It really just shows how limited is so dependant on draws. His deck is certainly not as good as few others in the top 8.. but in limited alot is how you predict your draws(whether or not to trade early, etc) and flood/if you draw your good cards.
It really just shows how limited is so dependant on draws. His deck is certainly not as good as few others in the top 8.. but in limited alot is how you predict your draws(whether or not to trade early, etc) and flood/if you draw your good cards.
Constructed is what shows true skill.
Spoken like someone who simply has no understanding whatsoever of drafting
It really just shows how limited is so dependant on draws. His deck is certainly not as good as few others in the top 8.. but in limited alot is how you predict your draws(whether or not to trade early, etc) and flood/if you draw your good cards.
Constructed is what shows true skill.
This is completely wrong. Limited is incredibly skill intensive, draft especially. Much, much more so than Contstructed. And I'm a constructed player, I'll even admit how difficult drafting is, to he point that I admit I'm not good enough to draft anything except casually cubing with friends every so often.
Draft you need card evaluation skills, deck building skills, AND playskill. Constructed only requires the 3rd, considering everyone and their mother just netdecks nowadays.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
I never understood the need for the netdeckers to rail against limited
It's a strange reflex a lot of people on this board have
"It isn't good enough for me to netdeck with! Stupid limited"
I really cannot phathom how their minds functions (which is admittedly maybe the wrong assumption to make!)
Playing and winning with a netdeck is far from unskilled. I'm tired of people complaining about netdeckers; it's akin to "gosh darn it, someone bought a car that goes faster than the one I made out of spare parts!" Racing is a competitive sport, and there's no prize for "most original deck (or car)".
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
Draft you need card evaluation skills, deck building skills, AND playskill. Constructed only requires the 3rd, considering everyone and their mother just netdecks nowadays.
You say that like card evaluations and deck building isn't often incredibly obvious.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
#define ALWAYS SOMETIMES
#define NEVER RARELY
#define ALL MANY
-=GIVE US SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN=-
I'm nerd enough to link my WoW Armory Though I'll put it in a small font.
Martell's deck is merely okay. Very draw dependent, as are all but the most absurd aggressive decks in limited (which is why aggressive limited formats tend to be terrible).
Yam's deck is the best, although he misbuilt it. There is absolutely no way he should have been siding that Viper's Kiss.
Spoken like someone who simply has no understanding whatsoever of drafting
Standard players....
Those are the exact thoughts than ran through my head when I read that!
Tom is one of the best. For some reason, people often overlook him because he's on a team with people like Kibler, LSV, and PVDDR and other more exposed members of CFB. I know a lot of people who didn't know who he was until his PT win. I'm glad he took down the GP so he could cement himself in people's mind a bit more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of TWoo TV- Your trusted source for up to the minute neWOOs
Like playing Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014? Sign up for the Player Registry today!
Those are the exact thoughts than ran through my head when I read that!
Tom is one of the best. For some reason, people often overlook him because he's on a team with people like Kibler, LSV, and PVDDR and other more exposed members of CFB. I know a lot of people who didn't know who he was until his PT win. I'm glad he took down the GP so he could cement himself in people's mind a bit more.
What's more impressive is that he's not a professional Magic player. He is GC at a tech startup. I am also a GC at a tech startup, and knowing the hours I put in I find it incredible that he can find the time and energy to travel to tournaments, let alone to keep on top of things enough to win tournaments.
Think about that. Guys like Owen and Reid Duke are professional magic players. they don't have jobs, all they do is test and play magic and travel. Tom works 60 hour works in a high stress, important position and still matches their results.
Playing and winning with a netdeck is far from unskilled. I'm tired of people complaining about netdeckers; it's akin to "gosh darn it, someone bought a car that goes faster than the one I made out of spare parts!" Racing is a competitive sport, and there's no prize for "most original deck (or car)".
Netdeckers are the bane of MtG
I never said it didn't require skill, obviously building the deck is half the battle; you still need to win by playing it
But netdeckers are one of the reasons for card prices being out of control: they just buy what other people tell them to
Drafting is obviously quite difficult. Probably harder than constructed in a tournament sense because you have to metagame the limited section (yes), and then also draft well and accordingly.
I'm personally a constructed player, but I do enjoy limited a lot. I wish I was better at draft and limited in general.
My positive results in Magic have all been in Constructed (mostly Modern).
Oh and "Netdecking" isn't that bad. It still requires a lot of practice and skill to get good with a deck and perform well in a tournament setting, not to mention tuning it to the local metagame.
