This thread isn't a Debate or Entertainment thread, and it is particularly for anyone of any significant amount of Asian descent.
What is 'racism'? When is 'racism' racism?
To put this into some context, for instance, recently, there has been some furore over an episode of the comedy How I Met Your Mother (episode title: "Slapsgiving 3: Slappointment in Slapmarra"). Media all over the world have reported on the episode (e.g., the BBC), and there has even been a Twitter hash-tag thing going on (#howimetyourracism).
Three of the cast had make-up, costumes and accents which some viewers said were inappropriate, leading to the Twitter hashtag "#HowIMetYourRacism".
The writers said they now realised that "along the way we offended people".
In the episode Jason Segal's character Marshall travelled to China, where he met with characters from kung fu films, played by three of the regular cast.
Josh Radnor, Cobie Smulders and Alyson Hannigan were accused of using "yellowface" - the practice of using make-up to make white actors appear more East Asian.
Monday’s episode of How I Met Your Mother didn’t quite elicit the reaction the creators were hoping for. The episode—which featured Marshall (Jason Segel) meeting three characters from a Kung Fu movie, played by the show’s other (white) stars, Josh Radnor, Cobie Smulders and Alyson Hannigan—prompted viewers to protest the casts’ stereotypical Asian costumes and accents. It wasn’t long before the hashtag #HowIMetYourRacism began appearing on Twitter and, according to the Hollywood Reporter.
For anyone that has actually viewed the episode, do you believe the episode has any notable racism? How much? Why? (Are you Asian? If so, how much so?)
What can you comment on racism in daily life as well as in popular culture?
I have been a long-time viewer of HIMYM and, while I am of part Asian heritage, I do not believe that it is at all reasonable to be up in arms about the episode. It isn't the unproud and 'white-washed' that feel this way; instead, I feel that anyone who has taken offence has no appreciation of the clear homage to Hong Kong kung fu cinema or of humour. Such people have taken this far too seriously and are too sensitive.
As for daily life, I get no more and no less than your average person. Regarding popular culture, it is demonstrable that Asian people are not usually portrayed well, if they are even represented. In fact, another comedy television show that I watch, Community, made this precise comment in one of their more recent episodes.
No, that's pretty tame. I have people in downtown Beijing pointing right at my face (very rude in CHina but since I'm a foreigner all bets are off) saying in Chinese "FOREIGNER!" "Hey honey look at that white foreigner!" 外国人,外国人!
Iron Man 3 is a testament to the realization that its not cool to do yellowface or to harken back to time when it was the norm. The Mandarin is one of my favorite villains but his appearance, even in some modern works, is stereotypical. As soon as I saw IM3 I knew they'd changed the Mandarin to both erase his yellowface past and to make the movie sellable in China, which understandably dislikes ethnic stereotypes regarding Chinese people.
Most racism is subtle. Its a glance and the clutching of a purse. Its a snarl and putting your change on the counter and not in your hand. For me personally its what's called microaggressions. Like when someone says "You don't sound Black at all." or "I don't think of you as Black at all." or begins any sentence with "Why do Black people....?" or "I'm not racist but....". Just stop it. Please!
"Hey Joe" is perhaps the weirdest, and most unlikely, form of racism, and yet in PH it is a phrase that is by its very nature supposed to be racist.
Funniest thing is that they know its racist and they do it because it's 'fun' and 'cool' to poke at the foreigner this way, but if you confront them about it, they deny it, say that they dont mean it badly and that you are overreacting, and then proceed to say a few uncaring, and actually way more insulting, things in front of you in their language because they assume you don't understand (the idea of a foreigner, or a foreigner-looking person, knowing their language is so absolutely alien and impossible that it is deemed almost absurd).
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Apu from the Simpsons is probably the biggest racist character on TV today. You'd be amazed at how racist people are about Indians and how socially acceptable it is. I've literally had people joke to me that my wife's name is 'ali baba' or give me all sorts of stupid, insensitive and full-out racist nonsense.
"Hey Joe" is perhaps the weirdest, and most unlikely, form of racism, and yet in PH it is a phrase that is by its very nature supposed to be racist.
Funniest thing is that they know its racist and they do it because it's 'fun' and 'cool' to poke at the foreigner this way, but if you confront them about it, they deny it, say that they dont mean it badly and that you are overreacting, and then proceed to say a few uncaring, and actually way more insulting, things in front of you in their language because they assume you don't understand (the idea of a foreigner, or a foreigner-looking person, knowing their language is so absolutely alien and impossible that it is deemed almost absurd).
That's interesting. My wife is Filipino too and she and her family have informed me of another "racist" practice there. Apparentley, whenever a vendor or salesperson sees a foreigner (especially white or American), they assume their rich and automatically charge more for whatever they're selling. I'm not sure if it's true (I honestly kinda doubt it sometimes), but whenever they go to the dirty/wet market, a resort or anywhere really, they have me stay outside or far away so they don't get overcharged.
I deal with racism on a pretty frequent basis. Some of my relatives have this attitude of "there are people in the family who are black, so it's okay, we're not hating!" but hell, they say some really uncomfortable ****. It's especially uncomfortable, considering my fiance is black, so I'm just really worried about bringing her around the folks. It's weird, they don't mind me being with her and they think she's a nice woman, but they blurt out some things that'll make you double-take.
It's bad enough that when one of them says something relatively innocuous like "why are there so many black players in the NFL?" I can't help but think there's some sort of underlying racist comment in that question. It's not the question itself, it's the people asking the question. The worst thing in recent memory is calling Obama a "house ******." I mean, I have PLENTY of gripes against our current President, but really? You went straight for the racism on that one?
It's so beyond the pale, sometimes all I can do is just laugh. I don't think it's funny, I'm just so taken aback, I need some sort of emotional reaction that won't cause a rant for 20 minutes about how the latinos are taking over all of the white neighborhoods or white people are going to be an oppressed minority or something.
*edit
Ah, nvm. Missed the "it is particularly for anyone of any significant amount of Asian descent." Disregard my post.
That's interesting. My wife is Filipino too and she and her family have informed me of another "racist" practice there. Apparentley, whenever a vendor or salesperson sees a foreigner (especially white or American), they assume their rich and automatically charge more for whatever they're selling. I'm not sure if it's true (I honestly kinda doubt it sometimes), but whenever they go to the dirty/wet market, a resort or anywhere really, they have me stay outside or far away so they don't get overcharged.
I don't doubt this for a bit. This happens in Turkey, too, and Greece. Hell, they even rank people based on countries. If you walk into a Bazaar anywhere, and you're clearly an American tourist, expect to be charged more. Honestly, I've had more than few people tell me "Oh, it's for the stupid americans!" when talking about the price tag on some things.
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and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
As an Asian American, i have long felt that the race issue in America has been so often so fixated on black/white relations that Asian issues are usually ignored or glossed over.
I have no scientific explanation as to why, but I would guess it is a combination of factors: Asians represent a smaller percentage of the population than blacks or whites in the US, and Asians have tended historically to be a more insular set of communities than blacks or whites, and until recently have been less vocal toward outsiders about racism.
There are exceptions where racism toward (or from) Asians gets front page status, like the LA riots, gangster rap in the 90s, but by and large I still don't think it is a significant aspect of the public conscience in the US. Most people probably don't know, for example, that not only blacks but Koreans and other minorities had no voting rights in America until they were granted it during Civil Rights.
My personal perspective? I've been the subject of racial slurs plenty of times in my life, though I wouldn't say any more or less than anyone else. As for pop culture, I think there is a difference in intent, between racism and "How I Met your Mother". Racism is intentional. HIMYM isn't, though I think a strong argument could be made for it being a case of not thinking things through, and not stopping to ask "Will this offend? Is it ok?"
In my personal experience, those questions aren't asked as often with Asians. The cast of HIMYM wouldn't dream of donning blackface and "paying homage" to 70s blaxploitation films, but no one stopped to ask if yellowface and kung fu films would be fine. Granted, the politics and stigma of blackface/black race issues and yellowface/asian issues aren't the same, but my point is that (again, my personal experience and perspective) Americans don't even think to ask the question in regard to Asians, and for me that doesn't sit well.
This made my day. The best part was the one about fish and chips being great. On the actual topic though, would you prefer the brute honesty of human curiosity: "You're different, why?"
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
-A couple days ago I was replaying Mike Tyson's Punchout and I forgot how stereotypical Piston Honda was. This is what he said between rounds ""Sushi, Kamikaze, Fujiyama, Nipponichi..."
-I think the main reasons racism with Asians is not as discussed in the US as much is that the history of opression is not quite as deep, and the averages for things like grades and wealth are fairly high for Asian-Americans.
-I have lived in Asia for most of the year for the past 7 years, (mostly in Thailand but have spent decent amount of time in many Asian countries.) The amount of racism here completely dwarfs the amount in the USA. I'm not just talking about things like higher prices for foreigners either. The amount of negativity shown to many Africans and Middle Easterners is very very high. Even racial jokes are much more common in the areas of Asia I have traveled and lived than in anywhere I have lived in America.
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On the topic of Asian racism, I found this essay interesting.
