i understand that, but isn't that what bant charm is for? And that doesn't really explain why NOT to play spout
bant charm can't be casted til turn 3. sometimes you need to stop early game threats. (wizen cenn, knight of meadowgrain, stigma laser, fod, doran, etc) and man lands. plus bant in late game can double as negates so sometimes you don't want to use them for their creature removal.
you can play spouts personally i like wrath more and i don't think your gonna need 7-8 wrath effects imo. especially since they are dead cards vs control half the time.
Well i have been testing alot (the finks list...) and i have been having problems with dam Torrent. Im jumping on the Oring in sb Bandwaggon - seems like i lose to Bblossom or Vol.
So O rings are great vs that deck i think, getting rid of threats that Firesprout/*** cant take out. Obvoiusly Oring is good vs Evles RDW and Doran. Sb it is... atleast 2 slots?
Well i have been testing alot (the finks list...) and i have been having problems with dam Torrent. Im jumping on the Oring in sb Bandwaggon - seems like i lose to Bblossom or Vol.
So O rings are great vs that deck i think, getting rid of threats that Firesprout/*** cant take out. Obvoiusly Oring is good vs Evles RDW and Doran. Sb it is... atleast 2 slots?
what is torrent running that are the main threats?
also what else do you have in your sideboard? i don't have room for o-rings
what is torrent running that are the main threats?
I got problems with 2t BB, 3t thrinax, 4th turn Vol... or marsh... then Giant/husk/seige gang.... + direct dmg/thoughtseize. I consider it a 50/50 match up preboard... If i can get rid of BB then its alot easier.
Shin, would you mind please explaining why you MD condemn over firespout? It seems like in most matches, we are so far behind creature-wise, that a "board sweeper" would be much more efficient, especially if bant charm is MD'ed...and i apologize in advance if you have already addressed this issue, just something that hit me odd about your deck list...thanks
Condemn is a 1-mana answer to just about anything in the format, and it can be played at any point in the game. Bant Charm is very similar, and is needed later in the game as spot removal with no strings attached.
:symb::symw::symr: Demon control :symr::symw::symb:
:symu::symw::symg: Pod :symg::symw::symu:
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
There was never any doubt that Tharinx was a better choice than Kitchen Finks, however the mana base needs work as you said... if i can get a stable mana base that goes from U1 toBRG to UUU1 then i'll play tharinx, until then i'm sticking to Kitchen Finks and a more stable manabase in tournaments (even the short ones), however in testing i'll see what the Tharinx can do!
What costs 1U? BA on turn 2? There is no guarentee that you will need to BA turn 2. let alone thoughtseize achieves the same exact thing, negates 1 spell for cheap in the early game. Except the fact that late game thougthseize is actually still usable. Plus then there is the fact that thought seize falls in the early colors of thranix and violent ult so the mana basis can start going that direction and you can just vivid/pool/filter your UUU for cryptic.
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
:symb::symw::symr: Demon control :symr::symw::symb:
:symu::symw::symg: Pod :symg::symw::symu:
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
T2 Stigma Lasher, T2 Bitterblossom, T2 Wren's Run Vanquisher, T2 Doran.... there are a lot of reasons for T2 Broken Ambitions......
ok so if i'm on one mana (because they went 1st) i'm going to be wanting Condemn T2, which isn't quite as challenging.... however as the preferance is to play, i want to have counter magic up turn 2....
I wouldn't be playing the spell if i didn't want to cast it!
Kimono i really don't think that you need 6 board sweepers, 3 with maybe 1 or 2 coming in from the board should be plenty!
you 've touched a sensitive point: it's KEmono not KImono (kemono=wild animal in japanese)! WTF!
i grandly hesitates, i'm more for a kind of jund toast, but what play instead of wrath?
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:symw::symu::symb: Sorin, Lord of Innistrad Flare :symb::symu::symw:
:symb::symw::symr: Demon control :symr::symw::symb:
:symu::symw::symg: Pod :symg::symw::symu:
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
:symb::symw::symr: Demon control :symr::symw::symb:
:symu::symw::symg: Pod :symg::symw::symu:
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
Is there a good maindeckable answer to RDW that isn't dead vs other decks? Without counting finks and primal command, of course!
And what cards instead are good in the SB? Thanks
violent ultimatum, thrinax, broodmate
the fallen->in SB
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"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
T2 Stigma Lasher, T2 Bitterblossom, T2 Wren's Run Vanquisher, T2 Doran.... there are a lot of reasons for T2 Broken Ambitions......
ok so if i'm on one mana (because they went 1st) i'm going to be wanting Condemn T2, which isn't quite as challenging.... however as the preferance is to play, i want to have counter magic up turn 2....
I wouldn't be playing the spell if i didn't want to cast it!
Kemono i really don't think that you need 6 board sweepers, 3 with maybe 1 or 2 coming in from the board should be plenty!
I said nothing about wanting to turn 2 BA. I asked the infinitely more relevent question of when will you NEED to turn 2 BA. And you asnwered with the 1 thing you need turn 2 BA for which is BB but its not like you dont main board esper charm which in the same situation that you can BA on you could untap and just esper charm it. Let alone I can't think of anything you need to condemn turn 2 well besides you on the draw and they turn 2 doran. But then again whos runing doran that can turn 2 it? Then again its not like it can't be, thoughtseized/bant/condemn/wrath of god'd.
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
He meant those were for for RDW maindeck and that the only thing in his post being sideboarded is Cruel Ultimatum, because Violent is just better against aggressive strategies.
Quiet a few people have said that testing with Violent ultimatum has produced much powerful plays. Which seems logical as it can handle planeswalkers/enchants/artifacts/lands and its guaranteed 3 for 1. Its not 8 for 1 like cruel can be but there is not always a dude on board nor is there always 3 cards in their hands.
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
On the other hand i'd rather not tap out in my own turn against Fae giving them free reign on the board....
They play Bitterblossom, T3 i play esper charm, now i'm locked into a reactive game which i'm inevitably going to lose.... i might a well just scoop now and be done with it!
It's quite the opposite actually.
Bitterblossom is faeries best card. If you remove that you are well on your way to winning. It's when that blossom stays that you may as well pick up your cards. 'Cause then, everything in the faerie deck is better.
No blossom means worse Scion, worse Mistbind, and much worse Spellstutter Sprite.
If you have to tap out to remove blossom, then do so. Be happy you have the chance to.
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On the other hand i'd rather not tap out in my own turn against Fae giving them free reign on the board....
They play Bitterblossom, T3 i play esper charm, now i'm locked into a reactive game which i'm inevitably going to lose.... i might a well just scoop now and be done with it!
There is almost no way to thoughtseize T1 in this deck (and i take 3 pain for the priviledge, and that's if i PLAYED thoughtseize, it's not Faeries you know?)!
I agree i can be Bant Charmed but i'd rather not see this situation too often:
them T1: Forest, BoP
Me: Vivid Land
Them T2 Bosk - Doran
Me Land
Them Swing for 5..... ok that's not good!!
Play Colossus
I've been on the recieving end of this quite a few times and it's not remotely funny....you untap T4 with 10 life facing down Doran or Colossus..... good times! No not really....
Or T2 stigma lasher = rubbish Kitchen Finks....:( not cool! Turn 2 Broken Ambitions or T2 Condemn can quite frequently be key deciding factors in this deck.
I've never won a game where i've been hit by a stigma lasher T3
Im not saying dont condemn and Im not saying you turn 1 thoughtseize. Plus the ideal turn to thoughtseize is turn 3 cause a lot of problem spells happend on 4 mana.
And untaping on turn 4 with a birds, doran and collosus out seems fine to me you just *** and crush everything else that hits the board because you just 3 for 1'd their best creatures in the deck.
You are playing control you can aford to take 19 points plus per game and win still. Its control it doesn't matter if you were at 1 or 100 when the game ended, its about wining.
I saw some one say one of the greatest control coments ever on these forums recently "patience its not just a virtue its a wincondition"
And if you wern't runing finks lasher wouldnt more than a 2cc 2/2 with wither.
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Lasher is main board in mono red, if not they play the 3/1 for BR, Goblin Deathraiders or something. If your playing against Mono red, lasher is in, if not, deathraiders is in.
