It's simply the best Leyline, people just need to learn how to break it - I've already learned how and reaping the rewards on MTGO.
Amongst other silly plays that are just amazingly wonderful - responding to your opponent's PW (or other annoying activated ability effect that can be used first turn) with an instant speed Needle.
Turning Kor Skywhatevertheyarecalled's into a removal + creature dodge. (And of course turning the same Kor into a white Faceless Butcher on crack paired with Journey)
Turning Kor Hookmaster into a two turn timewalk on your opponents fatty, etc. etc.
Trust me, it's a $1-3 rare now, but in 6 months or so it's going to be worth $10-20 once people start realizing it's strengths.
(And lets not forget the ridiculousness outside of Standard - for example Turn 0 moxen in Vintage seems good)
And yes, in some matchups a second doesn't do you much good - but See Beyond becomes ridiculously nice card draw when it's Instant speed and it allows you to toss the spare back into the mix. (Although in some matchups where they have enchantment hate, it is nice to have a backup since you can flash it in in response)
Instant speed sleep.....think about that for a minute. 2 turns that your opponent can't do ANYTHING with creatures? It's even better if you run it in a bounce deck so you can bounce the creature they summon next turn and thus have a clear field to wail on them....twice. It's a situational card....but it strikes me as a very Johnny type card, maybe even a Timmy (instant speed summon a big creature on your opponent's turn after they tap out). It has a lot of potential, I wish I had a second. One just isn't enough, and my blue deck is packed with scry, lol.
The only use i could see in it would be a Grixis deck with Grixis Specter and Blightning mixed together with Cancel and Mana Leak. Im currently testing such a deck with only 1 Leyline. Im not sure should i run more or is it ok with a 1 of, but it's quite interesting to be able to counter OR play one of my 8 Blightning effects at eot.
It's simply the best Leyline, people just need to learn how to break it - I've already learned how and reaping the rewards on MTGO.
Amongst other silly plays that are just amazingly wonderful - responding to your opponent's PW (or other annoying activated ability effect that can be used first turn) with an instant speed Needle.
Turning Kor Skywhatevertheyarecalled's into a removal + creature dodge. (And of course turning the same Kor into a white Faceless Butcher on crack paired with Journey)
Turning Kor Hookmaster into a two turn timewalk on your opponents fatty, etc. etc.
Trust me, it's a $1-3 rare now, but in 6 months or so it's going to be worth $10-20 once people start realizing it's strengths.
(And lets not forget the ridiculousness outside of Standard - for example Turn 0 moxen in Vintage seems good)
And yes, in some matchups a second doesn't do you much good - but See Beyond becomes ridiculously nice card draw when it's Instant speed and it allows you to toss the spare back into the mix. (Although in some matchups where they have enchantment hate, it is nice to have a backup since you can flash it in in response)
Wow. I mean. What? Kor Skyfisher is a mediocre card with a drawback that is made good by Leyline. Kor Hookmaster is a gray ogre half the time and a tiny tempo boost some of the time. These cards are not constructed-worthy, but it's okay, if the stars align I can make them halfway playable! I am breaking formats wide open here folks. I am going to single-handedly increase a card's value by a factor of ten.
Pithing needle is hardly main deckable, and the leyline does not make them that much better.
The odds of drawing one in your opening hand are less than 50% (7/15; roughly, not taking into account true probability. It's actually a bit higher.)
When you don't, these bad cards are just that. Kor Skyfisher time walks you. Kor Hookmaster is a gray ogre that keeps a guy tapped for a turn (oh noes). All while tapping you out of counterspell mana.
And yeah. Let me tell you how often you need those turn zero moxen. It's not like you can cast them for free on your turn or anything.
Once upon a time there was this card called Vedalken Orrery, and although it couldn't start on the battlefield, it was colorless which let you play it without playing enough blue to hit UU. It could have gone in any deck.
Once upon a time there was this card called Vedalken Orrery, and although it couldn't start on the battlefield, it was colorless which let you play it without playing enough blue to hit UU. It could have gone in any deck.
I'll let you guess how many it went in.
And how long was the average matchup length in the environment that Orrery existed in and what is the average matchup length today?
What's that? Mirrodin was one of the fastest Standard environments ever and today is towards the slow end of the scale - you don't say.
Tarmogoyf could've existed during Mirrodin and it wouldn't have seen much (if any) play - that doesn't mean it's a bad card, it would just been a bad card for THAT ENVIRONMENT. Hell, Jace:TMS would've likely have been bad in Mirrodin, far too expensive and too little effect on the game state compared to the hyperactive nature of the environment.
And when you're using Fisher to reuse ETB effects, it's hardly a self-timewalk.
And how long was the average matchup length in the environment that Orrery existed in and what is the average matchup length today?
What's that? Mirrodin was one of the fastest Standard environments ever and today is towards the slow end of the scale - you don't say.
Mirrodin was not a degenerate format until Darksteel, and Ravager Affinity and Skull-Clamp were the main reasons, (Disciple of the Vault was just an obsure card before Ravager came along), but if you travel back Urza's Saga their were decks that could win turn 2 before bannings. Elf and Nail and Affinity could not go off for the kill until the earliest turn 3. Arguably so could Onslaught Goblins with the God draw. If you seperate those decks and look at the format without Affinity and Skullclamp, then you find that it was not actually that fast when you compare it to other other formats.
Quote from Vaclav »
Tarmogoyf could've existed during Mirrodin and it wouldn't have seen much (if any) play - that doesn't mean it's a bad card, it would just been a bad card for THAT ENVIRONMENT. Hell, Jace:TMS would've likely have been bad in Mirrodin, far too expensive and too little effect on the game state compared to the hyperactive nature of the environment.
You do know that 'Goyf is played in Vintage and Legacy right, where fast and more broken things happen then even the Clamp. It's easily one of the best creatures ever printed. If it was around during Mirrodin it would have been played. Their were several powerful Green based decks that would have loved Tarmo-action whether it was when Onslaught was still legal, during the reign of Skull-Clamp, Post and Pre Ban Hammer you name it.
Jace, would also had seen play, not during the height of Affinity's tour, but before Dark Steel and after the Banning's it certainly would have.
Mirrodin was not a degenerate format until Darksteel, and Ravager Affinity and Skull-Clamp were the main reasons, (Disciple of the Vault was just an obsure card before Ravager came along), but if you travel back Urza's Saga their were decks that could win turn 2 before bannings. Elf and Nail and Affinity could not go off for the kill until the earliest turn 3. Arguably so could Onslaught Goblins with the God draw. If you seperate those decks and look at the format without Affinity and Skullclamp, then you find that it was not actually that fast when you compare it to other other formats.
I know, I was there. I was speaking to Mirrodin as a whole; when Onslaught was still legal and after Kamigawa came in. I know that Orrery was in Fifth Dawn. However after your comments on Goyf not being good enough to make the cut during the time, I don't know if you ever played during any of those formats.
Nothing built up a varied GY in the format except when a Ravager was going in for a kill...
Yea, post banning might be a different story, but I'm talking Mirrodin heyday in both cases. (When I got turned off and took a break until Kami block and tried to pretend Mirrodin 1.0 didn't exist.
Nothing built up a varied GY in the format except when a Ravager was going in for a kill.
wow, what an ignorant statement
I'd still call Quicken a lot better then blue leyline, but it was not played for the same reasons blue leyline wont: you end up playing sorceries that are only good as instants and end up with crap.dec
Nothing built up a varied GY in the format except when a Ravager was going in for a kill...
Yea, post banning might be a different story, but I'm talking Mirrodin heyday in both cases. (When I got turned off and took a break until Kami block and tried to pretend Mirrodin 1.0 didn't exist.
ponza use to start destroying lands on 2, not to mention monoblue shackles gained some popularity around this time aswell. both decks were played and threw stuff in the gy
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Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
And psst - more than just sorceries can benefit from Anticipation, unlike Quicken.
Like playing creature spells that need to be dealt with. I have a deck that uses the blue Leyline. Can anyone say over powered? I love the deck and this card makes it work, and work well. Here's the list:
The most devastating plays with this deck aren't the counterspells. It's the sorcery speed removal and the great creatures that are the caziest part. Instant speed Oblivion Ring? Instant speed DoJ? End of turn Behemoth Sledge? Now how do you feel about end of turn Rafiq of the Many or Knight of the Reliquary? It's basically giving the cards haste. Here's one: "In response to your Day of Judgment, instant speed Knight Exemplar." Now you let your Exemplar die but everything else stays safe to fight on.
I think this card has a LOT of potential and needs to be broken to be able to be appreciated. I tried to do my best with this deck.
Not one I'd looked at - have to test that one when I grab a few copies off a cheapybot (once downtime is over obviously) - would be exceptionally good a 5 land play before Sun Titan with 6 lands on top of the synergy to ditch extra copies it would allow ditching 0-3 CMC permanents if there weren't any in there yet. [doesn't happen often between fetches and the rest, but it's not impossible]
The way I see the leyline being good is if 1.) You can build a good deck without it 2.) The deck has a bunch of use beyond the typical advantage of "zomg I can cast it at the end of your turn," which could potentially be of use to any deck.
Right now, I'm not seeing it.
I think Vaclav at least has the right idea on how to make it good, but I'm just not buying that his deck is good enough without the leyline in play.
I've played several players attempting to use the leyline online, including fish-like decks, and I've yet to have my UW rofflestomped by them. In fact, I've won every single match. I would consider myself at a disadvantage because I didn't even know what I was playing against, thus making the already unpredictability the leyline allows even more unpredictable, but I still adapted and won.
Granted, those matches are not a good judgement of how good the leyline is, but it simply shows to me that it's really not as great as it sounds. You O-Ring on my turn. So what? That's far from a blowout. Find me some sweet interaction with the leyline in a deck that is great without the leyline and I'll be listening.
It's quite possible I bumped into a series of bad UW players [or the converse with a you bumping into bad variants that fit my vague description - if you've got viewable match #'s I'd be willing to comment on how close their build is however] - but frankly outside of them sticking Elspeth and keeping her protected, I think I lost maybe 1 in 10 matches - Elspeth was behind nearly every UW loss, and my "roflstomp" rate was around 60% or so preboard, 70% or so postboard.
It wasn't a sure thing, just a good matchup for the deck. Jund, RDW and Pyro Ascension are the completely lopsided matchups.
It's quite possible I bumped into a series of bad UW players [or the converse with a you bumping into bad variants that fit my vague description - if you've got viewable match #'s I'd be willing to comment on how close their build is however] - but frankly outside of them sticking Elspeth and keeping her protected, I think I lost maybe 1 in 10 matches - Elspeth was behind nearly every UW loss, and my "roflstomp" rate was around 60% or so preboard, 70% or so postboard.
It wasn't a sure thing, just a good matchup for the deck. Jund, RDW and Pyro Ascension are the completely lopsided matchups.
UW is the next trend and less expierenced players are testing it and learning to be good with it. So it's very possible that you ran into an influx of them online. Myself I have found that the better players don't play in the random matches and tend to play in the PTQ's and Premiers after testing irl. Have you placed well in any of those?
Even if your doing well against a small portion of the MOGO community that's all your win percentage represens, that your doing well against a small portion of a much larger number.
Without a list others cannot duplicate your results. While I can understand you dislike net decking and are trying to keep your super secret tech just that, you cannot expect people to just trust you enough to try and piece together your deck from the vague clues. Even if they did it would not be a replicating your results because they would not be playing the same people and they likely would not be using the same list. If you really wanted to keep the list to yourself why say anything.
As interesting as Leyline of Anticipation might be I just don't think there is a good deck to be build around it. There is no way to search for it as in a search or spell that lets you find an enchantment. With all the creatures and other spells you need to best use it, there is little room left to have anything to protect it or dig for it. If you don't find it in your opening hand your not coming online until 5th turn by which time you could be starring at a losing board position. Mulliganing to find it opening hand is very risky because it doesn't win the game on it's own. Finally without the stack in combat and no longer being about to assign damage then bounce creatures your limited on what you can do. There are many white and blue creatures with enter the battle effects, however if you're bouncing them to reuse those effects it's a great tempo loss without being able to do it in combat and still have them do damage.
And that is precisely why I said what I said - you'll note in the now defunct thread I'd mentioned terrible plays made on their part quite often that made me doubt the quality of some of the players.
Now that said, the number that made obvious "bad play" choices were in a minority though. But not all "bad play" is noticable through a PC screen.
I have gotten the impression those that I faced off against were not unskilled players however, but considering rating is hidden in MTGO now it's really impossible to say for sure. (Although with my rate rocketing for the tournament portion in low-Kvalue events I'd tend to think I've been facing reasonably well rated folks)
As for bouncing being tempo - it depends entirely on when you bounce - if you can swing and have the mana to recast the bounced critter so it will be able to swing again, it's quite certainly no impact to tempo. (although depending on the effectiveness of the ETB effects, obviously a single cast of a 5 CMC effect is likely better tempo than random bouncing and replay - it only really makes sense to bounce when poised to take advantage of the ETB effect not just "Hey, I bounced my lifegain dual for +1 life, woohoo!" [Which I have seen someone playing a similar deck do which made me die a little on the inside])
But yes, bouncing is far less aggressive than it used to be in the day - combat bouncing is more akin to the Maze of Ith or the old Gustcloaks, etc. not the aggressive powerhouse the effect used to be. [Not that pre-M10 aggressive bouncing would do much good for my build - very little is over 2 power]
And that is precisely why I said what I said - you'll note in the now defunct thread I'd mentioned terrible plays made on their part quite often that made me doubt the quality of some of the players.
Now that said, the number that made obvious "bad play" choices were in a minority though. But not all "bad play" is noticable through a PC screen.
I have gotten the impression those that I faced off against were not unskilled players however, but considering rating is hidden in MTGO now it's really impossible to say for sure. (Although with my rate rocketing for the tournament portion in low-Kvalue events I'd tend to think I've been facing reasonably well rated folks)
You should be able to notice bad or misplays regardless. A huge part of the game is being able to recognize and punish the other player's mistakes. The fact that is it online makes little difference, that part of the game remains unchanged.
So the only thing that you have used your pet deck for is testing and low K tourny. That's not comprehensive results really. You've not used it for something like a PTQ and posted multiple top 8's with it. I doubt you've even tested it outside of online.
Quote from Vaclav »
As for bouncing being tempo - it depends entirely on when you bounce - if you can swing and have the mana to recast the bounced critter so it will be able to swing again, it's quite certainly no impact to tempo. (although depending on the effectiveness of the ETB effects, obviously a single cast of a 5 CMC effect is likely better tempo than random bouncing and replay - it only really makes sense to bounce when poised to take advantage of the ETB effect not just "Hey, I bounced my lifegain dual for +1 life, woohoo!" [Which I have seen someone playing a similar deck do which made me die a little on the inside])
But yes, bouncing is far less aggressive than it used to be in the day - combat bouncing is more akin to the Maze of Ith or the old Gustcloaks, etc. not the aggressive powerhouse the effect used to be. [Not that pre-M10 aggressive bouncing would do much good for my build - very little is over 2 power]
In that situation all you have gained is an untapped blocker and whatever enters the battlefield effect it has. Most of the time you want to save the creature until the best time to use it, which in many cases is not playing it right away. This would be even more true if you could play them at any time with Leyline. The only creature that draws or nets you a card is Wall of Omens (which wouldn't be attacking) and Sea Gate Oracle the only other card you might play right away is Lone Missionary. Meddling Mage you wouldn't bounce if you got a clear attack. All the others with ETB effects that I can think of which are good enough play; (Kor Skyfisher, War Priest of Thune, Kor Hookmaster, Aether Adept, Clone and Knight of the White Orchid you wouldn't want to play again right away.
However what changes it that you must let the creature die to deal damage or bounce it to get it's ETB effect again. That's were you lose tempo, because you are not changing the other player's border position.
2 power doesn't matter if you could use that damage stacked, kill their creature and still keep yours creature. Even if you has to block with 2 creatures. Especially if the creature you saved had a good comes into play ability. Then if you could recur the creature you lost with Sun Titan at a later time, you might have a good deck going on there. In my opinion above all else, that's really what puts me against your deck idea is the removal of the stack from combat.
And how long was the average matchup length in the environment that Orrery existed in and what is the average matchup length today?
What's that? Mirrodin was one of the fastest Standard environments ever and today is towards the slow end of the scale - you don't say.
A faster environment doesn't imply that T2 is currently an environment more suitable for an Orrery or an Orrery imitation like the Leyline. One could argue the opposite, actually, with a) a lot of control and permission variants and b) a lot of removal...not just removal, but playable enchantment removal like O-Ring, and Pulse (not that anyone will care to destroy the Leyline as it does zero on its own other than provide situational advantages that may not even exist).
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
You should be able to notice bad or misplays regardless. A huge part of the game is being able to recognize and punish the other player's mistakes. The fact that is it online makes little difference, that part of the game remains unchanged.
Yes, but some misplays are a matter of misjudging the deck you're playing against, etc. and others are blatantly bad choices - I was referring to the latter. (Like the person that was using Mystifying Maze on my Sun Titan - sure he saved himself 6 damage that turn, but considering he allowed me to double up on recurs that turn it really made swarming him a ton easier)
Plenty of people made bad choices because of underestimation of where the threats in my deck are or misjudging what cards I had in hand. (i.e. would you consider replaying a Jace 2.0 after I ORinged the first a "bad play" generally? When I Kor-bounced the first ORing and got to reuse it plus killed both Jace's on the "legendary" rule that applies to PWs while regaining a piece of removal it certainly turned play that would generally be considered good in many circumstance into one that was god awful)
So the only thing that you have used your pet deck for is testing and low K tourny. That's not comprehensive results really. You've not used it for something like a PTQ and posted multiple top 8's with it. I doubt you've even tested it outside of online.
And? That's precisely why I said at least a half dozen times it may not be Tier 1 (In fact I'm pretty damn sure of it, since many of the common Tier 1.5-2 decks can brutalize my variant even though it metas very well against the current top dogs) - and of course, with my health that I espouse often I am unable to play in person, you'll note this is a GENERAL TYPE 2 part of the forum, not Tier 1 (or even necessarily 1.5-2) discussion only.
[Although I did recently find out there's a shop I had been unfamiliar with a few blocks away, within my "safe driving" distance where I can get there quick enough where I don't have to worry about having one of my neurological seizures or blackouts on the way - wife in the car with me makes those problems a relative non-issue at low speed, highways terrify me however. But I doubt their competition level is higher than online, and regardless my budget is a little tight for the next couple months, since my disability benefits are switching from SSSI to SSDI but there's a processing delay of some sort (I'll get backpay once it's processed, but being $900/mo down sucks for budgeting new stuff in, especially while looking at a $2-3k car repair =/)]
I do think with my general lack of a constructed history and my success with using the card to empower things though, that an excellent constructed player could easily post something impressive with it however.
In that situation all you have gained is an untapped blocker and whatever enters the battlefield effect it has. Most of the time you want to save the creature until the best time to use it, which in many cases is not playing it right away. This would be even more true if you could play them at any time with Leyline. The only creature that draws or nets you a card is Wall of Omens (which wouldn't be attacking) and Sea Gate Oracle the only other card you might play right away is Lone Missionary. Meddling Mage you wouldn't bounce if you got a clear attack. All the others with ETB effects that I can think of which are good enough play; (Kor Skyfisher, War Priest of Thune, Kor Hookmaster, Aether Adept, Clone and Knight of the White Orchid you wouldn't want to play again right away.
Psst - there's plenty of playables with ETB effects that are in the "permanent" category that benefit from chain casting, and sometimes prove beneficial to bounce to move. (i.e. one that someone annoyed me with last night with the first time I saw a similar build in a real event was Skyfishering Spreading Seas to switch it off my U/W standard dual onto Tectonic Edge when it was obvious I had enough W that it was pointless while netting a card - thankfully I had my own Kor to keep up the pressure with the Edge however - made me debate giving Spreading Seas a shot, but still on the fence about it [and with it being TNM "night" all day I won't be spending any real time toying with it today])
2 power doesn't matter if you could use that damage stacked, kill their creature and still keep yours creature. Even if you has to block with 2 creatures. Especially if the creature you saved had a good comes into play ability. Then if you could recur the creature you lost with Sun Titan at a later time, you might have a good deck going on there. In my opinion above all else, that's really what puts me against your deck idea is the removal of the stack from combat.
Only things I block with in my deck are the walls outside of things that I just summoned via flash for a surprise blocker + ETB effect. Yes, defensive gang-blocking under old rules would benefit too, but that's really not how my deck plays out in any great majority of cases.
Quote from Topper »
A faster environment doesn't imply that T2 is currently an environment more suitable for an Orrery or an Orrery imitation like the Leyline. One could argue the opposite, actually, with a) a lot of control and permission variants and b) a lot of removal...not just removal, but playable enchantment removal like O-Ring, and Pulse (not that anyone will care to destroy the Leyline as it does zero on its own other than provide situational advantages that may not even exist).
Really, an ETB light environment that (for the part I was familiar with Mirrodin at least, since as I admit I did take a break from it completely when Kamigawa came around) often ended by Turn 4-6 really makes something you have to hardcast for 4 and provides little benefit in the environment (due to the lack of ETB) would be just as usable?
Yea, for the powerful sorceries they were empowered just as much by Orrery (and actually now that you're forcing me to think back, I seem to recall Orrery appearing in some TnN variants...) but the Mirrodin environment only really had sorceries that saw any large benefit from gaining Flash.
[Especially since Skyfisher becomes such an insane toolbox with it - I can't imagine not playing Skyfisher if you run Anticipation - since it so often becomes a "1W counterspell" with a mediocre evasive body when paired]
[Especially since Skyfisher becomes such an insane toolbox with it - I can't imagine not playing Skyfisher if you run Anticipation - since it so often becomes a "1W counterspell" with a mediocre evasive body when paired]
Sorry had to laugh at this for a bit when I saw this. I want to hear how getting a bounce effect actually acts as a counter spell instead of a "counter effect". The difference between the two are huge: Mana leak can counter actual spells being cast and is a spell while bounce effects like sky fisher are actual effects that can counter some things like targeting spells or effects on permanents.
I agree that leyline is a fun card and worth testing in an fnm environment but it's certainly not a "true competitive" card. Now if Anticipation was a green card there would be a huge debate on how good it really is and would probably be consider a chase rare because of scenarios with Fauna Shaman.
Sorry had to laugh at this for a bit when I saw this. I want to hear how getting a bounce effect actually acts as a counter spell instead of a "counter effect". The difference between the two are huge: Mana leak can counter actual spells being cast and is a spell while bounce effects like sky fisher are actual effects that can counter some things like targeting spells or effects on permanents.
Right, and what are the dangers an aggro deck wants to counter? Removal - generally targeted removal. (and considering I run white Ley as well stuff that targets me is a non-issue)
For the rare enough stuff that actually is threatening and requires REAL counters *gasp* I actually run counters for. You know, using real counters on the stuff that requires it and using other effects that can mirror the benefits when able - rather than wasting limited numbers of counters like an idiot.
Talking down to people because you either don't like their terminology (when their intent is obvious) or because you assume they're an idiot just because they make a card recommendation you disagree with only makes you look like a child.
And just to clarify a reasonable size list of playables it can "counter" that you seem to find hilariously "incorrect":
Terminate, Bitluminous Blast (not the cascade though nec, obviously - but most counters don't do that either), ORing, Journey, SGC sacrifices, Path, Condemn, etc etc etc.
I could continue another 10-15 min I'm sure, but I don't feel like wasting my time that much.
And unlike your beloved comparison to mana leak it's a "hard counter" for that large variety of effects and spells, meaning come turn 6+ it's still going to counter every spell you need to counter whereas leak starts becoming hit or miss - and the Fisher is far easier to recur for reuse.
But yea, I'm a terrible player for preferring Skyfishering to "counter" versus wasting my real counters willy-nilly. It's honestly no more limited than Negate which sees plenty of play (at least on SB) online. [They both don't overlap completely, but for every dangerous effect one gets additionally there's a dangerous effect it misses and the other gets - they complement each other well as hard counters]
And for your Fauna example - I don't know about your environment, but many of the Fauna decks online are U/G - I don't think it would fit as a straight addition/replacement to that build however. (or even giving much tangible benefit)
I wasn't judging your skills as a player through your terminology use I was just remarking how it's funny sometimes to see "counter spell" be misused for "counter effect". I'm sure the UG decks are cute but no we don't have those at my meta because no one feels that playing a good card (leyline) to enhance a great card (shaman) is worth making slots or a whole deck around. What I mean by if the enchantment was green decks like nay shaman and possibly jund would have the card in their side board for the control match ups.
And for the record I don't know how good u are and I honestly don't care.
I wasn't judging your skills as a player through your terminology use I was just remarking how it's funny sometimes to see "counter spell" be misused for "counter effect". I'm sure the UG decks are cute but no we don't have those at my meta because no one feels that playing a good card (leyline) to enhance a great card (shaman) is worth making slots or a whole deck around. What I mean by if the enchantment was green decks like nay shaman and possibly jund would have the card in their side board for the control match ups.
You've not seen the various turboland variants that are U/G? Wow
Heck, just in Competitive and Developing Competitive at the top here Turbo Land is represented + Poly. (And honestly, I'm not a Poly guy, but I gotta say Mass Poly Opponent's EOT sounds hilarious) [And I'm too lazy to dredge through the Naya Venge one to see if the U/G variant is listed within the thread]
Amongst other silly plays that are just amazingly wonderful - responding to your opponent's PW (or other annoying activated ability effect that can be used first turn) with an instant speed Needle.
Turning Kor Skywhatevertheyarecalled's into a removal + creature dodge. (And of course turning the same Kor into a white Faceless Butcher on crack paired with Journey)
Turning Kor Hookmaster into a two turn timewalk on your opponents fatty, etc. etc.
Trust me, it's a $1-3 rare now, but in 6 months or so it's going to be worth $10-20 once people start realizing it's strengths.
(And lets not forget the ridiculousness outside of Standard - for example Turn 0 moxen in Vintage seems good)
And yes, in some matchups a second doesn't do you much good - but See Beyond becomes ridiculously nice card draw when it's Instant speed and it allows you to toss the spare back into the mix. (Although in some matchups where they have enchantment hate, it is nice to have a backup since you can flash it in in response)
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Wow. I mean. What? Kor Skyfisher is a mediocre card with a drawback that is made good by Leyline. Kor Hookmaster is a gray ogre half the time and a tiny tempo boost some of the time. These cards are not constructed-worthy, but it's okay, if the stars align I can make them halfway playable! I am breaking formats wide open here folks. I am going to single-handedly increase a card's value by a factor of ten.
Pithing needle is hardly main deckable, and the leyline does not make them that much better.
The odds of drawing one in your opening hand are less than 50% (7/15; roughly, not taking into account true probability. It's actually a bit higher.)
When you don't, these bad cards are just that. Kor Skyfisher time walks you. Kor Hookmaster is a gray ogre that keeps a guy tapped for a turn (oh noes). All while tapping you out of counterspell mana.
And yeah. Let me tell you how often you need those turn zero moxen. It's not like you can cast them for free on your turn or anything.
Once upon a time there was this card called Vedalken Orrery, and although it couldn't start on the battlefield, it was colorless which let you play it without playing enough blue to hit UU. It could have gone in any deck.
I'll let you guess how many it went in.
BBB Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief BBB
GBW Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
UBU Sexy Wrexy BUB
RUG Riku of Two Reflections GUR
GGG Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant GGG
And how long was the average matchup length in the environment that Orrery existed in and what is the average matchup length today?
What's that? Mirrodin was one of the fastest Standard environments ever and today is towards the slow end of the scale - you don't say.
Tarmogoyf could've existed during Mirrodin and it wouldn't have seen much (if any) play - that doesn't mean it's a bad card, it would just been a bad card for THAT ENVIRONMENT. Hell, Jace:TMS would've likely have been bad in Mirrodin, far too expensive and too little effect on the game state compared to the hyperactive nature of the environment.
And when you're using Fisher to reuse ETB effects, it's hardly a self-timewalk.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Mirrodin was not a degenerate format until Darksteel, and Ravager Affinity and Skull-Clamp were the main reasons, (Disciple of the Vault was just an obsure card before Ravager came along), but if you travel back Urza's Saga their were decks that could win turn 2 before bannings. Elf and Nail and Affinity could not go off for the kill until the earliest turn 3. Arguably so could Onslaught Goblins with the God draw. If you seperate those decks and look at the format without Affinity and Skullclamp, then you find that it was not actually that fast when you compare it to other other formats.
You do know that 'Goyf is played in Vintage and Legacy right, where fast and more broken things happen then even the Clamp. It's easily one of the best creatures ever printed. If it was around during Mirrodin it would have been played. Their were several powerful Green based decks that would have loved Tarmo-action whether it was when Onslaught was still legal, during the reign of Skull-Clamp, Post and Pre Ban Hammer you name it.
Jace, would also had seen play, not during the height of Affinity's tour, but before Dark Steel and after the Banning's it certainly would have.
Pssst - Fifth Dawn was after Darksteel.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
I know, I was there. I was speaking to Mirrodin as a whole; when Onslaught was still legal and after Kamigawa came in. I know that Orrery was in Fifth Dawn. However after your comments on Goyf not being good enough to make the cut during the time, I don't know if you ever played during any of those formats.
Yea, post banning might be a different story, but I'm talking Mirrodin heyday in both cases. (When I got turned off and took a break until Kami block and tried to pretend Mirrodin 1.0 didn't exist.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
wow, what an ignorant statement
I'd still call Quicken a lot better then blue leyline, but it was not played for the same reasons blue leyline wont: you end up playing sorceries that are only good as instants and end up with crap.dec
ponza use to start destroying lands on 2, not to mention monoblue shackles gained some popularity around this time aswell. both decks were played and threw stuff in the gy
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
And psst - more than just sorceries can benefit from Anticipation, unlike Quicken.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Like playing creature spells that need to be dealt with. I have a deck that uses the blue Leyline. Can anyone say over powered? I love the deck and this card makes it work, and work well. Here's the list:
4x Steward of Valeron
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Rafiq of the Many
Spells - 20
4x Bant Charm
3x Mana Leak
2x Cancel
3x Day of Judgment
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Leyline of Anticipation
2x Behemoth Sledge
5x Plains
3x Forest
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Sunpetal Grove
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Halimar Depths
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
The most devastating plays with this deck aren't the counterspells. It's the sorcery speed removal and the great creatures that are the caziest part. Instant speed Oblivion Ring? Instant speed DoJ? End of turn Behemoth Sledge? Now how do you feel about end of turn Rafiq of the Many or Knight of the Reliquary? It's basically giving the cards haste. Here's one: "In response to your Day of Judgment, instant speed Knight Exemplar." Now you let your Exemplar die but everything else stays safe to fight on.
I think this card has a LOT of potential and needs to be broken to be able to be appreciated. I tried to do my best with this deck.
Commander GU Edric Control
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Right now, I'm not seeing it.
I think Vaclav at least has the right idea on how to make it good, but I'm just not buying that his deck is good enough without the leyline in play.
I've played several players attempting to use the leyline online, including fish-like decks, and I've yet to have my UW rofflestomped by them. In fact, I've won every single match. I would consider myself at a disadvantage because I didn't even know what I was playing against, thus making the already unpredictability the leyline allows even more unpredictable, but I still adapted and won.
Granted, those matches are not a good judgement of how good the leyline is, but it simply shows to me that it's really not as great as it sounds. You O-Ring on my turn. So what? That's far from a blowout. Find me some sweet interaction with the leyline in a deck that is great without the leyline and I'll be listening.
It wasn't a sure thing, just a good matchup for the deck. Jund, RDW and Pyro Ascension are the completely lopsided matchups.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
UW is the next trend and less expierenced players are testing it and learning to be good with it. So it's very possible that you ran into an influx of them online. Myself I have found that the better players don't play in the random matches and tend to play in the PTQ's and Premiers after testing irl. Have you placed well in any of those?
Even if your doing well against a small portion of the MOGO community that's all your win percentage represens, that your doing well against a small portion of a much larger number.
Without a list others cannot duplicate your results. While I can understand you dislike net decking and are trying to keep your super secret tech just that, you cannot expect people to just trust you enough to try and piece together your deck from the vague clues. Even if they did it would not be a replicating your results because they would not be playing the same people and they likely would not be using the same list. If you really wanted to keep the list to yourself why say anything.
As interesting as Leyline of Anticipation might be I just don't think there is a good deck to be build around it. There is no way to search for it as in a search or spell that lets you find an enchantment. With all the creatures and other spells you need to best use it, there is little room left to have anything to protect it or dig for it. If you don't find it in your opening hand your not coming online until 5th turn by which time you could be starring at a losing board position. Mulliganing to find it opening hand is very risky because it doesn't win the game on it's own. Finally without the stack in combat and no longer being about to assign damage then bounce creatures your limited on what you can do. There are many white and blue creatures with enter the battle effects, however if you're bouncing them to reuse those effects it's a great tempo loss without being able to do it in combat and still have them do damage.
Now that said, the number that made obvious "bad play" choices were in a minority though. But not all "bad play" is noticable through a PC screen.
I have gotten the impression those that I faced off against were not unskilled players however, but considering rating is hidden in MTGO now it's really impossible to say for sure. (Although with my rate rocketing for the tournament portion in low-Kvalue events I'd tend to think I've been facing reasonably well rated folks)
As for bouncing being tempo - it depends entirely on when you bounce - if you can swing and have the mana to recast the bounced critter so it will be able to swing again, it's quite certainly no impact to tempo. (although depending on the effectiveness of the ETB effects, obviously a single cast of a 5 CMC effect is likely better tempo than random bouncing and replay - it only really makes sense to bounce when poised to take advantage of the ETB effect not just "Hey, I bounced my lifegain dual for +1 life, woohoo!" [Which I have seen someone playing a similar deck do which made me die a little on the inside])
But yes, bouncing is far less aggressive than it used to be in the day - combat bouncing is more akin to the Maze of Ith or the old Gustcloaks, etc. not the aggressive powerhouse the effect used to be. [Not that pre-M10 aggressive bouncing would do much good for my build - very little is over 2 power]
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
You should be able to notice bad or misplays regardless. A huge part of the game is being able to recognize and punish the other player's mistakes. The fact that is it online makes little difference, that part of the game remains unchanged.
So the only thing that you have used your pet deck for is testing and low K tourny. That's not comprehensive results really. You've not used it for something like a PTQ and posted multiple top 8's with it. I doubt you've even tested it outside of online.
In that situation all you have gained is an untapped blocker and whatever enters the battlefield effect it has. Most of the time you want to save the creature until the best time to use it, which in many cases is not playing it right away. This would be even more true if you could play them at any time with Leyline. The only creature that draws or nets you a card is Wall of Omens (which wouldn't be attacking) and Sea Gate Oracle the only other card you might play right away is Lone Missionary. Meddling Mage you wouldn't bounce if you got a clear attack. All the others with ETB effects that I can think of which are good enough play; (Kor Skyfisher, War Priest of Thune, Kor Hookmaster, Aether Adept, Clone and Knight of the White Orchid you wouldn't want to play again right away.
However what changes it that you must let the creature die to deal damage or bounce it to get it's ETB effect again. That's were you lose tempo, because you are not changing the other player's border position.
2 power doesn't matter if you could use that damage stacked, kill their creature and still keep yours creature. Even if you has to block with 2 creatures. Especially if the creature you saved had a good comes into play ability. Then if you could recur the creature you lost with Sun Titan at a later time, you might have a good deck going on there. In my opinion above all else, that's really what puts me against your deck idea is the removal of the stack from combat.
A faster environment doesn't imply that T2 is currently an environment more suitable for an Orrery or an Orrery imitation like the Leyline. One could argue the opposite, actually, with a) a lot of control and permission variants and b) a lot of removal...not just removal, but playable enchantment removal like O-Ring, and Pulse (not that anyone will care to destroy the Leyline as it does zero on its own other than provide situational advantages that may not even exist).
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Yes, but some misplays are a matter of misjudging the deck you're playing against, etc. and others are blatantly bad choices - I was referring to the latter. (Like the person that was using Mystifying Maze on my Sun Titan - sure he saved himself 6 damage that turn, but considering he allowed me to double up on recurs that turn it really made swarming him a ton easier)
Plenty of people made bad choices because of underestimation of where the threats in my deck are or misjudging what cards I had in hand. (i.e. would you consider replaying a Jace 2.0 after I ORinged the first a "bad play" generally? When I Kor-bounced the first ORing and got to reuse it plus killed both Jace's on the "legendary" rule that applies to PWs while regaining a piece of removal it certainly turned play that would generally be considered good in many circumstance into one that was god awful)
And? That's precisely why I said at least a half dozen times it may not be Tier 1 (In fact I'm pretty damn sure of it, since many of the common Tier 1.5-2 decks can brutalize my variant even though it metas very well against the current top dogs) - and of course, with my health that I espouse often I am unable to play in person, you'll note this is a GENERAL TYPE 2 part of the forum, not Tier 1 (or even necessarily 1.5-2) discussion only.
[Although I did recently find out there's a shop I had been unfamiliar with a few blocks away, within my "safe driving" distance where I can get there quick enough where I don't have to worry about having one of my neurological seizures or blackouts on the way - wife in the car with me makes those problems a relative non-issue at low speed, highways terrify me however. But I doubt their competition level is higher than online, and regardless my budget is a little tight for the next couple months, since my disability benefits are switching from SSSI to SSDI but there's a processing delay of some sort (I'll get backpay once it's processed, but being $900/mo down sucks for budgeting new stuff in, especially while looking at a $2-3k car repair =/)]
I do think with my general lack of a constructed history and my success with using the card to empower things though, that an excellent constructed player could easily post something impressive with it however.
Psst - there's plenty of playables with ETB effects that are in the "permanent" category that benefit from chain casting, and sometimes prove beneficial to bounce to move. (i.e. one that someone annoyed me with last night with the first time I saw a similar build in a real event was Skyfishering Spreading Seas to switch it off my U/W standard dual onto Tectonic Edge when it was obvious I had enough W that it was pointless while netting a card - thankfully I had my own Kor to keep up the pressure with the Edge however - made me debate giving Spreading Seas a shot, but still on the fence about it [and with it being TNM "night" all day I won't be spending any real time toying with it today])
Only things I block with in my deck are the walls outside of things that I just summoned via flash for a surprise blocker + ETB effect. Yes, defensive gang-blocking under old rules would benefit too, but that's really not how my deck plays out in any great majority of cases.
Really, an ETB light environment that (for the part I was familiar with Mirrodin at least, since as I admit I did take a break from it completely when Kamigawa came around) often ended by Turn 4-6 really makes something you have to hardcast for 4 and provides little benefit in the environment (due to the lack of ETB) would be just as usable?
Yea, for the powerful sorceries they were empowered just as much by Orrery (and actually now that you're forcing me to think back, I seem to recall Orrery appearing in some TnN variants...) but the Mirrodin environment only really had sorceries that saw any large benefit from gaining Flash.
[Especially since Skyfisher becomes such an insane toolbox with it - I can't imagine not playing Skyfisher if you run Anticipation - since it so often becomes a "1W counterspell" with a mediocre evasive body when paired]
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Sorry had to laugh at this for a bit when I saw this. I want to hear how getting a bounce effect actually acts as a counter spell instead of a "counter effect". The difference between the two are huge: Mana leak can counter actual spells being cast and is a spell while bounce effects like sky fisher are actual effects that can counter some things like targeting spells or effects on permanents.
I agree that leyline is a fun card and worth testing in an fnm environment but it's certainly not a "true competitive" card. Now if Anticipation was a green card there would be a huge debate on how good it really is and would probably be consider a chase rare because of scenarios with Fauna Shaman.
There was once [The Pack], but no more.
Right, and what are the dangers an aggro deck wants to counter? Removal - generally targeted removal. (and considering I run white Ley as well stuff that targets me is a non-issue)
For the rare enough stuff that actually is threatening and requires REAL counters *gasp* I actually run counters for. You know, using real counters on the stuff that requires it and using other effects that can mirror the benefits when able - rather than wasting limited numbers of counters like an idiot.
Talking down to people because you either don't like their terminology (when their intent is obvious) or because you assume they're an idiot just because they make a card recommendation you disagree with only makes you look like a child.
And just to clarify a reasonable size list of playables it can "counter" that you seem to find hilariously "incorrect":
Terminate, Bitluminous Blast (not the cascade though nec, obviously - but most counters don't do that either), ORing, Journey, SGC sacrifices, Path, Condemn, etc etc etc.
I could continue another 10-15 min I'm sure, but I don't feel like wasting my time that much.
And unlike your beloved comparison to mana leak it's a "hard counter" for that large variety of effects and spells, meaning come turn 6+ it's still going to counter every spell you need to counter whereas leak starts becoming hit or miss - and the Fisher is far easier to recur for reuse.
But yea, I'm a terrible player for preferring Skyfishering to "counter" versus wasting my real counters willy-nilly. It's honestly no more limited than Negate which sees plenty of play (at least on SB) online. [They both don't overlap completely, but for every dangerous effect one gets additionally there's a dangerous effect it misses and the other gets - they complement each other well as hard counters]
And for your Fauna example - I don't know about your environment, but many of the Fauna decks online are U/G - I don't think it would fit as a straight addition/replacement to that build however. (or even giving much tangible benefit)
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
And for the record I don't know how good u are and I honestly don't care.
There was once [The Pack], but no more.
You've not seen the various turboland variants that are U/G? Wow
Heck, just in Competitive and Developing Competitive at the top here Turbo Land is represented + Poly. (And honestly, I'm not a Poly guy, but I gotta say Mass Poly Opponent's EOT sounds hilarious) [And I'm too lazy to dredge through the Naya Venge one to see if the U/G variant is listed within the thread]
And of course there's a Bant list as well.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.