As an Asian male student at MIT, I fit society's image of a young programmer. Thus, throughout college, nobody ever said to me (as they said to some other CS students I knew):
•“Well, you only got into MIT because you're an Asian boy.”
•(while struggling with a problem set) “Well, not everyone is cut out for computer science; have you considered majoring in bio?”
•(after being assigned to a class project team) “How about you just design the graphics while we handle the backend? It'll be easier for everyone that way.”
•“Are you sure you know how to do this?”
Although I started off as a complete novice (like everyone once was), I never faced any micro-inequities that impeded my intellectual growth.
I also think the concept of micro-inequities is helpful. i.e., racism (or sexism etc.) doesn't need to be blatant-in-your-face; it can be just as harmful as constant subtle reinforcement over a lifespan.
I'm predominately German and my wife is Chinese so our daughter is mixed. I have predominately lived in areas with diverse populations (Hawaii, San Francisco.)
I found blatant racism in Hawaii fairly commonly directed towards me (haole), but there were also common stereotypes about various Asian and Pacific Islander countries/islands of origin.
I haven't experienced any overt comments directed toward an Asian or white person in SF. I have overheard; however, overheard many overt racist comments directed towards Black individuals. Though, if I may stereotype, I believe those comments have predominately been made by non-SF residents.
I deal with racism on a pretty frequent basis. Some of my relatives have this attitude of "there are people in the family who are black, so it's okay, we're not hating!"
...
Ah, nvm. Missed the "it is particularly for anyone of any significant amount of Asian descent." Disregard my post.
Just signing in to say that this was fine. It is particularly but not exclusively for Asian-Americans or other Asian people. As long as it's on topic and discussed, but not Debate debated, in a mature and respectful manner, it's good.
Thanks for your reply and, to others, yours too.
Coffee and grapplingfarang, I appreciate your replies; they will be read a second time later. On that episode of HIMYM, I do not doubt that Carter [Bays] and Craig [Thomas] intended to offend anyone or portray or perpetuate stereotypes with malice, but it is disturbing that, besides the episode, the treatment of Asian-Americans or Asians is a non-issue and not considered and the dialogue is dominated by white (white American, not so much white European and white American)/black (black American, not African)/(Hispanic/Latino) issues. Interestingly, one comment on one website, from an Asian-American, suggested that "Asians don't need to be angry, when there are white people to be angry for us". I am not sure what to make out of that remark.
I honestly don't know much, and I'm not being self-deprecatory. I do intend to learn more, including on the racial history and relations of the US. However, I know that part of that reading will cover the US seeing the Californian gold rushes that brought over many Chinese immigrants (same in New Zealand and Australia), internment camps for the Japanese and residual resent over the Japanese role in WWII (same in Australia), and adoption of many Korean children following the Korean War.
Jay13x, though I thought of East and non-Indian South-East Asians, I guess. I know Iraq and India are sort of similar, they're not similar enough to confuse with each other. However, people don't care about those differences.
No, that's pretty tame. I have people in downtown Beijing pointing right at my face (very rude in CHina but since I'm a foreigner all bets are off) saying in Chinese "FOREIGNER!" "Hey honey look at that white foreigner!" 外国人,外国人!
Mate, that's crap but be thankful you're not in southern China, where you're still wai guo ren, as well as gwei lo or gwei sei or sei lo or ten thousand other pejoratives.
You can get that sort of hospitality or slightly subtler forms anywhere tbh.
/off-topic
Darkzephyr and Nodrog, sorry if you've made this clear elsewhere but are you white American?
Darkzephyr and Nodrog, sorry if you've made this clear elsewhere but are you white American?
I think I mentioned in a previous thread that my mother is 100% Scottish and my father's side hails from southern England and also a little Scotland as well. So, for all intents and purposes, yes I am a white American... to the point that m'lady teases me for being a few shades pinker than snow. : P
"Hey Joe" is perhaps the weirdest, and most unlikely, form of racism, and yet in PH it is a phrase that is by its very nature supposed to be racist.
My father went to Vet school in the Philippines, AND his name is Joe. He got so used to it, that he didn't respond when people were actually calling his name.
That's interesting. My wife is Filipino too and she and her family have informed me of another "racist" practice there. Apparentley, whenever a vendor or salesperson sees a foreigner (especially white or American), they assume their rich and automatically charge more for whatever they're selling. I'm not sure if it's true (I honestly kinda doubt it sometimes), but whenever they go to the dirty/wet market, a resort or anywhere really, they have me stay outside or far away so they don't get overcharged.
Oh its true its so very true and its incredibly sad, the fun part though is that they do this because:
1) they assume you dont know better.
2) they assume you dont know the language.
3) they assume your spouse will not make a scene if you are being blatantly ripped off.
when those conditions arent met they become incredibly apologetic at best or incredibly hostile at worst.
My father went to Vet school in the Philippines, AND his name is Joe. He got so used to it, that he didn't respond when people were actually calling his name.
It's really an odd thing really and even the history of it all is weird.
This all started because American's brought the TV show 'G.I. Joe' with them and the phrase "yo, joe!" became so catchy that people just started using it to call all american troops, the troops of the time found it hilarious so they even encouraged it, later on it somehow warped into being a derisive way of addressing a foreigner as if they didnt know where the name originated from.
Another thing, and this has nothing to do with racism but it bothers me to no end, over here in PH instead of actually calling someone's attention you go and do that "psst" sound and honestly i find it insulting and rude, but everyone acts like its nothing, but if you dare call someone over by their name they look at you like you are the rudest person ever.....
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Oh its true its so very true and its incredibly sad, the fun part though is that they do this because:
1) they assume you dont know better.
2) they assume you dont know the language.
3) they assume your spouse will not make a scene if you are being blatantly ripped off.
when those conditions arent met they become incredibly apologetic at best or incredibly hostile at worst.
So that's day-to-day then.
It's really an odd thing really and even the history of it all is weird.
This all started because American's brought the TV show 'G.I. Joe' with them and the phrase "yo, joe!" became so catchy that people just started using it to call all american troops, the troops of the time found it hilarious so they even encouraged it, later on it somehow warped into being a derisive way of addressing a foreigner as if they didnt know where the name originated from.
Another thing, and this has nothing to do with racism but it bothers me to no end, over here in PH instead of actually calling someone's attention you go and do that "psst" sound and honestly i find it insulting and rude, but everyone acts like its nothing, but if you dare call someone over by their name they look at you like you are the rudest person ever.....
Really, like kano, is that actually racist, offensive, or derisive? In fact, not only are they not racist, offensive, or derisive, but they are tears of endearment.
Hey, but it's the cant of your country (and the country where Jay's father's vet school is located) and you (guys) should know better.
It's really an odd thing really and even the history of it all is weird.
This all started because American's brought the TV show 'G.I. Joe' with them and the phrase "yo, joe!" became so catchy that people just started using it to call all american troops, the troops of the time found it hilarious so they even encouraged it, later on it somehow warped into being a derisive way of addressing a foreigner as if they didnt know where the name originated from.
Another thing, and this has nothing to do with racism but it bothers me to no end, over here in PH instead of actually calling someone's attention you go and do that "psst" sound and honestly i find it insulting and rude, but everyone acts like its nothing, but if you dare call someone over by their name they look at you like you are the rudest person ever.....
So that's day-to-day then.
Really, like kano, is that actually racist, offensive, or derisive? In fact, not only are they not racist, offensive, or derisive, but they are tears of endearment.
Hey, but it's the cant of your country (and the country where Jay's father's vet school is located) and you (guys) should know better.
That's actually not the origin of it. My father went to Vet school pre-G.I. Joe cartoon (you guys had only just gotten Pac-Man). G.I. Joe has been a generic term for American Infantry since WWI.
The history of this kind of thing originates with the American Colonialism period of the Philippines during the beginning of the 20th century. After kicking the Spanish out, the Americans decided to stay for a while. There was an insurgent movement and Americans largely abandoned their rule there to the Philippino government as they put down the insurgency, but we've had a military presence since WWII and they've more or less stayed our allies. But because their only major interaction with Americans have been through soldiers, they called the American troops 'Joe'. This was through WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Eventually, they just started calling all white people 'Joe', and I'm sure the GI Joe cartoon helped.
Well thats the explanantion i was given when i came here and first asked about it, interesting to see it goes further than that tho.
I have no idea about this 'kano' you mentioned, i have never been called that in all my years of stay here, but then again i have mostly stayed in only one of the 3 islands and not the capital one.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Ignore the fans having a melt-down because their idols were dissed. Look for the comments that are incredibly, overtly racist. There's a good number of them.
Asians are discriminated against. It's just under the radar and no one knows about it. Heck, it's so under the radar that it seemingly becomes unoffensive.
-A couple days ago I was replaying Mike Tyson's Punchout and I forgot how stereotypical Piston Honda was. This is what he said between rounds ""Sushi, Kamikaze, Fujiyama, Nipponichi..."
-I think the main reasons racism with Asians is not as discussed in the US as much is that the history of opression is not quite as deep, and the averages for things like grades and wealth are fairly high for Asian-Americans.
-I have lived in Asia for most of the year for the past 7 years, (mostly in Thailand but have spent decent amount of time in many Asian countries.) The amount of racism here completely dwarfs the amount in the USA. I'm not just talking about things like higher prices for foreigners either. The amount of negativity shown to many Africans and Middle Easterners is very very high. Even racial jokes are much more common in the areas of Asia I have traveled and lived than in anywhere I have lived in America.
I'm not sure you can exactly equate the same thing in Asia with racism over here. While I think the closest analogue to their form of stereotyping is what we would consider racist, you have to consider a few things differently.
1. In America, we are a melting pot. In Asian countries, the various nations actually have ethnic cultures and people that form the vast majority of their nations. These nations have their own people where people is an actual genetic lineage. (or plurality of accepted lineages)
You would never say, you are Black and therefore you can't be American.
But you might actually say, you are Black and therefore you can't be Thai.
2. The concept of being an "outsider" blurs the line of racial stereotyping as outright racism. In the states, we look at racial categorizations as stereotyping against certain races. In Asian nations, first and foremost in their mind is the idea that you as a different race are an outsider. You are not native to their land. They have no history of accepting immigrants en masse, and therefore the outsider term is very apt. You might be Black or Arab or White but first and foremost you are not one of them. And if they categorize your race, i think it has less to do with overt prejudice against your race and more with the idea that you are a stranger in their land and they do not know who or what you are.
3. These nations do not have the history of social evolution of America. Jim Crow laws, whites vs black, slavery in the triangular trade, the 14th amendment, Martin Luther King Jr. None of that existed in China, Japan, Thailand, Korea, Vietnam, etc.
What is a racial epithet without its historical stigma? Is it weakened? What if instead of a history of mistreatment, there is simply no history at all?
I'm not sure you can exactly equate the same thing in Asia with racism over here. While I think the closest analogue to their form of stereotyping is what we would consider racist, you have to consider a few things differently.
1. In America, we are a melting pot. In Asian countries, the various nations actually have ethnic cultures and people that form the vast majority of their nations. These nations have their own people where people is an actual genetic lineage. (or plurality of accepted lineages)
You would never say, you are Black and therefore you can't be American.
But you might actually say, you are Black and therefore you can't be Thai.
America is not the only multicultural country out there though. "You are Asian , therefore you can't be English or French or Norwegian". That sounds just as silly IMHO.
2. The concept of being an "outsider" blurs the line of racial stereotyping as outright racism. In the states, we look at racial categorizations as stereotyping against certain races. In Asian nations, first and foremost in their mind is the idea that you as a different race are an outsider. You are not native to their land. They have no history of accepting immigrants en masse, and therefore the outsider term is very apt. You might be Black or Arab or White but first and foremost you are not one of them. And if they categorize your race, i think it has less to do with overt prejudice against your race and more with the idea that you are a stranger in their land and they do not know who or what you are.
So it's out of fear and/or ignorance of people who are "not like us". This does not strike me as significantly different from any other kind of racism in the world honestly.
America is not the only multicultural country out there though. "You are Asian , therefore you can't be English or French or Norwegian". That sounds just as silly IMHO.
So it's out of fear and/or ignorance of people who are "not like us". This does not strike me as significantly different from any other kind of racism in the world honestly.
Yes it's fear and ignorance. But consider for a second. What impels these people from having to deal with you equally by race?
It's a funny question to ask, and one so fundamental you probably haven't considered it. But in a land, with no MLK, no need to remedy past racial injustices, no need to even coexist in racial harmony, no past two hundred years of racial relations, or even racial tensions for that matter, why would they go out of their way for a stranger/foreigner in their land?
If a stranger came over to your house/land and started off demanding not to be stereotyped what would you say to them?
Well you would probably look back your past two hundred years of racial injustice, indirectly insinuate how enlightened your people have become after overcoming the worst racial inequalities, and proceed to argue how you ought to be treated as an equal in their land.
These things are all true, and not having something like an MLK era is something I had not considered. However, one thing that I would like to point out is that when I am talking about racism in Asia, I am not really comparing local to foreigner. I am comparing the treatment of foreigners of European Descent to foreigners of African, Middle Eastern, or Indian Descent.
I'm not sure you can exactly equate the same thing in Asia with racism over here. While I think the closest analogue to their form of stereotyping is what we would consider racist, you have to consider a few things differently.
1. In America, we are a melting pot. In Asian countries, the various nations actually have ethnic cultures and people that form the vast majority of their nations. These nations have their own people where people is an actual genetic lineage. (or plurality of accepted lineages)
You would never say, you are Black and therefore you can't be American.
But you might actually say, you are Black and therefore you can't be Thai.
2. The concept of being an "outsider" blurs the line of racial stereotyping as outright racism. In the states, we look at racial categorizations as stereotyping against certain races. In Asian nations, first and foremost in their mind is the idea that you as a different race are an outsider. You are not native to their land. They have no history of accepting immigrants en masse, and therefore the outsider term is very apt. You might be Black or Arab or White but first and foremost you are not one of them. And if they categorize your race, i think it has less to do with overt prejudice against your race and more with the idea that you are a stranger in their land and they do not know who or what you are.
3. These nations do not have the history of social evolution of America. Jim Crow laws, whites vs black, slavery in the triangular trade, the 14th amendment, Martin Luther King Jr. None of that existed in China, Japan, Thailand, Korea, Vietnam, etc.
What is a racial epithet without its historical stigma? Is it weakened? What if instead of a history of mistreatment, there is simply no history at all?
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What is 'racism'? When is 'racism' racism?
To put this into some context, for instance, recently, there has been some furore over an episode of the comedy How I Met Your Mother (episode title: "Slapsgiving 3: Slappointment in Slapmarra"). Media all over the world have reported on the episode (e.g., the BBC), and there has even been a Twitter hash-tag thing going on (#howimetyourracism).
For anyone that has actually viewed the episode, do you believe the episode has any notable racism? How much? Why? (Are you Asian? If so, how much so?)
What can you comment on racism in daily life as well as in popular culture?
I have been a long-time viewer of HIMYM and, while I am of part Asian heritage, I do not believe that it is at all reasonable to be up in arms about the episode. It isn't the unproud and 'white-washed' that feel this way; instead, I feel that anyone who has taken offence has no appreciation of the clear homage to Hong Kong kung fu cinema or of humour. Such people have taken this far too seriously and are too sensitive.
As for daily life, I get no more and no less than your average person. Regarding popular culture, it is demonstrable that Asian people are not usually portrayed well, if they are even represented. In fact, another comedy television show that I watch, Community, made this precise comment in one of their more recent episodes.
Most racism is subtle. Its a glance and the clutching of a purse. Its a snarl and putting your change on the counter and not in your hand. For me personally its what's called microaggressions. Like when someone says "You don't sound Black at all." or "I don't think of you as Black at all." or begins any sentence with "Why do Black people....?" or "I'm not racist but....". Just stop it. Please!
Funniest thing is that they know its racist and they do it because it's 'fun' and 'cool' to poke at the foreigner this way, but if you confront them about it, they deny it, say that they dont mean it badly and that you are overreacting, and then proceed to say a few uncaring, and actually way more insulting, things in front of you in their language because they assume you don't understand (the idea of a foreigner, or a foreigner-looking person, knowing their language is so absolutely alien and impossible that it is deemed almost absurd).
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That's interesting. My wife is Filipino too and she and her family have informed me of another "racist" practice there. Apparentley, whenever a vendor or salesperson sees a foreigner (especially white or American), they assume their rich and automatically charge more for whatever they're selling. I'm not sure if it's true (I honestly kinda doubt it sometimes), but whenever they go to the dirty/wet market, a resort or anywhere really, they have me stay outside or far away so they don't get overcharged.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
It's bad enough that when one of them says something relatively innocuous like "why are there so many black players in the NFL?" I can't help but think there's some sort of underlying racist comment in that question. It's not the question itself, it's the people asking the question. The worst thing in recent memory is calling Obama a "house ******." I mean, I have PLENTY of gripes against our current President, but really? You went straight for the racism on that one?
It's so beyond the pale, sometimes all I can do is just laugh. I don't think it's funny, I'm just so taken aback, I need some sort of emotional reaction that won't cause a rant for 20 minutes about how the latinos are taking over all of the white neighborhoods or white people are going to be an oppressed minority or something.
*edit
Ah, nvm. Missed the "it is particularly for anyone of any significant amount of Asian descent." Disregard my post.
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I don't doubt this for a bit. This happens in Turkey, too, and Greece. Hell, they even rank people based on countries. If you walk into a Bazaar anywhere, and you're clearly an American tourist, expect to be charged more. Honestly, I've had more than few people tell me "Oh, it's for the stupid americans!" when talking about the price tag on some things.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I have no scientific explanation as to why, but I would guess it is a combination of factors: Asians represent a smaller percentage of the population than blacks or whites in the US, and Asians have tended historically to be a more insular set of communities than blacks or whites, and until recently have been less vocal toward outsiders about racism.
There are exceptions where racism toward (or from) Asians gets front page status, like the LA riots, gangster rap in the 90s, but by and large I still don't think it is a significant aspect of the public conscience in the US. Most people probably don't know, for example, that not only blacks but Koreans and other minorities had no voting rights in America until they were granted it during Civil Rights.
My personal perspective? I've been the subject of racial slurs plenty of times in my life, though I wouldn't say any more or less than anyone else. As for pop culture, I think there is a difference in intent, between racism and "How I Met your Mother". Racism is intentional. HIMYM isn't, though I think a strong argument could be made for it being a case of not thinking things through, and not stopping to ask "Will this offend? Is it ok?"
In my personal experience, those questions aren't asked as often with Asians. The cast of HIMYM wouldn't dream of donning blackface and "paying homage" to 70s blaxploitation films, but no one stopped to ask if yellowface and kung fu films would be fine. Granted, the politics and stigma of blackface/black race issues and yellowface/asian issues aren't the same, but my point is that (again, my personal experience and perspective) Americans don't even think to ask the question in regard to Asians, and for me that doesn't sit well.
On a lighter note, the story of my life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWynJkN5HbQ
edit: and Bitsy, in regard to "I'm not racist but"
http://i.imgur.com/D5wpGUI.jpg
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This made my day. The best part was the one about fish and chips being great. On the actual topic though, would you prefer the brute honesty of human curiosity: "You're different, why?"
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
-A couple days ago I was replaying Mike Tyson's Punchout and I forgot how stereotypical Piston Honda was. This is what he said between rounds ""Sushi, Kamikaze, Fujiyama, Nipponichi..."
-I think the main reasons racism with Asians is not as discussed in the US as much is that the history of opression is not quite as deep, and the averages for things like grades and wealth are fairly high for Asian-Americans.
-I have lived in Asia for most of the year for the past 7 years, (mostly in Thailand but have spent decent amount of time in many Asian countries.) The amount of racism here completely dwarfs the amount in the USA. I'm not just talking about things like higher prices for foreigners either. The amount of negativity shown to many Africans and Middle Easterners is very very high. Even racial jokes are much more common in the areas of Asia I have traveled and lived than in anywhere I have lived in America.
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On the topic of Asian racism, I found this essay interesting.
I also think the concept of micro-inequities is helpful. i.e., racism (or sexism etc.) doesn't need to be blatant-in-your-face; it can be just as harmful as constant subtle reinforcement over a lifespan.
I found blatant racism in Hawaii fairly commonly directed towards me (haole), but there were also common stereotypes about various Asian and Pacific Islander countries/islands of origin.
I haven't experienced any overt comments directed toward an Asian or white person in SF. I have overheard; however, overheard many overt racist comments directed towards Black individuals. Though, if I may stereotype, I believe those comments have predominately been made by non-SF residents.
Just signing in to say that this was fine. It is particularly but not exclusively for Asian-Americans or other Asian people. As long as it's on topic and discussed, but not Debate debated, in a mature and respectful manner, it's good.
Thanks for your reply and, to others, yours too.
Coffee and grapplingfarang, I appreciate your replies; they will be read a second time later. On that episode of HIMYM, I do not doubt that Carter [Bays] and Craig [Thomas] intended to offend anyone or portray or perpetuate stereotypes with malice, but it is disturbing that, besides the episode, the treatment of Asian-Americans or Asians is a non-issue and not considered and the dialogue is dominated by white (white American, not so much white European and white American)/black (black American, not African)/(Hispanic/Latino) issues. Interestingly, one comment on one website, from an Asian-American, suggested that "Asians don't need to be angry, when there are white people to be angry for us". I am not sure what to make out of that remark.
I honestly don't know much, and I'm not being self-deprecatory. I do intend to learn more, including on the racial history and relations of the US. However, I know that part of that reading will cover the US seeing the Californian gold rushes that brought over many Chinese immigrants (same in New Zealand and Australia), internment camps for the Japanese and residual resent over the Japanese role in WWII (same in Australia), and adoption of many Korean children following the Korean War.
Jay13x, though I thought of East and non-Indian South-East Asians, I guess. I know Iraq and India are sort of similar, they're not similar enough to confuse with each other. However, people don't care about those differences.
Mate, that's crap but be thankful you're not in southern China, where you're still wai guo ren, as well as gwei lo or gwei sei or sei lo or ten thousand other pejoratives.
You can get that sort of hospitality or slightly subtler forms anywhere tbh.
/off-topic
Darkzephyr and Nodrog, sorry if you've made this clear elsewhere but are you white American?
I think I mentioned in a previous thread that my mother is 100% Scottish and my father's side hails from southern England and also a little Scotland as well. So, for all intents and purposes, yes I am a white American... to the point that m'lady teases me for being a few shades pinker than snow. : P
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This made my day. Thanks for posting =D
My father went to Vet school in the Philippines, AND his name is Joe. He got so used to it, that he didn't respond when people were actually calling his name.
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Oh its true its so very true and its incredibly sad, the fun part though is that they do this because:
1) they assume you dont know better.
2) they assume you dont know the language.
3) they assume your spouse will not make a scene if you are being blatantly ripped off.
when those conditions arent met they become incredibly apologetic at best or incredibly hostile at worst.
It's really an odd thing really and even the history of it all is weird.
This all started because American's brought the TV show 'G.I. Joe' with them and the phrase "yo, joe!" became so catchy that people just started using it to call all american troops, the troops of the time found it hilarious so they even encouraged it, later on it somehow warped into being a derisive way of addressing a foreigner as if they didnt know where the name originated from.
Another thing, and this has nothing to do with racism but it bothers me to no end, over here in PH instead of actually calling someone's attention you go and do that "psst" sound and honestly i find it insulting and rude, but everyone acts like its nothing, but if you dare call someone over by their name they look at you like you are the rudest person ever.....
Really, like kano, is that actually racist, offensive, or derisive? In fact, not only are they not racist, offensive, or derisive, but they are tears of endearment.
Hey, but it's the cant of your country (and the country where Jay's father's vet school is located) and you (guys) should know better.
That's actually not the origin of it. My father went to Vet school pre-G.I. Joe cartoon (you guys had only just gotten Pac-Man). G.I. Joe has been a generic term for American Infantry since WWI.
The history of this kind of thing originates with the American Colonialism period of the Philippines during the beginning of the 20th century. After kicking the Spanish out, the Americans decided to stay for a while. There was an insurgent movement and Americans largely abandoned their rule there to the Philippino government as they put down the insurgency, but we've had a military presence since WWII and they've more or less stayed our allies. But because their only major interaction with Americans have been through soldiers, they called the American troops 'Joe'. This was through WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Eventually, they just started calling all white people 'Joe', and I'm sure the GI Joe cartoon helped.
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I have no idea about this 'kano' you mentioned, i have never been called that in all my years of stay here, but then again i have mostly stayed in only one of the 3 islands and not the capital one.
Not compared to this-
http://jezebel.com/teens-are-having-a-racist-meltdown-over-lordes-ugly-1479815260
Ignore the fans having a melt-down because their idols were dissed. Look for the comments that are incredibly, overtly racist. There's a good number of them.
Asians are discriminated against. It's just under the radar and no one knows about it. Heck, it's so under the radar that it seemingly becomes unoffensive.
I'm not sure you can exactly equate the same thing in Asia with racism over here. While I think the closest analogue to their form of stereotyping is what we would consider racist, you have to consider a few things differently.
1. In America, we are a melting pot. In Asian countries, the various nations actually have ethnic cultures and people that form the vast majority of their nations. These nations have their own people where people is an actual genetic lineage. (or plurality of accepted lineages)
You would never say, you are Black and therefore you can't be American.
But you might actually say, you are Black and therefore you can't be Thai.
2. The concept of being an "outsider" blurs the line of racial stereotyping as outright racism. In the states, we look at racial categorizations as stereotyping against certain races. In Asian nations, first and foremost in their mind is the idea that you as a different race are an outsider. You are not native to their land. They have no history of accepting immigrants en masse, and therefore the outsider term is very apt. You might be Black or Arab or White but first and foremost you are not one of them. And if they categorize your race, i think it has less to do with overt prejudice against your race and more with the idea that you are a stranger in their land and they do not know who or what you are.
3. These nations do not have the history of social evolution of America. Jim Crow laws, whites vs black, slavery in the triangular trade, the 14th amendment, Martin Luther King Jr. None of that existed in China, Japan, Thailand, Korea, Vietnam, etc.
What is a racial epithet without its historical stigma? Is it weakened? What if instead of a history of mistreatment, there is simply no history at all?
America is not the only multicultural country out there though. "You are Asian , therefore you can't be English or French or Norwegian". That sounds just as silly IMHO.
So it's out of fear and/or ignorance of people who are "not like us". This does not strike me as significantly different from any other kind of racism in the world honestly.
Yes it's fear and ignorance. But consider for a second. What impels these people from having to deal with you equally by race?
It's a funny question to ask, and one so fundamental you probably haven't considered it. But in a land, with no MLK, no need to remedy past racial injustices, no need to even coexist in racial harmony, no past two hundred years of racial relations, or even racial tensions for that matter, why would they go out of their way for a stranger/foreigner in their land?
If a stranger came over to your house/land and started off demanding not to be stereotyped what would you say to them?
Well you would probably look back your past two hundred years of racial injustice, indirectly insinuate how enlightened your people have become after overcoming the worst racial inequalities, and proceed to argue how you ought to be treated as an equal in their land.
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