Well lets look at statistics real quick. Based on the average build with no factors on tribal spells. Paragon roughly hits 20% , Shaman hits 35% of the time. Statistically Shaman is better to play. Though if you build with Paragon in the deck it would be better to raise that number but is it worth it?
I'm trying to build a gauntlet for our testing group, and I was wondering if there is a standard elves (G/B) build out there? Also, is there a good sideboard we can use to test with?
I'll be happy to test and report my results....etc. Our playtesting group is good (once, all six of us made a top 8 in a PTQ, and we've had more than 50% of us make day 2 at Grand Prixes...etc).
Lastly, is R/G elves a good archetype to test against?
In your build, sure, those are the stats. Though the original hit is not the only time that Paragon is useful. Nor does it produce the same thing that Wolf-Skull does. They take your deck in different directions (and no, it doesn't have to be warrior elves), and change what plays you make, as well as the way your deck plays should you draw either card. Trample is very relevant in today's format, and I just think people are seriously devaluing its strength
I haven't seen cases where a lucky topdecked Shaman won someone the game immediately, without giving the opponent time to interact. I have seen cases where a lucky topdecked Paragon did.
Yeah the side board was really the most important part to win the final. My match ups weren't that easy boat brew, some blightning deck updated, and a G/B aggro deck with the lord of extinction. I should've lost to the brew, but he didn't draw his fallouts or ***'s game 3...should've lost to blightning but blew up both games and won t4 both games. There are changes that should've been made to the deck though, ie. md colosus, make room for the shaman...cuz it makes chump blockers that arent' elves so u don't care if they die or not, and well snake form would have helped so much vs brew x.x lark is hard to attack through sometimes. Mono green's really not that great to go with. Only reason i chose to go mono green was cuz i was tired of playing those multi color decks....5cc and pwd get boring...turn 20 is pretty darn long.
Sb
colosus, garuk, fire spout, cloud threasher, deus of calamaty, oversoul of dusk and scatter shot archer... i dun remeber amounts but it was pretty jank just cuz i threw it together 3 mins b4 the tournament with w/e green i had laying around....colosus was such a good thing to have laying around.
I'm trying to build a gauntlet for our testing group, and I was wondering if there is a standard elves (G/B) build out there? Also, is there a good sideboard we can use to test with?
I'll be happy to test and report my results....etc. Our playtesting group is good (once, all six of us made a top 8 in a PTQ, and we've had more than 50% of us make day 2 at Grand Prixes...etc).
Lastly, is R/G elves a good archetype to test against?
this is pre-Alara Reborn. we're still trying to figure out how many Maelstrom Pulses to play in the md (i've been playing 3 Profane, 3 Terror, 2 Pulse but i think i want a third one).
the way you build the sb is pretty open.
you'll want 3-4 discard spells to help against control decks (Mind Shatter is the most popular choice, but Scepter of Fugue and Head Games have been used). if you're only playing three Thoughtsieze in the md, put the fourth one in the board.
you'll definitely want some kind of graveyard hate for Boat Brew. Puppeteer Clique is really good (can come in against 5CC, too). some people use Necrogenesis or Faerie Macabre. 2-4 of these.
one of the things that isn't debatable is Infest. you need these to beat aggro decks and Boat Brew. 3-4 of these.
you might want something for red decks. 2-3 Kitchen Finks or Primal Command (if you want).
1-3 flying hate (depending on how many Threshers in the md). more Cloudthreshers, usually. maybe a Hurricane or two.
and you'll probably end up with a few extra slots, which i usually just fill with Deathmarks or Naturalizes.
In your build, sure, those are the stats. Though the original hit is not the only time that Paragon is useful. Nor does it produce the same thing that Wolf-Skull does. They take your deck in different directions (and no, it doesn't have to be warrior elves), and change what plays you make, as well as the way your deck plays should you draw either card. Trample is very relevant in today's format, and I just think people are seriously devaluing its strength
I haven't seen cases where a lucky topdecked Shaman won someone the game immediately, without giving the opponent time to interact. I have seen cases where a lucky topdecked Paragon did.
I was taking the average from deckcheck comparing decks numbers. Obviously the things are skewed because builds are built to be more synergistic. Yeah there will always be times when certain cards have potential to be a blowout. Statistically the the Shaman is better but that does not mean play it over Paragon. The choice basically boils down to what you want to bem, the beatdown player or the controlling one.
I was taking the average from deckcheck comparing decks numbers. Obviously the things are skewed because builds are built to be more synergistic. Yeah there will always be times when certain cards have potential to be a blowout. Statistically the the Shaman is better but that does not mean play it over Paragon. The choice basically boils down to what you want to bem, the beatdown player or the controlling one.
I kind of agree with you. The paragon and the shaman are both very playable, depending the deck strutucture. In the various BG we most saw the shaman with the liege, in my opinion it's just the most reasonable choice (over the paragon liege option), because you put the wolfs in the race and get best blockers (and the liege isn't a warrior).
But there's nothing better than a paragon and a colossus just after. You get a counter boost to duplicate, and has the "risk", of a late paragon give back the trample and finish the game.
As lieges and colossus frenquently represents diferents decks choices in you deck I agree with you, they are in diferent decks.
Round 1
vs Ian playing EsperLark
Start with wayfinder and a few man lands lay a liege to start the beats. He plays a stillmoon and then tempts my liege with his faerie. I pulse the sower and activate a treetop to bash in. I thoughtseized a lark and then profaned another sower. Activate man lands to win G1.
G2 he kept a land with only filters and the I went vanquisher > leech > liege and won on turn 5 (the turn he finally gets colored mana)
Round 2
vs David playing Sanity Grinding.
My notes in this round are a bit sketchy but game 1 I played a llanowar then a leech and a treetop. He boomeranged the treetop any time I activated. I thoughtseized a cryptic. Attack through to knock him to 1. Force through a creature but he has evacuation in combat step, but post combat profane ends things.
G2 I get 2 early leeches and a vault and a garruk to provide some beats knocking him to 3 by turn 5 through more boomerangs and thoughtsieze stripping cryptic revealing a hand full of plumeveils and dream fractures. He gets out a Jace and a Howling Mine at some point and we start the long grind trying to kill him. He gets Jace up to 11 counters but I had Primal Command to reset it and shuffle my yard into my library. Soon after I try a profane which uses up his last counter and cast the Wheel of Sun and Moon. At one point he had 3 plumeveils in play. I mind shattered him 2x (one got twincast back at me). Finally I'm able to push a Treetop through when his hand is empty.
Round 3
vs Thomas playing BWg tokens
I start with Llanowars and a Finks. He plays Sculler pulling a Tresher. I laid a putrid leech, he redcaps my finks. I play a liege and attack him to 8 then he plays a finks and a bitterblossom. He then lays a husk to hold down my offense. he is at 7 when he plays Ajani Goldmane and attacks with some fliers to take me to 14. I cast pulse on the sculler and then play the thresher and ride him to victory, I think at some point the Liege and husk traded.
G2 he starts with sculler getting thresher I play Vanquisher and he comes back with spectral. I get a kitchen finks to get some early life. Then he lays Sigil Captain. I play a liege and bring the beats knocking him to 8(I'm at 19). He plays marsh flitter and gets a team of beasts, then in combat paths my liege to allow for good trades. I get another liege but it is too little too late as he just rides the sigil captain token thing to victory.
G3 I go Vanquisher > Liege with 2 Treetops mixed in. He starts Finks> Sigil Captain and goes to 7 when they both attack. Then he lays marsh flitter and follows that up with Ajani and allows his kitchen finks to die then attacks me to 9 with his pumped up vigilant tokens. I get a Civic Wayfinder but it doesn't impress in the face of a Procession of 3/3 spirits. he pumps his team with ajani and attacks, I flash in cloudthresher and block what I can productively (Leaving me with an empty board but him at 7 with me having 9 mana and profane in hand). So I take the opportunity to go large with profane.
*He had me beat this game but did not attack with the sigil captain on his alpha strike
Round 4
vs Trevor playing Kithken (mono white)
He starts with Stalwart then figure, I start with treetop then vanquisher. I use my 3rd turn to activate treetop and trade it with both his 1 drops. I lay a mutavault and smash that into his next figure. He plays Cenn which I profane and then profane FTW! The Vanquisher just would not be stopped this game.
My opening went Llanoar Elf > Leech > 2x Leech (turn 3). He played a cenn and a mutavault to try and stop the bloodsuckers but to no avail as this game ended on turn 5.
Round 5
vs Justin with Jund Ramp (top8)
G1 He mulls to 5 and I open with a thoughsieze taking Finks. I then lay llanowar and kitchen finks and let my 2 villages go to work. He pulses my finks but it isn't near enough.
G2 went very long I beat him to 2 with a vanquisher, liege, and leech before he lays a broodmate and 2x finks to hold me off for a bit. He has to primal command for a Colossus (and 7 life) to keep the leech off of him and kills my liege which gets replaced, but I get no action to end the game and just have to watch as the dragon beats me to 2 and he plays fallout.
G3 I thoughtsieze and take broodmate leaving a terminate in his hand. I lay 2x llanowar elves and a liege and garruk before he fallouts (I only had 2 lands in play). He pulsed my liege and then we got into a creature stall upon him pulling the dragon+1. He eventually gets warhammer and goes to town while I pine for a profane command that just won't show up.
Round 6
vs Mandee and his BW tokens (top8)
Basically I do nothing for a while as he goes blossom>finks>sculler>finks. I resolve a wayfinder, liege, and full cost vanquisher. He then lays cloudgoat and continues to pumel me even though I get a thresher in play. I die to glorious anthem sorely missing the winning profane.
G2 I mull (maybe 2x) but get a decent aggro hand and lay elf > elf+vanquisher>Liege>thoughtsieze and it ends fast
G3 was the most frustrating game in the tourney. I keep a hand with 2x Finks, 2x manlands, 2x other lands, and a profane (my first for the last 2 rounds). He gets 2nd turn BB and 3rd turn sculler (profane). I lay a finks and he scullers away my other. I then procede to draw 1 spell for the entire game (which ironically was a wayfinder to add to my 11-4 land/spell split) while he plops down Ajani and works on my face. I was able to put him to 11 and a profane or pulse and I would have been in the game regardless.
Round 7
vs James playing a different take on elves He thoughtseizes away my duress++ so I lead with an elf. He plays a 3/3 elf and I play a leech. He lays a wolf-skull shaman and lets my leech through (no life paid). I play a vanquisher and a liege and he plays Prowess of the Fair and another Vanquisher. We trade 1 of mine for 1 of his on the Vanquishers. He pulses my liege and I get a mid combat thresher. He has a thoughtsieze for my first profane but the 2nd one returns a liege and gives the thresher and 2x treetop fear FTW!
Game 2 I get double thoughtseize but he has a very good aggro hand. I stabilize with 2 leeches and he lays prowess again. It ends abruptly when he pulls pulse off the top and solves the riddle of the leeches.
G3 I go Vanquisher>Pulse(on his wolf-skull shaman)>Liege>Garruk and he is lacking on early plays so I overrun for the win!
Round 8
vs Justin playing Jund tokens
Justin and I are 11th and 12th and it looks like the people ahead of us won't be able to draw in due to a DQ and we are feeling decent about our chances. Aparently Justin has had quite the run of near misses and is really ready to get off the snide.
Game 1 I mull to 5 he mulls to 6 but he gets a blossom and I get a leech on t2. he follows it up with a siege-gang and I have to pulse the gobos then he lays furystoke and pumels me.
Game 2 I start with Vanquisher and he thoughseizes a pulse out of my hand. He gets a blossom and another thoughtseize for a thresher. Profane and an Ape land clean him out.
Game 3 I get a thoughtseize for his BB but he has another. I get a vanquisher and he plays a Gilt-Leaf Ambush in response which resulted in a clash of pulse on pulse. I lay a kitchen finks and pulse the blossom. He has a treetop and a few flying tokens take me to 5, I pulse his faerie rogues(taking 1 from a painland). Then I take 2 more for a liege and attack him to 2. He doesn't get what he needs off the top so I beat in for the win.
If I was going to change this deck the one thing that I wished for all the time was add a profane (except the mull to 5 game when I did pull 2). Basically a resolved profane = a win. I think I should have put a couple of infests in my board but I really didn't think tokens would be this prevalent. Also I've stayed out of the 2 drop debate but Leech was fantastic every time. When a broodmate is chumping a 2 drop (liege in play) you know you're on to something.
If I was going to change this deck the one thing that I wished for all the time was add a profane (except the mull to 5 game when I did pull 2). Basically a resolved profane = a win. I think I should have put a couple of infests in my board but I really didn't think tokens would be this prevalent. Also I've stayed out of the 2 drop debate but Leech was fantastic every time. When a broodmate is chumping a 2 drop (liege in play) you know you're on to something.
Didn't you have any problems with the casting cost of the leech? Didn't you, in any of your testes, took a removal and have a 2 life loss? I think it's a problem, cause the pain lands and thougseize already take snack on you life total.
I've been having a lot of success with this build, and am seriously considering rolling with this to regionals. I would like some life gain in the board via Kitchen Finks or something, but it is better against the rest of the field so..
I think the shaman and perfects make for a slower deck that is more susceptible to the format's mass removal(fallout and infest). I would not have had a shot at the jund ramp deck with a more tokeny build but, my match up against other token builds would maybe have been a little better but certainly the esper, ramp, jund tokens, kithken, and certainly sanity grinding would have suffered for it. The match up with tokens is funny because turns 1-4 I was the aggro then from 5 on I was either control or like a burn deck needing my reach.
I strongly endorse leech because he makes other decks suffer from not being able to remove your threats and trades with just about everything. As for casting the leech I do have 14 black sources for turn 2 and could have gotten away with another twilight mire in place of a forest if I was that woried. There were a few games (like game 3 of round 8) where the pain land pings added up but that will always be the case.
For the life total arguement that is why I went up to the max on finks (not a bad call anyways I don't think) and if you are getting raced and losing you don't have to pump the leech, but he also makes it very tough to race you because of that variable aspect.
I intentionaly ran removal light as there aren't a whole lot of things that this deck wants to kill on a 1 for 1 basis, my guys are bigger and badder than everyone but doran and bant but they aren't going to surprise you usually. Any deck running less than 4 pulses main is doing it wrong as that card is better than advertised and 2 for 1s at least a third of the time (remember my guys are bigger and faster so they are layering blockers to try and make decent trades). That said I would have liked to have another profane main and probably an eyeblight's in place of the two garruks. Garruk just didn't seem to get it done for me yesterday and only really shines against tokens and only if cast before they can control him. He would have won me the jund ramp match but he kept topdecking fallouts to redirect to the walker (the liege protected my team).
For improving the tokens matchup I recomend something like infest - which I agree is clunky and don't really like, or something to prifitably off that stupid sculler. The games where they resolved a turn 2 sculler were so much more difficult than other games. Perhaps a pair of viridian shamans to trade out with the wayfinders or filigree fracture which could also hit the blossoms and anthems. I've been thinking about it a lot and it really isn't that awful of a match up it is just tough to finish them and thresher can be too late as all their guys were 3/3s sometimes.
I think the shaman and perfects make for a slower deck that is more susceptible to the format's mass removal(fallout and infest). I would not have had a shot at the jund ramp deck with a more tokeny build but, my match up against other token builds would maybe have been a little better but certainly the esper, ramp, jund tokens, kithken, and certainly sanity grinding would have suffered for it. The match up with tokens is funny because turns 1-4 I was the aggro then from 5 on I was either control or like a burn deck needing my reach.
I strongly endorse leech because he makes other decks suffer from not being able to remove your threats and trades with just about everything. As for casting the leech I do have 14 black sources for turn 2 and could have gotten away with another twilight mire in place of a forest if I was that woried. There were a few games (like game 3 of round 8) where the pain land pings added up but that will always be the case.
For the life total arguement that is why I went up to the max on finks (not a bad call anyways I don't think) and if you are getting raced and losing you don't have to pump the leech, but he also makes it very tough to race you because of that variable aspect.
I intentionaly ran removal light as there aren't a whole lot of things that this deck wants to kill on a 1 for 1 basis, my guys are bigger and badder than everyone but doran and bant but they aren't going to surprise you usually. Any deck running less than 4 pulses main is doing it wrong as that card is better than advertised and 2 for 1s at least a third of the time (remember my guys are bigger and faster so they are layering blockers to try and make decent trades). That said I would have liked to have another profane main and probably an eyeblight's in place of the two garruks. Garruk just didn't seem to get it done for me yesterday and only really shines against tokens and only if cast before they can control him. He would have won me the jund ramp match but he kept topdecking fallouts to redirect to the walker (the liege protected my team).
For improving the tokens matchup I recomend something like infest - which I agree is clunky and don't really like, or something to prifitably off that stupid sculler. The games where they resolved a turn 2 sculler were so much more difficult than other games. Perhaps a pair of viridian shamans to trade out with the wayfinders or filigree fracture which could also hit the blossoms and anthems. I've been thinking about it a lot and it really isn't that awful of a match up it is just tough to finish them and thresher can be too late as all their guys were 3/3s sometimes.
I don't see how Shaman can be considered slow. For a 2 mana investment, you can generate a creature a turn, and is a very formidable foe against a lot of decks. If they don't draw a fallout within a turn or 2 of him being played, he is going to deal a considerable amount of damage. For that reason, I run only 3 pulse, and while I think it is a great card, it also DOES have some limitations in the deck. The most obvious is that it's not an elf, and while a lot of the deck are already elves, it is still relevant to a point.
Second, It can be very mediocre in the Elves, obviously. Eyeblight's is also terrible in this matchup, but the fact that it is an Instant and an elf is very relevant.
Garruk seems fine in a format that is relatively slow. In fact, I think Garruk gets better with Pulse, as you can clear out Spectral Tokens among other things. It is a great topdeck, and can swing tempo and games in your favor by itself.
I'm not trying to knock you, because obviously with your performance at the PTQ was good (Tough break on the 9th place finish), but your deck isn't so much Elves as it is just B/G aggro, which isn't a bad thing. I also think that your view of Leech may be slightly skewed, only because you didn't manage to play one Red deck without the PTQ. In my personal opinion, I think Blightning / Red Deck's aren't that viable past round 4, but there's a good chance of having to play against some at Regionals / PTQs because of the hype it is getting.
I do have a few questions, though:
How did the thoughtseizes work in the main? Personally, I don't like thoughtseize in the main anymore in this meta, but I'm curious to see how it worked.
Also, how did you like the sideboard? And, would you make any changes to it?
Thoughtseize was what it has always been, really good at clearing out things you have a problem with. It helps against control a lot against aggro it is kinda meh some times but other times if they kept slow hands it sweeps em out.
I would change the board. I realized today what I would put in the board is huricane as finishing was the problem against tokens so I would go -2 garruk main and +1 profane +1 eyeblight then go -1 primal -1 wheel for +2 huricane in the board or something like that. Pithing needle also wouldn't be a bad call (damn Ajani - both of them).
14 elves had me worried too and I think it may not be a bad call to include a colossus or two but I only had once when I was limited to paying 5 for vanquisher (and it was topdecked after I had cast a liege). There was another game where I didn't realize that my kitchen finks wasn't a liege and kept a bad hand because of it (and my opp thoughtsiezed on t1 to reveal my mistake) but a topdeck liege turned lemons into lemonade and I rolled.
Faeries is pretty much dead (or was certainly romped handily at dallas). Besides you do have great removal for what makes the deck work with 4 pulses for the blossoms and 2 threshers to clear them up. That is why I mained threshers over colossi though.
I like paragon and wolf-skull and rocked both of them at various points in block but they don't do enough for me as a two drop to put pressure on in the current format is my belief. A turn 2 paragon is better like 66% of the time but a turn 4+ leech is better like 90% of the time. Obviously with wolf-skull being kinda random it can be pure awesome but it still just makes a big pile of fallout fodder.
I think that if you play either of those you have to consider that against 5 color you are basically allowing them to ignore all but 8 or so of your creatures because plumes and fallouts deal with the rest wiithout giving up anything.
I like the other elf players sideboard tech of avatar of might (no idea it was even legal) that seems really solid against the token menace. There were 3 BW tokens in t8. Hey and my two losses duked it out for the finals!
Thoughtseize was what it has always been, really good at clearing out things you have a problem with. It helps against control a lot against aggro it is kinda meh some times but other times if they kept slow hands it sweeps em out.
I would change the board. I realized today what I would put in the board is huricane as finishing was the problem against tokens so I would go -2 garruk main and +1 profane +1 eyeblight then go -1 primal -1 wheel for +2 huricane in the board or something like that. Pithing needle also wouldn't be a bad call (damn Ajani - both of them).
14 elves had me worried too and I think it may not be a bad call to include a colossus or two but I only had once when I was limited to paying 5 for vanquisher (and it was topdecked after I had cast a liege). There was another game where I didn't realize that my kitchen finks wasn't a liege and kept a bad hand because of it (and my opp thoughtsiezed on t1 to reveal my mistake) but a topdeck liege turned lemons into lemonade and I rolled.
Faeries is pretty much dead (or was certainly romped handily at dallas). Besides you do have great removal for what makes the deck work with 4 pulses for the blossoms and 2 threshers to clear them up. That is why I mained threshers over colossi though.
I like paragon and wolf-skull and rocked both of them at various points in block but they don't do enough for me as a two drop to put pressure on in the current format is my belief. A turn 2 paragon is better like 66% of the time but a turn 4+ leech is better like 90% of the time. Obviously with wolf-skull being kinda random it can be pure awesome but it still just makes a big pile of fallout fodder.
I think that if you play either of those you have to consider that against 5 color you are basically allowing them to ignore all but 8 or so of your creatures because plumes and fallouts deal with the rest wiithout giving up anything.
I like the other elf players sideboard tech of avatar of might (no idea it was even legal) that seems really solid against the token menace. There were 3 BW tokens in t8. Hey and my two losses duked it out for the finals!
I agree that Fallout can be a issue, but I think that being scared of it all the time is a stretch. I know it just wrecks cards like Skull, but it also is pretty decent against the Leech, too. I mean, obviously the card is going to be aggro against the control decks, and they can just as easily as fallout in response to the pump.
That's the best part, if they have fallout mana open you don't pump. If they are bluffing the fallout and wasting their turns you are still getting decent damage and if they have the fallout then you take 4, they take 6, and you still have a wicked 2 drop.
I don't pretend to be the authoritative voice on this and there are matchups with pros and cons for the other bears but I do know that leech is a really strong play especially if you can manage the life loss and play smart with when to pump.
That's the best part, if they have fallout mana open you don't pump. If they are bluffing the fallout and wasting their turns you are still getting decent damage and if they have the fallout then you take 4, they take 6, and you still have a wicked 2 drop.
I don't pretend to be the authoritative voice on this and there are matchups with pros and cons for the other bears but I do know that leech is a really strong play especially if you can manage the life loss and play smart with when to pump.
And I totally 100% agree with that. Personally, I expect a lot of Red Deck from my Regionals, which would make the Leech not as good as other options, but there is no doubt that it is strong.
I've read the last 10 pages and playtested this deck before Alara Reborn, and it felt a bit underpowered against B/W Tokens and 5c Control. But I'm very interessted in this deck and would like to play it - so my questions is, how is this decks chances against B/W Tokens, 5c and Boat Brew? Did Maelstrom Pulse improve the powerlevel of this deck?
I have been testing this deck recently and if you play smart you should not have much of an issue with 5cc.. i side in mind shatter and eyes of the wisent, its tech. Fae is a totally different situation though.. I tend to have more problems with this match up as fae plays much faster than other control decks. If anyone could suggest some success they have had against fae it would help out my meta is filled with it.
My list//
treetop villiage x4
mutavault x4
llanowar waste x4
gilt leaf palace x4
twighlight mire x2
forest x3
swamp x2
llanowar elf x4
wren's run vanq x4
wolf-skull shaman x4 (not sure if i want to switch to putrid)
kitchen finks x4
wilf leaf liege x3
chameleon colossus x3
cloudthresher x2
Mpulse x4
terror x3
eyesblight ending x3
profane command x3
any suggestions to this list are welcome.
(I SB thoughtseize)
To help vs Blightning, which is what i guess the RB deck you went against was, its a good idea to have Wilt-leaf Liege somewhere in your 75. Plus just playing guys and using your man lands and creatures wisely to plow through their burn. If you run terror, side them out, if not keep the Eyeblight's Ending's in as they kill Demigod and Ram-gang and such. Keeping thoughtseize in helps a lot due to hitting Anathemancer and any of the many burn spells they have. For my sideboarding I use Primal Command, its always an all star vs Blightning due to the life increase and fetching more creatures. Hope this helps.
Bloodbraid Elf is the NUTS! Every card in your deck you can play off of it, minus the exception of Garruk Wildspeaker and Wilt-Leaf Liege. And you probably wouldn't want to play a Profane off of it either.
I don't have a sideboard built yet, but some cards that will most likely be in there are:
Dunno:D
I'm trying to build a gauntlet for our testing group, and I was wondering if there is a standard elves (G/B) build out there? Also, is there a good sideboard we can use to test with?
I'll be happy to test and report my results....etc. Our playtesting group is good (once, all six of us made a top 8 in a PTQ, and we've had more than 50% of us make day 2 at Grand Prixes...etc).
Lastly, is R/G elves a good archetype to test against?
Thanks everybody.
I haven't seen cases where a lucky topdecked Shaman won someone the game immediately, without giving the opponent time to interact. I have seen cases where a lucky topdecked Paragon did.
Creatures
1x rhys, the redeemed
4x llanwar elves
4x heritage druid
4x nettle sentinel
3x twinblade slasher
4x devoted druid
4x bramblewood paragon
4x imperious perfect
4x elvish harbinger
2x regal force
total 34
Spells
2x elvish prominade
4x hunting triad
total 6
Artifacts
3x coat of arms
total 3
Lands
17x Forest
Yeah the side board was really the most important part to win the final. My match ups weren't that easy boat brew, some blightning deck updated, and a G/B aggro deck with the lord of extinction. I should've lost to the brew, but he didn't draw his fallouts or ***'s game 3...should've lost to blightning but blew up both games and won t4 both games. There are changes that should've been made to the deck though, ie. md colosus, make room for the shaman...cuz it makes chump blockers that arent' elves so u don't care if they die or not, and well snake form would have helped so much vs brew x.x lark is hard to attack through sometimes. Mono green's really not that great to go with. Only reason i chose to go mono green was cuz i was tired of playing those multi color decks....5cc and pwd get boring...turn 20 is pretty darn long.
Sb
colosus, garuk, fire spout, cloud threasher, deus of calamaty, oversoul of dusk and scatter shot archer... i dun remeber amounts but it was pretty jank just cuz i threw it together 3 mins b4 the tournament with w/e green i had laying around....colosus was such a good thing to have laying around.
the basic build is roughly:
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Wolf-Skull Shaman (some people play Bramblewood Paragon, but Shaman's better)
2 Cloudthresher (2 is totally solid)
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
this is pre-Alara Reborn. we're still trying to figure out how many Maelstrom Pulses to play in the md (i've been playing 3 Profane, 3 Terror, 2 Pulse but i think i want a third one).
the way you build the sb is pretty open.
you'll want 3-4 discard spells to help against control decks (Mind Shatter is the most popular choice, but Scepter of Fugue and Head Games have been used). if you're only playing three Thoughtsieze in the md, put the fourth one in the board.
you'll definitely want some kind of graveyard hate for Boat Brew. Puppeteer Clique is really good (can come in against 5CC, too). some people use Necrogenesis or Faerie Macabre. 2-4 of these.
one of the things that isn't debatable is Infest. you need these to beat aggro decks and Boat Brew. 3-4 of these.
you might want something for red decks. 2-3 Kitchen Finks or Primal Command (if you want).
1-3 flying hate (depending on how many Threshers in the md). more Cloudthreshers, usually. maybe a Hurricane or two.
and you'll probably end up with a few extra slots, which i usually just fill with Deathmarks or Naturalizes.
or you could just steal a list from deckcheck.
My Type 4 stack (Cube Tutor link)
I was taking the average from deckcheck comparing decks numbers. Obviously the things are skewed because builds are built to be more synergistic. Yeah there will always be times when certain cards have potential to be a blowout. Statistically the the Shaman is better but that does not mean play it over Paragon. The choice basically boils down to what you want to bem, the beatdown player or the controlling one.
Dunno:D
I kind of agree with you. The paragon and the shaman are both very playable, depending the deck strutucture. In the various BG we most saw the shaman with the liege, in my opinion it's just the most reasonable choice (over the paragon liege option), because you put the wolfs in the race and get best blockers (and the liege isn't a warrior).
But there's nothing better than a paragon and a colossus just after. You get a counter boost to duplicate, and has the "risk", of a late paragon give back the trample and finish the game.
As lieges and colossus frenquently represents diferents decks choices in you deck I agree with you, they are in diferent decks.
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Treetop Village
4 Mutavault
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Putrid Leech
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Civic Wayfinder
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Cloudtresher
3 Profane Command
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Mind Shatter
2 Cloudthresher
2 Primal Command
3 Snakeform
3 Deathmark
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Round 1
vs Ian playing EsperLark
Start with wayfinder and a few man lands lay a liege to start the beats. He plays a stillmoon and then tempts my liege with his faerie. I pulse the sower and activate a treetop to bash in. I thoughtseized a lark and then profaned another sower. Activate man lands to win G1.
G2 he kept a land with only filters and the I went vanquisher > leech > liege and won on turn 5 (the turn he finally gets colored mana)
Round 2
vs David playing Sanity Grinding.
My notes in this round are a bit sketchy but game 1 I played a llanowar then a leech and a treetop. He boomeranged the treetop any time I activated. I thoughtseized a cryptic. Attack through to knock him to 1. Force through a creature but he has evacuation in combat step, but post combat profane ends things.
G2 I get 2 early leeches and a vault and a garruk to provide some beats knocking him to 3 by turn 5 through more boomerangs and thoughtsieze stripping cryptic revealing a hand full of plumeveils and dream fractures. He gets out a Jace and a Howling Mine at some point and we start the long grind trying to kill him. He gets Jace up to 11 counters but I had Primal Command to reset it and shuffle my yard into my library. Soon after I try a profane which uses up his last counter and cast the Wheel of Sun and Moon. At one point he had 3 plumeveils in play. I mind shattered him 2x (one got twincast back at me). Finally I'm able to push a Treetop through when his hand is empty.
Round 3
vs Thomas playing BWg tokens
I start with Llanowars and a Finks. He plays Sculler pulling a Tresher. I laid a putrid leech, he redcaps my finks. I play a liege and attack him to 8 then he plays a finks and a bitterblossom. He then lays a husk to hold down my offense. he is at 7 when he plays Ajani Goldmane and attacks with some fliers to take me to 14. I cast pulse on the sculler and then play the thresher and ride him to victory, I think at some point the Liege and husk traded.
G2 he starts with sculler getting thresher I play Vanquisher and he comes back with spectral. I get a kitchen finks to get some early life. Then he lays Sigil Captain. I play a liege and bring the beats knocking him to 8(I'm at 19). He plays marsh flitter and gets a team of beasts, then in combat paths my liege to allow for good trades. I get another liege but it is too little too late as he just rides the sigil captain token thing to victory.
G3 I go Vanquisher > Liege with 2 Treetops mixed in. He starts Finks> Sigil Captain and goes to 7 when they both attack. Then he lays marsh flitter and follows that up with Ajani and allows his kitchen finks to die then attacks me to 9 with his pumped up vigilant tokens. I get a Civic Wayfinder but it doesn't impress in the face of a Procession of 3/3 spirits. he pumps his team with ajani and attacks, I flash in cloudthresher and block what I can productively (Leaving me with an empty board but him at 7 with me having 9 mana and profane in hand). So I take the opportunity to go large with profane.
*He had me beat this game but did not attack with the sigil captain on his alpha strike
Round 4
vs Trevor playing Kithken (mono white)
He starts with Stalwart then figure, I start with treetop then vanquisher. I use my 3rd turn to activate treetop and trade it with both his 1 drops. I lay a mutavault and smash that into his next figure. He plays Cenn which I profane and then profane FTW! The Vanquisher just would not be stopped this game.
My opening went Llanoar Elf > Leech > 2x Leech (turn 3). He played a cenn and a mutavault to try and stop the bloodsuckers but to no avail as this game ended on turn 5.
Round 5
vs Justin with Jund Ramp (top8)
G1 He mulls to 5 and I open with a thoughsieze taking Finks. I then lay llanowar and kitchen finks and let my 2 villages go to work. He pulses my finks but it isn't near enough.
G2 went very long I beat him to 2 with a vanquisher, liege, and leech before he lays a broodmate and 2x finks to hold me off for a bit. He has to primal command for a Colossus (and 7 life) to keep the leech off of him and kills my liege which gets replaced, but I get no action to end the game and just have to watch as the dragon beats me to 2 and he plays fallout.
G3 I thoughtsieze and take broodmate leaving a terminate in his hand. I lay 2x llanowar elves and a liege and garruk before he fallouts (I only had 2 lands in play). He pulsed my liege and then we got into a creature stall upon him pulling the dragon+1. He eventually gets warhammer and goes to town while I pine for a profane command that just won't show up.
Round 6
vs Mandee and his BW tokens (top8)
Basically I do nothing for a while as he goes blossom>finks>sculler>finks. I resolve a wayfinder, liege, and full cost vanquisher. He then lays cloudgoat and continues to pumel me even though I get a thresher in play. I die to glorious anthem sorely missing the winning profane.
G2 I mull (maybe 2x) but get a decent aggro hand and lay elf > elf+vanquisher>Liege>thoughtsieze and it ends fast
G3 was the most frustrating game in the tourney. I keep a hand with 2x Finks, 2x manlands, 2x other lands, and a profane (my first for the last 2 rounds). He gets 2nd turn BB and 3rd turn sculler (profane). I lay a finks and he scullers away my other. I then procede to draw 1 spell for the entire game (which ironically was a wayfinder to add to my 11-4 land/spell split) while he plops down Ajani and works on my face. I was able to put him to 11 and a profane or pulse and I would have been in the game regardless.
Round 7
vs James playing a different take on elves
He thoughtseizes away my duress++ so I lead with an elf. He plays a 3/3 elf and I play a leech. He lays a wolf-skull shaman and lets my leech through (no life paid). I play a vanquisher and a liege and he plays Prowess of the Fair and another Vanquisher. We trade 1 of mine for 1 of his on the Vanquishers. He pulses my liege and I get a mid combat thresher. He has a thoughtsieze for my first profane but the 2nd one returns a liege and gives the thresher and 2x treetop fear FTW!
Game 2 I get double thoughtseize but he has a very good aggro hand. I stabilize with 2 leeches and he lays prowess again. It ends abruptly when he pulls pulse off the top and solves the riddle of the leeches.
G3 I go Vanquisher>Pulse(on his wolf-skull shaman)>Liege>Garruk and he is lacking on early plays so I overrun for the win!
Round 8
vs Justin playing Jund tokens
Justin and I are 11th and 12th and it looks like the people ahead of us won't be able to draw in due to a DQ and we are feeling decent about our chances. Aparently Justin has had quite the run of near misses and is really ready to get off the snide.
Game 1 I mull to 5 he mulls to 6 but he gets a blossom and I get a leech on t2. he follows it up with a siege-gang and I have to pulse the gobos then he lays furystoke and pumels me.
Game 2 I start with Vanquisher and he thoughseizes a pulse out of my hand. He gets a blossom and another thoughtseize for a thresher. Profane and an Ape land clean him out.
Game 3 I get a thoughtseize for his BB but he has another. I get a vanquisher and he plays a Gilt-Leaf Ambush in response which resulted in a clash of pulse on pulse. I lay a kitchen finks and pulse the blossom. He has a treetop and a few flying tokens take me to 5, I pulse his faerie rogues(taking 1 from a painland). Then I take 2 more for a liege and attack him to 2. He doesn't get what he needs off the top so I beat in for the win.
If I was going to change this deck the one thing that I wished for all the time was add a profane (except the mull to 5 game when I did pull 2). Basically a resolved profane = a win. I think I should have put a couple of infests in my board but I really didn't think tokens would be this prevalent. Also I've stayed out of the 2 drop debate but Leech was fantastic every time. When a broodmate is chumping a 2 drop (liege in play) you know you're on to something.
Didn't you have any problems with the casting cost of the leech? Didn't you, in any of your testes, took a removal and have a 2 life loss? I think it's a problem, cause the pain lands and thougseize already take snack on you life total.
2 [EVE] Twilight Mire
4 [9E] Forest (3)
2 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [UL] Treetop Village
3 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [LRW] Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 [9E] Llanowar Wastes
4 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 [LRW] Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 [FNM] Llanowar Elves
4 [MOR] Wolf-Skull Shaman
4 [10E] Civic Wayfinder
3 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
2 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
1 [10E] Loxodon Warhammer
3 [LRW] Profane Command
2 [LRW] Nameless Inversion
3 [LRW] Eyeblight's Ending
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [10E] Loxodon Warhammer
SB: 3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 3 [ALA] Necrogenesis
SB: 3 [ON] Infest
SB: 2 [MOR] Mind Shatter
I've been having a lot of success with this build, and am seriously considering rolling with this to regionals. I would like some life gain in the board via Kitchen Finks or something, but it is better against the rest of the field so..
I strongly endorse leech because he makes other decks suffer from not being able to remove your threats and trades with just about everything. As for casting the leech I do have 14 black sources for turn 2 and could have gotten away with another twilight mire in place of a forest if I was that woried. There were a few games (like game 3 of round 8) where the pain land pings added up but that will always be the case.
For the life total arguement that is why I went up to the max on finks (not a bad call anyways I don't think) and if you are getting raced and losing you don't have to pump the leech, but he also makes it very tough to race you because of that variable aspect.
I intentionaly ran removal light as there aren't a whole lot of things that this deck wants to kill on a 1 for 1 basis, my guys are bigger and badder than everyone but doran and bant but they aren't going to surprise you usually. Any deck running less than 4 pulses main is doing it wrong as that card is better than advertised and 2 for 1s at least a third of the time (remember my guys are bigger and faster so they are layering blockers to try and make decent trades). That said I would have liked to have another profane main and probably an eyeblight's in place of the two garruks. Garruk just didn't seem to get it done for me yesterday and only really shines against tokens and only if cast before they can control him. He would have won me the jund ramp match but he kept topdecking fallouts to redirect to the walker (the liege protected my team).
For improving the tokens matchup I recomend something like infest - which I agree is clunky and don't really like, or something to prifitably off that stupid sculler. The games where they resolved a turn 2 sculler were so much more difficult than other games. Perhaps a pair of viridian shamans to trade out with the wayfinders or filigree fracture which could also hit the blossoms and anthems. I've been thinking about it a lot and it really isn't that awful of a match up it is just tough to finish them and thresher can be too late as all their guys were 3/3s sometimes.
I don't see how Shaman can be considered slow. For a 2 mana investment, you can generate a creature a turn, and is a very formidable foe against a lot of decks. If they don't draw a fallout within a turn or 2 of him being played, he is going to deal a considerable amount of damage. For that reason, I run only 3 pulse, and while I think it is a great card, it also DOES have some limitations in the deck. The most obvious is that it's not an elf, and while a lot of the deck are already elves, it is still relevant to a point.
Second, It can be very mediocre in the Elves, obviously. Eyeblight's is also terrible in this matchup, but the fact that it is an Instant and an elf is very relevant.
Garruk seems fine in a format that is relatively slow. In fact, I think Garruk gets better with Pulse, as you can clear out Spectral Tokens among other things. It is a great topdeck, and can swing tempo and games in your favor by itself.
I'm not trying to knock you, because obviously with your performance at the PTQ was good (Tough break on the 9th place finish), but your deck isn't so much Elves as it is just B/G aggro, which isn't a bad thing. I also think that your view of Leech may be slightly skewed, only because you didn't manage to play one Red deck without the PTQ. In my personal opinion, I think Blightning / Red Deck's aren't that viable past round 4, but there's a good chance of having to play against some at Regionals / PTQs because of the hype it is getting.
I do have a few questions, though:
How did the thoughtseizes work in the main? Personally, I don't like thoughtseize in the main anymore in this meta, but I'm curious to see how it worked.
Also, how did you like the sideboard? And, would you make any changes to it?
Thanks, and good show in Dallas!
-Lukas
Also, any thoughts on no instant speed removal? I can imagine the matchup against faeries being very hard.
Congrats on the finish. I've been playing around with G/R and B/R but I think this deck is a lot better.
It puts your Wayfinders and Perfects (and your Perfect's tokens) out of range.
I think it's a really underrated card.
I swarm with the bees and diseases...
I would change the board. I realized today what I would put in the board is huricane as finishing was the problem against tokens so I would go -2 garruk main and +1 profane +1 eyeblight then go -1 primal -1 wheel for +2 huricane in the board or something like that. Pithing needle also wouldn't be a bad call (damn Ajani - both of them).
14 elves had me worried too and I think it may not be a bad call to include a colossus or two but I only had once when I was limited to paying 5 for vanquisher (and it was topdecked after I had cast a liege). There was another game where I didn't realize that my kitchen finks wasn't a liege and kept a bad hand because of it (and my opp thoughtsiezed on t1 to reveal my mistake) but a topdeck liege turned lemons into lemonade and I rolled.
Faeries is pretty much dead (or was certainly romped handily at dallas). Besides you do have great removal for what makes the deck work with 4 pulses for the blossoms and 2 threshers to clear them up. That is why I mained threshers over colossi though.
I like paragon and wolf-skull and rocked both of them at various points in block but they don't do enough for me as a two drop to put pressure on in the current format is my belief. A turn 2 paragon is better like 66% of the time but a turn 4+ leech is better like 90% of the time. Obviously with wolf-skull being kinda random it can be pure awesome but it still just makes a big pile of fallout fodder.
I think that if you play either of those you have to consider that against 5 color you are basically allowing them to ignore all but 8 or so of your creatures because plumes and fallouts deal with the rest wiithout giving up anything.
I like the other elf players sideboard tech of avatar of might (no idea it was even legal) that seems really solid against the token menace. There were 3 BW tokens in t8. Hey and my two losses duked it out for the finals!
I agree that Fallout can be a issue, but I think that being scared of it all the time is a stretch. I know it just wrecks cards like Skull, but it also is pretty decent against the Leech, too. I mean, obviously the card is going to be aggro against the control decks, and they can just as easily as fallout in response to the pump.
I don't pretend to be the authoritative voice on this and there are matchups with pros and cons for the other bears but I do know that leech is a really strong play especially if you can manage the life loss and play smart with when to pump.
And I totally 100% agree with that. Personally, I expect a lot of Red Deck from my Regionals, which would make the Leech not as good as other options, but there is no doubt that it is strong.
You've spammed this message in at least four different threads -- probably more. Infraction for spamming.
Actually, it was fourteen threads. I just counted.
[Official Thread] Kithkin Aggro
[Official Thread] Blightning Aggro
[Official Thread] Faeries
[Official Thread] Five-Color Control
[Official Thread] BW Tokens
[Official Thread] Vengeant Lark
[Official Thread] Bant
[Official Thread] Swan Assault
[Official Thread] Mana Ramp
[Official Thread] Jund Tokens
[Official Thread] Esper Lark
[Official Thread] Naya Aggro
[Official Thread] Planeswalkers
[Official Thread] Elves
If you need to contact me, don't use PM's, use my IM handle or Email
My list//
treetop villiage x4
mutavault x4
llanowar waste x4
gilt leaf palace x4
twighlight mire x2
forest x3
swamp x2
llanowar elf x4
wren's run vanq x4
wolf-skull shaman x4 (not sure if i want to switch to putrid)
kitchen finks x4
wilf leaf liege x3
chameleon colossus x3
cloudthresher x2
Mpulse x4
terror x3
eyesblight ending x3
profane command x3
any suggestions to this list are welcome.
(I SB thoughtseize)
So here's the list:
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Bramblewood Paragon
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Civic Wayfinder
3 Terminate
2 Profane Command
2 Obsidian Battle Axe
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Treetop Village
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Twilight Mire
3 Karpulsan Forest
2 Mutavault
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Bloodbraid Elf is the NUTS! Every card in your deck you can play off of it, minus the exception of Garruk Wildspeaker and Wilt-Leaf Liege. And you probably wouldn't want to play a Profane off of it either.
I don't have a sideboard built yet, but some cards that will most likely be in there are:
Thought Hemorage
Thoughtseize
Anathemancer
EDIT: Realized I was an IDIOT.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=333582