I've been coming to the realization that Viridian Emissary is not quite as great as we've been first made it out to be. We are heavily reliant on our 2/1 to die.
This happens about 70% of the time. I am not satisfied relying on this.
The argument is that we want cards helps our linear plan of combo-ing off with Valakut. Even if we're playing the aggro match, even with Slagstorm in the main, often times I find myself hesitating to cast the sweeper immediately because I want to gain value from having the creature block. The 2/1 is actually affecting my overall (already terrible, mind you) ability to make calls.
I'm set on using Sylvan Ranger in my current build. When applied to the above arguments and placing the ranger in situations where I had the emissary, the result was generally the same. The difference was that I had a land in my hand instead, but the advantage was upfront instead of having to wait for the ramp.
To me it seems like your main argument against VE is that it's causing you to make play mistakes. If you make a play mistake, I don't think it's the card's fault. The 2 power is very relevant in the Aggro matchup, as many Aggro creatures like lacerator and goblin guide are x/2, something a ranger can't touch. Also, both VE and SR give you CA, but VE gives you tempo.
I apologize for the abbreviations and such, as I'm typing on an iPod.
I've been coming to the realization that Viridian Emissary is not quite as great as we've been first made it out to be. We are heavily reliant on our 2/1 to die.
This happens about 70% of the time. I am not satisfied relying on this.
The argument is that we want cards helps our linear plan of combo-ing off with Valakut. Even if we're playing the aggro match, even with Slagstorm in the main, often times I find myself hesitating to cast the sweeper immediately because I want to gain value from having the creature block. The 2/1 is actually affecting my overall (already terrible, mind you) ability to make calls.
I'm set on using Sylvan Ranger in my current build. When applied to the above arguments and placing the ranger in situations where I had the emissary, the result was generally the same. The difference was that I had a land in my hand instead, but the advantage was upfront instead of having to wait for the ramp.
leave them both out. Viewing your list take out the ranger and put in another slagstorm.....
BTW how you liking inferno titan? What about the singleton Garden?
I notice that u have 2 slots SB up for grabs. My vote, Tumble magnet. Answers to Demon of death's gate Vs vamps. Answers eldrazi, against the mirror you can keep their titan tapped for 3 turns, they cant steal yours(answers mark of mutiny period whether it be monored goblins or boros). Against Quest decks it keeps them from blowing up your stuff when they nut draw. Answers sword of body and mind. Can slow down elves, tapping archdruid or treespeaker at upkeep, keep blightsteal colossus at bay if someone is terrible enough to play that shape anew deck.
I don't see much use in Ranger. Explore, KHE, and Battlements are better in the 2-drop spot. Emissary is better in its designated matchup as well. I'd much rather have a Cultivate or removal in place of Ranger. The only advantage that Ranger has over other 2-drop ramps is it's not a bad topdeck, but Cultivate is an even better one.
Regarding your list, you have 13 2-drops, 6 true 3-drops, and the 4 Zenith's which I suppose can be considered 3-drops, adding a Cultivate, Avenger, or Trap wouldn't hurt the curve at all.
Perhaps I had not correctly detailed out my situation, but whatever. I'm still trying out Viridian Emissary for now, as the points all of you guys pointed out seems correct.
The misplay factor I was implying came from a comment my friend made after several games of testing. It felt terrible in that one match. -___-
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What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff? Maze's End?
can u pull a t3 titan/Green sun's zenith for 6 with Sylvan Ranger/Viridian Emissary/Overgrown Battlement?
Yeah, because that's all that matters, and because that happens 80% of the time...
In another news, Cobra NEVER gets removed, is the best top-deck ever, never makes your hand bad unless you have the nuts... the cobra is alway money.
Tell me something, how much mana do you have in T3, after I kill your cobra with LB? Not much? At least tell me you ramped your lands... no? Oops... someone just lost the game... but who cares, a long as you win a few games with a Titan in T3.
Sylvan Ranger doesn't ramp. End of Story. It does little more than Khalni Garden except you pay 2. It isn't even close. Where you want Emissary, Emissary is better than the Ranger and everywhere else Lotus Cobra or Battlement is better.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I know I'm going out on line here but I think Viridian Emissary is better than a Lotus Cobra... Cobra needs to SURVIVE to let it do its magic, Emissary on the other hand creates a very tricky situation... Cobra and Battlements are normally killed onsight, however not Emissary... He is a Riddle, wrapped in a Conundrum, covered with layers of Enigmas
After testing (Albeit only 6 rounds against a UB control player and 6 against a Boros Player, more testing needs to be done), I am very impressed by the Emissary. He created a weird scenario where the control player had to toss up between allowing me to ramp ahead or take 2 Damage... All games the little dude got in for 4-8 Damage before the opposing player has had enough and kills him... He keeps Jace's in check and places early pressure on the control player.... Plus its funny when you have 2-3 of these guys out GAME 1 and you cast Pyroclasm, and watch a control deck try and save your creatures...
Against the agro deck is where he truly shines like people before mentioned chump blocking early Aggression and ramping at the same time... What is funnier is if the opponent decides to hold back on attacks to build up a bigger army, Pyroclasm becomes a ramp spell, which always make me LOL...
However I agree he is horrible in the mirror, but it makes my SB a lot easier...
I know I'm going out on line here but I think Viridian Emissary is better than a Lotus Cobra... Cobra needs to SURVIVE to let it do its magic, Emissary on the other hand creates a very tricky situation... Cobra and Battlements are normally killed onsight, however not Emissary... He is a Riddle, wrapped in a Conundrum, covered with layers of Enigmas
Yes, Cobra needs to survive to do its job, just like another creature that has been adopted a bit more en masse - Overgrown Battlement. On the other hand, Emissary needs to die and because you cannot control this, it is not as efficient. It's like Browbeat in a way. Many players look at either option and think it's a win-win. With Emissary you might think if it doesn't die then it gets to keep attacking and getting damage in. You are giving your mirror opponents a free turn, which will probably be the match. You are giving your control opponents more time to stabilize as well.
While it does indeed shine against aggro, the mirror and control matchups are arguably more important. I don't think you should be choosing a 2 mana ramp creature to handle aggro when you already have access to Pyroclasm, Slagstorm, Tumble Magnet, Overgrown Battlement, Obstinate Baloth etc to deal with them. There is too much of the mirror out there for me to be caught dead with such a worthless card MD and the aggro matchups are easily hated out in better ways.
As for Sylvan Ranger, the card is next to worthless in this deck. The card does nothing for us in the mirror, does nothing for us against control, and isn't really good against aggro despite blocking for a turn. What is the point of this card? It doesn't ramp, it doesn't block well, it actually slows us down instead of speeding us up, and it replaces something that actively helps our gameplan.
You should be running Lotus Cobra alongside of Battlement in your other 2 drop slot instead of either Emissary or Ranger. I can see the appeal of Emissary if you have an aggro heavy meta and if you are running MD sweepers, but Cobra is more explosive and proven. Ranger is unplayable for this deck.
Heh, I discussed this same point earlier. Glad someone else has a similar conclusion.
@Deimos, I think you're completely missing the point of Lotus Cobra's advantage, which isn't just a Turn 3 titan.
First off, you can sandbag it, play it and follow it with a fetchland to generate plenty of value from it. Even if it dies, you still get some use, something Battlement itself can't do.
Against a multitude of control decks with very little early turn plays, Cobra is a beater, and draws out removal, and exponentially ramps your mana advantage if it sticks for a while. It's not a great late game topdeck, but with that logic you should cut Khalni Heart Expedition, Battlement, or any other toolbox ramp you might be using.
The whole 'dies to removal' arguement is null, since there are ways to play around it. Not everyone is going to have a Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade in hand and ready when you drop a Cobra Turn 2. Even if it does eat the spell, there's a little thing called 'redudancy' which this deck thrives on. You have the ability to tutor more, or play other ramp spells. It's not like the entire build revolves around one absurd magicalchristmasland play with the Cobra, which is what I think you're getting stuck on.
Cobra is certainly better than Emissary since it doesn't depend on interactivity from your opponent to get value from it.
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Don't let the arguments get you down. Do a little more testing and go with what works best for you. I'm 100 percent behind you actually. With only a single slot going to these cards I like your choice. The chance of having him early to deal with an aggro creature is less than the chance of you dead-drawing him late game. I hate it when I'm at the finish line and my valakuts are cocked and locked and I'm in topdeck mode and I pull a card that can't get me a mountain and finish the game. I'm actually playing more than one and it's happened quite a few times that he fetched me that last land I needed in topdeck mode. It's totally a playstyle choice in my eyes. He realistically can be better in your deck and if you think so don't let yourself get talked out of that.
This happens about 70% of the time. I am not satisfied relying on this.
The argument is that we want cards helps our linear plan of combo-ing off with Valakut. Even if we're playing the aggro match, even with Slagstorm in the main, often times I find myself hesitating to cast the sweeper immediately because I want to gain value from having the creature block. The 2/1 is actually affecting my overall (already terrible, mind you) ability to make calls.
I'm set on using Sylvan Ranger in my current build. When applied to the above arguments and placing the ranger in situations where I had the emissary, the result was generally the same. The difference was that I had a land in my hand instead, but the advantage was upfront instead of having to wait for the ramp.
tl;dr
Sylvan Ranger = instant gratification
Viridian Emissary = investment
Thoughts?
My current list, for reference
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Overgrown Battlement
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Acidic Slime
1 Inferno Titan
4 Khalni Heart Expedition
4 Explore
4 Harrow
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Summoning Trap
2 Slagstorm
1 Khalni Garden
4 Valakut
6 Terramorphic/Evolving
11 Mountain
5 Forest
2 ???
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 Acidic Slime
4 Pyroclasm
1 Slagstorm
3 Summoning Trap
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Obstinate Baloth
What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff?
Maze's End?
Viridian Emissary is great vs aggro, mediocre vs control, and bad in the mirror.
There is no match-up where the ranger is good enough to be in our 75, while the emissary is great vs one important part of the meta.
Simple as that. The ranger was never good in Valakut, nothing changed... GSZ didn't change that either.
I apologize for the abbreviations and such, as I'm typing on an iPod.
leave them both out. Viewing your list take out the ranger and put in another slagstorm.....
BTW how you liking inferno titan? What about the singleton Garden?
I notice that u have 2 slots SB up for grabs. My vote, Tumble magnet. Answers to Demon of death's gate Vs vamps. Answers eldrazi, against the mirror you can keep their titan tapped for 3 turns, they cant steal yours(answers mark of mutiny period whether it be monored goblins or boros). Against Quest decks it keeps them from blowing up your stuff when they nut draw. Answers sword of body and mind. Can slow down elves, tapping archdruid or treespeaker at upkeep, keep blightsteal colossus at bay if someone is terrible enough to play that shape anew deck.
My list for reference:
2 Avenger of Zendikar
4 Primeval Titan
2 oracle of mul daya
4 overgrown embattlement
4 khalni heart expedition
4 explore
4 harrow
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 slagstorm
6 Forest
4 Valakut, the molten Pinnacle
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Terramorphic Expanse
2 verdant catacomb
4 tumble magnet
4 summoning trap
3 Back to Nature
1 Thrun
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 oracle of mul daya
1 Kozilek, the butcher of truth
Regarding your list, you have 13 2-drops, 6 true 3-drops, and the 4 Zenith's which I suppose can be considered 3-drops, adding a Cultivate, Avenger, or Trap wouldn't hurt the curve at all.
The misplay factor I was implying came from a comment my friend made after several games of testing. It felt terrible in that one match. -___-
What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff?
Maze's End?
Who can argue that sound logic...
Me>You
Coke>Pepsi
Messi>Ronaldo
Hope i did it right.
Yeah, because that's all that matters, and because that happens 80% of the time...
In another news, Cobra NEVER gets removed, is the best top-deck ever, never makes your hand bad unless you have the nuts... the cobra is alway money.
Tell me something, how much mana do you have in T3, after I kill your cobra with LB? Not much? At least tell me you ramped your lands... no? Oops... someone just lost the game... but who cares, a long as you win a few games with a Titan in T3.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
After testing (Albeit only 6 rounds against a UB control player and 6 against a Boros Player, more testing needs to be done), I am very impressed by the Emissary. He created a weird scenario where the control player had to toss up between allowing me to ramp ahead or take 2 Damage... All games the little dude got in for 4-8 Damage before the opposing player has had enough and kills him... He keeps Jace's in check and places early pressure on the control player.... Plus its funny when you have 2-3 of these guys out GAME 1 and you cast Pyroclasm, and watch a control deck try and save your creatures...
Against the agro deck is where he truly shines like people before mentioned chump blocking early Aggression and ramping at the same time... What is funnier is if the opponent decides to hold back on attacks to build up a bigger army, Pyroclasm becomes a ramp spell, which always make me LOL...
However I agree he is horrible in the mirror, but it makes my SB a lot easier...
T2
Commander
WGCaptain SisayWG
You're not alone. I've been testing, and I love VE. I just love the fact that it either sticks around to beat face, or it turns into a land.
That said, I'm only keeping it in my sideboard.
Yes, Cobra needs to survive to do its job, just like another creature that has been adopted a bit more en masse - Overgrown Battlement. On the other hand, Emissary needs to die and because you cannot control this, it is not as efficient. It's like Browbeat in a way. Many players look at either option and think it's a win-win. With Emissary you might think if it doesn't die then it gets to keep attacking and getting damage in. You are giving your mirror opponents a free turn, which will probably be the match. You are giving your control opponents more time to stabilize as well.
While it does indeed shine against aggro, the mirror and control matchups are arguably more important. I don't think you should be choosing a 2 mana ramp creature to handle aggro when you already have access to Pyroclasm, Slagstorm, Tumble Magnet, Overgrown Battlement, Obstinate Baloth etc to deal with them. There is too much of the mirror out there for me to be caught dead with such a worthless card MD and the aggro matchups are easily hated out in better ways.
As for Sylvan Ranger, the card is next to worthless in this deck. The card does nothing for us in the mirror, does nothing for us against control, and isn't really good against aggro despite blocking for a turn. What is the point of this card? It doesn't ramp, it doesn't block well, it actually slows us down instead of speeding us up, and it replaces something that actively helps our gameplan.
You should be running Lotus Cobra alongside of Battlement in your other 2 drop slot instead of either Emissary or Ranger. I can see the appeal of Emissary if you have an aggro heavy meta and if you are running MD sweepers, but Cobra is more explosive and proven. Ranger is unplayable for this deck.
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Heh, I discussed this same point earlier. Glad someone else has a similar conclusion.
@Deimos, I think you're completely missing the point of Lotus Cobra's advantage, which isn't just a Turn 3 titan.
First off, you can sandbag it, play it and follow it with a fetchland to generate plenty of value from it. Even if it dies, you still get some use, something Battlement itself can't do.
Against a multitude of control decks with very little early turn plays, Cobra is a beater, and draws out removal, and exponentially ramps your mana advantage if it sticks for a while. It's not a great late game topdeck, but with that logic you should cut Khalni Heart Expedition, Battlement, or any other toolbox ramp you might be using.
The whole 'dies to removal' arguement is null, since there are ways to play around it. Not everyone is going to have a Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade in hand and ready when you drop a Cobra Turn 2. Even if it does eat the spell, there's a little thing called 'redudancy' which this deck thrives on. You have the ability to tutor more, or play other ramp spells. It's not like the entire build revolves around one absurd magicalchristmasland play with the Cobra, which is what I think you're getting stuck on.
Cobra is certainly better than Emissary since it doesn't depend on interactivity from your opponent to get value from it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=489747
I take it you've never been Quested or Sworded?
Rasputin Dreamweaver EDH
believe it or not, I have other cards for those.
I know... shocking.