TL;DR: Magic at a competitive and professional level is hard, players that do well, tend to have practised a lot, and have a lot of skill.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[center]The best combo in Modern is now unbanned, yay!!!
I never said it didn't require skill, obviously building the deck is half the battle; you still need to win by playing it
But netdeckers are one of the reasons for card prices being out of control: they just buy what other people tell them to
They are sheep
Oh man, this is rich!
We'll be looking forwards to seeing you perform at the next limited event then!
That's not true at all. Card prices are what they are because of the success of the cards. Nightveil Specter is 7-10$ because it is critical to the success of two of the best decks in the format, not because of a 'sheep' mentality. Besides, if you're brewing you need to test against the tier 1 decks, so you'll either have to buy the cards or proxy them to test against.
Part of the excitement for me as a deck builder is trying to break the format (vis a vis control decks). It's just a fact that certain cards are going to be better than others and thus more in demand which creates upward pressure on their price. Are you going to try and brew a Mono-W devo list without Boros Reckoner for instance?
As for limited...it takes a different set of skills, and almost always is geared toward a certain type of player. As a control player I HATE limited. I can't stand it. It's also the reason why I do so poorly in limited. I'm just not the aggro / battle tricks up the wazoo type of player. Not to mention that most of the times, you just have to go 'for it' and hope they don't have the combat trick, which they almost always do, so it comes down to large board stalemates, which don't interest me at all. I'm much more comfortable at playing around strategies and cards with Control decks, hence my disproportionate success at Constructed than limited.
Certainly you wouldn't say that THS draft is more skill intensive than piloting Counter-top in Legacy, would you?
I'm not comparing the skill intensiveness of different formats, that's a silly endeavour of which I want no part of
I'm laughing at those who do and those who claim that limited is straight-forward (I'm still laughing at "card evaluations and deck building are incredibly obvious")
Drafting is obviously quite difficult. Probably harder than constructed in a tournament sense because you have to metagame the limited section (yes), and then also draft well and accordingly.
I'm personally a constructed player, but I do enjoy limited a lot. I wish I was better at draft and limited in general.
My positive results in Magic have all been in Constructed (mostly Modern).
Oh and "Netdecking" isn't that bad. It still requires a lot of practice and skill to get good with a deck and perform well in a tournament setting, not to mention tuning it to the local metagame.
TL;DR: Magic at a competitive and professional level is hard, players that do well, tend to have practised a lot, and have a lot of skill.
People always forget that play skill sets are dramatically different between limited and Constructed. I hate limited because it punishes Control players, since we usually stay away from the types of decks you MUST play in limited. This is why people like Wafo-Tapa and Soorani do MUCH better @ Constructed than limited, whereas people like Wescoe generally do better at limited.
People always forget that play skill sets are dramatically different between limited and Constructed. I hate limited because it punishes Control players, since we usually stay away from the types of decks you MUST play in limited. This is why people like Wafo-Tapa and Soorani do MUCH better @ Constructed than limited, whereas people like Wescoe generally do better at limited.
Aggressive limited formats is a very recent phenomenon. It's mostly the result of pushed power level on low drop creatures, lots of quality auras and pump spells, and very little removal, most of which is terrible and inefficient. Formats like this are just as skill intensive as any in the draft and deck construction phase, but are much higher variance in game play because players see fewer cards, and the first few cards you see have much greater importance. This exacerbates the effects of mana screw and color screw.
Draft you need card evaluation skills, deck building skills, AND playskill. Constructed only requires the 3rd, considering everyone and their mother just netdecks nowadays.
It does indeed require all three, but it requires the third in significantly lower levels. It's just factual that there are far fewer legitimate decisions in the average limited game than the average constructed game - this is from a guy who only plays limited (and EDH). Limited takes plenty of skill (and huge amounts of luck) to draft properly and assemble a good deck (much less so in sealed, but still), but it takes significantly less play skill and luck is far more of a factor in limited.
Go to Youtube and watch a few LSV constructed matches and a few LSV limited matches. Before he makes decisions, pause and guess what you'd do in his shoes. I guarantee you'd do the same far, far more frequently in limited because the correct play is obvious (or literally your only choice) so much more frequently. Plus, actual pros clearly have to evaluate cards and learn to build decks in standard, too.
