The only reason to reprint ally fetches that I have heard is to improve mana fixing of two color decks, but that ignores the fact that the improvement is minimal over what they have now, whereas the improvement for 3 color decks would be much higher. As 3 color decks get better mana, 1 and 2 color decks get much worse because there is no reason not to splash. If they introduce allied fetches it will make 2 color decks worse and only exacerbate the current problem that mana fixing in Modern is too good for noncombo 2 color decks to compete.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
This is a big blob of text that is just unrelated to the post:
Because it's rather nonsensical that enemy colors get superior mana fixing.
You think that mana fixing is already too good? That's a perfectly valid point to try to argue. However, it is not at all related to the comment that enemy fixing is currently better.
The only reason to reprint ally fetches that I have heard is to improve mana fixing of two color decks, but that ignores the fact that the improvement is minimal over what they have now, whereas the improvement for 3 color decks would be much higher. As 3 color decks get better mana, 1 and 2 color decks get much worse because there is no reason not to splash. If they introduce allied fetches it will make 2 color decks worse and only exacerbate the current problem that mana fixing in Modern is too good for noncombo 2 color decks to compete.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
This is a big blob of text that is just unrelated to the post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Because it's rather nonsensical that enemy colors get superior mana fixing.
You think that mana fixing is already too good? That's a perfectly valid point to try to argue. However, it is completely unrelated to the comment that enemy fixing is currently better.
Context is key. Follow the line of posts and you'll see my post is entirely relevant to his post.
All right, I think there are a couple of different things being discussed, which is why the last couple of posts may not seem related to one another. Allow me to summarize:
1. Yes, the manabase in Modern is already very good.
2. However, making the allied fetchlands in Modern will make it so allied colors now have just as good a manabase as enemy colors.
3. No, having shocklands and fetchlands in Standard is not a good idea and would make manabases insane (for Standard's power level).
4. Therefore, the fetchlands will NOT be in Magic 2015.
5. Wizards want to make affordable, and only want new cards to enter Modern from standard sets. And to add to that, if allied-fetchlands are also to be reprinted, the fetchlands are more likely to be in Huey-Duey-Louie than in Modern Masters 2.
Your entire point is that you can get duals or basics. That's not true in Standard where you can only get basics. When you can only get basics they are terrible fixing.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
May I direct you over to any standard format that included zendikar or onslaught. Fetches did see play, and plenty of it
May I direct you over to any standard format that included zendikar or onslaught. Fetches did see play, and plenty of it
Standard uses whatever manafixing is available.
Now, this isn't to say the fetches aren't great, they are, and far superior than most (Shocks and Filters are the only ones on par). However 'use in standard' isn't really evidence.
Your entire point is that you can get duals or basics. That's not true in Standard where you can only get basics. When you can only get basics they are terrible fixing.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
May I direct you over to any standard format that included zendikar or onslaught. Fetches did see play, and plenty of it
You're kidding me? You mean they saw significant play when they were one of only 2 available options? I'm flabbergasted.
Of course they did. In comparison to nearly every other dual land they are still terrible fixers though. They can only ever fix one color at a time. They're pribably better than most CIPT lands, but certainly not all (manlands, maybe scrylands). You play then in standard because you have to, but that does not make them good.
You're kidding me? You mean they saw significant play when they were one of only 2 available options? I'm flabbergasted.
Of course they did. In comparison to nearly every other dual land they are still terrible fixers though. They can only ever fix one color at a time. They're pribably better than most CIPT lands, but certainly not all (manlands, maybe scrylands). You play then in standard because you have to, but that does not make them good.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
There are three advantages the Fetches have over most duallands.
1. Keeping to curve (they enter untapped and search a land untapped).
Shocks can do this at twice the damage to yourself (when needed), filters/checklands do this provided you have another land T1, fastlands do this early game. The original duallands are the only thing superior to everything in this regard, and they are NEVER COMING BACK.
2. Deck Thinning/Non-basic land hate (if you snatch up a basic land you've prevented yourself drawing a basic land, and anything that goes after non-basic lands won't work on a fetch if you bring out a basic).
The basic only searchlands like Evolving Wilds can do this, but that's it.
3. The hideous and overly effective combo with Shocklands.
This is the only land that does this. Shocklands + Checklands is the only thing that comes close to that level of synergy.
So fetchlands, on their own, are uniquely effective cards without the Shockland synergy. Putting them well above most lands in Modern. Their effectiveness is not really in question, the question is are they too strong for Standard. I would say no, but at the same time Wizards doesn't want 'loading screens' in game.
You're kidding me? You mean they saw significant play when they were one of only 2 available options? I'm flabbergasted.
Of course they did. In comparison to nearly every other dual land they are still terrible fixers though. They can only ever fix one color at a time. They're pribably better than most CIPT lands, but certainly not all (manlands, maybe scrylands). You play then in standard because you have to, but that does not make them good.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
There are three advantages the Fetches have over most duallands.
1. Keeping to curve (they enter untapped and search a land untapped).
Shocks can do this at twice the damage to yourself (when needed), filters/checklands do this provided you have another land T1, fastlands do this early game. The original duallands are the only thing superior to everything in this regard, and they are NEVER COMING BACK.
2. Deck Thinning/Non-basic land hate (if you snatch up a basic land you've prevented yourself drawing a basic land, and anything that goes after non-basic lands won't work on a fetch if you bring out a basic).
The basic only searchlands like Evolving Wilds can do this, but that's it.
3. The hideous and overly effective combo with Shocklands.
This is the only land that does this. Shocklands + Checklands is the only thing that comes close to that level of synergy.
So fetchlands, on their own, are uniquely effective cards without the Shockland synergy. Putting them well above most lands in Modern. Their effectiveness is not really in question, the question is are they too strong for Standard. I would say no, but at the same time Wizards doesn't want 'loading screens' in game.
3 is irrelevant. That only leaves 1 and 2. Deck thinning is negligible. There are many who have run the numbers and shown this. Nonbasic land hate is essentially nonexistent in Standard anymore, and when it is printed is so bad you can't play it anyway.
They are better than CIPT lands as for curve consideration, but once cracked you lose out on any fixing provided mean they are terrible to fix mana overall. Scry lands may hurt your curve some, but are better fixers, and scrying is much better than thinning.
tl;dr - Anyone who argues fetches are good mana fixers are diluting themselves because they so want cheap fetches they are willing to make any asinine argument to rationalize their printing on Standard.
1. Fetches are extremely good in Modern because you have the option to fetch basics or shocklands
2. Fetches are okay in Standard because generally you only have around 2 or 3 kinds of dual lands anyways, so people who play multicolor decks would still use them.
Since we have all convinced ourselves that fetches are coming soon, in one way shape or form, what would you do if 2 years from now, we still don't have reprints of the fetches?
I plan to cry and be butthurt mostly. I plan to look at my UWR Modern deck that has everything it needs besides for fetches, and then yell at it for not being good enough.
Since we have all convinced ourselves that fetches are coming soon, in one way shape or form, what would you do if 2 years from now, we still don't have reprints of the fetches?
I plan to cry and be butthurt mostly. I plan to look at my UWR Modern deck that has everything it needs besides for fetches, and then yell at it for not being good enough.
I would be extremely disappointed if they didn't print enough fetchlands in supplemental products to halve the price in the next year and a half.
3 is irrelevant. That only leaves 1 and 2. Deck thinning is negligible. There are many who have run the numbers and shown this. Nonbasic land hate is essentially nonexistent in Standard anymore, and when it is printed is so bad you can't play it anyway.
They are better than CIPT lands as for curve consideration, but once cracked you lose out on any fixing provided mean they are terrible to fix mana overall. Scry lands may hurt your curve some, but are better fixers, and scrying is much better than thinning.
tl;dr - Anyone who argues fetches are good mana fixers are diluting themselves because they so want cheap fetches they are willing to make any asinine argument to rationalize their printing on Standard.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
You're missing a vital thing about reprinting the Fetchlands, due to the new standard practices of Wizards when it comes to landbases, all ten two color pairs must be accounted for in Standard. Meaning this issue is not about the impacts specifically on Standard, but on the impact that printing the AllyFetches into Modern bring. Which makes 3 more than relevant once Modern is involved.
As for Standard, the loss of options hitting either color is irrelevant unless the Standard also has a heavy focus on two color weight. And even then proper understanding of your deck and requirements makes this a non-issue in two colors.
If you start your game out with 3 lands (as is the standard landcount you want in your opening hand) there is no combination that should lead you to picking wrong with a Fetchland unless you've overloaded the deck in both color directions:
For instance, let's say you're running Azorious control. And your Opening hand has two basic lands, and Flooded Strand:
Plains, Plains, Strand: You pick Island, because you won't need 3 White Symbols.
