Look at the lists from states, and find me a UW control deck that plays it MD, and I will give you 5 dollars. It isnt that its not good, because I think it is, I just think that this is supposed to be a competetive deck, and no competetive control decks play it because it is only good in the first 4 turns, and good control decks would rather suspend a Visions or such.
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The Elesh Norn slot could have been a Baneslayer or Iona, so similar to how I chose which college to attend, I simply rolled a d6 and called it a day.
The first four turns are what Greater Gargadon needs to beat you. I think you restrict possibilities too much based on the netdecks you see. Just my oppinion, though.
The problem with prodigy is he isn't a turn 2 or a turn 4 drop, he's a '4 mana' drop which, in this deck, is turn 5 or 6, with unsurprising frequency. you only run 22 lands. 23 if you're a straight up gangsta. Heck, games are typically over before I have 4 blue mana sources in play. In mono-blue merfolk, he's good, but then you play him as your turn two threat (hopefully after a tideshaper), and keep 2 mana up for the rest of the game, if he sticks.
if you're on the play, riptide + 2 lands is an autokeep against control. after dropping turn 3 pendelhaven, I've been happy to do nothing but swing for 2 a turn with hippe-fish, all the while keeping mana open to counter draw spells or removal. if you can get a reej to stick, it's normally game over.
Just the decks from States that did play Tithe, and as you can see, all aggro decks. And again, im not saying that it isnt a bad card in control decks, as I personally play 4 MD in my UW Control deck. All im saying is that if you bring this to a competetive tournament, you will most likely never see it played in a control deck, except for those smart ones who realize it crushes aggro.
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Quote from The one and only JFord »
The Elesh Norn slot could have been a Baneslayer or Iona, so similar to how I chose which college to attend, I simply rolled a d6 and called it a day.
VISION? You know straight draw is bad in aggro, don't you? Also, 4 prodigy is way too much. I'd just play 2 of them, And I'd rather play Venser instead. Also, you should run Tithes, since they're the only hope you have at beating Gargadon aggro.
Lots of people use it almost solely based on the fact that there aren't many one drops for the deck to take advantage of. Personally, I don't like it either.
Gelid Shackles seems like a great SB card. I had forgotten it shut down activated abilities as well. I think I'll play it over condemn. The last thing agro decks like doing is giving an opp. life (unless you have kavu predator). Shackles takes away a blocker unlike condemn and can keep it from attacking. this also makes profane command not as scary.
as for the voidmage discussion, I think it comes down if you mana can support it. My deck plays way to much white to have enough blue for it.
Gelid Shackles seems like a great SB card. I had forgotten it shut down activated abilities as well. I think I'll play it over condemn. The last thing agro decks like doing is giving an opp. life (unless you have kavu predator). Shackles takes away a blocker unlike condemn and can keep it from attacking. this also makes profane command not as scary.
as for the voidmage discussion, I think it comes down if you mana can support it. My deck plays way to much white to have enough blue for it.
unfortunately, a 1cc arrest with a show mana upkeep is kinda awful compared to condemn or even just regular pacifism. this is especially relevant for, say, tarmogoyf. and neither are particularly relevant against pickles, since morph isn't an activated or triggered ability.
unfortunately, a 1cc arrest with a show mana upkeep is kinda awful compared to condemn or even just regular pacifism. this is especially relevant for, say, tarmogoyf. and neither are particularly relevant against pickles, since morph isn't an activated or triggered ability.
Condemn is kinda awful since you're aggro and you it gives your opponent life.
Ok well here's the list I have been running with quite a bit of success, i'll be bringing it to an FNM this friday and i'll get back to you with the results, but for the meantime this is my list.
I would really advise against not running Psionic Blast. Seriously, I'm not sure the deck would be viable without that card. The reach it provides is unparalleled by anything else in UW.
I would really advise against not running Psionic Blast. Seriously, I'm not sure the deck would be viable without that card. The reach it provides is unparalleled by anything else in UW.
Agreed. Considering it is the second best DD spell in standard...(Incinerate)...the card is a wonderful addition to most blue decks that can find the space to run it.
Its disturbing how many games can be won off the backs of a conclave and blasts.
To add on to this comment, cut the Nimbus Maze for Faerie Conclaves. You have enough white mana production there.
