I have actually made my own jund (which beat the tournament winning jund in its prime, wish i had the money to enter tournaments), my own naya (which is the original idea, big creatures), my own blue white (which im finding is better than the tournament white blue), my own red deck (turned out to be very similar to rdw when i looked it up but im missing some cards in mine but ive had the howling mines idea for a while now. seemed obvious to me), my own bant (fast exalted creatures each turn is hard to keep up with and really strong in my opinion), and...well you get the point. The problem is that i never enter tournaments other than pre-releases, I just dont have the money. I hate seeing net deckers and the same decks when I always sit there n make my own decks with my strategies. I consider my deck making an art thing for me now because everyother day I get a new idea and I go to work in making the deck then tuning it. I think more players should beat the temptation and do the same.
Thats funny i have a naya controlish build as well that uses power 5 or greater creatures and spearbreaker with wrath effects. It was a deck that took almost 2 years to evolve. its cascade into ramp with no bbe.
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To live for results would be to sentence myself to continuous frustration. My only reward in my actions and not from them. -Hugh Prather
If you want Sevile I can pm you my build. It doesn't focus on the power 5 thing but you may be able to get some ideas out of it.
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Currently Playing:
Standard: GWBSomething dont really care any more.
Legacy: GWBNic Fit WBDeadguy Ale
EDH: GWB Karador, Ghost Chieftain RUGRiku, of the Twin Reflections UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
i like to think im a pro in deck building i do it all day long.
I built Jund before it was jund, with the same idea as the current jund had, i know for a fact i was one of the firt in my area to be playing such a list, and i couldnt find anything online able it since people were still playing the lorwyn decks.
i then splashed blue for cruel ult. but after the easy landfixing rotated i gave up on the deck because mancer sucked, lost finks and ramgang, and i couldnt splash for cruel anymore. then a month later...DUN DUN DUNNNNN jund as we know it takes control of magic.
Seconded... The field has narrowed to such an extent that there has to be gaps to drive a rogue deck through.
If you got a smaller card pool to work with, you get the supposed "Better Quality" cards but that also means you get LESS cards to work with.
Also I do try making my own competitive decks, no one gives a darn though. Bah, it's "Jace THIS! Gideon THAT!" is all you really hear about the competitive environment for awhile now. If you want to run white your expected to run Gideon. Same with blue, you play that color you better be running Jace.
Back in my day, Squirrel Opposition was serious business in the pro tour.
I like to build my own decks, but I'll admit that I do look over other people's lists for suggestions. I just prefer to do my own thing; its more fun to pilot a deck full of cards that I love rather than a deck that someone else built.
At the same time, I don't see the need to rag on the netdeckers; some people just cannot build decks, and would rather use someone else's, and there is nothing wrong with that. Besides, like someone said above, some decks just sort of build themselves.
My original post and the intent of this thread isn't to badmouth net deckers. Like I said, I've done it before and will probably do it again. I was just more curious as to why it seems so many people are more likely to do it than try their own creations. I just find it hard to believe that even with the smaller pool of cards available now in standard, that absolutely every card has been tested with every combination of cards in standard and that only a handful of decks can be considered viable.
I don't think its so much a matter of viability...its what is the best option available. Yes it's possible that you can make a "metagame" deck that's quite good, but is said deck going to be the best deck in a vacuum? Probably not. If you're looking to win a PTQ, unless you're REALLY good at meta evaluation, you're going to want to go for raw power. Now what are the odds that your homebrew has more raw power then what some pro came up with? Not high.
But even so there's still plenty of places where homebrews have a place. You don't necessarily need to be armed to the teeth to place at an FNM, so that's a great place to have fun with something wacky. Sometimes you aren't desperately looking for a top 8, then you might want to consider throwing curveballs. Then there's times like now, when a new set shifts the meta, where there's new stuff to be made, but said decks haven't gotten popular yet. I personally am working on 2 different deck ideas based on M11 cards, and the future is looking bright for them.
I design my own stuff. "Competitive" to me means, realistically, that it makes a good show at the card shop. I could pick up a tier one deck and beat everyone's brains in because I've been playing for 15 years, but there is no challenge in that. I think netdecking is foolish unless you're playing qualifiers, tournaments with significant prizes and such.
Most of my designs crash and burn, but I win more that I lose, and I'm happy with that. If I were getting into a seriously competitive scene, deck building would take a back seat to the metagame- the metagame calls are what wins the money.
I net deck almost all of my decks because i don't really enjoy building a deck, i just love to play them. I have nearly all of the competitive decks and I play the crap out of them. I win most of the time (a lot of it is because of the deck) but much of it is also my own doing. Just depends on what you value in magic i guess.
new players as they show up maybe twice with some budget deck they've spent the week designing and testing only to be beaten into oblivion by expensive decks they cannot hope to obtain and I think this is a tragedy.
If you really get excited about home-brew's when SoM comes around create a block constructed deck (online most likely). It's a quiet format when it first starts as there is next to nobody talking about it.
I did this when Zen broke out and created about 6 archetypes to test against each other. I learned a lot. First my U/W build wasn't competitive. I had rulled it out even though it was one of the top decks, and I missed Valakut Ramp. This is the advantage pro's who work in teams have because they have 3-6 guys bringing decks to the table. My U/W might have blown chunks because I had too much counter and not enough bounce, but someone else might not have and his deck might be better.
I might start a blog to document my SoM trials. Anyone who plays Block Constructed competitively, feel free to PM me if you want to help test.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
In Standard I rarely build anything from scratch. I will modify to improve them if I see the opportunity, but there really are only so many Tier level decks that can exist in any given meta and people WILL find them faster than I am likely to.
Where I really enjoy deck building is EDH. EDH is not simply about the fastest most efficient deck so the constraints are much looser and I can build a deck I will enjoy playing rather than focusing on winning. My Omnath deck is so far my favorite. Hard casting Eldrazi titans is just too fun.
Well, the problem is you build something in a specific color scheme and you soon notice a common 'archetype' that shares the same colors and basic skeleton of beaters and synergies, and soon after that you ultimately realize that you are playing a jankier variant of a tier 1 or 2 deck, or even a tier 2.5-3 deck..
The way I see things, in a casual setting, building an effective deck from scratch is quite rewarding and fun, even at FNM level. But once you hit any level of competitiveness, one may only come to terms with the fact that there are dedicated players out there that play Magic for a living; it's their damn livelihood. They play test night and day. They've trenched themselves down going through play-out after play-out to see what works and what doesn't.
You know, an average player who dedicates a few hours a week to play "competitively" and buckles down only when a PTQ or Nats comes around really can't compete in making and pioneering a new, strong and effective archetype. There are so many variables involved and so much to be aware of.
If I want creativity and fun, I go to EDH. If I want to play Standard, I pick an archetype and modify it as I see fit. That's the way it is, there is very little room for creativity in Standard. Some new deck will always surface with some crazy ideas but soon fade out once the top tier of decks adjust themselves to the new threat.
I never have the money to build Teir 1 decks; so quite often I'll take a janky deck and try and refine it untill it is good. Lots of times I'll miss a set or two and come back to people playing decks with similar ideas to decks I was building with newer, better cards. In Lorwyn/Alara I tried every concievable way to cheat out Progenitus.
Before even Worldwake came out I was one of the people here running Gigantiform.
I justed off my R/G Goblins/Tokens deck and gave some headaches to even some people playing the newer Eldrazi Spawn variants.
Maybe when I become wealthy, I'll be able to throw together any deck I want, but in the meantime, Magic for me is taking a crazy idea and running with it as far as I can.
I think Netdecking has taken a lot of the fun out of magic. It used to be a combination of creative building skills and then also playing skill. But for most, it is now almost all about the latter.
That being said, no one is doing anything wrong by netdecking. It has to be done. It is an inevitable consequence of the rules and the reality. Lots of individula players might have "pro" level potential. But they simply don't have the time (usually b/c of $$$). So really, there is no way they are going to compete with the decks pros build. It is as simple as that - you may think you are as good as a pro - and you may be. Potentially. But if you aren't grinding out the hours with other players of that caliber, testing and testing decks in a scientific manner and recording results then you aren't competing with their decks.
Personally, I wish wizards could come up with some kind of format that made netdecking less viable. Not sure how though.
I've also been a competitive minded rogue builder. Many times, it's a flop that just sort of "hangs in there." I did have three decks do very well in their time, two of which actually ended up becoming popular decks when pro players noticed similar strategies that I did.
I think with the new core set, we will see a lot of new decks being built for awhile, and then people will stat to carbon copy things. Its just how American's do it.
People netdeck, because given a limited card pool, a select number of efficient, optimized decks are going to rise to the top.
If you aren't the kind of person that can innovate, and discover those decks, first, then you have two choices.
1. Netdeck
2. Not win most of the time
Magic is about fun, but people define fun differently. And your idea of fun isn't going to be allowed to hamper mine, just as much as you would like mine to not hamper your. You play your deck, I'll play mine, and I might let you have the tokens out of my prize packs.
I love how the question posed in the OP is going ignored and instead people are just claiming to have invented tier one decks before anyone else (including pros) thought to.
When after a long hiatus I started going at store tournaments regularly (Zendikar), I considered my card pool, read several threads in this forum, and decided to play vampires. Starting with a number of staples I decided the rest with common sense, bought needed rares, and then I improved and varied and refined: every week I tried new cards, not all of which successful. Then vampires ceased to be competitive, with no apparent remedy.
I started from a slightly fixed copy of another player's deck and drastically improved it in several stages, reaching almost the same level of refinement of my vampires and inducing other players to play their own slightly different take on turbofog in the process.
I also make experiments (current one: red-white defenders with Manabarbs), but most of them aren't very competitive and I don't have enough time to develop them.
I generally find posted lists a reference of proven or "mandatory" cards to counterbalance my taste for combos and overspecialization.
I don't purposely netdeck, but I usually start with a general shell of good cards and it tends to resemble a lot of the decks you see on the net. UW Control, isn't a netdeck, it's a proven archetype, and an archetype I enjoy playing.
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Standard:
GWBSomething dont really care any more.
Legacy:
GWBNic Fit
WBDeadguy Ale
EDH:
GWB Karador, Ghost Chieftain
RUGRiku, of the Twin Reflections
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
Artwork by Bornnover of Hakai Studios
That's what Magic is about, after all. A game of poker. With dragons.
Trade Thread http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8732945#post8732945
I built Jund before it was jund, with the same idea as the current jund had, i know for a fact i was one of the firt in my area to be playing such a list, and i couldnt find anything online able it since people were still playing the lorwyn decks.
ananthmancer,kitchen finks,ramgang,blightning,terminate,thrinax,broodmate,leech,pulse
i then splashed blue for cruel ult. but after the easy landfixing rotated i gave up on the deck because mancer sucked, lost finks and ramgang, and i couldnt splash for cruel anymore. then a month later...DUN DUN DUNNNNN jund as we know it takes control of magic.
Anyway, I would imagine lots of people come up with ideas and try them out. Would be the only way the top tier decks would start up.
Seconded... The field has narrowed to such an extent that there has to be gaps to drive a rogue deck through.
BUR Spirit of Crosis BUR
Modern
BW Despair BW
UWR ">Lightning Angel UWR
Commander
BUG Mimeoplasm - Commander BUG
If you got a smaller card pool to work with, you get the supposed "Better Quality" cards but that also means you get LESS cards to work with.
Also I do try making my own competitive decks, no one gives a darn though. Bah, it's "Jace THIS! Gideon THAT!" is all you really hear about the competitive environment for awhile now. If you want to run white your expected to run Gideon. Same with blue, you play that color you better be running Jace.
Back in my day, Squirrel Opposition was serious business in the pro tour.
UGExperiment KrajUG
At the same time, I don't see the need to rag on the netdeckers; some people just cannot build decks, and would rather use someone else's, and there is nothing wrong with that. Besides, like someone said above, some decks just sort of build themselves.
But even so there's still plenty of places where homebrews have a place. You don't necessarily need to be armed to the teeth to place at an FNM, so that's a great place to have fun with something wacky. Sometimes you aren't desperately looking for a top 8, then you might want to consider throwing curveballs. Then there's times like now, when a new set shifts the meta, where there's new stuff to be made, but said decks haven't gotten popular yet. I personally am working on 2 different deck ideas based on M11 cards, and the future is looking bright for them.
Most of my designs crash and burn, but I win more that I lose, and I'm happy with that. If I were getting into a seriously competitive scene, deck building would take a back seat to the metagame- the metagame calls are what wins the money.
:symu::symw: Control
:symr::symb: Aggro
Life Gain
I did this when Zen broke out and created about 6 archetypes to test against each other. I learned a lot. First my U/W build wasn't competitive. I had rulled it out even though it was one of the top decks, and I missed Valakut Ramp. This is the advantage pro's who work in teams have because they have 3-6 guys bringing decks to the table. My U/W might have blown chunks because I had too much counter and not enough bounce, but someone else might not have and his deck might be better.
I might start a blog to document my SoM trials. Anyone who plays Block Constructed competitively, feel free to PM me if you want to help test.
Where I really enjoy deck building is EDH. EDH is not simply about the fastest most efficient deck so the constraints are much looser and I can build a deck I will enjoy playing rather than focusing on winning. My Omnath deck is so far my favorite. Hard casting Eldrazi titans is just too fun.
I never have the money to build Teir 1 decks; so quite often I'll take a janky deck and try and refine it untill it is good. Lots of times I'll miss a set or two and come back to people playing decks with similar ideas to decks I was building with newer, better cards. In Lorwyn/Alara I tried every concievable way to cheat out Progenitus.
Before even Worldwake came out I was one of the people here running Gigantiform.
I justed off my R/G Goblins/Tokens deck and gave some headaches to even some people playing the newer Eldrazi Spawn variants.
Maybe when I become wealthy, I'll be able to throw together any deck I want, but in the meantime, Magic for me is taking a crazy idea and running with it as far as I can.
That being said, no one is doing anything wrong by netdecking. It has to be done. It is an inevitable consequence of the rules and the reality. Lots of individula players might have "pro" level potential. But they simply don't have the time (usually b/c of $$$). So really, there is no way they are going to compete with the decks pros build. It is as simple as that - you may think you are as good as a pro - and you may be. Potentially. But if you aren't grinding out the hours with other players of that caliber, testing and testing decks in a scientific manner and recording results then you aren't competing with their decks.
Personally, I wish wizards could come up with some kind of format that made netdecking less viable. Not sure how though.
Don't use red/bold text.
People netdeck, because given a limited card pool, a select number of efficient, optimized decks are going to rise to the top.
If you aren't the kind of person that can innovate, and discover those decks, first, then you have two choices.
1. Netdeck
2. Not win most of the time
Magic is about fun, but people define fun differently. And your idea of fun isn't going to be allowed to hamper mine, just as much as you would like mine to not hamper your. You play your deck, I'll play mine, and I might let you have the tokens out of my prize packs.
UGExperiment KrajUG
UGExperiment KrajUG