I'd rather play Jace or Elspeth at 4 mana, and a 2/3 body doesn't mean much do this deck. On the other hand, it is a white creature, so it gets around Negate and Flashfreeze, that is probably important.
True, you would rather play a planeswalker, but I think KS is a good sideboard option to counteract hate from pithing needle. People will also be siding in Luminarch ascension for this match up. He also helps against the Turbo-fog time sieve combo deck, and open the vaults.
Pithing Needle is an extremely efficient way to handle planewalkers since a resolved one stops multiples of that walker. Having more ways to deal with that is important. The 2/3 body also gives you something to use with Elspeth, not too important but relevant.
Hey JuJu, I can tell you that I played against bant once in round 8 and again in the first round of top 8. While I have not tested against red, I think it is important that you try post board maybe with a tweaked sideboard since the 8 cards i had to bring in against them might not be the right ones. As far as the bant matchup, I think it is a very hard game to lose. Because of their lack of reach, just make sure you sandbag your ptes until they actually cast sovereigns, then use it on sovereigns when they declare their attack step. Even at 1 life, they have no way to force damage through. It is also nearly impossible for bant to win through any of your planeswalkers, especially elspeth and gideon. As far as spreading seas locking you out of ajani, I strongly disagree with this statement. I was originally running 2 mountains and went down to 1. You never fetch for mountain unless you are casting ajaniV that turn. In addition, a strong player will rarely if ever seas your mountain, because if they still have seas in hand by the time you cast ajani, it is much more important for them to stop the collonade or the tapped tec-edge before eating your red source and praying that you have more ajanis in your hand. For an example of this situation, in the semis, ben stark had the option of spreading seas on my mountain or collonade, but ultimately opted for the collonade, as he couldnt stick any planeswalkers as long as i had collonade advantage on him.
Here is a brief analysis of my experience on Saturday:
Naya is your best matchup.
Bant is your second best matchup.
Then U/W.
Then Jund.
Naya is a midrange deck, and with maindeck walls and planeswalkers, it is inevitable that they overextend, at which point you will catch them with a wrath. Bant has no reach and uses creatures as a wincondition. The difference is, they use exalted, so they cannot win through an elspeth, a path, a gideon, or basically anything you play. I played against U/W once during the day, but Ben Stark played against it 4 times during the swiss, crushing it every time. In fact, Ben and I were the two undefeateds @ 8-0 at the end of round 8, but he only lost 1 GAME (0 matches) before top 8, and it was to vampires. If anyone is curious, the decks I played against were as follows:
R1: Naya
R2: Naya
R3: U/W
R4: Jund (Christian Valenti, grats on your finish on Sunday btw!)
R5: Monument aggro
R6: Jund
R7: Allies
R8: Bant
R9: ID with BenS
R10: ID with Tanner
Top 8
R1: Bant
R2: Mirror
R3: Jund
I hope what I've said has been constructive in some way and if you have any questions or comments for me just say the word and I'm happy to help where I can
Thanks for your reply. Seeing your match-ups throughout the day is also extremely helpful. While I absolutely adore Angelfire (the colors) and have been trying to make it work competitively since last year, I believe I'll be sticking with UW for a bit longer as it more matches my current playstyle.
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Hey Lewis, I know a lot of people have been asking ya questions, so I'll keep this one short n sweet.
During coverage on the deck with GG's Live you mentioned possibly re-introducing Baneslayer to the deck. If this were to be added to the side, what would you consider cutting for them? Or, are you considering adding them to the main deck? I know mono red could be an issue if they go more burn based, since our walls don't really stop that. Ajani's lifegain is nice, but 4 mana for 3 life just seems a bit underwhelming.
Congrats again on the win. Looking forward to hearing you or Ben fleshing out your thoughts on the deck following the tournament in a write up somewhere.
how bout putting a 4th ajani and a 2nd mountain in the side? now that people have seen this, it seems like lots of people will play it, and the 2nd mountain might be key in a mirror.. also ajani is simply better then jace vs. jund.
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I was curious about your choice for Divination...
I've been playing this deck for the past 2 weeks, but I've been playing Everflowing chalice and Mind Spring instead of Divination and Main deck seas.
I can see the main deck sea's being solid, but did you test chalice/spring if so what pushed you toward divination?
I was curious about your choice for Divination...
I've been playing this deck for the past 2 weeks, but I've been playing Everflowing chalice and Mind Spring instead of Divination and Main deck seas.
I can see the main deck sea's being solid, but did you test chalice/spring if so what pushed you toward divination?
only t3 play in the deck is divination or o ring (other than late t2 plays) and it's better then see beyond imo
@maxmaceacharn – What planeswalker you play will always depend on their board, their cards in hand, your cards in hand, and what you are trying to accomplish. For instance, against allies, my lifetotal was somewhere between 12 and 15, and he had a 3/4, a 4/4, and another creature in play. It was my turn and I had 2 wall of omens in play and 5 mana. I had Jace, Gideon, path, day of judgment, and other goodies in my hand. He had 4 mana and 5 cards in hand, but had missed land drops. I needed to capitalize on my wrath since he had a nearly full grip, so I cast Jace, brainstormed, and passed the turn. He cast a bloodbraid into another ally and sent the 3/2, 4/5, and something else at jace and the 5/5 at me. I elected to take 5, going under 10, pathing one of the creatures coming at jace and sacking both of my wall of omens to protect jace. I untapped into a day of judgment, then Gideon the next turn. I think many people would have wrathed or played Gideon when the opponent had more creatures than me, but my goal was to have an advantageous board position coming out of the wrath, so I played it differently. In short, it’s hard to say if there is ever a “right” planeswalker to play first.
@Sevenfire – Yes! I absolutely had games where I manascrewed my opponents out of the game. I think pithing needle is a very narrow card and am not super worried about it, but it is definitely annoying at the least.
@midgard serpent – I originally had baneslayers in the main, but I found myself just tapping out and crossing my fingers too often, and Ben convinced me that cutting them was the right play. They are definitely playable in the sideboard, but I don’t know what I’d cut for them.
@Secularon – Funny story, I did play against 1 Warp World deck at 4-0. He killed me game one with a quick hand and an eldrazi monument, but between Jace and the other cards in his deck, I didn’t have the misfortune of having to watch my permanents get shuffled into my deck in game 2 or 3.
@WowBrandon – I did consider chalice/spring, but the deck lacks turn 3 plays, and with divination and jace, you rarely have 0 cards in hand. Moreover, after resolving a mind spring, it’s unlikely that you’ll be playing out multiple planeswalkers in the same turn.
With Chalice all of your 4 drops become turn 3 plays.
That's gravy and all, but (correct me if I'm wrong) that's not what the deck really wants to do.
The whole reason that Baneslayer isn't necessary in the first place is that Wall of Omens stems the bleeding from a lot of the early damage one would encounter, and Baneslayer was mostly used to get it back so you weren't in "reach".
Playing a chalice turn 2 seems sick, but if you're on the draw and are taking Putrid Leach to the dome (while you build up 1 colorless), that's up to 8 life you're losing at the cost of getting a 'walker out a turn early.
That might not be the best example, but it's just that you have so many good cards that can effect the game even on t2-t3 (Seas, PtE, O-Ring, WoE), that you don't need another job to do that's usually not going to do anything more than run a Planeswalker into a Leech or something to that extent.
With Chalice all of your 4 drops become turn 3 plays.
That means your doing nothing on turn 2 except playing chalice, which is bad if they had a quick start. Wall of Omens is much better to play turn 2.
Chalice is much better in a Chapin-stlye control build. Then you can play it turn 3 while still keeping counter mana available, Essence scatter or negate.
Have you consider to splash Black instead of Red mainly for EsperCharm maind deck (and a bunch of SB cards?).
Of course you would lose Ajani V, but with the lack of good 3 drops, was that an option you considered?
That's getting a bit too greedy. My testing buddy suggested toying around with the manabase enough to support one black and one red to accomodate Charm and Ajani V. I'll have to test it, but my gut instinct tells me the manabase would be far too inconsistent, and running Tec Edge would be out of the question.
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That's getting a bit too greedy. My testing buddy suggested toying around with the manabase enough to support one black and one red to accomodate Charm and Ajani V. I'll have to test it, but my gut instinct tells me the manabase would be far too inconsistent, and running Tec Edge would be out of the question.
He said black instead of red. Not in addition to. I think thats a viable option, didn't you make the other thread about UWb?
I know this is a stupid question but I'm wondering what the deck's weakness might be? I know Plannar Cleansing wipes it, though rarely seen. O-Rings and Pithing Needle get's seen a lot though.
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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.
I am playing your same main, except -1 Plains +1 Divination (cause I'm bad, but I think I'll get away with it) and -1 Path +1 DoJ (my meta has a lot more Eldrazi Green, white weenie, Allies, etc).
This is what I am trying for the SB:
1 Path
3 Flashfreeze
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Mind Control
4 Negate
1 Iona
BSAs are SB because I figure that people will start playing things like Pithing Needle to try to handle the PWs. Then the SB BSAs give them something else they need to defend against.
Mind Controls are for Bloodwitch, because they are really annoying. Might not be needed, though.
Extra Path is for matches I need it, like Bant.
Iona is for pretty much any control deck, Turbo Fog, and Open the Vaults.
Thoughts? I kinda like Kor Sanctifiers in the board.
I know this is a stupid question but I'm wondering what the deck's weakness might be? I know Plannar Cleansing wipes it, though rarely seen. O-Rings and Pithing Needle get's seen a lot though.
It seems to have one weakness: misplays. Other than that there is no one card that hoses it that anyone is going to main deck. If anything, people may start running All is Dust or Planar Cleansing in the board, in which case the Negates would come in. Like Lewis said, Pithing Needle is a bit too narrow to have much of a lasting effect and is weak to Oblivion Ring. Needle is not the answer for this deck.
I've played probably 20-30 games against it and with it since Saturday night and for the life of me can't figure out a true weakness. It's a very solid deck.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Of course, I can't see this kind of deck being able to beat RDW or Jund, so even if it does beat American Gladiators it doesn't matter much
As for the above list with no draw and counters, I think Double Negative would be better in the board; you don't want to pop a mountain out against blue unless you're casting Ajani that turn (which makes the DN a dead card until then)
True, you would rather play a planeswalker, but I think KS is a good sideboard option to counteract hate from pithing needle. People will also be siding in Luminarch ascension for this match up. He also helps against the Turbo-fog time sieve combo deck, and open the vaults.
Pithing Needle is an extremely efficient way to handle planewalkers since a resolved one stops multiples of that walker. Having more ways to deal with that is important. The 2/3 body also gives you something to use with Elspeth, not too important but relevant.
Thanks for your reply. Seeing your match-ups throughout the day is also extremely helpful. While I absolutely adore Angelfire (the colors) and have been trying to make it work competitively since last year, I believe I'll be sticking with UW for a bit longer as it more matches my current playstyle.
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Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
During coverage on the deck with GG's Live you mentioned possibly re-introducing Baneslayer to the deck. If this were to be added to the side, what would you consider cutting for them? Or, are you considering adding them to the main deck? I know mono red could be an issue if they go more burn based, since our walls don't really stop that. Ajani's lifegain is nice, but 4 mana for 3 life just seems a bit underwhelming.
Congrats again on the win. Looking forward to hearing you or Ben fleshing out your thoughts on the deck following the tournament in a write up somewhere.
Good thing you didn't go up against Warp World, especialy U/R Warp World. Negate your Negate?
Lolz.
I was wondering what everyone consider as a weakness for this deck? Would it be O-rings and needles?
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I've been playing this deck for the past 2 weeks, but I've been playing Everflowing chalice and Mind Spring instead of Divination and Main deck seas.
I can see the main deck sea's being solid, but did you test chalice/spring if so what pushed you toward divination?
only t3 play in the deck is divination or o ring (other than late t2 plays) and it's better then see beyond imo
@Sevenfire – Yes! I absolutely had games where I manascrewed my opponents out of the game. I think pithing needle is a very narrow card and am not super worried about it, but it is definitely annoying at the least.
@midgard serpent – I originally had baneslayers in the main, but I found myself just tapping out and crossing my fingers too often, and Ben convinced me that cutting them was the right play. They are definitely playable in the sideboard, but I don’t know what I’d cut for them.
@Secularon – Funny story, I did play against 1 Warp World deck at 4-0. He killed me game one with a quick hand and an eldrazi monument, but between Jace and the other cards in his deck, I didn’t have the misfortune of having to watch my permanents get shuffled into my deck in game 2 or 3.
@WowBrandon – I did consider chalice/spring, but the deck lacks turn 3 plays, and with divination and jace, you rarely have 0 cards in hand. Moreover, after resolving a mind spring, it’s unlikely that you’ll be playing out multiple planeswalkers in the same turn.
That's gravy and all, but (correct me if I'm wrong) that's not what the deck really wants to do.
The whole reason that Baneslayer isn't necessary in the first place is that Wall of Omens stems the bleeding from a lot of the early damage one would encounter, and Baneslayer was mostly used to get it back so you weren't in "reach".
Playing a chalice turn 2 seems sick, but if you're on the draw and are taking Putrid Leach to the dome (while you build up 1 colorless), that's up to 8 life you're losing at the cost of getting a 'walker out a turn early.
That might not be the best example, but it's just that you have so many good cards that can effect the game even on t2-t3 (Seas, PtE, O-Ring, WoE), that you don't need another job to do that's usually not going to do anything more than run a Planeswalker into a Leech or something to that extent.
That means your doing nothing on turn 2 except playing chalice, which is bad if they had a quick start. Wall of Omens is much better to play turn 2.
Chalice is much better in a Chapin-stlye control build. Then you can play it turn 3 while still keeping counter mana available, Essence scatter or negate.
That's getting a bit too greedy. My testing buddy suggested toying around with the manabase enough to support one black and one red to accomodate Charm and Ajani V. I'll have to test it, but my gut instinct tells me the manabase would be far too inconsistent, and running Tec Edge would be out of the question.
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He said black instead of red. Not in addition to. I think thats a viable option, didn't you make the other thread about UWb?
Oh, my mistake, thought he meant black AND red.
But yes, I absolutely feel the black splash is just as powerful if not moreso than the red. See my thread for my comments.
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I am playing your same main, except -1 Plains +1 Divination (cause I'm bad, but I think I'll get away with it) and -1 Path +1 DoJ (my meta has a lot more Eldrazi Green, white weenie, Allies, etc).
This is what I am trying for the SB:
1 Path
3 Flashfreeze
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Mind Control
4 Negate
1 Iona
BSAs are SB because I figure that people will start playing things like Pithing Needle to try to handle the PWs. Then the SB BSAs give them something else they need to defend against.
Mind Controls are for Bloodwitch, because they are really annoying. Might not be needed, though.
Extra Path is for matches I need it, like Bant.
Iona is for pretty much any control deck, Turbo Fog, and Open the Vaults.
Thoughts? I kinda like Kor Sanctifiers in the board.
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It seems to have one weakness: misplays. Other than that there is no one card that hoses it that anyone is going to main deck. If anything, people may start running All is Dust or Planar Cleansing in the board, in which case the Negates would come in. Like Lewis said, Pithing Needle is a bit too narrow to have much of a lasting effect and is weak to Oblivion Ring. Needle is not the answer for this deck.
I've played probably 20-30 games against it and with it since Saturday night and for the life of me can't figure out a true weakness. It's a very solid deck.
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4 Wall of Omens
2 Baneslayer Angel
Plainswalkers 10
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon Jura
4 Spreading Seas
3 Deprive
3 Double Negative
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Path to Exile
3 Day of Judgment
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Celestial Collonade
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plains
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Halimir Depths
Here's what I've been playing with.
No draw, Secularon?
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Of course, I can't see this kind of deck being able to beat RDW or Jund, so even if it does beat American Gladiators it doesn't matter much
As for the above list with no draw and counters, I think Double Negative would be better in the board; you don't want to pop a mountain out against blue unless you're casting Ajani that turn (which makes the DN a dead card until then)
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