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I think I may add some conclaves, but I really like the dual lands that nimbus mazes almost always become, since not much in the deck is that color specific, i think they are a good addition.
anyone try spiketail drakeling or hatchling, because i know that the one thing that kills this deck is holding back because of the threat of a wrath of god, so dropping a 2/2 flier on turn 3 that says, "you cant wrath me for 2 more turns" seems pretty ideal.
I think you have a cool list, i'd just change Loxodon Warhammer for Unsummon. And another thing i'd do is reducing land to 20-21 since as you don't have a cool card draw machine up, it's likely to don't keep drawing lands (Almost all the times with 3 lands you can win the game).
Jiaozy,
It's a fair build, but i just don't like Cryptic Command on this deck, it's a 4cc card that will unlikely be cast on 4th turn, and another point against it is the UUU on it's cost. It's a cool card for a Faerie deck as long you keep your mana up to cast on foe's turn, but on Merfolks you'll be casting creatures on your turn, and keeping 4 mana up is not an easy thing for this.
Another card that is missing is Aquitect's Will, this card just let you go through (as he is using Riptide Pilferer, i presume he metagamed many blue decks on his way, but as long as not most decks run islands by itself, it's cool to use that card to finish things faster.). Not enough it cantrips you.
I don't like Ancestral Vision either. It seems a vs control card to later gas, but anyway you should do pressure early on, even countering his Vision / Thoughtseize / Rift Bolt with Mana Tithe (which is a great card to screw early drops of better aggros like elves either, or even countering tight casts like Damnation on 4th turn). Another bad point about Vision is that it's only a first turn card for this deck, casting it on 4-5 turn will be the end for it, since you'll only get card on 7-8 turn when control already stabilized.
Resuming: I guess his creatures + rune snag choice are ok, but about the support cards, i think their doesn't belong for this deck. (That's my personal view over the deck)
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
To add on to this comment, cut the Nimbus Maze for Faerie Conclaves. You have enough white mana production there.
My turn to agree. Conclave, like Blast, provides a good bit of post-Wrath reach, and they can fly over an aggro deck's blockers in a pinch. I've cut back to 3 from 4, since they get worse in muliples and you want as many Turn 1 Tideshapers as possible, but they're still quite good.
Besides, I'd feel a little uneasy running 4 Nimbus Maze in a deck with more nonbasics than basics (including the mazes themselves), especially with Cryptic Command in addition to LoA and Sygg. Seems like it would be easy to get awkward hands like Maze/Wastes/LoA or Maze/Plains/Tideshaper.
In all my playtesting I have never had a problem with the mazes, In most cases they help out with color fixing, or end up as a dual land.
About conclaves, I acually run some, i just forgot them in the list.
Maybe they do work out fine, then. The most Mazes I've run is one, and that was just a spare I'd raredrafted at some point. Obviously the addition of Conclaves would make the Mazes worse, though, and I think the Conclaves help the deck out more than the additional manafixing. Then again, I also don't run Commands.
Also, he's using Pilferer because there are no other decent 2 drop for the slot, they're obviously to SB out against aggro but even then, they're not that bad.Ancestral Vision is needed to keep the gas flowing, without it you're stuck with no cards in hand like any other aggro deck, but you don't have as many creatures nor as evasive.
Just on the bolded part: don't dismiss Judge of Currents[/card this fast, I thought it was good for nothing but gave it a shot anyway, against aggro decks without decent removal (UG, WW and the like) it's an instant win (provided that you are playing your threats as you should), this guy gave me life ranging between 10-15 every single game it hit play, and most aggros can kill you from 20 life, but not many can do it from 30-35 life. One last thing about the Judge: If you see it on the table, alongside LoA or Rejeerey, which one would you kill? for aggro decks it's not that easy to answer. Also, Coral Trickster while not very useful to play for two mana, is also a very decent 2-power 2-drop, so it's not like the world is divided between pilferer and the unplayble 2cc junk.
Mana Tithe is godawful against the majority of decks and you can't keep mana open in the first 2-3 turns because you must start applying pressure and can't waste 4 card slots for a card that does nothing past turn 4.
If Vision is somewhat slow after turn 4, Mana Tithe is totally useless but at least the Vision gets you some gas to recover from Wrath and Damnation or to keep the counters flowing to keep away mass removal.
I agree with your points on tithe, but I still don't know what to make of ancestral, because it either shows up on turns 1-2 or it'll be too late when the cards finally arrive, and I don't think that a card with a high probability of being useleess most of the time is worthy of a MD slot.
VISION? You know straight draw is bad in aggro, don't you? Also, 4 prodigy is way too much. I'd just play 2 of them, And I'd rather play Venser instead. Also, you should run Tithes, since they're the only hope you have at beating Gargadon aggro.
I hate it when people try to force their build on other people. How is straight draw bad in aggro? How is draw bad EVER? You see elf decks running Harmonize, is that terrible? 4 Voidmage Prodigy is not too much since they are usually targets. If you have another in your hand, you can always just use the one on the board to counter a spell. Venser is a personal preference. Tithes are a personal preference too, and personally I don't like the card. The argument FOR it is that you make them play around it. The problem is, you also end up having to leave a mana open for it thus making YOU have to play around it too. I have Ancestral Vision in there simple because merfolk decks have 4 cards that you can play turn 1 (6 if you count my Faerie Conclaves). There needs to be more in an aggro deck IMO.
I hate it when people try to force their build on other people. How is straight draw bad in aggro? How is draw bad EVER? You see elf decks running Harmonize, is that terrible? 4 Voidmage Prodigy is not too much since they are usually targets. If you have another in your hand, you can always just use the one on the board to counter a spell. Venser is a personal preference. Tithes are a personal preference too, and personally I don't like the card. The argument FOR it is that you make them play around it. The problem is, you also end up having to leave a mana open for it thus making YOU have to play around it too. I have Ancestral Vision in there simple because merfolk decks have 4 cards that you can play turn 1 (6 if you count my Faerie Conclaves). There needs to be more in an aggro deck IMO.
Elfs runs harmonize because it's a 4-drop. They don't want to waste their first turns drawing, since they still haven't lost their gas. Straight draw is bad in this deck because you need to keep the pressure on your opponent, adn you cantrip enough with aquitect, and silvergill to keep it some turns longer than most decks. Also, I'm not forcing my build on you, I like the facts that there are many different builds, I'm just telling you my oppinion and trying to help. That's why I said that it's a matter of preference. Also, Tithes don't make your opponent play around them, they wreck his first turns. By the way, how would a control card in an aggro deck help it? Aggro decks need Aggro 1-drops, not Control 1Ds.
UW Merfolk possible 1-drops:
Tideshaper Mystic
Aquitect's Will
Mana Tithe
I think that would make 12 1-drops, if you use 4 of each. That's a pretty respectable count IMO.
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if you're on the play, riptide + 2 lands is an autokeep against control. after dropping turn 3 pendelhaven, I've been happy to do nothing but swing for 2 a turn with hippe-fish, all the while keeping mana open to counter draw spells or removal. if you can get a reej to stick, it's normally game over.
Just the decks from States that did play Tithe, and as you can see, all aggro decks. And again, im not saying that it isnt a bad card in control decks, as I personally play 4 MD in my UW Control deck. All im saying is that if you bring this to a competetive tournament, you will most likely never see it played in a control deck, except for those smart ones who realize it crushes aggro.
Might as well post my deck
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Sygg, River Guide
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Rune Snag
2 Familiar's Ruse
4 Psionic Blast
4 Adarkar Wastes
2 Faerie Conclave
13 Island
If you have the last post in a thread and want to add to it, please use the Edit button instead of double posting.--Binary
as for the voidmage discussion, I think it comes down if you mana can support it. My deck plays way to much white to have enough blue for it.
unfortunately, a 1cc arrest with a show mana upkeep is kinda awful compared to condemn or even just regular pacifism. this is especially relevant for, say, tarmogoyf. and neither are particularly relevant against pickles, since morph isn't an activated or triggered ability.
Condemn is kinda awful since you're aggro and you it gives your opponent life.
Spam infraction.
-Lotus
4 Wanderwine Hub
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Nimbus Maze
7 Island
4 Plains
Creatures
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Sygg, River Guide
4 Tideshaper Mystic
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Mirror Entity
4 Aquitect's Will
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Rune Snag
4 Mana Tithe
3 Teferi's Moat
4 Riptide Pilferer
4 Condemn
4 Flashfreeze
Agreed. Considering it is the second best DD spell in standard...(Incinerate)...the card is a wonderful addition to most blue decks that can find the space to run it.
Its disturbing how many games can be won off the backs of a conclave and blasts.
To add on to this comment, cut the Nimbus Maze for Faerie Conclaves. You have enough white mana production there.