Island, Island, Strand: You pick Plains, because you won't need 3 Blue Symbols.
Plains, Island, Strand: You pick Island if you're against another control deck to hit Dissolve, you pick Plains against aggro or midrange to hit Supreme Verdict.
You don't concern yourself with Elspeth, Aetherling, or Sphinx's Revelation because they are all later game cards. If Jace is already at hand, you naturally go for the two blue to hit him on T4.
In any two color deck knowing your cards and knowing how many things require what mana symbols in play makes it easy. Three color decks don't like fetchlands unless paired with Shocks (or possibly Checklands, but there's never been a format where that combo is an option without shocklands).
If you start with two lands, one being a fetch, you search for the basic land you don't have unless you have a very good reason to ignore that other color. If you start with one land, you should be mulliganing, or if your other land is a Mutavault you decide based on the other cards in your hand and what you know of their deck to decide which land to fetch.
Why would all ten two-color pairs need to be accounted for? I keep seeing people say that, but the statement was really more "we're going to support enemy-color pairs to the extent we support allied-color pairs", not that they'd be supported exactly the same always and everywhere.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
EDH: Captain Sisay Tokens
Standard: White Weenie :symw:, UW Control:symwu:
Because Wizards stopped making 5 card land cycles.
I don't know if you can really say they've "stopped" doing something with one block in the books since the announcement of equal support for color pairs. There are good reasons to support all ten color pairs while RTR is still in Standard, but that doesn't make it an eternal truth.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
EDH: Captain Sisay Tokens
Standard: White Weenie :symw:, UW Control:symwu:
Because Wizards stopped making 5 card land cycles.
I don't know if you can really say they've "stopped" doing something with one block in the books since the announcement of equal support for color pairs. There are good reasons to support all ten color pairs while RTR is still in Standard, but that doesn't make it an eternal truth.
They did say they were going to support all color pairs when they print duals in Standard from now on. For the more diluted of Salvation who look for any possible reason to speculate that fetches will be reprinted in Standard this is confirmation that fetches are getting reprinted in Standard.
Since we have all convinced ourselves that fetches are coming soon, in one way shape or form, what would you do if 2 years from now, we still don't have reprints of the fetches?
I plan to cry and be butthurt mostly. I plan to look at my UWR Modern deck that has everything it needs besides for fetches, and then yell at it for not being good enough.
I would continue to only play kitchen-table Modern without fetchlands.
What makes this guy creditable? While I do think wizards will reprint all 10 some time in the future the when is the question mark. I don't see any evidence at all other than what a lot players have probably assumed. They will be printed again but we don't know when. I see nothing here that has a really good indicator of when.
Since we have all convinced ourselves that fetches are coming soon, in one way shape or form, what would you do if 2 years from now, we still don't have reprints of the fetches?
I plan to cry and be butthurt mostly. I plan to look at my UWR Modern deck that has everything it needs besides for fetches, and then yell at it for not being good enough.
I'm surprised no one has said "fetches in Conspiracy!!1!" yet.
They aren't the most exciting Limited Rares,
but WotC are always looking for ways to sell casual products to non-casual players.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'm surprised no one has said "fetches in Conspiracy!!1!" yet.
They aren't the most exciting Limited Rares,
but WotC are always looking for ways to sell casual products to non-casual players.
If you're hoping to build a cheaper deck,
you better get your copies of Karn Liberated now if you haven't already.
Ditto Wurmcoil Engine and Eldrazi.
I already have tron built, so that's not a problem
Fetches without basic typed duals are so mediocre, I'd take Invasion taplands over them if the format is slow enough. They're massively overplayed in standard just because people have the idea in their heads that playable nonbasic land means you should auto shove it in instead of a basic in every deck possible. They are legitimately good for things like landfall or Brainstorm, but the microscopic deck thinning isn't really worth one life in monocolor.
Fetches without basic typed duals are so mediocre, I'd take Invasion taplands over them if the format is slow enough. They're massively overplayed in standard just because people have the idea in their heads that playable nonbasic land means you should auto shove it in instead of a basic in every deck possible. They are legitimately good for things like landfall or Brainstorm, but the microscopic deck thinning isn't really worth one life in monocolor.
If you're running Monocolor the only dualland worth playing are the Scrylands or Manlands. Otherwise everything is inferior to basic lands, as you only need the one color.
