I've got to agree, Pyroclasm sounds really terrible in this meta. what does it do for you that EQ doesn't?
Exactly...
And since SOME of us are considering cutting EQ, I can't imagine that Pyroclasm is the replacement we move to... not in a long shot!
Because Vapors is pretty powerful on its own, its even more powerful when we have INSTANT speed removal and board sweep, ways of keeping their board clear so that our following turn we cast a Vapors, kills a remaining bigger threat, and in a sense SILENCES your op's Turn from casting other big threats.
I think the EQ spot deserves to be tested with Comet Storm instead personally...
Its INSTANT speed, sure its kinda like a Uber Spot removal card, but with the amount of other removal we run, chances are there'll be 1 maybe 2 creatures on the board that are going to be worth Vaporing. So it'll make it better.
Plus Comet Storm can deal damage to a Planeswalker.
So I am jumping on the Comet Storm bandwaggon... IF, and I say again IF, EQ gets cut, I think Comet Storm is the card that replaces it.
Surely not Pyroclasm... If it were a toss up between Clasm and EQ, I'd be running EQ. Sure Pyroclasm deals 2 damage to fliers too, but with the other removal options we have, you spot remove the fliers, and wipe the rest with better powerful cards like EQ/Meek and Comet Storm can be a suedo sweeper.
I think the EQ spot deserves to be tested with Comet Storm instead personally...
Its INSTANT speed, sure its kinda like a Uber Spot removal card, but with the amount of other removal we run, chances are there'll be 1 maybe 2 creatures on the board that are going to be worth Vaporing. So it'll make it better.
Plus Comet Storm can deal damage to a Planeswalker.
So I am jumping on the Comet Storm bandwaggon... IF, and I say again IF, EQ gets cut, I think Comet Storm is the card that replaces it.
Yes, join me on the wagon. We have cake.
Pyroclasm seems horrendous. I'm not entirely sure why you would ever play it, actually. If you want a two damage sweeper that can catch spawn or WW or whatev, Volcanic Fallout seems better.
But Comet Storm seems best.
Private Mod Note
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THE THOUGHTHAMMER HAS SPOKEN!
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Pyroclasm seems horrendous. I'm not entirely sure why you would ever play it, actually. If you want a two damage sweeper that can catch spawn or WW or whatev, Volcanic Fallout seems better.
But Comet Storm seems best.
Isn't Comet Storm an extremely inefficient sweeper when compared to EQ though?
To do 4 dmg to 4 targets you have to pay 2 for the activation, 4 for the X dmg, and another 3 for the kicker, so thats 9 mana in total.
Whereas with EQ you just pay 5, granted it doesn't hit fliers.
Isn't Comet Storm an extremely inefficient sweeper when compared to EQ though?
To do 4 dmg to 4 targets you have to pay 2 for the activation, 4 for the X dmg, and another 3 for the kicker, so thats 9 mana in total.
Whereas with EQ you just pay 5, granted it doesn't hit fliers.
See thats where people are not thinking a little outside the box.
With Consume the Meek - Instant / Sweeps 3CMC or lower
I personally don't think we need another BIG sweeper like EQ.
And with Comet Storm, it is essentially a sweeper, but on a smaller scale because it requires a bit more to pump and directing it.
Think of it this way, you Lightning Bolt/Terminate most of the stuff. They start dropping little things, you MEEK them at the EOT. Then you Vapors preventing them from casting any bigs possibly killing 1 big.
But then they drop Malakir, or Baneslayer. Comet Storm the way I see it is more of a sweeper in the sense of knocking out 2 creatures with 1 spell. I'd rather kill 5+ small creatures with MEEK, but its certainly possible to kill say 2 Malakir Bloodwitches with Comet Storm.
2 Red to activate, pay 4 more, then 2 to direct it to 2 Malakirs. Deals 4 to each for 8 mana.
I don't know if I explained it very well, but instead of thinking in terms of a board sweeper, think of it as a big burst to 1 or maybe 2 creatures, Possibly 3... but beyond that, you've probably already lost.
It has the capability to say killing a bigger creature, and paying 1 more to direct the same damage to a Player/Planeswalker.
I'm digging it...
EDIT: To take that a step further, Comet Storm is instant.
To fully utilize the power of VAPORS, it needs backed up by good INSTANT speed removal IMHO.
Terminating and Lightning Bolting earlier threats = Good
Consuming the Meek at end of your OPs Turn to wipe the board of Tokens/Small creatures = Great
Comet Storming 1 Broodmate or clearing the board of Thrinax tokens leaving just the Broodmate = Great
Following up all said scenarios with a Consuming Vapors on your following turn at SORCERY speed is = PRICELESS!
You've cleared their board with Instant speed removal, setting up the Turn 6 Vapors, gaining maybe a lil life, Silencing them on their following turn from casting more creatures due to the awaiting REBOUND.
Then you Cruel, and probably force them to DISCARD the creature they WOULD of cast.
See thats where people are not thinking a little outside the box.
With Consume the Meek - Instant / Sweeps 3CMC or lower
I personally don't think we need another BIG sweeper like EQ.
And with Comet Storm, it is essentially a sweeper, but on a smaller scale because it requires a bit more to pump and directing it.
Think of it this way, you Lightning Bolt/Terminate most of the stuff. They start dropping little things, you MEEK them at the EOT. Then you Vapors preventing them from casting any bigs possibly killing 1 big.
But then they drop Malakir, or Baneslayer. Comet Storm the way I see it is more of a sweeper in the sense of knocking out 2 creatures with 1 spell. I'd rather kill 5+ small creatures with MEEK, but its certainly possible to kill say 2 Malakir Bloodwitches with Comet Storm.
2 Red to activate, pay 4 more, then 2 to direct it to 2 Malakirs. Deals 4 to each for 8 mana.
I don't know if I explained it very well, but instead of thinking in terms of a board sweeper, think of it as a big burst to 1 or maybe 2 creatures, Possibly 3... but beyond that, you've probably already lost.
It has the capability to say killing a bigger creature, and paying 1 more to direct the same damage to a Player/Planeswalker.
I'm digging it...
I definitely see your point, but I have to ask, how often are you really sitting on 8 mana with your opponent having that type of board position?
This deck is not hurting for high cc cards, and Comet storm will just sit in your hand until you have a decent bit of mana available.
I can't personally comment on the interaction with Consume the Meek because I think this card is extremely overrated (I know I'm gonna catch hate for this )
I've had extremely lackluster results with the card, at 5 mana its pretty slow, especially when you're on the play, and it leaves a lot of important creatures alive against U/W, Bant, and Jund which are arguably the top tier decks right now.
I have to ask, how often are you really sitting on 8 mana with your opponent having that type of board position?
Exactly! More often then not without EQ or Comet Storm, our current removal package is able to keep a board pretty clear when its time to Cruel on Turn 7 having only 7 mana.
So the scenarios I gave are obviously worst case scenarios, having 8 mana up to kill something like 2 Malakir Bloodwitches when you could pay 4 and just Terminate them both. Highly unlikely in either case!
The point I really was trying to make is the effectiveness of INSTANT speed removal, and the flexibility of the Instant Speed Comet Storm type removal being able to kill multiple creatures, making your Consuming Vapors that much more of a bomb removal option when cast on YOUR turn. Vapors really shines when you have ways of effectively killing off a chunk of creatures with just 1 card.
Wiping the board of tokens so you can hit the likes of a Baneslaker with Vapors is pretty damn nice. Both board wipes can be accomplished with Meek/Storm/EQ, but Storm also has the ability of being pumped high enough to kill a Baneslayer by itself if say you're not holding a Terminate or Vapors. Where as EQ can't touch Baneslayer, much less you'd really want to pump it that high taking that kind of damage.
Exactly! More often then not without EQ or Comet Storm, our current removal package is able to keep a board pretty clear when its time to Cruel on Turn 7 having only 7 mana.
So the scenarios I gave are obviously worst case scenarios, having 8 mana up to kill something like 2 Malakir Bloodwitches when you could pay 4 and just Terminate them both. Highly unlikely in either case!
The point I really was trying to make is the effectiveness of INSTANT speed removal, and the flexibility of the Instant Speed Comet Storm type removal being able to kill multiple creatures, making your Consuming Vapors that much more of a bomb removal option. Vapors really shines when you have ways of effectively killing off a chunk of creatures with just 1 card.
Wiping the board of tokens so you can hit the likes of a Baneslaker with Vapors is pretty damn nice. Both board wipes can be accomplished with Meek/Storm/EQ, but Storm also has the ability of being pumped high enough to kill a Baneslayer by itself if say you're not holding a Terminate or Vapors. Where as EQ can't touch Baneslayer, much less you'd really want to pump it that high taking that kind of damage.
I guess the only thing to do now is test keep me informed of how Comet Storm works for you, as I'm always open to giving a card a try.
Afterall, we all have the same goal of making the deck tier 1 if humanly possible, so best of luck!
Now before you all go towards flaming me on Sorin and Bolas, lemme explain.
Ok.. I don't have a really god explanation outside the fact that I just wanna play those guys. If I were taking this to a real competitive tournament, I'd probably go up to 4 Jaces and the third Double Negative over the other 2 planeswalkers. That being said, I just wanna play them on Gameday this weekend.
Ok.. I don't have a really god explanation outside the fact that I just wanna play those guys. If I were taking this to a real competitive tournament, I'd probably go up to 4 Jaces and the third Double Negative over the other 2 planeswalkers. That being said, I just wanna play them on Gameday this weekend.
Any tips?
lol I appreciate the honesty and wish you the best of luck! Can't really tell someone to do something different when they already know the answer/right thing, but just want to play those cards that would be in question.
Personally, I wouldn't mind dropping in Nicol Bolas just because I wanna play him too. I think i'd be hella fun, since I wasn't playing at the time he came onto the scene, was still in my hiatus lil step away from the game.
But with that being said...
Sorin is actually a solid play regardless if you're just running him to run him. Once you get over the desire to just play Nicol Bolas, I'd cut him and add a 4th Jace if you have it, or a 4th Terminate.
Your draw engine is much like another guy that just posted his list. No real true Draw only cards, just some cantrips, Jace, and then of course Cruel. Although I admit, I haven't tried this as the only draw engine, so I wouldn't know if its sufficient enough, but I would be leary of running just that as your draw engine. I can see things causing some problems if they figure out away to neutralize Jace, which kills the biggest and practically your only part of your draw engine. Cantriping is nice, but just don't think its strong enough of a draw engine to not run something like Capsules/Divination along side it. But thats just me...
According to the other guy it works just fine, and between you and him, your lists look pretty solid, and would have the opinion and trust that you both know what you're talking about.
I really really like the Mnemonic Wall discussion thats been tossed about. Seems like it could be pretty decent of a play! I would only run 1 or at most 2... So let us know on a tournament scene how it turns out for you.
But other then those few itty bitty nit picking things... Your list and Lawfuls looks solid, wish you the best of luck. And have fun!
I just picked up the last few cards to finish off my changes to my list for tomorrows FNM. I'm pretty excited about it, since in testing these lists of the new grixis seem to be running much more solid!
Hopefully we get back on the COMPETITIVE thread real soon!
AHH, forgot too, I still have yet to settle on a few of my SB options... Will be at it all day before the FNM tomorrow figuring it out.
I think this is what I am gonna roll with... slightly unsure about some of it. My shop is pretty heavy aggro, and I think the MB deals with that pretty darn well.
The matchups my Grixis decks were struggling with were Control.
So I bring in Duress, Negates, and Haunting Echoes.
Incidentally Haunting Echoes works pretty good VS Jund/RDW/Dredge as well. But those decks that run lots of regular spells IE: Counters, Haunting Echoes can also wreck them if it resolves.
People run Suffer the Past, but I think in our deck Haunting Echoes is the better GY hate card.
I tend to agree that the card draw is a bit of an issue. I definitely like see beyond over divination as it allows you to shuffle away that bad consume the meek or consuming vapors, etc... I may cut a 4th vapors for a third see beyond, but that is yet to be seen (see what I did there?). Or just cut Bolas entirely and go with the 4th Jace. But I really wanna just resolve Bolas.
I'm very pleased with the Wall and playing 2 was pretty awkward at times. It's mainly there to be Crueled into.
My sideboard is somewhat awkward but it's a work in progress. Gameday is just a chance for me to test against all the Polymorph decks I expect and whatever else.
I'm interested in playing this deck in the upcoming couple of tournaments. Which list would everyone suggest as far as being the most tuned/tested?
I don't know as to how "tuned" decks are going to be but I can say with some certainty that there are a few universal must includes:
3-4 Jace
2-4 Terminate
4 Bolt
2-4 Consuming Vapors
0-3 Consume the Meek/0-3 Earthquake or a mixture thereof
3 Cruels
4 Spreading Seas
and the rest of the spells are usually things like Double Negative, Into the Roil, See Beyond, Divination, Negate, Deprive (although I don't suggest Deprive since this deck is all about turn 7 Cruel), Mnemonic Wall, etc..
26-30 lands
Sideboard is really where most of the variation occurs. I am not a fan of Duress, never have been. I'm much more a fan of Negates. Ruinblasters are somewhat standard as a hurt Jund's mana base more + it's good against U/W's mana. Lots of choices.
so by the by i have cut spreading seas from m deck and never looked back. i mean it isn't bad, but i just don't think a draw a card for two with no chance of hitting more is worth it. and the mana screw doe'snt occur enough to warrant it to me. maybe im just playing against a lot of decks where it isn't good but yeah. my draw cards are 4 see beyond and 2 TH, but if i put spreading seas i would take out TH and 2 see. but i mean i dont know. am i a bad magic player for not running spreading seas?
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
I assume Mind Shatter/Spring was tested along with Chalices in someones build? Did they not work out very well cause of the odd mana costs?
This deck doesn't want mana sources that produce colorless mana. Chalices do nothing to help you cast Cruel, Terminate, Double Negative, etc... Pretty much just a waste of space. Cruel is basically Mind Spring + Mind Shatter.
@Magog
This deck needs time to setup and your Spreading Seas provide that time. Yes there is removal to be spent but that's 1 for 1. Spreading Seas can sometimes just win you games because you shut them off key mana and then get to your big spells before they rip out of mana hose. I can't see cutting them, especially with all the man lands out there.
I don't know as to how "tuned" decks are going to be but I can say with some certainty that there are a few universal must includes:
3-4 Jace
2-4 Terminate
4 Bolt
2-4 Consuming Vapors
0-3 Consume the Meek/0-3 Earthquake or a mixture thereof
3 Cruels
4 Spreading Seas
and the rest of the spells are usually things like Double Negative, Into the Roil, See Beyond, Divination, Negate, Deprive (although I don't suggest Deprive since this deck is all about turn 7 Cruel), Mnemonic Wall, etc..
26-30 lands
The only real thing I would disagree with here is Jaces. I've tested several builds with minor variations and found that Jace is pretty useful, but not a must include. One of the glaring weaknesses of Jace in alot of builds is that we have trouble protecting him.
I'm actually cutting Jace for FNM this time to test it out. After switching to the counter-light build, Jace is essentially what Baneslayer is to me in UW builds. A very fragile win-con that is played with a prayer for the opponent to have nothing.
In a build with more counterspells than my maindeck 3 Double Negatives, and perhaps Mnemonic Walls or Turtles, Jace is much better. But I was disappointed in testing him with the counter-light build, particularly against Jund and Allies.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
THE THOUGHTHAMMER HAS SPOKEN!
