I know it's not an extremely common deck and therefore doesn't have a fantastic record yet, but I think it might deserve a spot in the competitive (or at least developing competitive) decks.
It seems like it's pretty similar to the Open the Vaults deck (which IS in the competitive section), except it's a bit faster and not quite as resilient.
Are there any thoughts on this deck? Is it competitive at all? Is there a way to make it more competitive? How are its match-ups against Jund, UW control, RDW, Mythic, etc?
In my testing, the current metagame beats it mostly. Jund one pulse normally equals gg, control they can counter what is important, get that OtV and you are done. RDW is too fast, mythic overpowers you too early
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Current Decks
Standard: RB Shadow of Ad Nauseum UR It's a Trap UBW Time Sieve
I know it's not an extremely common deck and therefore doesn't have a fantastic record yet, but I think it might deserve a spot in the competitive (or at least developing competitive) decks.
It seems like it's pretty similar to the Open the Vaults deck (which IS in the competitive section), except it's a bit faster and not quite as resilient.
Are there any thoughts on this deck? Is it competitive at all? Is there a way to make it more competitive? How are its match-ups against Jund, UW control, RDW, Mythic, etc?
Time Sieve nets you an extra turn, but there's no efficient method in Standard to recur artifacts every turn to abuse Time Sieve.
It's one of those cards that are either unplayable or broken, very rarely balanced in power with the meta.
Edit: You could probaby add it to an OtV deck, but once you resolve OtV it should be nigh-near gg anyways.
In my testing, the current metagame beats it mostly. Jund one pulse normally equals gg, control they can counter what is important, get that OtV and you are done. RDW is too fast, mythic overpowers you too early
Do you have any idea of what you are talking?Jund was nearly a bye pre-rotation for Time Sieve and the deck has more way to interact with the combo then now.
RDW was probably one of Time Sieve worst match-up pre-rotation. but the deck also ran Deathmark and Infest SB to deal with our pro-red bear.Now we have Bear-claw AND the pro-red artifact bear in our sideboard and they got virtualy no way to deal with them.Also since they aren't playing black anymore they dont have access to Tought Hemmorage.
I'm pretty sure that RDW in his current form doesn't stand a chance post-board agains't Time Sieve.
Quote from Soviet Panda »
Time Sieve nets you an extra turn, but there's no efficient method in Standard to recur artifacts every turn to abuse Time Sieve.
It's one of those cards that are either unplayable or broken, very rarely balanced in power with the meta.
Edit: You could probaby add it to an OtV deck, but once you resolve OtV it should be nigh-near gg anyways.
You my friend, have no idea how Time Sieve deck work.The deck already run 4 Open the Vault.With 4 Howling Mine, a couple of Jace, Time Warp and about 7 Egg you have more then enought way to get extra turn.
On topic : I think the major reason that Time Sieve died post-rotation was the lost of one of our egg.With Rise of the Eldrazi that will bring an extra egg i'm pretty sure that Time Sieve can be a top tier deck considering that he lost almost all his bad match-up post-rotation (Fairy, Merfolk) and that one of his best match-up is probably the most popular deck ever.
Time Sieve no longer really stands much of a chance competitively. It's just too slow and too vulnerable to stuff like Maelstrom Pulse. Open the Vaults is better.
Time Sieve no longer really stands much of a chance competitively. It's just too slow and too vulnerable to stuff like Maelstrom Pulse. Open the Vaults is better.
Too slow?You do understand that the deck is considerably faster then Open the vaults right?Time Sieve can easly pull out a win on 6 turn with protection (in the form of Negate or Silence), unlike Otv that can... gain life with the Angel?
Maelstrom Pulse isn't as bad as people think.If you're not stupid, at best the card is a Stone Rain... that's probably the best that Jund can do against you... stone rain...
Do you have any idea of what you are talking?Jund was nearly a bye pre-rotation for Time Sieve and the deck has more way to interact with the combo then now.
RDW was probably one of Time Sieve worst match-up pre-rotation. but the deck also ran Deathmark and Infest SB to deal with our pro-red bear.Now we have Bear-claw AND the pro-red artifact bear in our sideboard and they got virtualy no way to deal with them.Also since they aren't playing black anymore they dont have access to Tought Hemmorage.
I'm pretty sure that RDW in his current form doesn't stand a chance post-board agains't Time Sieve.
You my friend, have no idea how Time Sieve deck work.The deck already run 4 Open the Vault.With 4 Howling Mine, a couple of Jace, Time Warp and about 7 Egg you have more then enought way to get extra turn.