Basically, for non-top tier players (who aren't brewing and testing their own constructed decks), limited takes more deck building skills and less play skill. Trying to figure out which takes more combined skill is absurd. They're not comparable. It's like trying to argue about whether it takes more skill to golf at a professional level or to both golf at a decent level and sculpt at a professional level. That's really all there is to it. Arguing about it beyond that is silly - there's just no basis for any other opinion.
Drafting is one of the hardest things in MTG as far as I'm concerned. I've played a few drafts, and honestly, the best I've ever done was 2-0-1 split, and that was because I got lucky.
Drafting is one of the hardest things in MTG as far as I'm concerned. I've played a few drafts, and honestly, the best I've ever done was 2-0-1 split, and that was because I got lucky.
You just need more practice. When I did my best was when I drafted a bunch. Nowadays, I barely play Limited other than a PR, so I know that I am not that good anymore.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I never said it didn't require skill, obviously building the deck is half the battle; you still need to win by playing it
But netdeckers are one of the reasons for card prices being out of control: they just buy what other people tell them to
They are sheep
If netdeckers weren't around, certain cards would still cost more than others, the only difference is the popular perception of what is good would cost a lot rather than the cards that prove themselves through their performance.
The average box value per set would still come out to the same amount, but a stupid casual card like Phenax might command $50 while an actual good card like Oracle of Bones would cost 50 cents, rather than prices that will reflect performance.
Limited takes plenty of skill (and huge amounts of luck) to draft properly and assemble a good deck (much less so in sealed, but still), but it takes significantly less play skill and luck is far more of a factor in limited.
Go to Youtube and watch a few LSV constructed matches and a few LSV limited matches. Before he makes decisions, pause and guess what you'd do in his shoes. I guarantee you'd do the same far, far more frequently in limited because the correct play is obvious (or literally your only choice) so much more frequently.
This is exactly right. In addition, mana screw/flood is much more of an issue in limited than in constructed, because in constructed you can always build a basically-perfect mana base for your deck. In limited you're usually just 10/7 + pray, while the equivalent constructed deck would have 8 dual lands with 4 of them scry lands to smooth things out more, etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Look at his Top 8 Draft. ONE rare in the SB.
I am not good at draft but other are pure masters.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpsac14/welcome
The guy is hilarious
Constructed is what shows true skill.
Spoken like someone who simply has no understanding whatsoever of drafting
Standard players....
This is completely wrong. Limited is incredibly skill intensive, draft especially. Much, much more so than Contstructed. And I'm a constructed player, I'll even admit how difficult drafting is, to he point that I admit I'm not good enough to draft anything except casually cubing with friends every so often.
Draft you need card evaluation skills, deck building skills, AND playskill. Constructed only requires the 3rd, considering everyone and their mother just netdecks nowadays.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
It's a strange reflex a lot of people on this board have
"It isn't good enough for me to netdeck with! Stupid limited"
I really cannot phathom how their minds functions (which is admittedly maybe the wrong assumption to make!)
Drafting is hard, I am very very bad at it. Haha.
Playing and winning with a netdeck is far from unskilled. I'm tired of people complaining about netdeckers; it's akin to "gosh darn it, someone bought a car that goes faster than the one I made out of spare parts!" Racing is a competitive sport, and there's no prize for "most original deck (or car)".
signature by rivenor at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
I hate the reserved list.
Mythic rares are fine.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Yam's deck is the best, although he misbuilt it. There is absolutely no way he should have been siding that Viper's Kiss.
Those are the exact thoughts than ran through my head when I read that!
Tom is one of the best. For some reason, people often overlook him because he's on a team with people like Kibler, LSV, and PVDDR and other more exposed members of CFB. I know a lot of people who didn't know who he was until his PT win. I'm glad he took down the GP so he could cement himself in people's mind a bit more.
Like playing Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014? Sign up for the Player Registry today!
What's more impressive is that he's not a professional Magic player. He is GC at a tech startup. I am also a GC at a tech startup, and knowing the hours I put in I find it incredible that he can find the time and energy to travel to tournaments, let alone to keep on top of things enough to win tournaments.
Think about that. Guys like Owen and Reid Duke are professional magic players. they don't have jobs, all they do is test and play magic and travel. Tom works 60 hour works in a high stress, important position and still matches their results.
Netdeckers are the bane of MtG
I never said it didn't require skill, obviously building the deck is half the battle; you still need to win by playing it
But netdeckers are one of the reasons for card prices being out of control: they just buy what other people tell them to
They are sheep
Oh man, this is rich!
