1nky/tabid/265/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4388/New-Modern-Deck--Mono-Green-Nykthos.aspx
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Nykthos Green's strength is racing into fatties and slamming out big sorceries protected by Boseiju. It's Timmy's pride and joy, plain and simple. Flashy fun stuff is the reason to be playing this deck in my opinion. It's not overkill, it is the goal. If you fal that goal, you still have the grindy creature base to fall back on. You're essentially playing the same thing, mostly weak to the same attacks and defenses, minus the potential to sweep the game in one big turn. I agree with what you've said about standing on the back of a more resilient creature base, but I fail to see where you're gaining anything by replacing a playset of a powerful win condition with more speedbump creatures.
Nykthos Wave/Nail is a really fun FNM/DE deck, but I can't realistically see it (in any of it's forms) being tier 1. I think most people will agree that the deck's strengths are in it's explosive blowout potential, not playing a grindy creature based game. If you can protect and stick a Genesis Wave for x=6 (which seems to be the consensus for a game winning play), you can Entwine a Tooth and nail and win on the spot. That's where I feel I prefer to be right now.
Just my opinions on the matter. I'll eat my words if I start seeing Nykthos Green start placing without topping out on fat sorcery wins, but I doubt that is going to happen.
If you're playing Tooth with Craterhoofs, I'm almost completely sure that the correct Tooth is for Hoof and Phyrexian Metamorph instead of two Hoofs.
I am not a rules guy, but wouldn't the Craterhoof Behemoth and Phyrexian Metamorph enter the battlefield at the same time, which would not allow you to copy Craterhoof with your Metamorph?
Cards for sale: Check them out!
You are right and I am wrong on this.
Kiki-Jiki is a possible alternative.
6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Terastodon
4 Wistful Selkie
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Tooth and Nail
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Rest in Peace
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Stony Silence
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I like what his sideboard offers from GW. I'm not really sure I'm into KotR, and it seems he's kind of heavy on fetches to pump her up. I like running the 4 Verdant Catacombs to thin my deck a little, especially while I was playing Genesis Wave, but that seems a little excessive. I guess she makes for a good turn 2 play, that can quickly turn into a big-ish attacker, but i think I'd rather have Predator Ooze as a 3 drop. Blocks well, can be a good attacker in the right situation, and offers devotion as good as it gets in the 3 slot. Seems to want to just stick a lot of small creatures to the field quickly and slam a Craterhoof.
Anyway, as for the g wave convo... It is a Timmy deck, however, it beats soul sisters regularly so I don't think it's a tier 3 deck, whatever that means. P command is where my testing is taking me, along with tooth and nail. I think the deck needs resilient devotion targets along with card draw. Basically CA is where we need to go.
I think the KotRs are in there for Nykthos fetching more than anything. With DRS running around I don't expect KotR to get too big but it's pretty handy if it lives.
I do like the sideboard. In his interview he mentions that the deck is weak to Twin and UWR type decks, and that he doesn't really have a SB plan for it in the current configuration, so stuff like Defense Grid might be good for inclusion.
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Kitchen Finks and Predator Ooze are resilient devotion guys. I find Selkie even lives long enough to generate devotion mana. For card draw, I have been trying Slate of Ancestry and it works pretty well. Slower than Harmonize but it runs away with the game. I feel safe fighting Jund when I can reload easily. You can also Wave it out.
I enjoy the Command loops for four turns of Fallow Earth, ending in Craterhoof with four Witnesses out. I run two but I want more.
I'm a little surprised to see no Ghostly Prisons SB. I mean, are swords really that big a deal? I could easily see them coming out for Ghostly prison to protect against the combo, and any swarming strategies that may arise. I'm still a little iffy on KotR being the best option fetch up a Nykthos, though it may be a little more covert than the more typical options.By the time it's applicable I can usually at least attempt sticking a Titan, or already cast an early Sylvan Scrying.
I dislike the Terastodon though. I think it would be better off as another Craterhoof.
Right now I'm trying Gavony Township in the Terastodon slot. I figure since you're already in GW and have Knights it can't be wrong.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
According to the interview, the swords were for the Jund matchup.
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Would Panglacial Wurm be a 1-of that fits into the main deck? You'd need 7 mana and a search ability, which can be done off of a fetch land. If you draw it, it's not exactly a bad creature either since it is usually a 2-turn clock. If you fetch for it, you get major card advantage.
The thing with the deck is that it already have several win con, Panglacial Wurm look great on paper but it doesn't bring anything to the deck at all.
Also trading consistency for raw power isn't the way to go for this deck because it's already fairly inconsistent against disruptive opponent aka mostly every archetype.
Jund match up should be easy because of Harmonize, Primal Command and Eternal Witness already in the main, having Baloth in the side seal the deal.
I side in Summoning Trap against control deck no need for cute land destruction /splash more red (red splash for kessig is cool)
For Tron , Primal Command Loop and replace the Kessig + Stomping Ground with 2 Tectonic Edge. Also they have no way to stop you from casting a big Wave.. reason why I main deck Urabrask.
I dislike Craterhoof Behemoth and I feel it simply make good Wave hard to cast while casting a Wave for 6 (9) and hiting Urabrask + Titan = game.
Thought about the Worm, too, because it feels so bad if you have like 10 green mana open, but nothing to spend it on.
But if you draw it, it seems to be just a way too bad card for modern (slow, no protection against common removal like PtE or Maelstrom Pulse and it is not big enough to go over a bigger Goyf or Ooze without dying).
Haven't tried it out, though.
Would be glad if you tell us here if you should do some testing.
How are Boil and Grid getting there? I was testing against the UWR Tempo deck from the GP this weekend and it was hard to see a board state where Boil would have helped. They have a bunch of things like Glacial Fortress and Colonnade to get right around Boil and Choke. That list also only plays two Leaks, three Cryptics and a Counterflux from the board. Makes me think that Grid is a little too narrow. If you found different results, I'd like to hear them for certain!
I like Ghost Quarter over Edge because Tron can do a host of nasty things with just three Tron lands out. If you're having issues with Tron, have you tried Beast Within? Maybe I'm using it as a crutch but it's a good catch-all.