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
I have been playing UW control since WW, but was a big fan of Grixis before that. My biggest problem with Grixis was life gain/loss. Losing life to EQ and not getting anything back. Now that Consume The Meek and Consuming Vapors has been printed, I am switching back, and I need some ideas.
I am really looking forward to using Jace as a hate machine instead of the win con he was in my UW deck. In this deck I dont have to worry about getting him to 12 counters, I can simple use his Unsummon and Brainstorm as I like.
I am torn on See Beyond though. Running 27 lands, I was thinking if Treasure Hunt might be better?
My meta has some control in it, so I do need Negate mainboard imo.
Couple of things that I am a bit torn on before I do my tourny and need to make a decision: 1) x1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Is it really worth it at x1? I plan on buying another, but for now at only x1, just don't see him enough for me to feel that its worth it. Maybe add a 4th See Beyond or a 4th Terminate, or a 3rd Consume the Meek in its place... OR a 3rd Into the Roil?
2) The Sideboard: I feel its a good well rounded sideboard, but unsure... I feel the MD is stacked VS Creature strategies, so I felt that in the SB needed to shore up the Control matchups a bit better.
I'm gonna try Comet Storm tonight and see how it goes...
Other then that, I am comfortable with this list and think its solid...
HELP on those 2 things would be greatly appreciated?
I have been playing UW control since WW, but was a big fan of Grixis before that. My biggest problem with Grixis was life gain/loss. Losing life to EQ and not getting anything back. Now that Consume The Meek and Consuming Vapors has been printed, I am switching back, and I need some ideas.
I am really looking forward to using Jace as a hate machine instead of the win con he was in my UW deck. In this deck I dont have to worry about getting him to 12 counters, I can simple use his Unsummon and Brainstorm as I like.
I am torn on See Beyond though. Running 27 lands, I was thinking if Treasure Hunt might be better?
My meta has some control in it, so I do need Negate mainboard imo.
I'm a big fan of brainstorming 2 lands back to the top of your lib and treasuring hunting for at least 3. I guess See Beyond shuffles your library which is helpful when the top three of your deck gets stale though.
UBRGrixis Control
Exactly...
And since SOME of us are considering cutting EQ, I can't imagine that Pyroclasm is the replacement we move to... not in a long shot!
Because Vapors is pretty powerful on its own, its even more powerful when we have INSTANT speed removal and board sweep, ways of keeping their board clear so that our following turn we cast a Vapors, kills a remaining bigger threat, and in a sense SILENCES your op's Turn from casting other big threats.
I think the EQ spot deserves to be tested with Comet Storm instead personally...
Its INSTANT speed, sure its kinda like a Uber Spot removal card, but with the amount of other removal we run, chances are there'll be 1 maybe 2 creatures on the board that are going to be worth Vaporing. So it'll make it better.
Plus Comet Storm can deal damage to a Planeswalker.
So I am jumping on the Comet Storm bandwaggon... IF, and I say again IF, EQ gets cut, I think Comet Storm is the card that replaces it.
Surely not Pyroclasm... If it were a toss up between Clasm and EQ, I'd be running EQ. Sure Pyroclasm deals 2 damage to fliers too, but with the other removal options we have, you spot remove the fliers, and wipe the rest with better powerful cards like EQ/Meek and Comet Storm can be a suedo sweeper.
.02
Yes, join me on the wagon. We have cake.
Pyroclasm seems horrendous. I'm not entirely sure why you would ever play it, actually. If you want a two damage sweeper that can catch spawn or WW or whatev, Volcanic Fallout seems better.
But Comet Storm seems best.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Isn't Comet Storm an extremely inefficient sweeper when compared to EQ though?
To do 4 dmg to 4 targets you have to pay 2 for the activation, 4 for the X dmg, and another 3 for the kicker, so thats 9 mana in total.
Whereas with EQ you just pay 5, granted it doesn't hit fliers.
UBRGrixis Control
See thats where people are not thinking a little outside the box.
With Consume the Meek - Instant / Sweeps 3CMC or lower
I personally don't think we need another BIG sweeper like EQ.
And with Comet Storm, it is essentially a sweeper, but on a smaller scale because it requires a bit more to pump and directing it.
Think of it this way, you Lightning Bolt/Terminate most of the stuff. They start dropping little things, you MEEK them at the EOT. Then you Vapors preventing them from casting any bigs possibly killing 1 big.
But then they drop Malakir, or Baneslayer. Comet Storm the way I see it is more of a sweeper in the sense of knocking out 2 creatures with 1 spell. I'd rather kill 5+ small creatures with MEEK, but its certainly possible to kill say 2 Malakir Bloodwitches with Comet Storm.
2 Red to activate, pay 4 more, then 2 to direct it to 2 Malakirs. Deals 4 to each for 8 mana.
I don't know if I explained it very well, but instead of thinking in terms of a board sweeper, think of it as a big burst to 1 or maybe 2 creatures, Possibly 3... but beyond that, you've probably already lost.
It has the capability to say killing a bigger creature, and paying 1 more to direct the same damage to a Player/Planeswalker.
I'm digging it...
EDIT: To take that a step further, Comet Storm is instant.
To fully utilize the power of VAPORS, it needs backed up by good INSTANT speed removal IMHO.
Terminating and Lightning Bolting earlier threats = Good
Consuming the Meek at end of your OPs Turn to wipe the board of Tokens/Small creatures = Great
Comet Storming 1 Broodmate or clearing the board of Thrinax tokens leaving just the Broodmate = Great
Following up all said scenarios with a Consuming Vapors on your following turn at SORCERY speed is = PRICELESS!
You've cleared their board with Instant speed removal, setting up the Turn 6 Vapors, gaining maybe a lil life, Silencing them on their following turn from casting more creatures due to the awaiting REBOUND.
Then you Cruel, and probably force them to DISCARD the creature they WOULD of cast.
I definitely see your point, but I have to ask, how often are you really sitting on 8 mana with your opponent having that type of board position?
This deck is not hurting for high cc cards, and Comet storm will just sit in your hand until you have a decent bit of mana available.
I can't personally comment on the interaction with Consume the Meek because I think this card is extremely overrated (I know I'm gonna catch hate for this )
I've had extremely lackluster results with the card, at 5 mana its pretty slow, especially when you're on the play, and it leaves a lot of important creatures alive against U/W, Bant, and Jund which are arguably the top tier decks right now.
UBRGrixis Control
Exactly! More often then not without EQ or Comet Storm, our current removal package is able to keep a board pretty clear when its time to Cruel on Turn 7 having only 7 mana.
So the scenarios I gave are obviously worst case scenarios, having 8 mana up to kill something like 2 Malakir Bloodwitches when you could pay 4 and just Terminate them both. Highly unlikely in either case!
The point I really was trying to make is the effectiveness of INSTANT speed removal, and the flexibility of the Instant Speed Comet Storm type removal being able to kill multiple creatures, making your Consuming Vapors that much more of a bomb removal option when cast on YOUR turn. Vapors really shines when you have ways of effectively killing off a chunk of creatures with just 1 card.
Wiping the board of tokens so you can hit the likes of a Baneslaker with Vapors is pretty damn nice. Both board wipes can be accomplished with Meek/Storm/EQ, but Storm also has the ability of being pumped high enough to kill a Baneslayer by itself if say you're not holding a Terminate or Vapors. Where as EQ can't touch Baneslayer, much less you'd really want to pump it that high taking that kind of damage.
I guess the only thing to do now is test keep me informed of how Comet Storm works for you, as I'm always open to giving a card a try.
Afterall, we all have the same goal of making the deck tier 1 if humanly possible, so best of luck!
UBRGrixis Control
4 Consuming Vapors
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Double Negative
2 Into the Roil
2 See Beyond
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spreading Seas
3 Terminate
3 Consume the Meek
Planeswalkers - 5
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin Markov
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Mnemonic Wall
Manabase - 27
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 All is Dust
1 Liliana Vess
1 Earthquake
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Telemin Performance
2 Flashfreeze
3 Negate
3 Goblin Ruinblaster
Now before you all go towards flaming me on Sorin and Bolas, lemme explain.
Ok.. I don't have a really god explanation outside the fact that I just wanna play those guys. If I were taking this to a real competitive tournament, I'd probably go up to 4 Jaces and the third Double Negative over the other 2 planeswalkers. That being said, I just wanna play them on Gameday this weekend.
Any tips?
lol I appreciate the honesty and wish you the best of luck! Can't really tell someone to do something different when they already know the answer/right thing, but just want to play those cards that would be in question.
Personally, I wouldn't mind dropping in Nicol Bolas just because I wanna play him too. I think i'd be hella fun, since I wasn't playing at the time he came onto the scene, was still in my hiatus lil step away from the game.
But with that being said...
Sorin is actually a solid play regardless if you're just running him to run him. Once you get over the desire to just play Nicol Bolas, I'd cut him and add a 4th Jace if you have it, or a 4th Terminate.
Your draw engine is much like another guy that just posted his list. No real true Draw only cards, just some cantrips, Jace, and then of course Cruel. Although I admit, I haven't tried this as the only draw engine, so I wouldn't know if its sufficient enough, but I would be leary of running just that as your draw engine. I can see things causing some problems if they figure out away to neutralize Jace, which kills the biggest and practically your only part of your draw engine. Cantriping is nice, but just don't think its strong enough of a draw engine to not run something like Capsules/Divination along side it. But thats just me...
According to the other guy it works just fine, and between you and him, your lists look pretty solid, and would have the opinion and trust that you both know what you're talking about.
I really really like the Mnemonic Wall discussion thats been tossed about. Seems like it could be pretty decent of a play! I would only run 1 or at most 2... So let us know on a tournament scene how it turns out for you.
But other then those few itty bitty nit picking things... Your list and Lawfuls looks solid, wish you the best of luck. And have fun!
I just picked up the last few cards to finish off my changes to my list for tomorrows FNM. I'm pretty excited about it, since in testing these lists of the new grixis seem to be running much more solid!
Hopefully we get back on the COMPETITIVE thread real soon!
AHH, forgot too, I still have yet to settle on a few of my SB options... Will be at it all day before the FNM tomorrow figuring it out.
4 Duress
2 Negate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Haunting Echoes
I think this is what I am gonna roll with... slightly unsure about some of it. My shop is pretty heavy aggro, and I think the MB deals with that pretty darn well.
The matchups my Grixis decks were struggling with were Control.
So I bring in Duress, Negates, and Haunting Echoes.
Incidentally Haunting Echoes works pretty good VS Jund/RDW/Dredge as well. But those decks that run lots of regular spells IE: Counters, Haunting Echoes can also wreck them if it resolves.
People run Suffer the Past, but I think in our deck Haunting Echoes is the better GY hate card.
I'm very pleased with the Wall and playing 2 was pretty awkward at times. It's mainly there to be Crueled into.
My sideboard is somewhat awkward but it's a work in progress. Gameday is just a chance for me to test against all the Polymorph decks I expect and whatever else.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
360 Peasant Cube!
Custom Cube
RWU Miracles RWU
I don't know as to how "tuned" decks are going to be but I can say with some certainty that there are a few universal must includes:
3-4 Jace
2-4 Terminate
4 Bolt
2-4 Consuming Vapors
0-3 Consume the Meek/0-3 Earthquake or a mixture thereof
3 Cruels
4 Spreading Seas
and the rest of the spells are usually things like Double Negative, Into the Roil, See Beyond, Divination, Negate, Deprive (although I don't suggest Deprive since this deck is all about turn 7 Cruel), Mnemonic Wall, etc..
26-30 lands
Sideboard is really where most of the variation occurs. I am not a fan of Duress, never have been. I'm much more a fan of Negates. Ruinblasters are somewhat standard as a hurt Jund's mana base more + it's good against U/W's mana. Lots of choices.
:symb:Vampires:symb:
:symg:Eldrazi Ramp:symg:
:symw::symu:Control:symu::symw:
:symr:Pure Flame Quest:symr:
:symw:Holy Relic Quest:symw:
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
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This deck doesn't want mana sources that produce colorless mana. Chalices do nothing to help you cast Cruel, Terminate, Double Negative, etc... Pretty much just a waste of space. Cruel is basically Mind Spring + Mind Shatter.
@Magog
This deck needs time to setup and your Spreading Seas provide that time. Yes there is removal to be spent but that's 1 for 1. Spreading Seas can sometimes just win you games because you shut them off key mana and then get to your big spells before they rip out of mana hose. I can't see cutting them, especially with all the man lands out there.
The only real thing I would disagree with here is Jaces. I've tested several builds with minor variations and found that Jace is pretty useful, but not a must include. One of the glaring weaknesses of Jace in alot of builds is that we have trouble protecting him.
I'm actually cutting Jace for FNM this time to test it out. After switching to the counter-light build, Jace is essentially what Baneslayer is to me in UW builds. A very fragile win-con that is played with a prayer for the opponent to have nothing.
In a build with more counterspells than my maindeck 3 Double Negatives, and perhaps Mnemonic Walls or Turtles, Jace is much better. But I was disappointed in testing him with the counter-light build, particularly against Jund and Allies.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
This is what I have considered so far.
3 Sphinx Of Jwar Isle
Planeswalkers(5):
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Sorin Markov
Spells(25):
4 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Consuming Vapors
3 Consume The Meek
4 See Beyond
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Negate
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Laveclaw Reaches
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scaldring Tarn
4 Crumbling Necropolis
2 Mountains
2 Islands
3 Swamps
What do you guys think?
I am really looking forward to using Jace as a hate machine instead of the win con he was in my UW deck. In this deck I dont have to worry about getting him to 12 counters, I can simple use his Unsummon and Brainstorm as I like.
I am torn on See Beyond though. Running 27 lands, I was thinking if Treasure Hunt might be better?
My meta has some control in it, so I do need Negate mainboard imo.
UUBBBRR
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Spells: 26
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
3 Consuming Vapors
2 Consume the Meek
2 Comet Storm
3 See Beyond
2 Into the Roil
Artifacts: 4
4 Courier's Capsule
Planeswalkers: 2
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin Markov
3 Flashfreeze
3 Negate
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Consume the Meek
Couple of things that I am a bit torn on before I do my tourny and need to make a decision:
1) x1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Is it really worth it at x1? I plan on buying another, but for now at only x1, just don't see him enough for me to feel that its worth it. Maybe add a 4th See Beyond or a 4th Terminate, or a 3rd Consume the Meek in its place... OR a 3rd Into the Roil?
2) The Sideboard: I feel its a good well rounded sideboard, but unsure... I feel the MD is stacked VS Creature strategies, so I felt that in the SB needed to shore up the Control matchups a bit better.
I'm gonna try Comet Storm tonight and see how it goes...
Other then that, I am comfortable with this list and think its solid...
HELP on those 2 things would be greatly appreciated?
I'm a big fan of brainstorming 2 lands back to the top of your lib and treasuring hunting for at least 3. I guess See Beyond shuffles your library which is helpful when the top three of your deck gets stale though.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
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fair enough was just checking. Thanks for the input.
UUBBBRR
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Planeswalker:
4 Jace, the Mindsculptor
Spells:
4 Terminate
3 Double Negative
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Consume the Meek
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Treasure Hunt
2 Into the Roil
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Laveclaw Reaches
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scaldring Tarn
4 Crumbling Necropolis
2 Mountains
2 Islands
3 Swamps
This is the version I'm going to start playtesting. Did I overlook anything significant?
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
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