And if the format was slow enough, yes, the Taplands are fine. Except that the Scrylands, Zendikar Lifelands, and the Manlands are all better by default than the Invasion Taplands. Technically even the Guildgates are better than the Invasion Taps, simply because Gate is sometimes relevant.
If you're running Monocolor the only dualland worth playing are the Scrylands or Manlands. Otherwise everything is inferior to basic lands, as you only need the one color.
And if the format was slow enough, yes, the Taplands are fine. Except that the Scrylands, Zendikar Lifelands, and the Manlands are all better by default than the Invasion Taplands. Technically even the Guildgates are better than the Invasion Taps, simply because Gate is sometimes relevant.
Modern will also never be that slow.
Maybe if they unban jace, misstep, vision, sword, blossom, and ban all the fast combo deck cards as well as dr s
Those of us telling you they're going to reprint enemy-colored fetchlands had quoted WotC before about their change of thinking with regards to full 10-color cycles. I just want to note that this new philosophy was repeated AGAIN in MaRo's recent Making Magic: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/285
Development was interested in having scry dual lands. Over the last five years, R&D has made a big shift in how we think about ally and enemy colors. While we still like some cards that help allies or hurt enemies, we've shifted our thoughts about the mana for two-color decks.
Back in the day, we always made ally dual lands easier to acquire than enemy ones. The thought process was that ally colors should be easier to play as it matched the flavor of the color pie. As time has marched on, we realized something important. Restricting enemy dual lands just meant it was harder to play enemy colors and that it limited what players were able to play.
That was making the game less fun and for what trade-off? To slightly further the flavor of allies and enemies. We decided it wasn't worth it and now are more conscious to try and get all ten color pair dual lands. This was just my lengthy way of saying that development wanted the block to have all ten scry lands.
Onslaught fetchlands coming to Modern is inevitable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is a big blob of text that is just unrelated to the post:
You think that mana fixing is already too good? That's a perfectly valid point to try to argue. However, it is not at all related to the comment that enemy fixing is currently better.
Context is key. Follow the line of posts and you'll see my post is entirely relevant to his post.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
1. Yes, the manabase in Modern is already very good.
2. However, making the allied fetchlands in Modern will make it so allied colors now have just as good a manabase as enemy colors.
3. No, having shocklands and fetchlands in Standard is not a good idea and would make manabases insane (for Standard's power level).
4. Therefore, the fetchlands will NOT be in Magic 2015.
5. Wizards want to make affordable, and only want new cards to enter Modern from standard sets. And to add to that, if allied-fetchlands are also to be reprinted, the fetchlands are more likely to be in Huey-Duey-Louie than in Modern Masters 2.
May I direct you over to any standard format that included zendikar or onslaught. Fetches did see play, and plenty of it
Standard uses whatever manafixing is available.
Now, this isn't to say the fetches aren't great, they are, and far superior than most (Shocks and Filters are the only ones on par). However 'use in standard' isn't really evidence.
You're kidding me? You mean they saw significant play when they were one of only 2 available options? I'm flabbergasted.
Of course they did. In comparison to nearly every other dual land they are still terrible fixers though. They can only ever fix one color at a time. They're pribably better than most CIPT lands, but certainly not all (manlands, maybe scrylands). You play then in standard because you have to, but that does not make them good.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
There are three advantages the Fetches have over most duallands.
1. Keeping to curve (they enter untapped and search a land untapped).
Shocks can do this at twice the damage to yourself (when needed), filters/checklands do this provided you have another land T1, fastlands do this early game. The original duallands are the only thing superior to everything in this regard, and they are NEVER COMING BACK.
2. Deck Thinning/Non-basic land hate (if you snatch up a basic land you've prevented yourself drawing a basic land, and anything that goes after non-basic lands won't work on a fetch if you bring out a basic).
The basic only searchlands like Evolving Wilds can do this, but that's it.
3. The hideous and overly effective combo with Shocklands.
This is the only land that does this. Shocklands + Checklands is the only thing that comes close to that level of synergy.
So fetchlands, on their own, are uniquely effective cards without the Shockland synergy. Putting them well above most lands in Modern. Their effectiveness is not really in question, the question is are they too strong for Standard. I would say no, but at the same time Wizards doesn't want 'loading screens' in game.
3 is irrelevant. That only leaves 1 and 2. Deck thinning is negligible. There are many who have run the numbers and shown this. Nonbasic land hate is essentially nonexistent in Standard anymore, and when it is printed is so bad you can't play it anyway.
They are better than CIPT lands as for curve consideration, but once cracked you lose out on any fixing provided mean they are terrible to fix mana overall. Scry lands may hurt your curve some, but are better fixers, and scrying is much better than thinning.
tl;dr - Anyone who argues fetches are good mana fixers are diluting themselves because they so want cheap fetches they are willing to make any asinine argument to rationalize their printing on Standard.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
1. Fetches are extremely good in Modern because you have the option to fetch basics or shocklands
2. Fetches are okay in Standard because generally you only have around 2 or 3 kinds of dual lands anyways, so people who play multicolor decks would still use them.
I plan to cry and be butthurt mostly. I plan to look at my UWR Modern deck that has everything it needs besides for fetches, and then yell at it for not being good enough.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
I would be extremely disappointed if they didn't print enough fetchlands in supplemental products to halve the price in the next year and a half.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
You're missing a vital thing about reprinting the Fetchlands, due to the new standard practices of Wizards when it comes to landbases, all ten two color pairs must be accounted for in Standard. Meaning this issue is not about the impacts specifically on Standard, but on the impact that printing the AllyFetches into Modern bring. Which makes 3 more than relevant once Modern is involved.
As for Standard, the loss of options hitting either color is irrelevant unless the Standard also has a heavy focus on two color weight. And even then proper understanding of your deck and requirements makes this a non-issue in two colors.
If you start your game out with 3 lands (as is the standard landcount you want in your opening hand) there is no combination that should lead you to picking wrong with a Fetchland unless you've overloaded the deck in both color directions:
For instance, let's say you're running Azorious control. And your Opening hand has two basic lands, and Flooded Strand:
Plains, Plains, Strand: You pick Island, because you won't need 3 White Symbols.
Island, Island, Strand: You pick Plains, because you won't need 3 Blue Symbols.
Plains, Island, Strand: You pick Island if you're against another control deck to hit Dissolve, you pick Plains against aggro or midrange to hit Supreme Verdict.
You don't concern yourself with Elspeth, Aetherling, or Sphinx's Revelation because they are all later game cards. If Jace is already at hand, you naturally go for the two blue to hit him on T4.
In any two color deck knowing your cards and knowing how many things require what mana symbols in play makes it easy. Three color decks don't like fetchlands unless paired with Shocks (or possibly Checklands, but there's never been a format where that combo is an option without shocklands).
If you start with two lands, one being a fetch, you search for the basic land you don't have unless you have a very good reason to ignore that other color. If you start with one land, you should be mulliganing, or if your other land is a Mutavault you decide based on the other cards in your hand and what you know of their deck to decide which land to fetch.
It takes thought, but it isn't that hard.
EDH: Captain Sisay Tokens
Standard: White Weenie :symw:, UW Control:symwu:
Because Wizards stopped making 5 card land cycles.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't know if you can really say they've "stopped" doing something with one block in the books since the announcement of equal support for color pairs. There are good reasons to support all ten color pairs while RTR is still in Standard, but that doesn't make it an eternal truth.
EDH: Captain Sisay Tokens
Standard: White Weenie :symw:, UW Control:symwu:
They did say they were going to support all color pairs when they print duals in Standard from now on. For the more diluted of Salvation who look for any possible reason to speculate that fetches will be reprinted in Standard this is confirmation that fetches are getting reprinted in Standard.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I would continue to only play kitchen-table Modern without fetchlands.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I'll probably play Tron
They aren't the most exciting Limited Rares,
but WotC are always looking for ways to sell casual products to non-casual players.
If you're hoping to build a cheaper deck,
you better get your copies of Karn Liberated now if you haven't already.
Ditto Wurmcoil Engine and Eldrazi.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I already have tron built, so that's not a problem
If you're running Monocolor the only dualland worth playing are the Scrylands or Manlands. Otherwise everything is inferior to basic lands, as you only need the one color.
And if the format was slow enough, yes, the Taplands are fine. Except that the Scrylands, Zendikar Lifelands, and the Manlands are all better by default than the Invasion Taplands. Technically even the Guildgates are better than the Invasion Taps, simply because Gate is sometimes relevant.
Modern will also never be that slow.
Maybe if they unban jace, misstep, vision, sword, blossom, and ban all the fast combo deck cards as well as dr s
Onslaught fetchlands coming to Modern is inevitable.