That is my meta. I am ok with a weak game vs RDW and being 50ish % or so vs. Mythic Conscription. And I can have Bad MU vs. other things.
But I find it really hard to beat all 3 decks with the same deck as they come from 3 totally opposite angles. If I have lots of creature kill it is semi dead vs. U/W and almost all dead vs. Valakut. Heavy Counters are great vs. Valakut and U/W - but get me killed vs. Naya. Even with the SB, I find it hard to balance so that I have a STRONG MU (not just 50/50) vs. all 3.
I asked my friend this, and he basically said I was on crack - that "of course you can't find one deck to beat all 3- if you could you'd have cracked the main meta, and everyone would have found it and played it already". So is it asking too much to find a deck that beats on these 3 decks that I see all over the place in my meta?
Play mono white control. Against naya, all you have to do is wrath and you win, against valakut, you can just get rid of their titans and then bash face, and it has about a 50/50 matchup against UW, it all depends on who draws into more threats.
I believe that I have enough social competence to slip into a party or two, potentially wooing some attractive females that would not mind spending the evening performing the booty dance on me.
I would imagine the Turbo Land / Polymorph sideboard deck would have a pretty solid match up against all 3 of these decks really, you play Turbo Land game one and then switch it to Polymorph for game 2
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Look at my name...what did you expect?
Thank you WOTC for introducing the Modern format, a format where all the whiners can enjoy a level playing field and where they can play with none of the best cards of all time!
Well, these decks have all pretty much consistently made top 8 in recent high-level tourneys, so they're definitely the ones to beat.
Getting rid of the Titan in R/G Valakut builds won't immediately win you the game, as it does a lot to help them just by entering the battlefield. However, I will certainly give you that removing it before it has a chance to attack will definitely keep you alive if anything.
Leyline of Sanctity is decent for slowing Valakut down or forcing them to use removal on it before they can target your face for the usual 24-30+ damage.
Like the others said, I suppose it would definitely help to show us a current decklist. The tools to slow Valakut and Naya down do exist in White, however, one of the arguably more powerful colors in Standard right now, so if you want to not get rolled over by these, you may be looking at a future decklist with at least just a little bit of W. Not saying you HAVE to in order to win, just that it may help by providing you with a good variety of tools.
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Current Standard decks: GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0 RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks: GMultani, Maro-SorcererG
Honestly Valakut's only scary if it goes off, but both it and Naya crumble to Day of Judgement, and U/W is tricky to play against, but the biggest thing about this match up that pepole read wrong, is that most of the time they still win through creatures (Be it Man-Lands, Gideon, or BSA), so removal is still key in that match up.
Easy...RDW! Are you kidding me it has a favorable matchup with all three of these. It is What I am most scared of and I run all three of these decks. It is cheap and easy to build and there aren't alot of threats for it. Side in creature Heavy Game 2 in order to ignore Leyline of Sanctity, Just in case!
Im just looking for some constructive critiscism for my deck. I've been wanting to get into competetive play lately so i need help figuring out if my deck is good enough to play at FNM.
The best I can tihnk of is to become skilled with a permission-heavy UW or UWx build.
With a heavy permission control deck, outside of horrible draws and mistakes, you should do well enough. So getting familiar and great with the deck works fine, but there are also specific answers to each deck.
Versus Valakut, an SB'd Leyline of Sanctity works. The counterargument is Naturalize, but you're playing counters for a reason. Outside of that, you just need to control their bombs, which shouldn't be a problem with countermagic and spot-removal.
Versus Shaman Naya, you Path to Exile to deal with Vengevine, and landing a Baneslayer Angel is bound to win the game for you. Day of Judgment helps, as well. The trick here is to balance your removal and counters right, and make sure you draw into them. The same could be said for most matchups, however.
Versus U/W, you have to rely on your play skill mostly. If it's tapout, it should be an easy match if you're playing heavy countermagic. If it's the 8-10 counter package that a lot are playing now, then it's mostly up to outplaying your opponent. Splashing black could help to use Duress, Tidehollow Sculler, and Esper Charm.
Easy...RDW! Are you kidding me it has a favorable matchup with all three of these. It is What I am most scared of and I run all three of these decks. It is cheap and easy to build and there aren't alot of threats for it. Side in creature Heavy Game 2 in order to ignore Leyline of Sanctity, Just in case!
I don't know about RDW vs. U/W. I used to roll U/W with my red deck pretty good pre-M11, but recently people around here have been playing a much more permission based deck, with 8 or so main decked counters, 8 more off the sb, paths and condemns md, with celestial purges off the sb. The MU has become much harder, they remove or counter every single thing I play.
I dunno why people think Naya-Vine rolls to Day, that's the whole point of the deck, play vengevine, force a wrath, play bloodbraid and win. Also, if the Valakut player resolves a Titan and you don't have any LD, you're going to die unless you've got ample pressure on them already.
I played Naya-Vine to second place at our LGS' Gameday, losing to Valakut ramp in the finals. My opponent was dead on board and I was at 18 when he top decked a Titan. I even had the removal and still died next turn.
I think mostly burn RDW is a decent choice against these 3 decks, especially Valakut.
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Tournament Victories:
Indianapolis Regionals 2009 (Standard)
Worldwake Gameday (Limited)
I love how these how do I beat ______ that is dominating my meta has gone from like 1 deck to 3 decks all with completely different strategies. There are plenty of options to beat any one or two of the three, but asking for all well if there was an easy answer I'm sure people would be playing it. There are decks that can do decently but they get hated out if they are making too much of splash like RDW. I'd be interested to try Runeflare trap. If any one does come up with a miracle deck that beats control, aggro, and ramp combo I'm all ears. Until then I will continue to play my Aggro Control Shaman deck and settle for decent matchups against all 3.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm still unsure about how to stay within the rules here. If the discussion gets too deck specific instead of card specific am I better to open a new thread under the decks sub-forum?
In any event, keeping it more general, I have had a lot of success in the last 6-7 hours with a new idea. I have been running a U/B Control shell. Esper manabase is a bit slow and has trouble running the tec edges vs. Valakut. White doesn't help much vs. Valakut or U/W. The key vs. both of them is heavy counters. And you don't want too many creatures as unless you are heavy aggro, they are not great vs. either.
SO basically: U/B shell with ~ 8 maindeck counters. 3 Grave Titans and 4 Black Knights main. Good against U/W and Naya and still not too many creatures to be unwinnable vs. Valakut. Some inquisitions of Kozalek vs. U/W and Naya are good too.
So far, I have good games vs. Valakuta and U/W - but Naya is steamrolling me consistently. They are too fast. However, while I lose consistently, games are close - I just need to find the right MD and SB amountof cards that put me over the top without losing my edge vs. U/W and Valakut.
I tried haunting echoes vs. Naya, but just too slow. I am having more success with 2-3 Bojuka Bogs (works well with deprives too). Aside from the 4 doom blades standard, I'm not sure what kind of removal to work in MD and SB vs. Naya. 1 for 1 removal might not do it. I'm also thinking about Abyssal Persecutors vs. Naya (and they wouldn't suck vs. U/W and Valakut). The problem is removing them myself. So far only Jace bounces them - maybe some Consuming vapors?
For attacking Naya's mana dorks I thought about royal assassin - but would that be fodder to sparkmages? Maybe Marsh casualties? Deatmark, though 1 for 1, might be ok vs. all three decks.
We need to know what you're playing before we can help you.
You're getting rolled by Naya because you're playing black instead of white. Anything white can single out a Vengevine with will keep it out of the graveyard, and Baneslayer remains the most efficient defense against it. That being said, if you're intent on running the worst color in the format, I'd go ahead and suggest running Deathmarks and Leylines of the Void to deal with Naya, but black is crippled by a lack of mass removal and its spot removal is entirely outclassed in this metagame.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
Pretty sure decklists are OK in here - just don't get surprised if they get moved if deemed to fit a "deckbuilding" thread once the conversation develops.
At least that's my understanding of the rules here - I could be completely off.
Until I get word from a mod, I am gonna go with my gut that says "general" card and overall deck discussion here. But anything specific about individual decks goes there.
Balls-out aggro. Hit them with millions of creatures before they have time to do stuff. Plus, it's the manliest deck type ever.
Sigged. =P
As for running aggro, it pretty much can beat control. You just have to beat the day of judgment. So the key to running aggro is winning turn 3-6. Mono Green Aggro, or RDW can both do that.
Either that, or I think Conscription has some pretty good matchups there. Minus Valakut, but you can sideboard in answers to that.
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Modern Decks: GGGMGAGGG RRRRed AffinityRRR RGShamansGR BWB/W ControlWB
No. There was a tourney that just passed this weekend mono black vamps got third place, listing better than all three decks mentioned in the OP. there's a link in the 'whats up with black?' thread.
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~Intelligence is Bliss; Ignorance is Denial.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
No. There was a tourney that just passed this weekend mono black vamps got third place, listing better than all three decks mentioned in the OP. there's a link in the 'whats up with black?' thread.
I wouldnt take a 1 tournament sample size to say vamps can consistently beat those decks.
there are 0 tourneys representing any decks mentioned, sans jund and maybe Dforce, doing better than all the mentioned decks.
1 is better than 0 at that point.
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~Intelligence is Bliss; Ignorance is Denial.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I kind of like Vengevine. Either i O-ring/Path it, or i keep killing it which forces my opponent to empty their hand, then I DOJ and counter everything that they draw.
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Petitioning for the removal of crybaby sigs. Sig this if you hate whiners.
Currently Playing: UW UW Control WR Tempered Steel GR Valakut Ramp G Elves GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
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But I find it really hard to beat all 3 decks with the same deck as they come from 3 totally opposite angles. If I have lots of creature kill it is semi dead vs. U/W and almost all dead vs. Valakut. Heavy Counters are great vs. Valakut and U/W - but get me killed vs. Naya. Even with the SB, I find it hard to balance so that I have a STRONG MU (not just 50/50) vs. all 3.
I asked my friend this, and he basically said I was on crack - that "of course you can't find one deck to beat all 3- if you could you'd have cracked the main meta, and everyone would have found it and played it already". So is it asking too much to find a deck that beats on these 3 decks that I see all over the place in my meta?
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
RUG Riku, Two is Better Than One
UB [PRIMER] Wrexial, Classic Control
RG Radha, Ramp's Theme Goes With Everything
Thank you WOTC for introducing the Modern format, a format where all the whiners can enjoy a level playing field and where they can play with none of the best cards of all time!
Getting rid of the Titan in R/G Valakut builds won't immediately win you the game, as it does a lot to help them just by entering the battlefield. However, I will certainly give you that removing it before it has a chance to attack will definitely keep you alive if anything.
Leyline of Sanctity is decent for slowing Valakut down or forcing them to use removal on it before they can target your face for the usual 24-30+ damage.
Like the others said, I suppose it would definitely help to show us a current decklist. The tools to slow Valakut and Naya down do exist in White, however, one of the arguably more powerful colors in Standard right now, so if you want to not get rolled over by these, you may be looking at a future decklist with at least just a little bit of W. Not saying you HAVE to in order to win, just that it may help by providing you with a good variety of tools.
GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0
RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks:
GMultani, Maro-SorcererG
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
Thanks to Sgt. Chubbz!
Standard
RRDWR
RG Valakut Titan Ramp GR
With a heavy permission control deck, outside of horrible draws and mistakes, you should do well enough. So getting familiar and great with the deck works fine, but there are also specific answers to each deck.
Versus Valakut, an SB'd Leyline of Sanctity works. The counterargument is Naturalize, but you're playing counters for a reason. Outside of that, you just need to control their bombs, which shouldn't be a problem with countermagic and spot-removal.
Versus Shaman Naya, you Path to Exile to deal with Vengevine, and landing a Baneslayer Angel is bound to win the game for you. Day of Judgment helps, as well. The trick here is to balance your removal and counters right, and make sure you draw into them. The same could be said for most matchups, however.
Versus U/W, you have to rely on your play skill mostly. If it's tapout, it should be an easy match if you're playing heavy countermagic. If it's the 8-10 counter package that a lot are playing now, then it's mostly up to outplaying your opponent. Splashing black could help to use Duress, Tidehollow Sculler, and Esper Charm.
I don't know about RDW vs. U/W. I used to roll U/W with my red deck pretty good pre-M11, but recently people around here have been playing a much more permission based deck, with 8 or so main decked counters, 8 more off the sb, paths and condemns md, with celestial purges off the sb. The MU has become much harder, they remove or counter every single thing I play.
Currently playing
R/W/B Midrange
Modern:
Looking into U/W/R Tempo
Legacy:
Canadian Threshold (RUG Tempo)
EDH:
Horde of Notions (5 Color ETB abuse)
And My Lovely Powered Cube
Abolish the Reserve List!
T2: GGElfdraziGG
Extended: GGElves!GG
EDH: BBMarrow-GnawerBB + RGRosheen MeandererRG + UUMemnarchUU
I'd be happy to talk about what I am using atm, however I thought there were no decklists allowed here. So I am not sure what to do.
I played Naya-Vine to second place at our LGS' Gameday, losing to Valakut ramp in the finals. My opponent was dead on board and I was at 18 when he top decked a Titan. I even had the removal and still died next turn.
I think mostly burn RDW is a decent choice against these 3 decks, especially Valakut.
Indianapolis Regionals 2009 (Standard)
Worldwake Gameday (Limited)
See my alters here: http://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/jimmy2do/Cards/
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
In any event, keeping it more general, I have had a lot of success in the last 6-7 hours with a new idea. I have been running a U/B Control shell. Esper manabase is a bit slow and has trouble running the tec edges vs. Valakut. White doesn't help much vs. Valakut or U/W. The key vs. both of them is heavy counters. And you don't want too many creatures as unless you are heavy aggro, they are not great vs. either.
SO basically: U/B shell with ~ 8 maindeck counters. 3 Grave Titans and 4 Black Knights main. Good against U/W and Naya and still not too many creatures to be unwinnable vs. Valakut. Some inquisitions of Kozalek vs. U/W and Naya are good too.
So far, I have good games vs. Valakuta and U/W - but Naya is steamrolling me consistently. They are too fast. However, while I lose consistently, games are close - I just need to find the right MD and SB amountof cards that put me over the top without losing my edge vs. U/W and Valakut.
I tried haunting echoes vs. Naya, but just too slow. I am having more success with 2-3 Bojuka Bogs (works well with deprives too). Aside from the 4 doom blades standard, I'm not sure what kind of removal to work in MD and SB vs. Naya. 1 for 1 removal might not do it. I'm also thinking about Abyssal Persecutors vs. Naya (and they wouldn't suck vs. U/W and Valakut). The problem is removing them myself. So far only Jace bounces them - maybe some Consuming vapors?
For attacking Naya's mana dorks I thought about royal assassin - but would that be fodder to sparkmages? Maybe Marsh casualties? Deatmark, though 1 for 1, might be ok vs. all three decks.
You're getting rolled by Naya because you're playing black instead of white. Anything white can single out a Vengevine with will keep it out of the graveyard, and Baneslayer remains the most efficient defense against it. That being said, if you're intent on running the worst color in the format, I'd go ahead and suggest running Deathmarks and Leylines of the Void to deal with Naya, but black is crippled by a lack of mass removal and its spot removal is entirely outclassed in this metagame.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
I keep asking: is it illegal for me to post my deck here? If I wanted to get more specific help would I need to restard a new thread in decks section?
At least that's my understanding of the rules here - I could be completely off.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
So here it is: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5697615#post5697615
Until I get word from a mod, I am gonna go with my gut that says "general" card and overall deck discussion here. But anything specific about individual decks goes there.
Sigged. =P
As for running aggro, it pretty much can beat control. You just have to beat the day of judgment. So the key to running aggro is winning turn 3-6. Mono Green Aggro, or RDW can both do that.
Either that, or I think Conscription has some pretty good matchups there. Minus Valakut, but you can sideboard in answers to that.
GGGMGAGGG
RRRRed AffinityRRR
RGShamansGR
BWB/W ControlWB
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Heartless Hidetsugu
Cromat
Nicol Bolas
Sapling of Colfenor
Mayael the Anima
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I wouldnt take a 1 tournament sample size to say vamps can consistently beat those decks.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
1 is better than 0 at that point.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Currently Playing:
UW UW Control
WR Tempered Steel
GR Valakut Ramp
G Elves
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary