Green and other colors must use "formal knowledge" like blue in my opinion.
Utterly disagree.
Elves can be agressive or search for knowledge.Green should use both.
I would argue that almost all knowledge that is learned and passed down in green is done so by word of mouth, through traditions, story, and song. Elves do not form colleges and amass tomes of arcane knowledge, and are likely to shun such things. They probably have little use for mathematics beyond the very basic, and aside from practical experience with the physical world are unlikely to care about the study of physics. They know a about plants and nature through experience and proximity.
For example:
A green druid knows that plants need sunlight, and which plants need more and how to properly care for a forest so that the plants get what they need. This is the kind of practical knowledge and wisdom that one learns from living close to nature. This is not "formal" knowledge.
A blue mage has lots of cuttings of plants from all over the world, and a university library full of diagrams and and botanical theory. They build microscopes and look inside the leaf to see the chlorophyll and find out the exact mechanism through which a plant absorbs sunlight. They have read all the books and have amassed facts. This is "formal" knowledge.
Honestly, if there's any color that could use some redefining it's red. Look at every eternal format and you'll notice the same thing: there are no Tier 1 decks that are base red. Red is a support color in every single deck its played in with the exception if Burn which isn't and has never been a Tier 1 archetype. That color needs some love, man.
I would argue that almost all knowledge that is learned and passed down in green is done so by word of mouth, through traditions, story, and song. Elves do not form colleges and amass tomes of arcane knowledge, and are likely to shun such things. They probably have little use for mathematics beyond the very basic, and aside from practical experience with the physical world are unlikely to care about the study of physics. They know a about plants and nature through experience and proximity.
For example:
A green druid knows that plants need sunlight, and which plants need more and how to properly care for a forest so that the plants get what they need. This is the kind of practical knowledge and wisdom that one learns from living close to nature. This is not "formal" knowledge.
A blue mage has lots of cuttings of plants from all over the world, and a university library full of diagrams and and botanical theory. They build microscopes and look inside the leaf to see the chlorophyll and find out the exact mechanism through which a plant absorbs sunlight. They have read all the books and have amassed facts. This is "formal" knowledge.
Elves does not need follow scientific knowledge,but they can study esoteric and ancient universal knowledge,which is much better than science sometimes.
The easiest way to look at it is as follows, pretend a mage of each colour goes to a university, here's what they are most likely to major in:
Blue - Engineering, Math, Science, etc.
Green - History, English, Theater, etc.
White - Law, Criminal Justice, Theology, etc.
Black - Lawyer, Business, etc.
Red - Dance, Music, etc.
So what's the major difference between Blue and Green? Well as many have said, it's wisdom versus intelligence. What does that mean? Well look at the majors, because while Math and Science have serious historical components to them, they're not so much about the past as they are about the future. Intellect is based on the concept of development, using the past to build the future, while on the other hand Wisdom is about reflecting on the past. The historian wants to Explore and Restore the Forgotten Lore, the scientist wants to Tinker with machines and theories until they have a Stroke of Genius that results in a Unifying Theory...
Elves does not need follow scientific knowledge,but they can study esoteric and ancient universal knowledge,which is much better than science sometimes.
Yes, but that is lore...the wisdom of the ages...passed down through legend and song. Sure, it is still a form of knowledge, but it does not actually change what kinds of cards that green gets just to acknowledge that fact. Again, you are just using the term knowledge too broadly to be useful.
Wait, White would be studying Law and Criminal Justice, but Black would be a Lawyer?
Yea, it's kind of a grey area, but think of it as White gets the Judge and Black gets the Lawyer who is more about proving his client is not guilty or arguing that the law upholds his view based on some loophole or whatnot. So White loves the law, Black knows the law.
In other words, White studies law to enforce it, Black studies law to circumvent it. Lawyers aren't evil, they just look to argue their cause and prove that things are their way. A Judge on the other hand is there to uphold the law as is, and therefore is more White.
You can also go into many carriers studying law/CJ, such as the police force, which is very White... And no, I don't mean that as some kind of social commentary.
Edit: Also, if you've seen the show Boston Legal, both Alan Shore and Melvin Palmer would be Black (And maybe something else in some cases), despite one being much scummier than the other. Yes, Alan Shore is a humanitarian, but at the same time he's not afraid to buy the law when he sees fit, he is willing to intimidate others, and simply enforce his views, not simply follow the book of law.
In short, Black enjoys the law, because it can buy and use the law, but it needs to understand the law to do so... As we've seen with the Orzhov, Dimir, and others.
I see green as the biology major who's interested in pursuing a career with the forestry or something like that. Maybe doing some botanical research for various companies, whose blue guys take that research and use it to make product. Blue is the biology major that wants to study medicine and interfere with nature's course in respect to the various pathogens.
Black/White is the Tumblr SJW, White is the law student who wants to do good, Black/White is also the law student that is attracted by the idea of profitting from upholding the law.
I see green as the biology major who's interested in pursuing a career with the forestry or something like that. Maybe doing some botanical research for various companies, whose blue guys take that research and use it to make product. Blue is the biology major that wants to study medicine and interfere with nature's course in respect to the various pathogens.
Black/White is the Tumblr SJW, White is the law student who wants to do good, Black/White is also the law student that is attracted by the idea of profitting from upholding the law.
Kind of, not really in my opinion both of those would be Blue-Green. I know we have the Simic who use nature and knowledge of it to shape evolution, but we also have Overbeing of Myth, Vedaklen Heretic, Wood Sage, and Sages of Anima which show that the colour combination can be about preservation too. Even Vorel has a very deep history with nature before he joined the Simic.
It's hard to really say though, as botany is a very green thing. Though really when you think of Green you think more of shamans and herbal medicines than you think of Wizards. A shaman draws from past and tradition to reproduce it, a Wizards uses their knowledge to create and innovate. It's really the difference of how and why, the Green mage wants to know how to cure someone with medicine, the Blue mage wants to know why the medicine works. So while a Green mage will take the time to educate themselves on medicines, they won't necessarily question them, but a Blue mage will try to figure out the active and inactive ingredients.
You are all getting it wrong. Green does not "study" anything in the academic sense of the word. Green knows what it knows through the passing down of lore and by living so close to nature and paying attention. Hedge Doctors, lay midwives, herbalists, trackers, rangers, druids, and shaman all have an ass-ton of knowledge about the natural world, and in an archaic society they probably have way more (at least practical) proficiency than the most ardent university student, but none of them are "studying" biology.
Witches can make a dang potent potion or salve that might put to shame anything a alchemist could create, but they have no formal training in chemistry.
You are all getting it wrong. Green does not "study" anything in the academic sense of the word. Green knows what it knows through the passing down of lore and by living so close to nature and paying attention. Hedge Doctors, lay midwives, herbalists, trackers, rangers, druids, and shaman all have an ass-ton of knowledge about the natural world, and in an archaic society they probably have way more (at least practical) proficiency than the most ardent university student, but none of them are "studying" biology.
Witches can make a dang potent potion or salve that might put to shame anything a alchemist could create, but they have no formal training in chemistry.
While I agree with you, and why I said Biology would be Green-Blue, as in the case of the Simic, if Green at all, I don't agree that Green doesn't study at all in a formal sense at times. Now and then Green does get a studious one like Magus of the Library probably studied a lot at what is formally a place of learning. He of course did it to learn history and preserve, not to innovate exactly.
You are all getting it wrong. Green does not "study" anything in the academic sense of the word. Green knows what it knows through the passing down of lore and by living so close to nature and paying attention. Hedge Doctors, lay midwives, herbalists, trackers, rangers, druids, and shaman all have an ass-ton of knowledge about the natural world, and in an archaic society they probably have way more (at least practical) proficiency than the most ardent university student, but none of them are "studying" biology.
Witches can make a dang potent potion or salve that might put to shame anything a alchemist could create, but they have no formal training in chemistry.
Sounds like peer reviewed field studies. So perhaps you're getting it wrong?
