Oh so your plan is for me to run all around the state finding the exact right people and trading them up $1 at a time (good luck doing much more than that with smartphones and TCG/SCG) 163 times, to get my underground sea?
In the meantime I've spent 40 hours of my time, making half minimum wage trading magic cards.
Yeah man, that's a solid plan right there. Thanks for the tip. I don't know how anybody could POSSIBLY be concerned about expensive cards when there are options like this available (nevermind that also, if everybody did this, the price on undergroudn sea would simply rise by orders of magnoitude in response. Let's just ignore that fact)
I didn't mean "trade up" valuewise, I meant in acquiring harder-to-get cards. Trading standard cards for legacy cards is trading up, trading legacy cards for standard cards is trading down. I don't know what else to tell you on how to trade. You shouldn't even expect to make minimum wage on selling cards, it's very hard. You should be trading to acquire cards you need, not to make money. I have talked to people who do this for a living and they say they have to get cards for 11% of their full value to make money. It's not like they're selling these cards for full value either. They just buylist them, which doesn't pay the full amount either.
If you have a hard time finding legacy cards then legacy probably isn't for you, you need to have other people who play it as well. I barely have anyone to play it with locally but I can take a 30 minute drive and play legacy with plenty of other people. So saying that you have to drive all over the state is a bit of a hyperbole.
What I said was that is is prohibitively expensive, and that WOTC reprinting thoughtseize has absolutely nothing to do with making it any less expensive or more attainable, because if I were to trade up for it, I would be LOSING money due to working for less than I could even at McDonalds to do so.
What would make underground sea less expensive would be reprinting underground sea, nothing more, nothing less.
Either you are a leisure class kid who has his life made and doesn't have any expenses other than MtG, or you're sharking people because you cannot buy 4x Underground Sea, 4x Tundra, 4x Scrubland, etc. On minimum wage.
They aren't supporting us, they are allowing cards to go from $12 to $35 overnight for profit, in fact Starcity themselves caused the drastic increase in fetchland prices by buying all they could in late '12 before drastically increasing their price in Jan '13. That's not supply and demand, that's dancing in the tight rope between market cornering and white collar crime.
Sure that's why most LGS have boxes and boxes of DGM on clearance and people aren't buying packs even at $2.50.
No company will ever admit a marketing mistake unless they receive massive public backlash, specially not when they have already sold those booster boxes to LGS' all around the glove, what do they care if that's permanently lagged stock that will be utterly unsellable once Voice and Blood Baron are out of standard?
Drop it man, it's obvious we're the only ones here not emotionally or economically invested in the status quo continuing. These people don't care if the game dies because of unsustainable commerce practices, all they care about is bragging how THEY can afford dual lands and we can not. They don't want filthy casuals ruining their precious cardboard investment.
It's really none of your business, but I'll indulge you. I pay rent. I make car payments. I buy food and gas. And I also have some money to spend on cards sometimes. I don't know how you ignored one of my earlier posts but I did trade in a considerable part of my collection to acquire my legacy deck. And no, I don't have any of those dual lands you listed. The only dual lands I have are Tropical Islands and Volcanic Islands. And I don't know why you would assume I have the dual lands you listed considering I stated in this thread and in my signature that I play RUG Delver (RUG). I'm not particularly well off, my family is not rich, I did not get an inheritance, but I know how to budget my money. I'm lower middle-class.
I didn't shark anyone to get my legacy deck. I buylisted most of my collection to get it. If you don't know what buylisting is, it's when you take your cards and sell them to a store for cash, or for store credit for which they'll pay you more. Buylisting hot standard cards is a good way to get credit, since the stores will pay a good amount for them (though still not as good as legacy cards, since legacy cards are more stable). Obzedat was a $15 card when I sold it to them, and I got $10 store credit for mine.
What I said was that is is prohibitively expensive, and that WOTC reprinting thoughtseize has absolutely nothing to do with making it any less expensive or more attainable, because if I were to trade up for it, I would be LOSING money due to working for less than I could even at McDonalds to do so.
What would make underground sea less expensive would be reprinting underground sea, nothing more, nothing less.
Then why bother trading or playing in FNM? You're making less than minimum wage in both. Oh right, there's this thing called fun. Trading is fun for some people. And for most, so is playing. Yes, you could buy that Underground Sea right now with cash. But you could also just trade for one with cards you have, by not spending money. That's what trading's intended purpose is.
Now you're just cherrypicking my posts. That is not a contradiction. What I said was that you could easily trade for these current staples. What I said in the other post that was very hard was making money off of the game. If you can sell all of your cards for full value tomorrow, then please let me know so I can sell some of mine too.
Then why bother trading or playing in FNM? You're making less than minimum wage in both. Oh right, there's this thing called fun. Trading is fun for some people. And for most, so is playing. Yes, you could buy that Underground Sea right now with cash. But you could also just trade for one with cards you have, by not spending money. That's what trading's intended purpose is.
I DON'T trade, or attend FNM. Nor do I find either of those things fun.
I like playing with my friends, at a kitchen table. None of whom have legacy staples. Yet all of whom would love to build the types of interesting new decks we could make if legacy staples were affordable.
It makes little sense to say that only people who enjoy ceaseless, economically inefficient trading should be allowed to play legacy magic, a game whose rules and core concept have nothing at all to do with trading.
That's like saying only people who enjoy tennis should be given an affordable opportunity to watch movies in theaters.
What I said was that you could easily trade for these current staples. What I said in the other post that was very hard was making money off of the game.
These are directly contradicting statements...
Underground sea is worth 10x as much as thoughtseize. If it is easy to trade from one to the other, then it logically follows that it is easy to make money trading, because you would have made a lot of money doing this.
How can the exact same action be both easy and difficult at the same time? You're talking in riddles.
I DON'T trade, or attend FNM. Nor do I find either of those things fun.
I like playing with my friends, at a kitchen table. None of whom have legacy staples. Yet all of whom would love to build the types of interesting new decks we could make if legacy staples were affordable.
It makes little sense to say that only people who enjoy ceaseless, economically inefficient trading should be allowed to play legacy magic, a game whose rules and core concept have nothing at all to do with trading.
That's like saying only people who enjoy tennis should be given an affordable opportunity to watch movies in theaters.
These are directly contradicting statements...
Underground sea is worth 10x as much as thoughtseize. If it is easy to trade from one to the other, then it logically follows that it is easy to make money trading, because you would have made a lot of money doing this.
How can the exact same action be both easy and difficult at the same time? You're talking in riddles.
Gee, I wonder why they call Magic a trading card game then.
No, I'm saying you should have to trade at least 10 Thoughtseizes. I don't know how you live in this Magical Christmasland where someone will hand you an Underground Sea for one Thoughtseize. That is not how trading works. I'm not speaking in riddles.
You trade cards, of equal value, for other cards of equal value (and they don't have to be the same price, they just have to add up to be the same). You don't trade lesser value cards for more expensive cards unless you get really lucky. You can't make money off of this. And by make money, I mean making profit selling cards. It is very hard to make a profit selling cards after trading unless you're a dealer or store.
Enough with the pissing matches. I posted one warning already and now this is my second. If you all don't stop taking shots at each other, I'm going to start handing out infractions. Period.
Okay fine, moving on to the heart of the matter as is relevant to the thread:
Let's forget any argument about trading or $ values for a moment. Just think of it this way: If there are, let's say 10,000 underground seas in circulation, and 5,000,000 players, then that's only one underground sea per 500 people.
No matter how you slice it, there's simply not enough to go around. If any more than 2,500 people want a playset of the card, then there WILL be a shortage, by logical necessity.
The only possible way to fix that (without counterfeiters) is for WOTC to print more of that specific card. No other cards they print will change that physical disparity between the number of underground seas and the number of people who need them, except for undergroud sea itself. My point is as simple as that. I apologize for my part in getting caught up in a side tangent.
The longer answer is that I don't think it's very clear whether it is illegal or not. I think it would basically have to be decided by a judge if and when you got sued. it's certainly close enough to be in the plausible gray area.
It would come down to questions like "is that image a sufficiently derivative work from tropical island?" which could go either way, since you're copying the same basic artwork and name and mechanics and card size and everything. And then also "did you rob them of a sale by making it yourself?" Which is also super unclear.
Honestly, you probably would win the case I'm guessing. But I find it to be way too high of a risk to gamble my reputation, career, savings, etc. just to play a game. So that's personally why I wouldn't make a deck of proxies. Also, because as stated in #2 in that quote, I'd like to give WOTC a chance to do it themselves. I'm content playing other formats for awhile yet.
Okay fine, moving on to the heart of the matter as is relevant to the thread:
Let's forget any argument about trading or $ values for a moment. Just think of it this way: If there are, let's say 10,000 underground seas in circulation, and 5,000,000 players, then that's only one underground sea per 500 people.
No matter how you slice it, there's simply not enough to go around. If any more than 2,500 people want a playset of the card, then there WILL be a shortage, by logical necessity.
The only possible way to fix that (without counterfeiters) is for WOTC to print more of that specific card. No other cards they print will change that physical disparity between the number of underground seas and the number of people who need them, except for undergroud sea itself. My point is as simple as that. I apologize for my part in getting caught up in a side tangent.
Thank you!! This I agree with. So how do we establish dialogue with wizards?
And @tobyornottoby
No. It is legal. As long as you don't try or intend to sell it. And illegal to print it or make it. But to own it seems to be legal.
Thank you!! This I agree with. So how do we establish dialogue with wizards?
Well write to them. But I don't think they will care, honestly, until/if there is enough pressure on them from people selling fakes (OR from people leaving the game in frustration at high prices) to convince them via their pocketbooks.
I could be wrong though. They seem to have acted in the interests of noisy people in the past -- it's just that usually the noisiest people are the collectors and "investors," not the other way around.
If I had to guess, I'd wager that what's happened in the past was something like this:
When normal players get screwed over it happens GRADUALLY (slowly creeping prices as people join and cards aren't printed), and when the investors have gotten screwed over, it's been SUDDEN (like reverberate being printed). So there's been more of a galvanizing force for investors to rally and complain loudly and at once, and no such rallying force for other players. So what they hear over and over is the investors, and they act accordingly.
If I'm right about that, then it might be possible, if somehow somebody or group could organize a lot of people at once, to convince them to act according to non-investor interests instead.
I have been picking up as many cheap Stoneforge's as I could for like a month does it make me a bad person? No... it makes me awesome and puts money in my pocket. Sorry I ruined everything for everybody forever... my bad. I actually find the selling end of speculating to be rather tedious but guess what... Magic is expensive if you don't have a ton of disposable income then you have to do something to make magic pay for magic. If you hate trading then get creative. Become a judge they get all kinds of free shwag, or maybe get a job in a game store, hell go to wall mart and load up your pockets like some gypsy highwayman, do whatever I don't care just please for the love of God stop complaining so god damn much. Thank You
Become a judge they get all kinds of free shwag, or maybe get a job in a game store, hell go to wall mart and load up your pockets like some gypsy highwayman, do whatever I don't care just please for the love of God stop complaining so god damn much. Thank You
Honestly this is funny, IMO, as people with this attitude are complaining about those who dislike a particular trend, and say something about it... as if the position they hold compared to the players, non-speculators, is an entitlement. When put that way, given how some people with that mindset talk about entitlements feelings, the irony is really heavy.
Thank you!! This I agree with. So how do we establish dialogue with wizards?
You could start by mailing WotC customer service daily about reprinting the dual lands.
Starcity claims they are against the resserved list, I don't believe them, it's very easy to lie when you have all the cards. But if they really do and all WotC needs is veritable proof that the market for them overwhelms the negative reaction of the reserved list supporters, maybe a terabite of emails would be a good place to start making our case.
go to wall mart and load up your pockets like some gypsy highwayman, do whatever I don't care just please for the love of God stop complaining so god damn much. Thank You
The mindset of the average speculator. Totaly unsurprising to tell the truth.
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maybe a terabite of emails would be a good place to start making our case.
Yeah but even if enough people agree, and even if we have a reason to rally them together at this particular point in time (the implications and symbolism of this example of counterfeiting, even if it isn't enough to do damage YET), the question remains:
How the hell do you go about contacting a large, representative sample of magic players? Forums and LGSs wouldn't even lead to that many people AND they wouldn't be that representative...
Well write to them. But I don't think they will care, honestly, until/if there is enough pressure on them from people selling fakes (OR from people leaving the game in frustration at high prices) to convince them via their pocketbooks.
I could be wrong though. They seem to have acted in the interests of noisy people in the past -- it's just that usually the noisiest people are the collectors and "investors," not the other way around.
If I had to guess, I'd wager that what's happened in the past was something like this:
When normal players get screwed over it happens GRADUALLY (slowly creeping prices as people join and cards aren't printed), and when the investors have gotten screwed over, it's been SUDDEN (like reverberate being printed). So there's been more of a galvanizing force for investors to rally and complain loudly and at once, and no such rallying force for other players. So what they hear over and over is the investors, and they act accordingly.
If I'm right about that, then it might be possible, if somehow somebody or group could organize a lot of people at once, to convince them to act according to non-investor interests instead.
To illustrate my point I would like to cite a magic card
Mtgsalvation has the means and the opportunity, if enough people can actually agree that the reserved list should be abolished.
Could mtgsalvation.com actually be the salvationofmtg....com
I'm kinda new here so I don't have the wherewithall to organize something like this, maybe one of the admins or mods feels strongly about this issue and can lead the charge with a sticky'd topic linking a web based petition form asking everyone to get their playgroup onboard. Everyone I know IRL wants to see something like legacy masters. I can't imagine someone who wouldn't. I've been playing for 20 years but idc if my legends sylvan library drops in price so others can try it out, its a great card that invites and rewards skill!!!
...go to wall mart and load up your pockets like some gypsy highwayman, do whatever I don't care just please for the love of God stop complaining so god damn much. Thank You
Yes, that is what this thread is actually supposed to be about. People stealing Wizards intellectual property and buying/selling it for cheap.
If anything, counterfeiters do nothing to encourage Wizards to reprint Legacy staples...only to abandon Modern and Legacy in favor of their new hologram frame formats. The hassle of weeding out fakes from authentic magic cards would be too much of a hassle for Wizards to put up with.
I'm not aware...but is this guy even selling ABUR duals that people covet so dearly? It'd be kind of hard to fake a 20 year old card, imo. This hurts Modern a whole lot more than it hurts Legacy, although it hurts both. Legacy cards are quite organic, causing people to look at them more deeply. Regardless, the deck-checks will be fierce and unpleasant in the coming months.
I don't blame Wizards for these counterfeiters. I do think they've made countless mistakes with the Modern format. It does not please the people. Their insatiable hunger for more and more eternal format is not satisfied. Unfortunately, what they really have to do is make people happy with standard, so I'm hoping it gets better soon.
Also, someone in this thread compared Foil Hymn to Legacy staples when talking about trading down with standard. That's just a silly pimp move. The only deals that matter are ones for duals and 'Legacy Power' - FoW, LED, Wasteland, duals, Jace, Goyf, etc. The only people in their right mind who would trade these things for standard cards are those who cannot use them because they can't afford the $3000 worth of cards around them in order to be competitive. Those people are few and far in between.
Some people will never understand why non-rotating formats have to be limited in supply.
Technically, yes (unless the law has changed in the last 6 years) because the background and other art elements are copyrighted, though it is all-but unenforceable to punish someone for owning a self made proxy. As soon as a proxy is sold or traded by one person to another it becomes a more serious offense, but still unlikely that anything would be done. Look on the mothership regarding the policy and their stance. I got the "legal" information from an very old thread regarding another legal issue, in which a Patent Attorney answered a ton of questions from people.
Mtgsalvation has the means and the opportunity, if enough people can actually agree that the reserved list should be abolished.
Could mtgsalvation.com actually be the salvationofmtg....com
The issue is that no matter how many people send them emails, they claim that it is 100% off the table, and there is no way that they can abolish the reserve list. Now, clearly some people just flat-out don't believe what the people at WotC say, and have said for some time, and there is really no convincing them, but I genuinely see it as all but impossible to influence them to change their stance. The frustrating fact is the legally they can't share the reasons why this is the case so even people like myself who don't like or agree with the reserved list but might understand the neccisity if we had all the information are left unsatisfied.
The mindset of the average speculator. Totaly unsurprising to tell the truth.
I love that cards cost as much as they do. Drinking 18yo scotch and firing guns is good but nothing i mean nothing gives me an inflated sense of self esteem like going to FNM with a binder worth the price of a fairly nice car and using revised Tundras to light my cuban cigar's cause hey they were SP anway.
The issue is that no matter how many people send them emails, they claim that it is 100% off the table, and there is no way that they can abolish the reserve list. Now, clearly some people just flat-out don't believe what the people at WotC say, and have said for some time, and there is really no convincing them, but I genuinely see it as all but impossible to influence them to change their stance. The frustrating fact is the legally they can't share the reasons why this is the case so even people like myself who don't like or agree with the reserved list but might understand the neccisity if we had all the information are left unsatisfied.
In that case ali baba and the forty chinese thieves would have my support
Its simple. They have the option to care. If they do not care then start the printing presses.
...and how do you get them to agree with your view? It is clearly not one that everyone shares.
I knew that before the thread was started (the "investors" being an obvious group who does not agree). The point of petitions is not to show 100% unanimous support. It's to show that one position cares more deeply and possibly in greater numbers than another.
they claim that it is 100% off the table
1) As you say this isn't necessarily true just cause a PR guy said it
2) Even if it is, is an almost-identical reprint legally impossible? I know that people complained about reverberate and they said they wouldn't do it again, but is THAT sort of thing 100% legally impossible? or just a promise they can break, unlike the reserve list? If that's on the table, then it's easy to just reprint almost-reserve-cards for every one and call it a day.
3) If not even THAT, then it would still help to reprint other non-reserve list cards much more aggressively, and/or other steps in the right direction.
4) There must be some other legal course of action possible anyway. Selling the copyright to somebody else who can then reprint? Re-incorporating as something else? I don't know. People do slipperier things all the time. it's quite possible that "It's 100% off the table as a casual everyday decision, but not off the table in the context of drastic actions if the fate of the company depends on it"
Its simple. They have the option to care. If they do not care then start the printing presses.
Sort of that. I wouldn't actually DO anything to help this come about, but I might sort of hope for it a bit, if truly none of the above options is possible or considered seriously by WOTC.
If they really are locked in to the reserve list 100% and can't even pursue any workarounds at all, then, well, they made a fatal error as a company and I'm not shedding a ton of tears for people who signed away all their own freedoms and/or won't make the sacrifices necessary to extricate themselves. Hopefully they apply the lesson to their next company?
I love that cards cost as much as they do. Drinking 18yo scotch and firing guns is good but nothing i mean nothing gives me an inflated sense of self esteem like going to FNM with a binder worth the price of a fairly nice car and using revised Tundras to light my cuban cigar's cause hey they were SP anway.
This guy is clearly just perpetuating the ire of other users. Moderators pls
I didn't mean "trade up" valuewise, I meant in acquiring harder-to-get cards. Trading standard cards for legacy cards is trading up, trading legacy cards for standard cards is trading down. I don't know what else to tell you on how to trade. You shouldn't even expect to make minimum wage on selling cards, it's very hard. You should be trading to acquire cards you need, not to make money. I have talked to people who do this for a living and they say they have to get cards for 11% of their full value to make money. It's not like they're selling these cards for full value either. They just buylist them, which doesn't pay the full amount either.
If you have a hard time finding legacy cards then legacy probably isn't for you, you need to have other people who play it as well. I barely have anyone to play it with locally but I can take a 30 minute drive and play legacy with plenty of other people. So saying that you have to drive all over the state is a bit of a hyperbole.
If you can't make minimum wage doing it, then it's stupid to do it instead of just paying out of pocket for the card you want...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
I don't recall saying it was hard. I could order one in the next 30 seconds if I wanted to. Look here's one right here:
http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Gathering-Underground-Revised-Edition/dp/B0062DOUNM/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1389510903&sr=1-1&keywords=underground+sea
What I said was that is is prohibitively expensive, and that WOTC reprinting thoughtseize has absolutely nothing to do with making it any less expensive or more attainable, because if I were to trade up for it, I would be LOSING money due to working for less than I could even at McDonalds to do so.
What would make underground sea less expensive would be reprinting underground sea, nothing more, nothing less.
It's really none of your business, but I'll indulge you. I pay rent. I make car payments. I buy food and gas. And I also have some money to spend on cards sometimes. I don't know how you ignored one of my earlier posts but I did trade in a considerable part of my collection to acquire my legacy deck. And no, I don't have any of those dual lands you listed. The only dual lands I have are Tropical Islands and Volcanic Islands. And I don't know why you would assume I have the dual lands you listed considering I stated in this thread and in my signature that I play RUG Delver (RUG). I'm not particularly well off, my family is not rich, I did not get an inheritance, but I know how to budget my money. I'm lower middle-class.
I didn't shark anyone to get my legacy deck. I buylisted most of my collection to get it. If you don't know what buylisting is, it's when you take your cards and sell them to a store for cash, or for store credit for which they'll pay you more. Buylisting hot standard cards is a good way to get credit, since the stores will pay a good amount for them (though still not as good as legacy cards, since legacy cards are more stable). Obzedat was a $15 card when I sold it to them, and I got $10 store credit for mine.
Followed 2 posts later by:
...quite the rapid change of heart, there.
Then why bother trading or playing in FNM? You're making less than minimum wage in both. Oh right, there's this thing called fun. Trading is fun for some people. And for most, so is playing. Yes, you could buy that Underground Sea right now with cash. But you could also just trade for one with cards you have, by not spending money. That's what trading's intended purpose is.
Now you're just cherrypicking my posts. That is not a contradiction. What I said was that you could easily trade for these current staples. What I said in the other post that was very hard was making money off of the game. If you can sell all of your cards for full value tomorrow, then please let me know so I can sell some of mine too.
I DON'T trade, or attend FNM. Nor do I find either of those things fun.
I like playing with my friends, at a kitchen table. None of whom have legacy staples. Yet all of whom would love to build the types of interesting new decks we could make if legacy staples were affordable.
It makes little sense to say that only people who enjoy ceaseless, economically inefficient trading should be allowed to play legacy magic, a game whose rules and core concept have nothing at all to do with trading.
That's like saying only people who enjoy tennis should be given an affordable opportunity to watch movies in theaters.
These are directly contradicting statements...
Underground sea is worth 10x as much as thoughtseize. If it is easy to trade from one to the other, then it logically follows that it is easy to make money trading, because you would have made a lot of money doing this.
How can the exact same action be both easy and difficult at the same time? You're talking in riddles.
Gee, I wonder why they call Magic a trading card game then.
No, I'm saying you should have to trade at least 10 Thoughtseizes. I don't know how you live in this Magical Christmasland where someone will hand you an Underground Sea for one Thoughtseize. That is not how trading works. I'm not speaking in riddles.
You trade cards, of equal value, for other cards of equal value (and they don't have to be the same price, they just have to add up to be the same). You don't trade lesser value cards for more expensive cards unless you get really lucky. You can't make money off of this. And by make money, I mean making profit selling cards. It is very hard to make a profit selling cards after trading unless you're a dealer or store.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Let's forget any argument about trading or $ values for a moment. Just think of it this way: If there are, let's say 10,000 underground seas in circulation, and 5,000,000 players, then that's only one underground sea per 500 people.
No matter how you slice it, there's simply not enough to go around. If any more than 2,500 people want a playset of the card, then there WILL be a shortage, by logical necessity.
The only possible way to fix that (without counterfeiters) is for WOTC to print more of that specific card. No other cards they print will change that physical disparity between the number of underground seas and the number of people who need them, except for undergroud sea itself. My point is as simple as that. I apologize for my part in getting caught up in a side tangent.
The longer answer is that I don't think it's very clear whether it is illegal or not. I think it would basically have to be decided by a judge if and when you got sued. it's certainly close enough to be in the plausible gray area.
It would come down to questions like "is that image a sufficiently derivative work from tropical island?" which could go either way, since you're copying the same basic artwork and name and mechanics and card size and everything. And then also "did you rob them of a sale by making it yourself?" Which is also super unclear.
Honestly, you probably would win the case I'm guessing. But I find it to be way too high of a risk to gamble my reputation, career, savings, etc. just to play a game. So that's personally why I wouldn't make a deck of proxies. Also, because as stated in #2 in that quote, I'd like to give WOTC a chance to do it themselves. I'm content playing other formats for awhile yet.
Thank you!! This I agree with. So how do we establish dialogue with wizards?
And @tobyornottoby
No. It is legal. As long as you don't try or intend to sell it. And illegal to print it or make it. But to own it seems to be legal.
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
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Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
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-Standard-
Esper Control
Well write to them. But I don't think they will care, honestly, until/if there is enough pressure on them from people selling fakes (OR from people leaving the game in frustration at high prices) to convince them via their pocketbooks.
I could be wrong though. They seem to have acted in the interests of noisy people in the past -- it's just that usually the noisiest people are the collectors and "investors," not the other way around.
If I had to guess, I'd wager that what's happened in the past was something like this:
When normal players get screwed over it happens GRADUALLY (slowly creeping prices as people join and cards aren't printed), and when the investors have gotten screwed over, it's been SUDDEN (like reverberate being printed). So there's been more of a galvanizing force for investors to rally and complain loudly and at once, and no such rallying force for other players. So what they hear over and over is the investors, and they act accordingly.
If I'm right about that, then it might be possible, if somehow somebody or group could organize a lot of people at once, to convince them to act according to non-investor interests instead.
Honestly this is funny, IMO, as people with this attitude are complaining about those who dislike a particular trend, and say something about it... as if the position they hold compared to the players, non-speculators, is an entitlement. When put that way, given how some people with that mindset talk about entitlements feelings, the irony is really heavy.
You could start by mailing WotC customer service daily about reprinting the dual lands.
Starcity claims they are against the resserved list, I don't believe them, it's very easy to lie when you have all the cards. But if they really do and all WotC needs is veritable proof that the market for them overwhelms the negative reaction of the reserved list supporters, maybe a terabite of emails would be a good place to start making our case.
The mindset of the average speculator. Totaly unsurprising to tell the truth.
Yeah but even if enough people agree, and even if we have a reason to rally them together at this particular point in time (the implications and symbolism of this example of counterfeiting, even if it isn't enough to do damage YET), the question remains:
How the hell do you go about contacting a large, representative sample of magic players? Forums and LGSs wouldn't even lead to that many people AND they wouldn't be that representative...
To illustrate my point I would like to cite a magic card
INEXORABLE TIDE
Mtgsalvation has the means and the opportunity, if enough people can actually agree that the reserved list should be abolished.
Could mtgsalvation.com actually be the salvationofmtg....com
I'm kinda new here so I don't have the wherewithall to organize something like this, maybe one of the admins or mods feels strongly about this issue and can lead the charge with a sticky'd topic linking a web based petition form asking everyone to get their playgroup onboard. Everyone I know IRL wants to see something like legacy masters. I can't imagine someone who wouldn't. I've been playing for 20 years but idc if my legends sylvan library drops in price so others can try it out, its a great card that invites and rewards skill!!!
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
Yes, that is what this thread is actually supposed to be about. People stealing Wizards intellectual property and buying/selling it for cheap.
If anything, counterfeiters do nothing to encourage Wizards to reprint Legacy staples...only to abandon Modern and Legacy in favor of their new hologram frame formats. The hassle of weeding out fakes from authentic magic cards would be too much of a hassle for Wizards to put up with.
I'm not aware...but is this guy even selling ABUR duals that people covet so dearly? It'd be kind of hard to fake a 20 year old card, imo. This hurts Modern a whole lot more than it hurts Legacy, although it hurts both. Legacy cards are quite organic, causing people to look at them more deeply. Regardless, the deck-checks will be fierce and unpleasant in the coming months.
I don't blame Wizards for these counterfeiters. I do think they've made countless mistakes with the Modern format. It does not please the people. Their insatiable hunger for more and more eternal format is not satisfied. Unfortunately, what they really have to do is make people happy with standard, so I'm hoping it gets better soon.
Also, someone in this thread compared Foil Hymn to Legacy staples when talking about trading down with standard. That's just a silly pimp move. The only deals that matter are ones for duals and 'Legacy Power' - FoW, LED, Wasteland, duals, Jace, Goyf, etc. The only people in their right mind who would trade these things for standard cards are those who cannot use them because they can't afford the $3000 worth of cards around them in order to be competitive. Those people are few and far in between.
Some people will never understand why non-rotating formats have to be limited in supply.
Legacy:
RWBG Goblins
RRR Burn
WBU Affinity
UBR Sac-Land Tendrils!
BBBPox
Next possible deck: D&T, but that just wouldn't be right.
Modern: R Goblins (work in progress)
Standard: I only care about standard when Goblins is a deck.
Limited: I only care about limited when Goblins are in the set.
Pauper:
RGoblins
URCloudpost
other decks
Goblins.
...and how do you get them to agree with your view? It is clearly not one that everyone shares.
The issue is that no matter how many people send them emails, they claim that it is 100% off the table, and there is no way that they can abolish the reserve list. Now, clearly some people just flat-out don't believe what the people at WotC say, and have said for some time, and there is really no convincing them, but I genuinely see it as all but impossible to influence them to change their stance. The frustrating fact is the legally they can't share the reasons why this is the case so even people like myself who don't like or agree with the reserved list but might understand the neccisity if we had all the information are left unsatisfied.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I love that cards cost as much as they do. Drinking 18yo scotch and firing guns is good but nothing i mean nothing gives me an inflated sense of self esteem like going to FNM with a binder worth the price of a fairly nice car and using revised Tundras to light my cuban cigar's cause hey they were SP anway.
Infraction issued for trolling. -Xen
In that case ali baba and the forty chinese thieves would have my support
Its simple. They have the option to care. If they do not care then start the printing presses.
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control
I knew that before the thread was started (the "investors" being an obvious group who does not agree). The point of petitions is not to show 100% unanimous support. It's to show that one position cares more deeply and possibly in greater numbers than another.
1) As you say this isn't necessarily true just cause a PR guy said it
2) Even if it is, is an almost-identical reprint legally impossible? I know that people complained about reverberate and they said they wouldn't do it again, but is THAT sort of thing 100% legally impossible? or just a promise they can break, unlike the reserve list? If that's on the table, then it's easy to just reprint almost-reserve-cards for every one and call it a day.
3) If not even THAT, then it would still help to reprint other non-reserve list cards much more aggressively, and/or other steps in the right direction.
4) There must be some other legal course of action possible anyway. Selling the copyright to somebody else who can then reprint? Re-incorporating as something else? I don't know. People do slipperier things all the time. it's quite possible that "It's 100% off the table as a casual everyday decision, but not off the table in the context of drastic actions if the fate of the company depends on it"
Sort of that. I wouldn't actually DO anything to help this come about, but I might sort of hope for it a bit, if truly none of the above options is possible or considered seriously by WOTC.
If they really are locked in to the reserve list 100% and can't even pursue any workarounds at all, then, well, they made a fatal error as a company and I'm not shedding a ton of tears for people who signed away all their own freedoms and/or won't make the sacrifices necessary to extricate themselves. Hopefully they apply the lesson to their next company?
This guy is clearly just perpetuating the ire of other users. Moderators pls
Mimeoplasm, reanimator
Phelddagrif, superfriend/hugs
Edric, counter-target-player
Child of alara, Gods/Lands-Control
Titania, Timmy-combo
-Tiny Leaders-
Geist <under construction>
-Standard-
Esper Control