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I think you have a cool list, i'd just change Loxodon Warhammer for Unsummon. And another thing i'd do is reducing land to 20-21 since as you don't have a cool card draw machine up, it's likely to don't keep drawing lands (Almost all the times with 3 lands you can win the game).
Jiaozy,
It's a fair build, but i just don't like Cryptic Command on this deck, it's a 4cc card that will unlikely be cast on 4th turn, and another point against it is the UUU on it's cost. It's a cool card for a Faerie deck as long you keep your mana up to cast on foe's turn, but on Merfolks you'll be casting creatures on your turn, and keeping 4 mana up is not an easy thing for this.
Another card that is missing is Aquitect's Will, this card just let you go through (as he is using Riptide Pilferer, i presume he metagamed many blue decks on his way, but as long as not most decks run islands by itself, it's cool to use that card to finish things faster.). Not enough it cantrips you.
I don't like Ancestral Vision either. It seems a vs control card to later gas, but anyway you should do pressure early on, even countering his Vision / Thoughtseize / Rift Bolt with Mana Tithe (which is a great card to screw early drops of better aggros like elves either, or even countering tight casts like Damnation on 4th turn). Another bad point about Vision is that it's only a first turn card for this deck, casting it on 4-5 turn will be the end for it, since you'll only get card on 7-8 turn when control already stabilized.
Resuming: I guess his creatures + rune snag choice are ok, but about the support cards, i think their doesn't belong for this deck. (That's my personal view over the deck)
My turn to agree. Conclave, like Blast, provides a good bit of post-Wrath reach, and they can fly over an aggro deck's blockers in a pinch. I've cut back to 3 from 4, since they get worse in muliples and you want as many Turn 1 Tideshapers as possible, but they're still quite good.
Besides, I'd feel a little uneasy running 4 Nimbus Maze in a deck with more nonbasics than basics (including the mazes themselves), especially with Cryptic Command in addition to LoA and Sygg. Seems like it would be easy to get awkward hands like Maze/Wastes/LoA or Maze/Plains/Tideshaper.
About conclaves, I acually run some, i just forgot them in the list.
Just on the bolded part: don't dismiss Judge of Currents[/card this fast, I thought it was good for nothing but gave it a shot anyway, against aggro decks without decent removal (UG, WW and the like) it's an instant win (provided that you are playing your threats as you should), this guy gave me life ranging between 10-15 every single game it hit play, and most aggros can kill you from 20 life, but not many can do it from 30-35 life. One last thing about the Judge: If you see it on the table, alongside LoA or Rejeerey, which one would you kill? for aggro decks it's not that easy to answer. Also, Coral Trickster while not very useful to play for two mana, is also a very decent 2-power 2-drop, so it's not like the world is divided between pilferer and the unplayble 2cc junk.
I agree with your points on tithe, but I still don't know what to make of ancestral, because it either shows up on turns 1-2 or it'll be too late when the cards finally arrive, and I don't think that a card with a high probability of being useleess most of the time is worthy of a MD slot.
Don't you love when people make such claims and are wrong?
I hate it when people try to force their build on other people. How is straight draw bad in aggro? How is draw bad EVER? You see elf decks running Harmonize, is that terrible? 4 Voidmage Prodigy is not too much since they are usually targets. If you have another in your hand, you can always just use the one on the board to counter a spell. Venser is a personal preference. Tithes are a personal preference too, and personally I don't like the card. The argument FOR it is that you make them play around it. The problem is, you also end up having to leave a mana open for it thus making YOU have to play around it too. I have Ancestral Vision in there simple because merfolk decks have 4 cards that you can play turn 1 (6 if you count my Faerie Conclaves). There needs to be more in an aggro deck IMO.
Elfs runs harmonize because it's a 4-drop. They don't want to waste their first turns drawing, since they still haven't lost their gas. Straight draw is bad in this deck because you need to keep the pressure on your opponent, adn you cantrip enough with aquitect, and silvergill to keep it some turns longer than most decks. Also, I'm not forcing my build on you, I like the facts that there are many different builds, I'm just telling you my oppinion and trying to help. That's why I said that it's a matter of preference. Also, Tithes don't make your opponent play around them, they wreck his first turns. By the way, how would a control card in an aggro deck help it? Aggro decks need Aggro 1-drops, not Control 1Ds.
UW Merfolk possible 1-drops:
Tideshaper Mystic
Aquitect's Will
Mana Tithe
I think that would make 12 1-drops, if you use 4 of each. That's a pretty respectable count IMO.