Lol @ this jerk stating his opinions as if they're facts. Pretty sure nobody in mtg lore is explicitly referred to as a biology major. Flame infraction -Galspanic
Flame infraction & 1 week suspension for inappropriate edit of the previous modtext -Rax
The easiest way to look at it is as follows, pretend a mage of each colour goes to a university, here's what they are most likely to major in:
Blue - Engineering, Math, Science, etc.
Green - History, English, Theater, etc.
White - Law, Criminal Justice, Theology, etc.
Black - Lawyer, Business, etc.
Red - Dance, Music, etc.
So what's the major difference between Blue and Green? Well as many have said, it's wisdom versus intelligence. What does that mean? Well look at the majors, because while Math and Science have serious historical components to them, they're not so much about the past as they are about the future. Intellect is based on the concept of development, using the past to build the future, while on the other hand Wisdom is about reflecting on the past. The historian wants to Explore and Restore the Forgotten Lore, the scientist wants to Tinker with machines and theories until they have a Stroke of Genius that results in a Unifying Theory...
Except Green would be that guy who doesn't go to college and thrives by getting on a career path straight away. Or he goes into athletics, leaving early to go play pro-ball
Daleks abhor nature...their entire reason for being is pervert nature using technology in order destroy anything in it's path. They were once a functioning organic species, but they twisted and broke that connection so that now they utterly need their vacuum cleaner mech suits. They are probably UB, but I have not thought about it too deeply. They might also be UW simply due to their love of order.
This is also why I hate "the Borg are green". They're not, not really. Their real interest has always been assimilating technology. But because they assimilated Picard, ZOMGZ, the Borg assimilate people! Pretty soon you have space vampires. And then First Contact has them assimilating early 21st century Earth for no Q-damned reason.
Green has a lot of untap effect, it just tends to focus them on lands (being able to pull more vital energy out of the land due to it's connection to it).
It also gets untapping creatures. Occasionally it'll get untapping any/all permanents. But again, green shouldn't say "untap target artifact".
Green is just fine. I would like more control elements in Green, but only if they fit the color, not just to cram stuff into green.
Green right now is a control color, just without any real answers to the majority of cards played. But it's definitely too slow to be considered an aggro color.
Interestingly, the green/blue conflict is an annoying false dichotomy in science, so in a way, lapis is correct about the knowledge thing. After all, studying physics may be blue, but "no perpetual motion" is def green, and all manner of subatomic randomness is definitely red because random!
Green has it made. There are three resources in magic. Cards, mana, and life. Green is above average in producing all of them.
Eh? Not quite. First, the best card draw spells are all black and blue. (I actually don't have a problem with this because, really, do you want another Yawgmoth's Bargain or Ancestral Recall?) However, I do have a problem with...there have been times when I've had WU decks which played blue for creatures and white for card draw. That should not happen, but it does.
To say green's above average at lifegain is also wrong, because the only reason white and black lifegain is played is because it does something else, usually a creature with lifelink. Green lifegain...doesn't.
And of course, basically until the recent "mana rocks have to cost at least 3 rule", green had significantly worse mana than...everyone, simply because a Llanowar Elves dies to a lot more removal than a diamond/signet/whatever. Those elves look nice, until Pyroclasm comes knocking.
The easiest way to look at it is as follows, pretend a mage of each colour goes to a university, here's what they are most likely to major in:
Blue - Engineering, Math, Science, etc.
Green - History, English, Theater, etc.
White - Law, Criminal Justice, Theology, etc.
Black - Lawyer, Business, etc.
Red - Dance, Music, etc.
Well, Teysa is Orzhov...
Why would theater and English not be red?
Black would piss away its time reading Ayn Rand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Well Green is not capable to help artifacts because artifacts does not use "vital energy".But green can animate an artifact transforming them in elementals.
Elementals are simple primitive spiritual creatures from mineral world.
Well Green is not capable to help artifacts because artifacts does not use "vital energy".But green can animate an artifact transforming them in elementals.
Elementals are simple primitive spiritual creatures from mineral world.
What does the have to do with anything? You could already already have a card like this in green: Renaturalize2GG
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact, if you do put a green elemental creature token into play under your control who's power and toughness are each equal to the converted mana cost of that artifact.
Aside from the fact that the templating and design of the card are amateurish, that is well within green's portion of the color pie and seems to be doing what you are saying.
What does the have to do with anything? You could already already have a card like this in green: Renaturalize2GG
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact, if you do put a green elemental creature token into play under your control who's power and toughness are each equal to the converted mana cost of that artifact.
Aside from the fact that the templating and design of the card are amateurish, that is well within green's portion of the color pie and seems to be doing what you are saying.
Artifact Mutation looks like the closest fit to what you're looking for.
Artifact Mutation looks like the closest fit to what you're looking for.
Well I was not looking for anything, I was just making a point. Also green has changed since then. Perhaps the example I used would have been more green if the Elemental token was in control of whomever had their artifact destroyed (like Beast Within), though the specific target limitation and the cost seems to justify only the caster getting the token. Either way, it was an example of what the OP was suggesting and I was simply pointing out that green by itself can already do that.
plummet, raking canopy and cloudthresher would be better examples? i'm not getting your reasons. probably because you have no reasons at all.
Crap (which can't even be improved by cantrip), better than Concentrate if you get out three enchantresses (in the same sense as "untaps for free"), and oh, some people think this is good, but they use things like 'It can turn Nylea, God of the Hunt into a creature' as evidence, so...crap.
and wotc (so it's not my personal opinion) that flying can't be liked by all the colors. there must be a color to specifically hate it.
Really? Where's the anti-hexproof color? The anti-trample color? The anti-first strike color? Think about this:
Windmill of Cervantes2
Artifact Creature—Construct
Defender, reach
When Windmill of Cervantes blocks a creature with first strike or double strike, destroy that creature. 0/4
More flavorful than Plummet, and by your (flawed) logic, it has to exist. Since we have to hate all mechanics.
I wouldn't even mind so much if Plummet was printed with the rest of the cycle: Great Wall, Ertai's Trickery, Break Open, and is there a black one at all?
since blue, black and white use it a lot, and red is pretty "neutral" but dragons and phoenixes get it regularly, green is the only color that can hate green. it was written on a wotc article so if want to really know something about green's color pie search it.
Translation: "I don't have time to give a [citation, even though it is clearly needed]."
Well I was not looking for anything, I was just making a point. Also green has changed since then. Perhaps the example I used would have been more green if the Elemental token was in control of whomever had their artifact destroyed (like Beast Within), though the specific target limitation and the cost seems to justify only the caster getting the token. Either way, it was an example of what the OP was suggesting and I was simply pointing out that green by itself can already do that.
I don't know, that sounds more blue. Or white.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I would argue that almost all knowledge that is learned and passed down in green is done so by word of mouth, through traditions, story, and song. Elves do not form colleges and amass tomes of arcane knowledge, and are likely to shun such things. They probably have little use for mathematics beyond the very basic, and aside from practical experience with the physical world are unlikely to care about the study of physics. They know a about plants and nature through experience and proximity.
For example:
A green druid knows that plants need sunlight, and which plants need more and how to properly care for a forest so that the plants get what they need. This is the kind of practical knowledge and wisdom that one learns from living close to nature. This is not "formal" knowledge.
A blue mage has lots of cuttings of plants from all over the world, and a university library full of diagrams and and botanical theory. They build microscopes and look inside the leaf to see the chlorophyll and find out the exact mechanism through which a plant absorbs sunlight. They have read all the books and have amassed facts. This is "formal" knowledge.
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Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Green has it made. There are three resources in magic. Cards, mana, and life. Green is above average in producing all of them.
Elves does not need follow scientific knowledge,but they can study esoteric and ancient universal knowledge,which is much better than science sometimes.
Blue - Engineering, Math, Science, etc.
Green - History, English, Theater, etc.
White - Law, Criminal Justice, Theology, etc.
Black - Lawyer, Business, etc.
Red - Dance, Music, etc.
So what's the major difference between Blue and Green? Well as many have said, it's wisdom versus intelligence. What does that mean? Well look at the majors, because while Math and Science have serious historical components to them, they're not so much about the past as they are about the future. Intellect is based on the concept of development, using the past to build the future, while on the other hand Wisdom is about reflecting on the past. The historian wants to Explore and Restore the Forgotten Lore, the scientist wants to Tinker with machines and theories until they have a Stroke of Genius that results in a Unifying Theory...
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Wait, White would be studying Law and Criminal Justice, but Black would be a Lawyer?
Huh. I somehow forgot about Goblins despite having played the deck for years. Alas, Goblins hasn't been Tier 1 since before Tarmogoyf was printed.
I suppose Imperial Painter is a deck too, but it's certainly not Tier 1.
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Yea, it's kind of a grey area, but think of it as White gets the Judge and Black gets the Lawyer who is more about proving his client is not guilty or arguing that the law upholds his view based on some loophole or whatnot. So White loves the law, Black knows the law.
In other words, White studies law to enforce it, Black studies law to circumvent it. Lawyers aren't evil, they just look to argue their cause and prove that things are their way. A Judge on the other hand is there to uphold the law as is, and therefore is more White.
You can also go into many carriers studying law/CJ, such as the police force, which is very White... And no, I don't mean that as some kind of social commentary.
Edit: Also, if you've seen the show Boston Legal, both Alan Shore and Melvin Palmer would be Black (And maybe something else in some cases), despite one being much scummier than the other. Yes, Alan Shore is a humanitarian, but at the same time he's not afraid to buy the law when he sees fit, he is willing to intimidate others, and simply enforce his views, not simply follow the book of law.
In short, Black enjoys the law, because it can buy and use the law, but it needs to understand the law to do so... As we've seen with the Orzhov, Dimir, and others.
Black/White is the Tumblr SJW, White is the law student who wants to do good, Black/White is also the law student that is attracted by the idea of profitting from upholding the law.
Kind of, not really in my opinion both of those would be Blue-Green. I know we have the Simic who use nature and knowledge of it to shape evolution, but we also have Overbeing of Myth, Vedaklen Heretic, Wood Sage, and Sages of Anima which show that the colour combination can be about preservation too. Even Vorel has a very deep history with nature before he joined the Simic.
It's hard to really say though, as botany is a very green thing. Though really when you think of Green you think more of shamans and herbal medicines than you think of Wizards. A shaman draws from past and tradition to reproduce it, a Wizards uses their knowledge to create and innovate. It's really the difference of how and why, the Green mage wants to know how to cure someone with medicine, the Blue mage wants to know why the medicine works. So while a Green mage will take the time to educate themselves on medicines, they won't necessarily question them, but a Blue mage will try to figure out the active and inactive ingredients.
Witches can make a dang potent potion or salve that might put to shame anything a alchemist could create, but they have no formal training in chemistry.
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While I agree with you, and why I said Biology would be Green-Blue, as in the case of the Simic, if Green at all, I don't agree that Green doesn't study at all in a formal sense at times. Now and then Green does get a studious one like Magus of the Library probably studied a lot at what is formally a place of learning. He of course did it to learn history and preserve, not to innovate exactly.
Sounds like peer reviewed field studies. So perhaps you're getting it wrong?
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Flame infraction -Galspanic
Flame infraction & 1 week suspension for inappropriate edit of the previous modtext -Rax
Except Green would be that guy who doesn't go to college and thrives by getting on a career path straight away. Or he goes into athletics, leaving early to go play pro-ball
Check out Maro's podcast on Green. Its number 79.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/drivetowork
"This is the final podcast in my series on color philosophy. I save the most misunderstood color for last".
B Lover Since '09 ~
Standard:
meh.
Modern:
Urzatron GR
Vintage:
Contol-Slaver UBR
EDH:
Drana B
Jhoira UR
Savra BG
Turned into:
Adun Oakenshield BGR
Sharuum BUW
Turned into:
Memnarch U
KiKi-Jiki R
Turned into:
Godo R
Turned into:
Aurelia RW
The Mimeoplasm UBG
Rasputin Dreamweaver UW
Turned into:
Geist of Saint Traft -French 1v1 UW
Nekusar UBR
Oh, you mean "green Fireball I can't Black Lotus Channel loliwin, passable beater for Doran, card nobody plays even in limited"? Those cards?
I fail to see how they're required for balance.
This is also why I hate "the Borg are green". They're not, not really. Their real interest has always been assimilating technology. But because they assimilated Picard, ZOMGZ, the Borg assimilate people! Pretty soon you have space vampires. And then First Contact has them assimilating early 21st century Earth for no Q-damned reason.
It also gets untapping creatures. Occasionally it'll get untapping any/all permanents. But again, green shouldn't say "untap target artifact".
Green right now is a control color, just without any real answers to the majority of cards played. But it's definitely too slow to be considered an aggro color.
Interestingly, the green/blue conflict is an annoying false dichotomy in science, so in a way, lapis is correct about the knowledge thing. After all, studying physics may be blue, but "no perpetual motion" is def green, and all manner of subatomic randomness is definitely red because random!
Eh? Not quite. First, the best card draw spells are all black and blue. (I actually don't have a problem with this because, really, do you want another Yawgmoth's Bargain or Ancestral Recall?) However, I do have a problem with...there have been times when I've had WU decks which played blue for creatures and white for card draw. That should not happen, but it does.
To say green's above average at lifegain is also wrong, because the only reason white and black lifegain is played is because it does something else, usually a creature with lifelink. Green lifegain...doesn't.
And of course, basically until the recent "mana rocks have to cost at least 3 rule", green had significantly worse mana than...everyone, simply because a Llanowar Elves dies to a lot more removal than a diamond/signet/whatever. Those elves look nice, until Pyroclasm comes knocking.
Well, Teysa is Orzhov...
Why would theater and English not be red?
Black would piss away its time reading Ayn Rand.
On phasing:
Elementals are simple primitive spiritual creatures from mineral world.
Renaturalize 2GG
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact, if you do put a green elemental creature token into play under your control who's power and toughness are each equal to the converted mana cost of that artifact.
Aside from the fact that the templating and design of the card are amateurish, that is well within green's portion of the color pie and seems to be doing what you are saying.
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Artifact Mutation looks like the closest fit to what you're looking for.
Well I was not looking for anything, I was just making a point. Also green has changed since then. Perhaps the example I used would have been more green if the Elemental token was in control of whomever had their artifact destroyed (like Beast Within), though the specific target limitation and the cost seems to justify only the caster getting the token. Either way, it was an example of what the OP was suggesting and I was simply pointing out that green by itself can already do that.
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I was describing the consensus of players.
By the way, charming. Player consensus =/= "your personal opinion".
Crap (which can't even be improved by cantrip), better than Concentrate if you get out three enchantresses (in the same sense as "untaps for free"), and oh, some people think this is good, but they use things like 'It can turn Nylea, God of the Hunt into a creature' as evidence, so...crap.
Who developed Urza's Saga. That's all we need to know about his sense of game balance. (And he admits this. You clearly don't.)
MaRo also has a habit of saying "Try it. You'll like it." for crap cards. I know Charging Badger will be on the list shortly.
Really? Where's the anti-hexproof color? The anti-trample color? The anti-first strike color? Think about this:
Windmill of Cervantes 2
Artifact Creature—Construct
Defender, reach
When Windmill of Cervantes blocks a creature with first strike or double strike, destroy that creature. 0/4
More flavorful than Plummet, and by your (flawed) logic, it has to exist. Since we have to hate all mechanics.
I wouldn't even mind so much if Plummet was printed with the rest of the cycle: Great Wall, Ertai's Trickery, Break Open, and is there a black one at all?
Translation: "I don't have time to give a [citation, even though it is clearly needed]."
I don't know, that sounds more blue. Or white.
On phasing: