Maybe we should try running Unsummon. It's cheap, instant speed, causes your opponent to lose tempo by having to replay the threat, plus it can deal with Malakir Bloodwitch. Pro-white hurts this deck, badly. Path can't touch it, and none of our best creatures can either.
Also some of these control builds I've seen run Iona. If they play her naming white, we're basically screwed. Unsummon / Path gives us threats from two different colors.
I know the main argument against bounce is that it doesn't forever remove the creature, but in Bant aggro one addition turn to beat in is usually all it takes anyway.
No, unsummon is bad magic. And if Bant gets to a point where they can hard cast Iona, we're in top deck mode and have probably already lost.
Bant NEEDS something. If the biggest additions from Zendikar are fetchlands and Vines of Vastwood, I don't see Bant Aggro becoming Tier 1. Bant is awesome if it doesn't get disrupted, but how realistic is that? Lotus Cobra allows Bant to keep a similar curve, playing the same cards, but leaves extra mana open for counter-magic.
/shrug
I'll go ahead and throw something together and test it out this week. My Naya Zoo deck has gone as far as it can go I think.
Lotus Cobra does absolutely nothing for Bant. Every example shown where Cobra is "awesome" is an example of a perfect hand. Here in the real world, I'll use Noble/ Birds to get a good T2 threat out and not have to:
a) worry about what to replace with Cobra
b) dish out $120 for a playset of them
I dunno, it sells itself.
On the topic of Bant Charm. It's needed. Trust me. Nothing can do what it does, like it does. And if you're running the proper manabase, it's not difficult to come by :symw::symu::symg:. Hell, if it was hard to come by, why run Jenara, Rhox War Monk, Rafiq, or Finest Hour? I don't see it as being a burden, but I can see myself going -2 Charm +2 Vines, just for testing purposes if nothing else.
I know the logic about why it's bad. "You lose a card and they still have their threat yada yada yada"
However Bant Charm lets them keep their threat, although it's at the bottom of their deck. Unsummon also lets us save our own creatures, too.
If you are to run a bounce, at least, run Into the Roil.
It costs more, but you draw a card and it targets most permanents.
For the rest, right now, I just got CRUSHED by a token deck (this thing still exists?) and I feel really angry about it. Emeria Angel is such a *****... really... chump block forever... and ever... and ever... oh... a fetchland? That's more blockers...
I tried to path her, just gives him enough mana to cast Conqueror's Pledge. Seriously, I prefer facing Baneslayer than this ****... At least, I can outrace baneslayer with a Monk. Against tokens... if you don't draw the sledge or finest hour quite fast... it's over (guess what, I didn't).
I know it's just two games in a row... but it was such a beat... still hurts...
If you are to run a bounce, at least, run Into the Roil.
It costs more, but you draw a card and it targets most permanents.
For the rest, right now, I just got CRUSHED by a token deck (this thing still exists?) and I feel really angry about it. Emeria Angel is such a *****... really... chump block forever... and ever... and ever... oh... a fetchland? That's more blockers...
I tried to path her, just gives him enough mana to cast Conqueror's Pledge. Seriously, I prefer facing Baneslayer than this ****... At least, I can outrace baneslayer with a Monk. Against tokens... if you don't draw the sledge or finest hour quite fast... it's over (guess what, I didn't).
I know it's just two games in a row... but it was such a beat... still hurts...
Bant Charm wants to give you a hug, but you left him at home in your box of cards.
If you are to run a bounce, at least, run Into the Roil.
It costs more, but you draw a card and it targets most permanents.
For the rest, right now, I just got CRUSHED by a token deck (this thing still exists?) and I feel really angry about it. Emeria Angel is such a *****... really... chump block forever... and ever... and ever... oh... a fetchland? That's more blockers...
I tried to path her, just gives him enough mana to cast Conqueror's Pledge. Seriously, I prefer facing Baneslayer than this ****... At least, I can outrace baneslayer with a Monk. Against tokens... if you don't draw the sledge or finest hour quite fast... it's over (guess what, I didn't).
I know it's just two games in a row... but it was such a beat... still hurts...
This is part of why Infiltrator is still relevant. And Bant Charm, for that matter. Also, what were you doing not keeping mana up for Negate if he was approaching 5 mana? I'd forgive you if you didn't have one or forgot about Pledge, but otherwise it wasn't a good plan.
Well I've posted up a deck archtype that is usually just played in type 1 because of its ability to utilize the known winning archtypes and Force of Will+Meddling Mage to break games. Well I think I might have developed a bant aggro-trol deck that uses similar techniques but with higher manacost finishers and a lot of Protection.
O.K. so here is the best part of this deck, it's unexpected. Why you may ask? Unexpected Cards: Meddling Mage: Who would think that someone would run this main board. It is one of those cards that draws removal like a ***** (see shards image) and can be one of those cards that people just hate to see played.
Ethersworn Canonist: Really unexpected because it is usually a sideboard card against aggro or combo. Well if anyone hasn't noticed it yet then they haven't seen the new aggro metagame in most areas and with the new card known as Lotus Cobra that will be bringing what seems to be prophesized as REDICUCOMBOS to magic meta everywhere.
Vines of Vastwood: Well its a mediocre common that will probably be used mostly in monogreen deck that can utilize the two green mana early on to protect and pump their early creatures. In this deck its more of a "Hey Lets name a win-con with Meddling Mage and watch you waste removal on a card that will just sit there laughing at you"
Emeria Angel: I believed that someone on this page has really had a bad experience with this... what did he call it
Oh Yeah thats right. Hopefully she should be easily able to finish the game with a fetch or two and just makes itself better because the curve is so low that you can stockpile lands until you drop the angel and make her a two for one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Old School Like the Old school
:evillol:Thanks to .toRRent for the awesome Avi and Piet for the Banner:evillol:
Lotus Cobra does absolutely nothing for Bant. Every example shown where Cobra is "awesome" is an example of a perfect hand. Here in the real world, I'll use Noble/ Birds to get a good T2 threat out and not have to:
a) worry about what to replace with Cobra
b) dish out $120 for a playset of them
I dunno, it sells itself.
On the topic of Bant Charm. It's needed. Trust me. Nothing can do what it does, like it does. And if you're running the proper manabase, it's not difficult to come by :symw::symu::symg:. Hell, if it was hard to come by, why run Jenara, Rhox War Monk, Rafiq, or Finest Hour? I don't see it as being a burden, but I can see myself going -2 Charm +2 Vines, just for testing purposes if nothing else.
I still see an issue with the cost of it. Yeah, its easy to pop out the creatures, it was just alot harder to have :symw::symu::symg: for the Monk / Rafiq / ect. AND an additional :symw::symu::symg: for the Bant. As the game draws out I dont see it being much of an issue, but racing those first 4 or 5 turns, I wish I would of had Paths or Vines to help out there instead of Charms I couldnt cast while being as aggresive as I felt I needed to be.
I still see an issue with the cost of it. Yeah, its easy to pop out the creatures, it was just alot harder to have :symw::symu::symg: for the Monk / Rafiq / ect. AND an additional :symw::symu::symg: for the Bant. As the game draws out I dont see it being much of an issue, but racing those first 4 or 5 turns, I wish I would of had Paths or Vines to help out there instead of Charms I couldnt cast while being as aggresive as I felt I needed to be.
Oh, with 4 Negate and 3- 4 Vines, I just run 2-3. That way it's not a problem early game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Oh, with 4 Negate and 3- 4 Vines, I just run 2-3. That way it's not a problem early game.
Bant charm still feels like a dead card in an opening hand to me though. Unless there is something supremely pressing on the field that I need to get rid of with it, it just sits in my hand until turn 5-6 when I use it get rid of a win-con creature or pesky blocker.
Just about the only time I was glad to draw them tonight was vs a Luminarch ascension Deck that sided in Pithing needle targeting my Pridemages. I had to use the bant charm to pop the needle so I could sac my pridemage to clear out the ascension. (I sided in the Bants because during game 1 the guy was trying to get & remember pridemage's name, dead giveaway for needles incoming)
I think the countering part of bant charm is very rarely used, but the option of creature removal that bypasses indestructible or artifact hate is always welcome. I'm keeping mine in the SB for the moment in favor of more Vines/negates, but I can see them sticking around in the MD as a 2-of. I was quite happy with vines as a "save my beater" card though. It is probably just how new the set is, but people still seem surprised when I leave just G open, and am able to counter some removal.
Do you think the "comes into play tapped" will be an issue at all with Oran-Reif? I always hated those words (Reason I only run 2 Citadels). I can see where it will be nice to put our guys out of bolt range, I just want to make sure the tapped effect wont mess up our mana efficiency before i put it in.
Just about the only time I was glad to draw them tonight was vs a Luminarch ascension Deck that sided in Pithing needle targeting my Pridemages. I had to use the bant charm to pop the needle so I could sac my pridemage to clear out the ascension. (I sided in the Bants because during game 1 the guy was trying to get & remember pridemage's name, dead giveaway for needles incoming)
That was silly of him; he could have just said 'that exalted dude that sacs to kill artifacts and enchantments' for the Needle. It's legit.
Do you think the "comes into play tapped" will be an issue at all with Oran-Reif? I always hated those words (Reason I only run 2 Citadels). I can see where it will be nice to put our guys out of bolt range, I just want to make sure the tapped effect wont mess up our mana efficiency before i put it in.
Yes, it is a very significant issue (and frankly, I'd stay away from Citadel altogether if I were you). But Oran-Rief has a big, big upside, so I think it's at least worth a try.
Problem with those lands though, is that in addition to entering tapped like Citadels, they suck up basic land slots that would be used to bring the Sunpetal Groves in ready.
How can a card with Vastwood in its name not be a forest?
I'm running 22 lands. I might get rid of 2 spells to add in two Oran Riefs. All you people who run 24 lands just need to switch out 2 CIPT lands for these.
Yeah thats what worries me. At the moment I run Groves, Glaciers and Citadels. It really seems like I am going to have to rework my mana base again. Blah. If I had to choose between Citadels or Oran-Reif though, I would probably stick with the Citadels. They just keep my options open for the spells I need. Paths, Vines, or the U for Negate. I dont know, Ill do some testing with Oran-Reif and see if it weighs me down as much as I think its going to.
Oran-rien is interesting, but i'm unsure of it's place in Bant. It would be really cool to use it on infiltrators to make them harder to kill and do more damage, but its only other use would be to beef up late game rafiqs or Rhox. I don't think a single 1/1 counter is worth messing with your manabase and using a CIPT land that basically adds 1 to the cmc of a creature to make it 1 P/T bigger.
I suggest we all go and test Oran-Rief in our various builds to see how it hold up. I don't think a purely theoretical examination of it will gets us far, because it's hard ot weigh the costs and benefits without hard evidence.
I suggest we all go and test Oran-Rief in our various builds to see how it hold up. I don't think a purely theoretical examination of it will gets us far, because it's hard ot weigh the costs and benefits without hard evidence.
I agree with you here viper, this seems like a hard card to rule in or out without testing. As soon as I can get some in, I'll let ya know.
Has anyone tried the thought of taking out FH/RotM and putting in Nulltread Gargantuan/Lorescale Coatl? I was thinking more o a midrange/control aggro-ish build, Something along the lines of (rough list, Obviously)
Something along those lines. I dunno, just the whole exalted/ one attacker basically says to me "if you have spot removal, I lose the game" I played two or three of those bant exalted decks at regionals this summer and beat them all very easily, playing RB Demigod. Just seems a bit fragile unless you want to use some of the creature slots to play counter magic to protect your dudes. VotVW works pretty well for that, I guess, but it still seems fragile. And the idea of a 5/6 on turn 2 is really exciting...!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing Standard: BloodQuake Grixis Zombies Esper Mill Blue Green Gro Valakut Control
Has anyone tried the thought of taking out FH/RotM and putting in Nulltread Gargantuan/Lorescale Coatl? I was thinking more o a midrange/control aggro-ish build, Something along the lines of (rough list, Obviously)
Something along those lines. I dunno, just the whole exalted/ one attacker basically says to me "if you have spot removal, I lose the game" I played two or three of those bant exalted decks at regionals this summer and beat them all very easily, playing RB Demigod. Just seems a bit fragile unless you want to use some of the creature slots to play counter magic to protect your dudes. VotVW works pretty well for that, I guess, but it still seems fragile. And the idea of a 5/6 on turn 2 is really exciting...!
That's why we devote so many slots to protecting the champs!
Lorescale is pretty meh outside of a deck with lots of draw. I'd rather have a Flipper/Jenara any day. Nulltread is just too risky. Yes, it's a 5/6. But this guy says 'If you have spot removal I lose' much more than any Rafiq.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My sig broke.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
No, unsummon is bad magic. And if Bant gets to a point where they can hard cast Iona, we're in top deck mode and have probably already lost.
________________STANDARD________________
UBW Soorani Esper Control UBW
UBW Nicholas Spagnolo's Drownyard Control UBW
___________________EDH___________________
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
W Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker W
I know the logic about why it's bad. "You lose a card and they still have their threat yada yada yada"
However Bant Charm lets them keep their threat, although it's at the bottom of their deck. Unsummon also lets us save our own creatures, too.
Lotus Cobra does absolutely nothing for Bant. Every example shown where Cobra is "awesome" is an example of a perfect hand. Here in the real world, I'll use Noble/ Birds to get a good T2 threat out and not have to:
a) worry about what to replace with Cobra
b) dish out $120 for a playset of them
I dunno, it sells itself.
On the topic of Bant Charm. It's needed. Trust me. Nothing can do what it does, like it does. And if you're running the proper manabase, it's not difficult to come by :symw::symu::symg:. Hell, if it was hard to come by, why run Jenara, Rhox War Monk, Rafiq, or Finest Hour? I don't see it as being a burden, but I can see myself going -2 Charm +2 Vines, just for testing purposes if nothing else.
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck
If you are to run a bounce, at least, run Into the Roil.
It costs more, but you draw a card and it targets most permanents.
For the rest, right now, I just got CRUSHED by a token deck (this thing still exists?) and I feel really angry about it. Emeria Angel is such a *****... really... chump block forever... and ever... and ever... oh... a fetchland? That's more blockers...
I tried to path her, just gives him enough mana to cast Conqueror's Pledge. Seriously, I prefer facing Baneslayer than this ****... At least, I can outrace baneslayer with a Monk. Against tokens... if you don't draw the sledge or finest hour quite fast... it's over (guess what, I didn't).
I know it's just two games in a row... but it was such a beat... still hurts...
Bant Charm wants to give you a hug, but you left him at home in your box of cards.
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck
This is part of why Infiltrator is still relevant. And Bant Charm, for that matter. Also, what were you doing not keeping mana up for Negate if he was approaching 5 mana? I'd forgive you if you didn't have one or forgot about Pledge, but otherwise it wasn't a good plan.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Plains
3 Forest
3 Island
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Meddling Mage (Removal Lure)
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Emeria Angel
3 Jhessian Infiltrator
3 Negate
3 Essence Scatter
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Path to Exile
3 Cosi's Trickster
4 Cobra Trap
3 Baloth Cage Trap
1 Negate
1 Essence Scatter
3 Summoning Trap
Unexpected Cards:
Meddling Mage: Who would think that someone would run this main board. It is one of those cards that draws removal like a ***** (see shards image) and can be one of those cards that people just hate to see played.
Ethersworn Canonist: Really unexpected because it is usually a sideboard card against aggro or combo. Well if anyone hasn't noticed it yet then they haven't seen the new aggro metagame in most areas and with the new card known as Lotus Cobra that will be bringing what seems to be prophesized as REDICUCOMBOS to magic meta everywhere.
Vines of Vastwood: Well its a mediocre common that will probably be used mostly in monogreen deck that can utilize the two green mana early on to protect and pump their early creatures. In this deck its more of a "Hey Lets name a win-con with Meddling Mage and watch you waste removal on a card that will just sit there laughing at you"
Emeria Angel: I believed that someone on this page has really had a bad experience with this... what did he call it Oh Yeah thats right. Hopefully she should be easily able to finish the game with a fetch or two and just makes itself better because the curve is so low that you can stockpile lands until you drop the angel and make her a two for one.
Old School Like the Old school
:evillol:Thanks to .toRRent for the awesome Avi and Piet for the Banner:evillol:
Just realized it can also bounce Quests that are about to activate.
You've got a point, but his inclusion of Oran-Rief in Bant is a solid idea. Late game that card pumps our Rafiqs out of Bolt range.
That's actually quite an interesting idea. I'm loath to run CIPTs in general, but Oran-Rief has a very solid upside. I might test this.
I still see an issue with the cost of it. Yeah, its easy to pop out the creatures, it was just alot harder to have :symw::symu::symg: for the Monk / Rafiq / ect. AND an additional :symw::symu::symg: for the Bant. As the game draws out I dont see it being much of an issue, but racing those first 4 or 5 turns, I wish I would of had Paths or Vines to help out there instead of Charms I couldnt cast while being as aggresive as I felt I needed to be.
Oh, with 4 Negate and 3- 4 Vines, I just run 2-3. That way it's not a problem early game.
4x River Boa
4x Rafiq of the Many
4x Rhox War Monk
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Jenara, Asura of War
Planeswalkers:
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Noncreature Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Negate
3x Vines of Vastwood
3x Spell Pierce
2x Behemoth Sledge
4x Seaside Citadel
4x Sunpetal Grove
6x Forest
5x Island
3x Plains
4x Great Sable Stag
3x Flashfreeze
3x Celestial Purge
3x Pithing Needle
2x Mark of Asylum
How could I fit Oran-Rief into this deck? I think 2 copies would be ideal but I'm not sure how to tweak my mana base to include them. Suggestions?
Bant charm still feels like a dead card in an opening hand to me though. Unless there is something supremely pressing on the field that I need to get rid of with it, it just sits in my hand until turn 5-6 when I use it get rid of a win-con creature or pesky blocker.
Just about the only time I was glad to draw them tonight was vs a Luminarch ascension Deck that sided in Pithing needle targeting my Pridemages. I had to use the bant charm to pop the needle so I could sac my pridemage to clear out the ascension. (I sided in the Bants because during game 1 the guy was trying to get & remember pridemage's name, dead giveaway for needles incoming)
I think the countering part of bant charm is very rarely used, but the option of creature removal that bypasses indestructible or artifact hate is always welcome. I'm keeping mine in the SB for the moment in favor of more Vines/negates, but I can see them sticking around in the MD as a 2-of. I was quite happy with vines as a "save my beater" card though. It is probably just how new the set is, but people still seem surprised when I leave just G open, and am able to counter some removal.
"Rule Number 1 of magic. Bolt the birds." ~Quelian
Can I interest you in a Trade?
That was silly of him; he could have just said 'that exalted dude that sacs to kill artifacts and enchantments' for the Needle. It's legit.
Yes, it is a very significant issue (and frankly, I'd stay away from Citadel altogether if I were you). But Oran-Rief has a big, big upside, so I think it's at least worth a try.
I'm running 22 lands. I might get rid of 2 spells to add in two Oran Riefs. All you people who run 24 lands just need to switch out 2 CIPT lands for these.
"Rule Number 1 of magic. Bolt the birds." ~Quelian
Can I interest you in a Trade?
I agree with you here viper, this seems like a hard card to rule in or out without testing. As soon as I can get some in, I'll let ya know.
4x Ponder
4x Noble Heirarch
4x Vines of the Vastwood
4x Path to Exile
4x Rhox War Monk
4x Lorescale Coatl
4x Nulltread Gargantuan
4x Bant Charm
3x Garruck Wildspeaker
3x Sleep
Something along those lines. I dunno, just the whole exalted/ one attacker basically says to me "if you have spot removal, I lose the game" I played two or three of those bant exalted decks at regionals this summer and beat them all very easily, playing RB Demigod. Just seems a bit fragile unless you want to use some of the creature slots to play counter magic to protect your dudes. VotVW works pretty well for that, I guess, but it still seems fragile. And the idea of a 5/6 on turn 2 is really exciting...!
BloodQuake
Grixis Zombies
Esper Mill
Blue Green Gro
Valakut Control
EDH:
Oros the Avenger
That's why we devote so many slots to protecting the champs!
Lorescale is pretty meh outside of a deck with lots of draw. I'd rather have a Flipper/Jenara any day. Nulltread is just too risky. Yes, it's a 5/6. But this guy says 'If you have spot removal I lose' much more than any Rafiq.