Lasher is main board in mono red, if not they play the 3/1 for BR, Goblin Deathraiders or something. If your playing against Mono red, lasher is in, if not, deathraiders is in.
Actually some lists opt to skip the two drop slot completely and just allocate that turn to Figure of Destiny or for burning something out.
given this list could you guys help me out with sideboarding choices? i'm expecting to see fae, mirrors, rdw, and probably rb/rbg torrent.
if youre expecting those matchups, i would change the thirnax to finks. it would ease the strain on the manabase, and finks is actually a better choice in the fae and rdw matchup, possibly the mirror, but prolly not the tokens, i havent tested that matchup as much. anyway, yeah, just run finks. the more stable your deck is, the more you will only have to deal with the skill with which you can pilot it, not if the deck will spit out lands that dont help until turn 5 when youre already way behind. thats my thoughts anyway.
im thinking something along the lines of:
fae: side in 3x mindshatter, 1x thresher, 1x jund charm, 2x negate
the fae match hinges so, so much on bitterblossom, you really need to bring in more answers to it, in such forms as addition broken ambitions, esper charms, or even wispmare. srsly, once you get rid of the blossom, the match because much easier, so that should be your primary concern.
what i suggest taking out: 4 wrath of god, 3 condemn, and maybe one of your 6 mana guys that dont have flash.
rdw: side in 2x primal command, 2x rune halo, 2x negate
primal command: check. runed halo: check. negate: wtf? negate is prolly a bad sideboard choice, as most (all?) the threats you should be worried about in that deck are creatures. id bring in your other cloudthresher; it stops any of their d00ds and has to have at least 2 burn spells sent its way to die.
what i suggest taking out: a couple ***s maybe, and an esper charm perhaps. i always have to think a while when siding stuff out for this match because most things we run are potentially used here.
mirror: side in 2x glen, 2x negate, 1x jund charm, 3x mindshatter
i think this one is good, but you should also bring in the other couldthresher.
what i suggest taking out: similar to the fae match; various amounts of ***s, condemns, etc.
also idk if i need 3x mindshatters, maybe take one out for a cruel ultimatum or another rune halo?
yeah, i was gunna say 3 mind shatter is a little much, but please PLEASE dont put cruel ultimatum in its place. id suggest another esper charm or broken ambitions, either of which should be brought in for the fae to kill the blossom.
Jund <-> Oona's Grace might be incorrect, but I rarely want to pitch lands in a control mirror.
Mind Shatter is to slow, especially against Jace Beleran. It's a 4-6mana spell, at sorcery speed... against their 3 cost card drawing engine.
Firespout is selective removal, leaving Thrinax and Cloudthresher untouched.
RDW:
-1 Oona's Grace
-1 Broken Ambitions (build dependent)
-1 Wrath of God
-1 Esper Charm
+2 Runed Halo
+2 Primal Command
Maybe take out a 2nd *** and bring in that Cloudthresher.
I don't like Broken Ambitions in this match up at all... potentially leave it in and take out the 2nd Wrath and 2nd Esper Charm on the play... but it's too much of a mise, and Vexing Shusher is generally brought in.
Mirror:
-4 Wrath of God
-3 Condemn
-1 Bant Charm
-1 Broodmate Dragon
Excess removal for control cards. If they bring in Vexing Shusher (as some 5c builds too, for an advantage in the mirror) then put the BA's out, possibly the archmage's and bring Wrath's and the Bant Charm back in.
bant charm can't be casted til turn 3. sometimes you need to stop early game threats. (wizen cenn, knight of meadowgrain, stigma laser, fod, doran, etc) and man lands. plus bant in late game can double as negates so sometimes you don't want to use them for their creature removal.
you can play spouts personally i like wrath more and i don't think your gonna need 7-8 wrath effects imo. especially since they are dead cards vs control half the time.
So O rings are great vs that deck i think, getting rid of threats that Firesprout/*** cant take out. Obvoiusly Oring is good vs Evles RDW and Doran. Sb it is... atleast 2 slots?
what is torrent running that are the main threats?
also what else do you have in your sideboard? i don't have room for o-rings
I got problems with 2t BB, 3t thrinax, 4th turn Vol... or marsh... then Giant/husk/seige gang.... + direct dmg/thoughtseize. I consider it a 50/50 match up preboard... If i can get rid of BB then its alot easier.
Condemn is a 1-mana answer to just about anything in the format, and it can be played at any point in the game. Bant Charm is very similar, and is needed later in the game as spot removal with no strings attached.
As far as why I'm not playing Firespout...I'm playing Wrath of God.
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after a few test, i go with shin: 25 lands is enough, if you play the right lands
then, i still play thrinax and finks, i need both
3 esper and bant charms, 4 firespout
as kills: 2 cloudthresher, 1 oona and 1 dragon
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
What costs 1U? BA on turn 2? There is no guarentee that you will need to BA turn 2. let alone thoughtseize achieves the same exact thing, negates 1 spell for cheap in the early game. Except the fact that late game thougthseize is actually still usable. Plus then there is the fact that thought seize falls in the early colors of thranix and violent ult so the mana basis can start going that direction and you can just vivid/pool/filter your UUU for cryptic.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
3 vivid creek
3 vivid grove
2 vivid marsh
2 vivid crag
2 flooded grove
2 cascade bluffs
2 wooded bastion
2 mystic gate
2 sulfurous spring
1 adarkar wastes
4 kitchen finks
4 sprouting thrinax
4 mulldrifter
2 cloudthresher
1 broodmate dragon
1 OOna, queen of the fae
3 firespout
3 esper charm
3 bant charm
3 wrath of god
2 makeshift mannequin
1 violent ultimatum
4 cancel
2 runed halo
2 mindshatter
2 jund charm
1 oblivion ring
1 cloudthresher
1 nuckleavee
1 broodmate dragon
1 cruel ultimatum
cross-over between my list and shin's list
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
you 've touched a sensitive point: it's KEmono not KImono (kemono=wild animal in japanese)! WTF!
i grandly hesitates, i'm more for a kind of jund toast, but what play instead of wrath?
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
against faeries, there are never enough board sweepers i joke, i'll direct my deck in kind of jund toast
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
Where are your cruel ultimatums?
violent ultimatum, thrinax, broodmate
the fallen->in SB
"If you were to turn into a snake tomorrow and begin devouring humans, and from the same mouth you started devouring humans, you cried out to me 'I love you,' would I still be able to say 'I love you' the same way I do today?" Ichimaru Gin
In my Sideboard.
Condemn, Bant Charm; Broodmate Dragon and Cloudthresher will always two-for-one, at least.
For sideboard: Runed Halo, more specific counters, Mind Shatter. So many more. Depends on your metagame.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
and they're not in the MD...why?
He meant those were for for RDW maindeck and that the only thing in his post being sideboarded is Cruel Ultimatum, because Violent is just better against aggressive strategies.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
It's quite the opposite actually.
Bitterblossom is faeries best card. If you remove that you are well on your way to winning. It's when that blossom stays that you may as well pick up your cards. 'Cause then, everything in the faerie deck is better.
No blossom means worse Scion, worse Mistbind, and much worse Spellstutter Sprite.
If you have to tap out to remove blossom, then do so. Be happy you have the chance to.
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And untaping on turn 4 with a birds, doran and collosus out seems fine to me you just *** and crush everything else that hits the board because you just 3 for 1'd their best creatures in the deck.
You are playing control you can aford to take 19 points plus per game and win still. Its control it doesn't matter if you were at 1 or 100 when the game ended, its about wining.
I saw some one say one of the greatest control coments ever on these forums recently "patience its not just a virtue its a wincondition"
And if you wern't runing finks lasher wouldnt more than a 2cc 2/2 with wither.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Actually some lists opt to skip the two drop slot completely and just allocate that turn to Figure of Destiny or for burning something out.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
Is Pyroclasm worth it in the current format? Or is that a metagame call vs. x/1 creatures?
4x Vivid Creek
3x Vivid Meadow
3x Vivid Grove
2x Vivid Marsh
2x Mystic Gate
2x Twilight Mire
1x Graven Cairns
1x Sulfuric Springs
1x Karpulsan Forest
1x Shivan Reef
1x Yavimaya Coast
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Spouting Thrinax
4x Mulldrifter
2x Cloudthresher
2x Broodmate Dragon
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae
Spells
4x Cryptic Command
2x Broken Ambitions
3x Condemn
3x Bant Charm
3x Esper Charm
4x Wrath of God
2x Makeshift Manniquin
1x Oona's Grace
3x Mindshatter
1x Cloudthresher
2x Firespout
1x Jund Charm
2x Primal Command
2x Rune Halo
2x Negate
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
given this list could you guys help me out with sideboarding choices? i'm expecting to see fae, mirrors, rdw, and probably rb/rbg torrent.
im thinking something along the lines of:
fae: side in 3x mindshatter, 1x thresher, 1x jund charm, 2x negate
rdw: side in 2x primal command, 2x rune halo, 2x negate
mirror: side in 2x glen, 2x negate, 1x jund charm, 3x mindshatter
but i am really bad on choosing what to take out. i kind of want to have a fairly set strategy for my upcoming tourney. thanks.
also idk if i need 3x mindshatters, maybe take one out for a cruel ultimatum or another rune halo?
EDIT: oh i was wondering why nobody was posting. i'm assuming everyone is at FNM. let me know results and help me out when you get back ^^^^
if youre expecting those matchups, i would change the thirnax to finks. it would ease the strain on the manabase, and finks is actually a better choice in the fae and rdw matchup, possibly the mirror, but prolly not the tokens, i havent tested that matchup as much. anyway, yeah, just run finks. the more stable your deck is, the more you will only have to deal with the skill with which you can pilot it, not if the deck will spit out lands that dont help until turn 5 when youre already way behind. thats my thoughts anyway.
the fae match hinges so, so much on bitterblossom, you really need to bring in more answers to it, in such forms as addition broken ambitions, esper charms, or even wispmare. srsly, once you get rid of the blossom, the match because much easier, so that should be your primary concern.
what i suggest taking out: 4 wrath of god, 3 condemn, and maybe one of your 6 mana guys that dont have flash.
primal command: check. runed halo: check. negate: wtf? negate is prolly a bad sideboard choice, as most (all?) the threats you should be worried about in that deck are creatures. id bring in your other cloudthresher; it stops any of their d00ds and has to have at least 2 burn spells sent its way to die.
what i suggest taking out: a couple ***s maybe, and an esper charm perhaps. i always have to think a while when siding stuff out for this match because most things we run are potentially used here.
i think this one is good, but you should also bring in the other couldthresher.
what i suggest taking out: similar to the fae match; various amounts of ***s, condemns, etc.
yeah, i was gunna say 3 mind shatter is a little much, but please PLEASE dont put cruel ultimatum in its place. id suggest another esper charm or broken ambitions, either of which should be brought in for the fae to kill the blossom.
hope that helped!
-4 Wrath of God
-3 Condemn
-1 Oona's Grace
+1 Cloudthresher
+2 Negate
+2 Glen Elendra Archmage
+2 Firespout
+1 Jund Charm
Jund <-> Oona's Grace might be incorrect, but I rarely want to pitch lands in a control mirror.
Mind Shatter is to slow, especially against Jace Beleran. It's a 4-6mana spell, at sorcery speed... against their 3 cost card drawing engine.
Firespout is selective removal, leaving Thrinax and Cloudthresher untouched.
RDW:
-1 Oona's Grace
-1 Broken Ambitions (build dependent)
-1 Wrath of God
-1 Esper Charm
+2 Runed Halo
+2 Primal Command
Maybe take out a 2nd *** and bring in that Cloudthresher.
I don't like Broken Ambitions in this match up at all... potentially leave it in and take out the 2nd Wrath and 2nd Esper Charm on the play... but it's too much of a mise, and Vexing Shusher is generally brought in.
Mirror:
-4 Wrath of God
-3 Condemn
-1 Bant Charm
-1 Broodmate Dragon
+2 Negate
+2 Glen Elendra Archmage
+3 Mind Shatter
+1 Primal Command
+1 Cloudthresher
Excess removal for control cards. If they bring in Vexing Shusher (as some 5c builds too, for an advantage in the mirror) then put the BA's out, possibly the archmage's and bring Wrath's and the Bant Charm back in.
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