On topic : I think the major reason that Time Sieve died post-rotation was the lost of one of our egg.With Rise of the Eldrazi that will bring an extra egg i'm pretty sure that Time Sieve can be a top tier deck considering that he lost almost all his bad match-up post-rotation (Fairy, Merfolk) and that one of his best match-up is probably the most popular deck ever.
Show me this pre-rotation Time Sieve *STANDARD* list that you're talking about...
Time Sieve was terrible pre ZDK, and still terrible now. It's only place is in an OtV deck where the only time you can use it is when you already have a superior and probably game-winning board position, which you would most likely give up by activating sieve.
Too slow?You do understand that the deck is considerably faster then Open the vaults right?Time Sieve can easly pull out a win on 6 turn with protection (in the form of Negate or Silence), unlike Otv that can... gain life with the Angel?
Maelstrom Pulse isn't as bad as people think.If you're not stupid, at best the card is a Stone Rain... that's probably the best that Jund can do against you... stone rain...
You do know that every deck barring control can win by turn 6 and most have t3 god hands. We're in an extremely fast meta...
Show me this pre-rotation Time Sieve *STANDARD* list that you're talking about...
Time Sieve was terrible pre ZDK, and still terrible now. It's only place is in an OtV deck where the only time you can use it is when you already have a superior and probably game-winning board position, which you would most likely give up by activating sieve.
Something like this... Losing Pollen Lullaby was bad though...that card is a near-Time Walk, it was so good alongside Cryptic. I might need to pick apart my Extended version to make it Standard again.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Too slow?You do understand that the deck is considerably faster then Open the vaults right?Time Sieve can easly pull out a win on 6 turn with protection (in the form of Negate or Silence), unlike Otv that can... gain life with the Angel?
Maelstrom Pulse isn't as bad as people think.If you're not stupid, at best the card is a Stone Rain... that's probably the best that Jund can do against you... stone rain...
Well, it's more like turn 6 that you combo out. Time Sieve actually takes a really long time to actually win the game. I've seen one draw through nearly its entire library, a couple cards at a time before it actually won the game. I doubt it'll be hugely popular even if it comes back, since it's pretty annoying to sit there and wait for half an hour to see if they can combo out or deck themselves. Dragonstorm was way better. It was still uninteractive, for the most part, but it just went BANG!!! You're dead. It didn't go through an elaborate process just to kill you.
Clearly you guys forgot that pre-rotation, there was Cryptic Command.
Cryptic Command was just another tool that can be substitued with ease, like Pollen Lullaby.
Well, it's more like turn 6 that you combo out. Time Sieve actually takes a really long time to actually win the game. I've seen one draw through nearly its entire library, a couple cards at a time before it actually won the game. I doubt it'll be hugely popular even if it comes back, since it's pretty annoying to sit there and wait for half an hour to see if they can combo out or deck themselves. Dragonstorm was way better. It was still uninteractive, for the most part, but it just went BANG!!! You're dead. It didn't go through an elaborate process just to kill you.
Well by win on turn 6 i meant you dont got to play ever again... you know what i mean... smartass
Quote from Sad Panda »
You do know that every deck barring control can win by turn 6 and most have t3 god hands. We're in an extremely fast meta...
Yes but Time Sieve doesn't need a god hand to win turn 6.With the amount of cantrip/Mine effect/Time Warp you play winning turn 6 is easy to do.
Quote from Sad Panda »
Time Sieve was terrible pre ZDK, and still terrible now. It's only place is in an OtV deck where the only time you can use it is when you already have a superior and probably game-winning board position, which you would most likely give up by activating sieve.
Time Sieve was a terrible choice pre-ZDK because of the presence of fairy and merfolk in the meta that where just obliterating you.Now the meta is full of what Time Sieve prey on, slow mid-range deck and control deck without a good clock.
Quote from Sad Panda »
Show me this pre-rotation Time Sieve *STANDARD* list that you're talking about...
Kirdkitty- I don't think you can convince anyone that it was/is/can be a good deck. I love the deck and have high hopes for the future. If you walk into a room full of Jund, it's a pretty solid bet. It just rolls over to a lot of other decks right now.
I won't talk about RoE here, but I can tell you that goofy.decs and EDH are going to have a field day in the next 3-4 weeks.
These (EDIT: The first two) two lists are what I've been using recently. I've taken the first of them to the Top 8 of the last few FNM's I've gone to (I haven't used the second yet) so I know it's not horrible (though my FNM isn't exactly what I'd call competitive). I've also been testing a version that uses cards from RoE, and it almost feels like the old lists that had Lor/Sha. This list also won a grinder at GP Brussels.
Right now it can do well if it isn't expected, but I'm going to wait for RoE when it should become much better.
Cryptic Command was just another tool that can be substitued with ease, like Pollen Lullaby.
No. Don't even try to joke that Cryptic Command could be substituted. I took a break when M10 released, so I was unawares of this short interim where TS was deemed viable by the majority. I don't care. TS was not viable in a meta full of Lorwyn powered faeries and 5CC aggro/control.
Well by win on turn 6 i meant you dont got to play ever again... you know what i mean... smartass
Yes but Time Sieve doesn't need a god hand to win turn 6.With the amount of cantrip/Mine effect/Time Warp you play winning turn 6 is easy to do.
Time Sieve was a terrible choice pre-ZDK because of the presence of fairy and merfolk in the meta that where just obliterating you.Now the meta is full of what Time Sieve prey on, slow mid-range deck and control deck without a good clock.
I said you needed a god turn to win on turn 3 with most decks in the meta. Every single deck in the current meta wins by turn 6 with the exception of control decks, or UW tap out. Most matches end by turn 7 or 8.[/quote]
That deck list is.... quite awful against 5CC as long as the player had seen the deck before and knew what to counter and pulse. Post ZDK sure, the Lorwyn archetypes are gone, but they're replaced by faster and more efficient aggro. And to avoid discussing RoE... I'll just say annihilate > time sieve.
These two lists are what I've been using recently. I've taken the first of them to the Top 8 of the last few FNM's I've gone to (I haven't used the second yet) so I know it's not horrible (though my FNM isn't exactly what I'd call competitive). I've also been testing a version that uses cards from RoE, and it almost feels like the old lists that had Lor/Sha. This list also won a grinder at GP Brussels.
Right now it can do well if it isn't expected, but I'm going to wait for RoE when it should become much better.
We can't see your deck lists FYI. And I figured you'd show up here to argue the merits of Time Sieve.
We can't see your deck lists FYI. And I figured you'd show up here to argue the merits of Time Sieve.
Curses. But you're right about my being here to say it's good, though :p. I tried to post it using decklists, but there's some newfangled software that won't let me post anything in Standard Main with Deck tags in it, so I tried a link to testing grounds. I should've known that wouldn't work, any ideas how to link to them?
Anyway, from my experience, Time Sieve usually beats Jund, UW Control (and any other control), White Weenie, Allies, Vamps (sans obscene amounts of discard) Open the Vaults, and Elves. Vamps (when they hit a lot of discard), Boss Naya, and RDW are more difficult but can definitely still be beaten. Anything else I haven't played against, but I can't imaging they're too bad and there isn't really anything Time Sieve has an auto-scoop to. The only thing that pretty much just ends the game is a ridiculously fast start, an Iona (on White), and lots of discard. Even Manabarbs doesn't kiil Time Sieve (go go non-land manaproducers!).
I don't want to talk about it here too much, but I'm very excited for RoE and how it helps this deck.
Curses. But you're right about my being here to say it's good, though :p. I tried to post it using decklists, but there's some newfangled software that won't let me post anything in Standard Main with Deck tags in it, so I tried a link to testing grounds. I should've known that wouldn't work, any ideas how to link to them?
Anyway, from my experience, Time Sieve usually beats Jund, UW Control (and any other control), White Weenie, Allies, Vamps (sans obscene amounts of discard) Open the Vaults, and Elves. Vamps (when they hit a lot of discard), Boss Naya, and RDW are more difficult but can definitely still be beaten. Anything else I haven't played against, but I can't imaging they're too bad and there isn't really anything Time Sieve has an auto-scoop to. The only thing that pretty much just ends the game is a ridiculously fast start, an Iona (on White), and lots of discard. Even Manabarbs doesn't kiil Time Sieve (go go non-land manaproducers!).
I don't want to talk about it here too much, but I'm very excited for RoE and how it helps this deck.
So if this is a valid analysis of the deck, why didn't it do well at PT San Diego? I mean hell, we saw an Open the Vaults deck make it pretty far, and back then Boss Naya wasn't really out there and as such wouldn't be considered as a fully formed threat. More so, the meta was obviously going to be heavy Jund... So why didn't a single Time Sieve deck show up, while all of those other decks did?
No. Don't even try to joke that Cryptic Command could be substituted. I took a break when M10 released, so I was unawares of this short interim where TS was deemed viable by the majority. I don't care. TS was not viable in a meta full of Lorwyn powered faeries and 5CC aggro/control.
Actually, most lists didn't even play four. It really was not necessary and the loss of CC doesn't really hurt the deck at all.
So if this is a valid analysis of the deck, why didn't it do well at PT San Diego? I mean hell, we saw an Open the Vaults deck make it pretty far, and back then Boss Naya wasn't really out there and as such wouldn't be considered as a fully formed threat. More so, the meta was obviously going to be heavy Jund... So why didn't a single Time Sieve deck show up, while all of those other decks did?
As for the lists they were playing, they are definitely not really close to what I've been piloting. Even though they are Pros and I am not, many of the choices seem pretty bad and frankly I would take a very different build to a PT.
Anyway, as I said, this is only my experience from FNMs, which is to say, experience against decks that are not optimized nor played at a Pro or even (for some) Grinder level. It definitely does well there, even if not at a PT.
most of the people in this thread dont seem to know anything about time sieve. it cant beat control? thats rediculous. it was made to beat 5cc.
cryptic command? why do you need that? its a fog most of the time. granted, having a md counter/bounce/tap effect was greatand it helped tezzeret win the game, but its far far far away from a card that would break this deck.
there are 2 reasons time sieve isnt played much now. one is the loss of elsewhere flask. nothing replces it. the new eldrazi cantrip may, or it may not.
the second reason, is a lack of control decks. if the control player has no clock, it doesnt matter how many counters he plays. you will eventually make them tap out, take an extra turn and win.
time sieve should not be played right now. if the format slows down in roe or more control variants become viable, then time sieve will become viable.
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It seems like it's pretty similar to the Open the Vaults deck (which IS in the competitive section), except it's a bit faster and not quite as resilient.
Are there any thoughts on this deck? Is it competitive at all? Is there a way to make it more competitive? How are its match-ups against Jund, UW control, RDW, Mythic, etc?
Standard:
RB Shadow of Ad Nauseum
UR It's a Trap
UBW Time Sieve
EDH:
GBNath of the Gilt-Leaf
Time Sieve nets you an extra turn, but there's no efficient method in Standard to recur artifacts every turn to abuse Time Sieve.
It's one of those cards that are either unplayable or broken, very rarely balanced in power with the meta.
Edit: You could probaby add it to an OtV deck, but once you resolve OtV it should be nigh-near gg anyways.
Do you have any idea of what you are talking?Jund was nearly a bye pre-rotation for Time Sieve and the deck has more way to interact with the combo then now.
RDW was probably one of Time Sieve worst match-up pre-rotation. but the deck also ran Deathmark and Infest SB to deal with our pro-red bear.Now we have Bear-claw AND the pro-red artifact bear in our sideboard and they got virtualy no way to deal with them.Also since they aren't playing black anymore they dont have access to Tought Hemmorage.
I'm pretty sure that RDW in his current form doesn't stand a chance post-board agains't Time Sieve.
You my friend, have no idea how Time Sieve deck work.The deck already run 4 Open the Vault.With 4 Howling Mine, a couple of Jace, Time Warp and about 7 Egg you have more then enought way to get extra turn.
On topic : I think the major reason that Time Sieve died post-rotation was the lost of one of our egg.With Rise of the Eldrazi that will bring an extra egg i'm pretty sure that Time Sieve can be a top tier deck considering that he lost almost all his bad match-up post-rotation (Fairy, Merfolk) and that one of his best match-up is probably the most popular deck ever.
Romeo, O Romeo, can i haz romeo?
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Too slow?You do understand that the deck is considerably faster then Open the vaults right?Time Sieve can easly pull out a win on 6 turn with protection (in the form of Negate or Silence), unlike Otv that can... gain life with the Angel?
Maelstrom Pulse isn't as bad as people think.If you're not stupid, at best the card is a Stone Rain... that's probably the best that Jund can do against you... stone rain...
Romeo, O Romeo, can i haz romeo?
Show me this pre-rotation Time Sieve *STANDARD* list that you're talking about...
Time Sieve was terrible pre ZDK, and still terrible now. It's only place is in an OtV deck where the only time you can use it is when you already have a superior and probably game-winning board position, which you would most likely give up by activating sieve.
You do know that every deck barring control can win by turn 6 and most have t3 god hands. We're in an extremely fast meta...
Something like this... Losing Pollen Lullaby was bad though...that card is a near-Time Walk, it was so good alongside Cryptic. I might need to pick apart my Extended version to make it Standard again.
That's what we have the new card for.
That's how this entire discussion got started. We also have this, which may or may not be useful.
Useful as both a 2/2 body and as a good sac target for Time Sieve. I guess I'll be dusting it off the deck for standard once more.
Well, it's more like turn 6 that you combo out. Time Sieve actually takes a really long time to actually win the game. I've seen one draw through nearly its entire library, a couple cards at a time before it actually won the game. I doubt it'll be hugely popular even if it comes back, since it's pretty annoying to sit there and wait for half an hour to see if they can combo out or deck themselves. Dragonstorm was way better. It was still uninteractive, for the most part, but it just went BANG!!! You're dead. It didn't go through an elaborate process just to kill you.
towards the end of rotation most lists cut cryptic, or ran just one to tap guys down...which one sleep does just as well.
Extendo
Read my Blog!
Cryptic Command was just another tool that can be substitued with ease, like Pollen Lullaby.
Well by win on turn 6 i meant you dont got to play ever again... you know what i mean... smartass
Yes but Time Sieve doesn't need a god hand to win turn 6.With the amount of cantrip/Mine effect/Time Warp you play winning turn 6 is easy to do.
Time Sieve was a terrible choice pre-ZDK because of the presence of fairy and merfolk in the meta that where just obliterating you.Now the meta is full of what Time Sieve prey on, slow mid-range deck and control deck without a good clock.
Benjammn arlready answered this one for me.
Romeo, O Romeo, can i haz romeo?
I won't talk about RoE here, but I can tell you that goofy.decs and EDH are going to have a field day in the next 3-4 weeks.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Right now it can do well if it isn't expected, but I'm going to wait for RoE when it should become much better.
No. Don't even try to joke that Cryptic Command could be substituted. I took a break when M10 released, so I was unawares of this short interim where TS was deemed viable by the majority. I don't care. TS was not viable in a meta full of Lorwyn powered faeries and 5CC aggro/control.
I said you needed a god turn to win on turn 3 with most decks in the meta. Every single deck in the current meta wins by turn 6 with the exception of control decks, or UW tap out. Most matches end by turn 7 or 8.[/quote]
That deck list is.... quite awful against 5CC as long as the player had seen the deck before and knew what to counter and pulse. Post ZDK sure, the Lorwyn archetypes are gone, but they're replaced by faster and more efficient aggro. And to avoid discussing RoE... I'll just say annihilate > time sieve.
We can't see your deck lists FYI. And I figured you'd show up here to argue the merits of Time Sieve.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Curses. But you're right about my being here to say it's good, though :p. I tried to post it using decklists, but there's some newfangled software that won't let me post anything in Standard Main with Deck tags in it, so I tried a link to testing grounds. I should've known that wouldn't work, any ideas how to link to them?
Anyway, from my experience, Time Sieve usually beats Jund, UW Control (and any other control), White Weenie, Allies, Vamps (sans obscene amounts of discard) Open the Vaults, and Elves. Vamps (when they hit a lot of discard), Boss Naya, and RDW are more difficult but can definitely still be beaten. Anything else I haven't played against, but I can't imaging they're too bad and there isn't really anything Time Sieve has an auto-scoop to. The only thing that pretty much just ends the game is a ridiculously fast start, an Iona (on White), and lots of discard. Even Manabarbs doesn't kiil Time Sieve (go go non-land manaproducers!).
I don't want to talk about it here too much, but I'm very excited for RoE and how it helps this deck.
No seriously, check it out: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptsd10/topstddecks
The decks with 18-21 points range from everything really, GW, GWB, Valukut, Grixis, Open the Vaults, etc. Where's this Time Sieve deck?
Actually, most lists didn't even play four. It really was not necessary and the loss of CC doesn't really hurt the deck at all.
As for the lists they were playing, they are definitely not really close to what I've been piloting. Even though they are Pros and I am not, many of the choices seem pretty bad and frankly I would take a very different build to a PT.
Anyway, as I said, this is only my experience from FNMs, which is to say, experience against decks that are not optimized nor played at a Pro or even (for some) Grinder level. It definitely does well there, even if not at a PT.
Katsuhiro Mori (search "Mori") got 18 points with Time Sieve (obviously in the Standard portion), but his list isn't there.
most TS decks won because of Cryptic, i know of people who wouldnt even of piloted them if cryptic wasnt around
1st place GPT Seattle
1st place GPT Anaheim
Unfortunately, this deck can just fail and not do anything.
cryptic command? why do you need that? its a fog most of the time. granted, having a md counter/bounce/tap effect was greatand it helped tezzeret win the game, but its far far far away from a card that would break this deck.
there are 2 reasons time sieve isnt played much now. one is the loss of elsewhere flask. nothing replces it. the new eldrazi cantrip may, or it may not.
the second reason, is a lack of control decks. if the control player has no clock, it doesnt matter how many counters he plays. you will eventually make them tap out, take an extra turn and win.
time sieve should not be played right now. if the format slows down in roe or more control variants become viable, then time sieve will become viable.