We'll be looking forwards to seeing you perform at the next limited event then!
"Netdeckers" are people too and this is flaming. -Galspanic
I'm personally a constructed player, but I do enjoy limited a lot. I wish I was better at draft and limited in general.
My positive results in Magic have all been in Constructed (mostly Modern).
Oh and "Netdecking" isn't that bad. It still requires a lot of practice and skill to get good with a deck and perform well in a tournament setting, not to mention tuning it to the local metagame.
TL;DR: Magic at a competitive and professional level is hard, players that do well, tend to have practised a lot, and have a lot of skill.
That's not true at all. Card prices are what they are because of the success of the cards. Nightveil Specter is 7-10$ because it is critical to the success of two of the best decks in the format, not because of a 'sheep' mentality. Besides, if you're brewing you need to test against the tier 1 decks, so you'll either have to buy the cards or proxy them to test against.
Part of the excitement for me as a deck builder is trying to break the format (vis a vis control decks). It's just a fact that certain cards are going to be better than others and thus more in demand which creates upward pressure on their price. Are you going to try and brew a Mono-W devo list without Boros Reckoner for instance?
As for limited...it takes a different set of skills, and almost always is geared toward a certain type of player. As a control player I HATE limited. I can't stand it. It's also the reason why I do so poorly in limited. I'm just not the aggro / battle tricks up the wazoo type of player. Not to mention that most of the times, you just have to go 'for it' and hope they don't have the combat trick, which they almost always do, so it comes down to large board stalemates, which don't interest me at all. I'm much more comfortable at playing around strategies and cards with Control decks, hence my disproportionate success at Constructed than limited.
Certainly you wouldn't say that THS draft is more skill intensive than piloting Counter-top in Legacy, would you?
I'm laughing at those who do and those who claim that limited is straight-forward (I'm still laughing at "card evaluations and deck building are incredibly obvious")
People always forget that play skill sets are dramatically different between limited and Constructed. I hate limited because it punishes Control players, since we usually stay away from the types of decks you MUST play in limited. This is why people like Wafo-Tapa and Soorani do MUCH better @ Constructed than limited, whereas people like Wescoe generally do better at limited.
Aggressive limited formats is a very recent phenomenon. It's mostly the result of pushed power level on low drop creatures, lots of quality auras and pump spells, and very little removal, most of which is terrible and inefficient. Formats like this are just as skill intensive as any in the draft and deck construction phase, but are much higher variance in game play because players see fewer cards, and the first few cards you see have much greater importance. This exacerbates the effects of mana screw and color screw.
It does indeed require all three, but it requires the third in significantly lower levels. It's just factual that there are far fewer legitimate decisions in the average limited game than the average constructed game - this is from a guy who only plays limited (and EDH). Limited takes plenty of skill (and huge amounts of luck) to draft properly and assemble a good deck (much less so in sealed, but still), but it takes significantly less play skill and luck is far more of a factor in limited.
Go to Youtube and watch a few LSV constructed matches and a few LSV limited matches. Before he makes decisions, pause and guess what you'd do in his shoes. I guarantee you'd do the same far, far more frequently in limited because the correct play is obvious (or literally your only choice) so much more frequently. Plus, actual pros clearly have to evaluate cards and learn to build decks in standard, too.
Basically, for non-top tier players (who aren't brewing and testing their own constructed decks), limited takes more deck building skills and less play skill. Trying to figure out which takes more combined skill is absurd. They're not comparable. It's like trying to argue about whether it takes more skill to golf at a professional level or to both golf at a decent level and sculpt at a professional level. That's really all there is to it. Arguing about it beyond that is silly - there's just no basis for any other opinion.
You just need more practice. When I did my best was when I drafted a bunch. Nowadays, I barely play Limited other than a PR, so I know that I am not that good anymore.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If netdeckers weren't around, certain cards would still cost more than others, the only difference is the popular perception of what is good would cost a lot rather than the cards that prove themselves through their performance.
The average box value per set would still come out to the same amount, but a stupid casual card like Phenax might command $50 while an actual good card like Oracle of Bones would cost 50 cents, rather than prices that will reflect performance.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
This is exactly right. In addition, mana screw/flood is much more of an issue in limited than in constructed, because in constructed you can always build a basically-perfect mana base for your deck. In limited you're usually just 10/7 + pray, while the equivalent constructed deck would have 8 dual lands with 4 of them scry lands to smooth things out more, etc.