I still think FInks is the better 3-drop against aggro strictly because of the life gain. I like being able to put myself to a safer distance against aggro decks which thrinax does not go he just stalls untill a sweeper comes along. Maybe it['s just my meta but I believe Finks to be the better man
Ok guys this my first post on mtgsalvation. So please dont yell at me if i mention something that has allready been talked about. I just dont have time to read all the posts. Here is my opinion on five color control.
I think that the Bant, Grixis, Naya, and Esper charms are something to look at for this type of control. You have the ability to build a mana base that can support them very easily, and they all provide great effects at instant speed.
Bant = No more demigod in grave or other creastures you dont life to see in the grave, and counters counterspells.
Grixis = Bounces a permanent, Is the new sudden death -4/-4, and can boost the Oona tokens if your running her.
Naya = Can act as creature kill if needed, returns your crap from the grave, and acts as another fog effect like cryptics ability.
Esper = Instant draw, instant discard, and oh ya KILLS BB
The war monk is great. Lots of people in my meta have been testing with the monk and its worked great early and late game. I think stoic also has great power. I just got mine today and cant wait to start testing with them. My idea for five color is an angel control (Stoic & Battlegrace) with charms as filler. You can also still run the other great staples like wrath, cryptic, firespout, ect. I havent made a set list yet, but i am working on one. Please any advice would be great.
I still think FInks is the better 3-drop against aggro strictly because of the life gain. I like being able to put myself to a safer distance against aggro decks which thrinax does not go he just stalls untill a sweeper comes along. Maybe it['s just my meta but I believe Finks to be the better man
no, im right there with you. the only way i would value Sprouting Thrinax over Kitchen Finks in this deck is if the tokens he created had flying. i say this because all throughout my testing the only things ive wanted to have more blockers for were Spectral Procession tokens, Bitterblossom tokens, and hasty flyers from rdw like Hell's Thunder and Demigod of Revenge. makes me value those Cloudthreshers even more just thinking about it; maybe thats just me though.
I'm sorry Shin but with TWELVE lands that come into play tapped I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe you can play a turn three spell followed by a turn four spell for the sole reason that one of your land drops is bound to show up tapped.
Moreover, is it really worth it to get to these extremes just for the sake of playing a creature that's probably only marginally better than finks? With multicolored enabling some really powerful aggro-control strategies right now, I find myself wanting to reduce the number of CIPT lands and lowering the average cost and difficulty of my early game answers.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
I'm sorry Shin but with TWELVE lands that come into play tapped I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe you can play a turn three spell followed by a turn four spell for the sole reason that one of your land drops is bound to show up tapped.
Uhm, that's why the third land I play is NOT a Vivid land...I never miss a three-drop, but thanks. (I mean, obviously it happens on occasion, but generally-speaking I consistently don't need to worry about that)
Moreover, is it really worth it to get to these extremes just for the sake of playing a creature that's probably only marginally better than finks? With multicolored enabling some really powerful aggro-control strategies right now, I find myself wanting to reduce the number of CIPT lands and lowering the average cost and difficulty of my early game answers.
This is questionable, obviously.
But see, I had the balls to try and make it work before just abandoning it because "its hard."
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Not to knock you Shin but I don't see how you survive against RDW without some sort of life gain effect MD. Sure you can cast Thranix to slow up some attackers but what do you do about their flyers and burn? I can only see you beating them if you open your hand with double condemn and hope they have a slow draw. Would you care to elaborate on your experiences against RDW without any life gain?
Not to knock you Shin but I don't see how you survive against RDW without some sort of life gain effect MD. Sure you can cast Thranix to slow up some attackers but what do you do about their flyers and burn? I can only see you beating them if you open your hand with double condemn and hope they have a slow draw. Would you care to elaborate on your experiences against RDW without any life gain?
RDW doesn't play any fliers other than Demigod of Revenge, so that isn't the issue. Obviously the lack of lifegain hurts, but the SB can accommodate. Like, it's the only MU where I miss Kitchen Finks.
But like I said, this is all testing and experimental.
I'm of course considering going back to Kitchen Finks. I just need more testing.
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RDW doesn't play any fliers other than Demigod of Revenge, so that isn't the issue. Obviously the lack of lifegain hurts, but the SB can accommodate. Like, it's the only MU where I miss Kitchen Finks.
But like I said, this is all testing and experimental.
I'm of course considering going back to Kitchen Finks. I just need more testing.
Hell's Thunder may not stay around very long, but he hits hard and most certainly has flying. i dont see why any rdw list would not run 4 of him; hes just plain good.
I'm just asking because, now this may just be me, because me meta is littered with RDW and they all play Hell's Thunder. Now I know he's not awesome but he does fly in before demigod and can come back and there are obviously many ways to kill him or deal with both but I just like the Finks to give a smidge of breathing room. I also love the finks against other aggro decks to effectively undo a single turn of damage and then block and gain again. And I find that he's just fine against Mirror. he still deals 3 on offense and then 2. While granted it's not 3 then 3 again I don't see that additional point to be so detrimental in such a long matchup. What are your thoughts?
Aight, after a week of testing and tweaking the deck/mana base, i am confident enough to share this list. Before i get into it, here are my notes on it:
-very tried and true t2 broken ambitions, t3 thrinax, t4 cryptic mana. Heres why: Only 2 lands do not tap for U, only 4 lands will not lead to a turn 3 Thrinax, and 10 vivids lead to very few to no opening hands with only Vivid, Vivid, Vivid.
-No pain or filter lands tap for Red, the removal of Firespout MD lead to this.
-4 ***s, no spouts. we have enough turn 1-3 drops/removal for anything spout could hit on t3 that was so vital. im not 100% confident in this decision, but in testing i never found myself wishing it was a spout.
-very confident in the creature suite, i see others run similar/same lists.
-i run 7 pain lands, that coupled with no MD lifegain could cause some worries. i am aware of this, i hope that the smoothness of the build outways the drawback.
Hell's Thunder may not stay around very long, but he hits hard and most certainly has flying. i dont see why any rdw list would not run 4 of him; hes just plain good.
Bitterblossom is in two of the Top Decks in this format.
i love how the members of team revolution are allowed to flame without getting warned.
the points that jiaozy made are vaild.
-cruel ultimatum does little to the board, and doesnt at all spell 'auto-win'. even if you feel you 'must have it' why would you ever want more than 1? oona was widely considered the best win-con in pre-rotation t2 and even that wasnt usually at more than 1; think about that.
-shriekmaw, while okay in certain matchups, shouldnt necessarily be main-decked. i can understand the logic, though, so im no too far against it. but, to say that gp denver and birmingham = post rotation t2 is incorrect.
wait, so if im ever arguing a card choice with you, youll respond better if im an ass towards you? good to know.
edit: i guess this means ill have to carefully choose which members of team revolution mtgs i forcfully debate, then? if im understanding this correctly, cause i sure dont wanna get unfairly warned.
Please... I didn't flame him, I genuinely think his arguments and positions fall under 'idiotic'. If you have 3hrs, read the last 70pages. I'm not flaming from the blocks, just tired of unsupported statements.
My referencing of the block GPs (add in Rimini; Chapin & Cheon) is to provide evidence of Shriekmaw's worth. Jiaozy mentions Kithkin every 3 seconds of his life, but then thinks Shriekmaw isn't worth it.
That's why I love the net so much, people thinking they're god and they're the ONLY ONE that test Please continue posting because your posts are always the funniest.
Woah, 1 randomic MD Shriekmaw in a different format is DEFINITELY a proof that it MUST be played
UB Kelpie Crime?
Yeah a defining deck of the format, for sure, not Faeries, WW or Q'nT
Main reason why I stopped looking at that board, the only one with some knowledge of the game at the time I stopped looking were Lesurgo and PolarBearGod, everyone else just kept on spamming their useless and barely FNM-worthy lists.
I don't know how much work it's been done by the team to improve in the meantime, tho...
But from the look of it, not much
You do realise you're the poster child for this right... ? Like when you said Quicken belonged in Rav-Tsp-9th Solar Flare...and the ego quotes are a little bit of a running discussion joke.
Maybe mathematics has changed... but 1 Shriekmaw... ? You can't count now ? Persuasive arguments still need facts kiddo... it's not about being able to c&p selectively&editorially (though kudos for your dedication in this area).
Kelpie was a deck in the meta, that DID put up finishes in the higher level events and PTQs. Shriekmaw is a factor in this... smiley faces are cute for 3yr olds, but kind of irrelevant as far as constructive discussion goes.
You keep talking about Kithkin and aggro decks, and how they make Cruel Ultimatum a bad choice... but then Shriekmaw is bad.. ? This doesn't make sense. He handles Kithkin, 80% of Merfolk, all of Bant aggro-control, more than half of RDW and is Mannequin-able as well.
Yes, there exist creatures he can't kill with his triggered ability... so ? Bant Charm is 3 mana in a deck already wishing it could trade 10 life to start the game with a land in play.
It's very interesting that you consider yourself in a position high enough to dictate who has and does not have "some knowledge of the game".
has anyone tried playing the rgw charm? seems on paper to be good
Fog/Nameless inversion seems interesting. As far as flat out removal goes, Bant Charm is better. As far as fog goes, Cryptic is better. There's really not much room for it. There's so many cards that almost make this deck, but considering we can cast basically any combination of cards, a card has to be pretty darn good to make the cut.
has anyone tried playing the rgw charm? seems on paper to be good
It does seem decent, I just don't think there's enough room for it in most list. I would like it for the random spot removal and the get back a card. Like it can act as a Cryptic Command or Condemn if those cards are in your yard.
The problem is that when do you ever want RGW for fog; RGW for Recollect; RGW for 3 dmg. The answer to most of those is "almost never". The only I could honestly answer "yes" to for a majority of the time is 3 dmg, and we have so many better removal spells than this.
Looks like every is going to start playing finks over Thrinax now that Shin has posted a list with them in hehe.
Im still playing Thrinax with essentially this list (- Finks +Thrinax, -1 Bant, +1 BA, Cruel over Violent) and have been finding the casting of Thrinax into CC not too bad (probably hitting it 70% of the time when I have both in hand).
I do however have trouble from playing t2 BA, into t3 Thrinax as to play the t3 Thrinax I need to usually play 2 vivids in a row (which means only 1 mana up on t2).
Since you are playing 12 vivids you been finding that too (t2 BA)? Or since you are playing only the 2 BA, they there for midgame?
I think that the Bant, Grixis, Naya, and Esper charms are something to look at for this type of control. You have the ability to build a mana base that can support them very easily, and they all provide great effects at instant speed.
Bant = No more demigod in grave or other creastures you dont life to see in the grave, and counters counterspells.
Grixis = Bounces a permanent, Is the new sudden death -4/-4, and can boost the Oona tokens if your running her.
Naya = Can act as creature kill if needed, returns your crap from the grave, and acts as another fog effect like cryptics ability.
Esper = Instant draw, instant discard, and oh ya KILLS BB
The war monk is great. Lots of people in my meta have been testing with the monk and its worked great early and late game. I think stoic also has great power. I just got mine today and cant wait to start testing with them. My idea for five color is an angel control (Stoic & Battlegrace) with charms as filler. You can also still run the other great staples like wrath, cryptic, firespout, ect.
I havent made a set list yet, but i am working on one. Please any advice would be great.
no, im right there with you. the only way i would value Sprouting Thrinax over Kitchen Finks in this deck is if the tokens he created had flying. i say this because all throughout my testing the only things ive wanted to have more blockers for were Spectral Procession tokens, Bitterblossom tokens, and hasty flyers from rdw like Hell's Thunder and Demigod of Revenge. makes me value those Cloudthreshers even more just thinking about it; maybe thats just me though.
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Grove
3 Vivid Meadow
2 Vivid Marsh
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Mystic Gate
1 Graven Cairns
2 Sulfurous Springs
2 Twilight Mire
I do it all the time.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
I don't play Broken Ambitions for that very reason.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
Which is probably the only low point in the mana base, since I think BA is actually really good.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
I'm sorry Shin but with TWELVE lands that come into play tapped I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe you can play a turn three spell followed by a turn four spell for the sole reason that one of your land drops is bound to show up tapped.
Moreover, is it really worth it to get to these extremes just for the sake of playing a creature that's probably only marginally better than finks? With multicolored enabling some really powerful aggro-control strategies right now, I find myself wanting to reduce the number of CIPT lands and lowering the average cost and difficulty of my early game answers.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Uhm, that's why the third land I play is NOT a Vivid land...I never miss a three-drop, but thanks. (I mean, obviously it happens on occasion, but generally-speaking I consistently don't need to worry about that)
This is questionable, obviously.
But see, I had the balls to try and make it work before just abandoning it because "its hard."
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
yes you did shin, yes you did.
which is why im going to adapt my mana base to youre advice..because youre F-ing AWESOME.
hows that for an ego quote,
RDW doesn't play any fliers other than Demigod of Revenge, so that isn't the issue. Obviously the lack of lifegain hurts, but the SB can accommodate. Like, it's the only MU where I miss Kitchen Finks.
But like I said, this is all testing and experimental.
I'm of course considering going back to Kitchen Finks. I just need more testing.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
Hell's Thunder may not stay around very long, but he hits hard and most certainly has flying. i dont see why any rdw list would not run 4 of him; hes just plain good.
-very tried and true t2 broken ambitions, t3 thrinax, t4 cryptic mana. Heres why: Only 2 lands do not tap for U, only 4 lands will not lead to a turn 3 Thrinax, and 10 vivids lead to very few to no opening hands with only Vivid, Vivid, Vivid.
-No pain or filter lands tap for Red, the removal of Firespout MD lead to this.
-4 ***s, no spouts. we have enough turn 1-3 drops/removal for anything spout could hit on t3 that was so vital. im not 100% confident in this decision, but in testing i never found myself wishing it was a spout.
-very confident in the creature suite, i see others run similar/same lists.
-i run 7 pain lands, that coupled with no MD lifegain could cause some worries. i am aware of this, i hope that the smoothness of the build outways the drawback.
4x Mulldrifter
2x Cloudthresher
2x Broodmate Dragon
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae
4x Cryptic Command
4x Wrath of God
3x Condemn
2x Bant Charm
3x Esper Charm
2x Makeshift Mannequin
3x Broken Ambitions
1x Cruel Ultimatum
4x Vivid Creek
2x Vivid Marsh
2x Vivid Grove
2x Vivid Meadow
3x Yavimaya Coast
2x Underground River
2x Cave of Koilos
2x Mystic Gate
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Flooded Grove
No sideboard included, been spending the time testing the mana base and other cards in the deck, so that has been put in the back burner.
Bitterblossom is in two of the Top Decks in this format.
Exactly.
Hell's Thunder isn't in the good RDW lists.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
I'll just answer in the form of a quote.
*emphasized for effect.
Please... I didn't flame him, I genuinely think his arguments and positions fall under 'idiotic'. If you have 3hrs, read the last 70pages. I'm not flaming from the blocks, just tired of unsupported statements.
My referencing of the block GPs (add in Rimini; Chapin & Cheon) is to provide evidence of Shriekmaw's worth. Jiaozy mentions Kithkin every 3 seconds of his life, but then thinks Shriekmaw isn't worth it.
You do realise you're the poster child for this right... ? Like when you said Quicken belonged in Rav-Tsp-9th Solar Flare...and the ego quotes are a little bit of a running discussion joke.
Maybe mathematics has changed... but 1 Shriekmaw... ? You can't count now ? Persuasive arguments still need facts kiddo... it's not about being able to c&p selectively&editorially (though kudos for your dedication in this area).
Kelpie was a deck in the meta, that DID put up finishes in the higher level events and PTQs. Shriekmaw is a factor in this... smiley faces are cute for 3yr olds, but kind of irrelevant as far as constructive discussion goes.
You keep talking about Kithkin and aggro decks, and how they make Cruel Ultimatum a bad choice... but then Shriekmaw is bad.. ? This doesn't make sense. He handles Kithkin, 80% of Merfolk, all of Bant aggro-control, more than half of RDW and is Mannequin-able as well.
Yes, there exist creatures he can't kill with his triggered ability... so ? Bant Charm is 3 mana in a deck already wishing it could trade 10 life to start the game with a land in play.
It's very interesting that you consider yourself in a position high enough to dictate who has and does not have "some knowledge of the game".
-TEAM REVOLUTION
touché. silly me forgetting the best card in the format.
Fog/Nameless inversion seems interesting. As far as flat out removal goes, Bant Charm is better. As far as fog goes, Cryptic is better. There's really not much room for it. There's so many cards that almost make this deck, but considering we can cast basically any combination of cards, a card has to be pretty darn good to make the cut.
It does seem decent, I just don't think there's enough room for it in most list. I would like it for the random spot removal and the get back a card. Like it can act as a Cryptic Command or Condemn if those cards are in your yard.
EDH:
Teysa Combo
No.
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Meadow
1 Vivid Grove
4 Mystic Gate
3 Flooded Grove
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Shivan Reef
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Adarkar Wastes
Creatures
4 Mulldrifter
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Cloudthresher
2 Broodmate Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 Cryptic Command
3 Condemn
1 Violent Ultimatum
2 Makeshift Mannequin
3 Bant Charm
3 Esper Charm
4 Wrath of God
2 Broken Ambitions
1 Cloudthresher
1 Jund Charm
3 Runed Halo
2 Shriekmaw
3 Mind Shatter
3 Negate
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Condemn
...
*flees*
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
Looks like every is going to start playing finks over Thrinax now that Shin has posted a list with them in hehe.
Im still playing Thrinax with essentially this list (- Finks +Thrinax, -1 Bant, +1 BA, Cruel over Violent) and have been finding the casting of Thrinax into CC not too bad (probably hitting it 70% of the time when I have both in hand).
3 Vivid Grove
3 Vivid Meadow
1 Vivid Marsh
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Underground River
3 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Fire-lit thicket
4 Reflecting Pools
Since you are playing 12 vivids you been finding that too (t2 BA)? Or since you are playing only the 2 BA, they there for midgame?
EDIT:
Can't count vivids.