I wouldn't mind a little advice for tweaking my SB for FNM this week.
ATM it looks like this
3 virulent wound
3 nihil spellbomb
2 ratchet bomb
1 bsz (with 1 main)
3 surgical extraction
2 memoricide
1 hex parasite
Thinking I'll replace the 2 memoricide with 2 spellskite. Still need ideas for the hex parasite. MB has 4 discards and 1 liliana plus 4 instant removal and 1 bsz.
I'm feeling fairly comfortable against control decks, solar flare, White weenie and rdw. never played wolf run or tokens, but I'm worried about them.
Only deck I lost to was GW tokens, but I beat it again in the top 8. Deck has a great aggro and control matchup. Midnight Haunting is probably the worst card against this deck, and it is seeing increased popularity in tokens and control/blade decks. Not sure what to include to help beat that card besides Ratchet Bomb and Mutagenic Growth. Deck is also pretty good against WRR and it's varients, I've found.
Big props to @Smi77y for designing the deck. I might play it again this weekend at SCG KC, but only bc I'm too lazy to make another deck.
Instead of clasp, try out Trigon of Rage. It's been doing wonders for me. It gives you pump when you have extra mana, makes crusader able to kill just about anything, and of course you can do T2 Trigon, T3 Specter, T4 pump make them discard 4.
Instead of clasp, try out Trigon of Rage. It's been doing wonders for me. It gives you pump when you have extra mana, makes crusader able to kill just about anything, and of course you can do T2 Trigon, T3 Specter, T4 pump make them discard 4.
If we are taking trigon, wouldnt Livewire Lash just be strickly better? same cost, but +2/0 permenant investment just better, and makes your creatures better vs removal? Plus random with with targeting your own creature and 2 infect dmg?
If we are taking trigon, wouldnt Livewire Lash just be strickly better? same cost, but +2/0 permenant investment just better, and makes your creatures better vs removal? Plus random with with targeting your own creature and 2 infect dmg?
Against the oncoming rush of hate:
Artifacts for Field Control Spellskite (Burn, Pump Steal) Hex Parasite (Shrines, Trigons, Planeswalkers)
Black Hand/Grave Control Distress (Memoricide, Artifacts, Enchantments, etc.)
Despise (Planeswalkers, Creatures) Surgical Extraction (synergy with Distress and Despise and anything we kill. If we can send 1 of something essential to the graveyard, then the task is to finish the job and remove it from the game. e.g. Turn 1 Virulent Wound on Stromkirk Noble, pay 2 life Surgical Extract.) Memoricide (Goodbye threat, but you have to get to 4 mana and be sure what you want gone.) Nihil Spellbomb (Yeah, it's an artifact, but it's a Black artifact because its kicker is B dependent.)
I'm running 2 of each, except Memoricide and Nihil Spellbomb (Despise, Hex Parasite, and Spellskite in the SB.)
Black remains a mix of (targeted and non-targeted/edict) creature kill with graveyard and hand control. We don't counter and generate card advantage (Blue), we don't really do direct damage and artifact destruction (Red), we don't exile from the battlefield and gain life followed by a weenie rush (White), we don't do (targeted) destroy permanent, mana ramp, and run over (Green).
Green and Red might overwhelm us, but they have no answer to our control and destruction. White has better overall field control and can frustrate us, but they also can't stop our control game and destruction. Blue is the only deck that we can overwhelm, but they can also counter us silly.
This is why I think our focus from Black is hand/grave control, and we supplement our weak field control with artifacts.
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Standard Tempo Modern Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I think the intent was to replace the Trigon with the lash as it is +2 all the time after equip and could also trigger on removal. Trigon requires an investment of 2 for every use though it is +3.
I think it's a toss up honestly. I doubt we'd need to use more than 3 charges from the trigon in any game.
Has anyone cosidered Alter's reap as a card draw engine? It has good synergy with Lashwithe, you can sac the token which would die anyway when you equip it to an infect creature. It also can be used if they dismember or othwise try to kill one of our creatures to draw additional cards.
I've tried the card out, and I really don't like it. Every time I drew into the card, it just sat in my hand for multiple turns. I would rather have Tezzeret's Gambit as a proactive spell.
Isn't Lashwrithe technically pump though? Its considerably more powerful/has the advantage of living weapon and a possible free equip on its side, but saying we don't run pump is a bit disingenuous.
When we say pump, we mean pump spells. For instance, Mutagenic Growth, Titanic Growth, Ground Swell, Giant Growth, or Untamed Might. Although I guess Trigon of Rage is technically pump as well.
Distress is definitely worth it in this deck, you will always get good results when you cast it.
I absolutely agree with this. Distress is the discard that actually works in the current meta. It truly wrecks people. Being able to take Gideon, Day of Judgement, or Sun Titan is incredibly powerful.
I think the MBI deck is pretty tight and secure and maybe we should come up with ideas on how it will be hated out by the other tier 1 & 2 decks so we can come up with some answers.
I agree with this type of thinking.
So since a lot of you guys seem to be having trouble with Mono Red, did you ever think of using Mental Misstep? It stops all of the 1 drops in Mono Red, plus it opens up outs to Despise, Dead Weight, and Wring Flesh from decks running Black based control decks.
But after playing against UB Control, I realized that the matchup is heavily in our favor. He was running 4x Mana Leak, 4x Dissipate, 1x Negate. What ended up happening both games was he tried to counter everything, and when he ran out of counters, he tried to kill everything. He actually ran out of cards well before I did since I was just playing out creatures one at a time. I forced him to Zenith a Lashwrithe token down to a 3/3, which grew the next few turns again. I pushed him in every direction this deck could, and Lashwrithe beatdown is not out of the question against them. I think it helped that I drew into Tezzeret's Gambit early, to actually draw cards, unlike his Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy which are just card selection. Nexus is vital in this matchup, and they really don't have many answers at all.
With WRR being so good against the field, and UB Control being good against WRR, and MBI being good against both, I don't see us getting hated out for a long while.
Anyways, here's my latest list that feels like it is approaching done. Obviously I'll still be making little tweaks week by week, but the core is there.
[QUOTE=Archie;/comments/3161973]I've tried the card out, and I really don't like it. Every time I drew into the card, it just sat in my hand for multiple turns. I would rather have Tezzeret's Gambit as a proactive spell.QUOTE]
How many were you running and were you running just that or that and the Gambit? thanks for the imput
I'd like those sideboard strategies. You seem to put a lot of thought into your lists and it's good (for me at least) to see why things get put in and things get put out. I've tried MBI for a while on and off, and it seems like everybody's numbers for certain cards constantly fluctuate, it'd be nice to see why certain things stick and certain things get dropped or go down to 2 or 1.
And yea, I miss running 9 discard spells main board. I miss distress and IOK.
If we are taking trigon, wouldnt Livewire Lash just be strickly better? same cost, but +2/0 permenant investment just better, and makes your creatures better vs removal? Plus random with with targeting your own creature and 2 infect dmg?
Trigon can be better if you are swarming. If you swing with 3 creatures and your opponent can block 1, the ability to pump after blockers are declared, and thus not have your pumped creature get blocked, can be very useful.
I'd like those sideboard strategies. You seem to put a lot of thought into your lists and it's good (for me at least) to see why things get put in and things get put out. I've tried MBI for a while on and off, and it seems like everybody's numbers for certain cards constantly fluctuate, it'd be nice to see why certain things stick and certain things get dropped or go down to 2 or 1.
And yea, I miss running 9 discard spells main board. I miss distress and IOK.
The numbers will always be changing a little bit here and there simply due to the weekly evolution of the metagame.
My current board strategy vs. the top decks in order of most difficult to easiest IMO:
Trigon can be better if you are swarming. If you swing with 3 creatures and your opponent can block 1, the ability to pump after blockers are declared, and thus not have your pumped creature get blocked, can be very useful.
I feel that this puts the Trigon above the Livewire Lash. Something to point out: If you use Trigon to pump Crusader, he survives battle against just about everything that isn't Grave Titan.
I've tried the card out, and I really don't like it. Every time I drew into the card, it just sat in my hand for multiple turns. I would rather have Tezzeret's Gambit as a proactive spell.
How many were you running and were you running just that or that and the Gambit? thanks for the imput
The splits I had were:
2x Gambit
2x Reap
and
3x Gambit
2x Reap
and
3x Gambit
1x Reap
I eventually just cut the card because the list just doesn't have that many creatures. I feel that I would need to run somewhere in the range of 20-26 creatures. Basically just a list that looks like the old RB Vampires.
I feel that this puts the Trigon above the Livewire Lash. Something to point out: If you use Trigon to pump Crusader, he survives battle against just about everything that isn't Grave Titan.
Thanks for the sideboard info, all that makes very much sense.
Why did you end up dropping postmortem lunge?
I seriously want the card in my list, but I just ran out of space. Other cards that didn't make the cut were: 1x Vatmother main, 1x Contagion Clasp main, 1x Geth's Verdict main, 1x Tumble Magnet main. I did have a few games where Lunge sat in my hand, unable to do anything, but that was pretty rare. Basically against the big creature swarm decks it isn't very useful. Don't get me wrong though, if I had 1 slot free, I'd put it in there. Heck, maybe that's my 61st card.
Something to point out: If you use Trigon to pump Crusader, he survives battle against just about everything that isn't Grave Titan.
Actually it does survive against grave titan with the pump due to first strike. It will also survive against any other titan out there but not (as was said before) against wurmcoil engine.
Actually it does survive against grave titan with the pump due to first strike. It will also survive against any other titan out there but not (as was said before) against wurmcoil engine.
Deck is still being worked on for the meta. Any help/suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
Titan still kills Crusader because it deals Crusader 1 damage, and it has deathtouch. If you get your Crusader to 6 power, though, you should be fine.
As for your list, my one big thing would be to drop Lilliana. While she's a very strong card in control decks and decks that like having things in the yard, I don't really see what she does for this deck. I'd cut her and add a piece of spot removal and 2 Specters.
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Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the sig. Check them out!
I've tried the card out, and I really don't like it. Every time I drew into the card, it just sat in my hand for multiple turns. I would rather have Tezzeret's Gambit as a proactive spell.
When we say pump, we mean pump spells. For instance, Mutagenic Growth, Titanic Growth, Ground Swell, Giant Growth, or Untamed Might. Although I guess Trigon of Rage is technically pump as well.
I absolutely agree with this. Distress is the discard that actually works in the current meta. It truly wrecks people. Being able to take Gideon, Day of Judgement, or Sun Titan is incredibly powerful.
I agree with this type of thinking.
So since a lot of you guys seem to be having trouble with Mono Red, did you ever think of using Mental Misstep? It stops all of the 1 drops in Mono Red, plus it opens up outs to Despise, Dead Weight, and Wring Flesh from decks running Black based control decks.
But after playing against UB Control, I realized that the matchup is heavily in our favor. He was running 4x Mana Leak, 4x Dissipate, 1x Negate. What ended up happening both games was he tried to counter everything, and when he ran out of counters, he tried to kill everything. He actually ran out of cards well before I did since I was just playing out creatures one at a time. I forced him to Zenith a Lashwrithe token down to a 3/3, which grew the next few turns again. I pushed him in every direction this deck could, and Lashwrithe beatdown is not out of the question against them. I think it helped that I drew into Tezzeret's Gambit early, to actually draw cards, unlike his Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy which are just card selection. Nexus is vital in this matchup, and they really don't have many answers at all.
With WRR being so good against the field, and UB Control being good against WRR, and MBI being good against both, I don't see us getting hated out for a long while.
Anyways, here's my latest list that feels like it is approaching done. Obviously I'll still be making little tweaks week by week, but the core is there.
If anyone wants my sideboard strategies, I can post those too.
I want to know what U/B deck you were playing against. The ones near me run 8 counters, 6 kill spells w/ 2 Wring Flesh, 4 Snapcaster, and only 5 threats. He ALWAYS has enough to kill the 7 or 8 threats I play. I play them one at a time, forcing him to deal with them, but he always can. The deck I have most trouble against is U/B, which seems contradictory to what you guys are saying. How do you deal with all that removal, counters, and forbidden alchemy to dig for the spells you need?
just wanted to point out there's only 14 in the side.
ATM it looks like this
3 virulent wound
3 nihil spellbomb
2 ratchet bomb
1 bsz (with 1 main)
3 surgical extraction
2 memoricide
1 hex parasite
Thinking I'll replace the 2 memoricide with 2 spellskite. Still need ideas for the hex parasite. MB has 4 discards and 1 liliana plus 4 instant removal and 1 bsz.
I'm feeling fairly comfortable against control decks, solar flare, White weenie and rdw. never played wolf run or tokens, but I'm worried about them.
4 Plague Stinger
3 Whispering Specter
3 Spellskite
2 Skittles
4 Lashwrithes
3 Victim of Night
2 Virulent Wound
2 Contagion Clasp
1 Tumble Magnet
3 Trigon of Rage
1 Doom Blade
2 Tezzeret's Gambit
21 Swamp
1 Buried Ruin
2 Virulent Wound
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Postmortem Lunge
2 Distress
1 Phyrexian Vatmother
Only deck I lost to was GW tokens, but I beat it again in the top 8. Deck has a great aggro and control matchup. Midnight Haunting is probably the worst card against this deck, and it is seeing increased popularity in tokens and control/blade decks. Not sure what to include to help beat that card besides Ratchet Bomb and Mutagenic Growth. Deck is also pretty good against WRR and it's varients, I've found.
Big props to @Smi77y for designing the deck. I might play it again this weekend at SCG KC, but only bc I'm too lazy to make another deck.
Deck tags are required.
4 Plague Stinger
4 Whispering Specter
4 Phyrexian Crusader
3 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Spells:
4 Virulent Wound
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Doom Blade
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Postmortem Lunge
4 Lashwrithe
Lands:
4 Inkmoth Nexus
20 Swamp
4 Despise
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Sever the Bloodline
2 Phyrexian Vatmother
2 Nihil Spellbomb
I'm thinking I want to get rid of one skittles, and one Metamorph. I just can't decide what 2 cards to put in their place.
The only expensive cards are Skithiryx, Inkmoth and crusader. If your running Lili then she is the biggest investment. But I don't care for her.
Well, I was considering having this as a side deck. How does a build without lilana look?
Watch the budget talk guys. This is a warning to everyone in the thread.
Contagion Clasp is pretty good. And it gives you something to do when you don't have anything else to do.
How about?
-1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
-2 Phyrexian Metamorph
-1 Virulent Wound
-1 Tezzeret's Gambit
+4 Distress
+1 Contagion Clasp
Distress is definitely worth it in this deck, you will always get good results when you cast it.
If we are taking trigon, wouldnt Livewire Lash just be strickly better? same cost, but +2/0 permenant investment just better, and makes your creatures better vs removal? Plus random with with targeting your own creature and 2 infect dmg?
Livewire Lash is only triggered by spells, not abilities, so Trigon of Rage isn't going to trigger it.
Edit: Whoops, misread that, don't mind me.
Artifacts for Field Control
Spellskite (Burn, Pump Steal)
Hex Parasite (Shrines, Trigons, Planeswalkers)
Black Hand/Grave Control
Distress (Memoricide, Artifacts, Enchantments, etc.)
Despise (Planeswalkers, Creatures)
Surgical Extraction (synergy with Distress and Despise and anything we kill. If we can send 1 of something essential to the graveyard, then the task is to finish the job and remove it from the game. e.g. Turn 1 Virulent Wound on Stromkirk Noble, pay 2 life Surgical Extract.)
Memoricide (Goodbye threat, but you have to get to 4 mana and be sure what you want gone.)
Nihil Spellbomb (Yeah, it's an artifact, but it's a Black artifact because its kicker is B dependent.)
I'm running 2 of each, except Memoricide and Nihil Spellbomb (Despise, Hex Parasite, and Spellskite in the SB.)
Black remains a mix of (targeted and non-targeted/edict) creature kill with graveyard and hand control. We don't counter and generate card advantage (Blue), we don't really do direct damage and artifact destruction (Red), we don't exile from the battlefield and gain life followed by a weenie rush (White), we don't do (targeted) destroy permanent, mana ramp, and run over (Green).
Green and Red might overwhelm us, but they have no answer to our control and destruction. White has better overall field control and can frustrate us, but they also can't stop our control game and destruction. Blue is the only deck that we can overwhelm, but they can also counter us silly.
This is why I think our focus from Black is hand/grave control, and we supplement our weak field control with artifacts.
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I think the intent was to replace the Trigon with the lash as it is +2 all the time after equip and could also trigger on removal. Trigon requires an investment of 2 for every use though it is +3.
I think it's a toss up honestly. I doubt we'd need to use more than 3 charges from the trigon in any game.
I've tried the card out, and I really don't like it. Every time I drew into the card, it just sat in my hand for multiple turns. I would rather have Tezzeret's Gambit as a proactive spell.
When we say pump, we mean pump spells. For instance, Mutagenic Growth, Titanic Growth, Ground Swell, Giant Growth, or Untamed Might. Although I guess Trigon of Rage is technically pump as well.
I absolutely agree with this. Distress is the discard that actually works in the current meta. It truly wrecks people. Being able to take Gideon, Day of Judgement, or Sun Titan is incredibly powerful.
I agree with this type of thinking.
So since a lot of you guys seem to be having trouble with Mono Red, did you ever think of using Mental Misstep? It stops all of the 1 drops in Mono Red, plus it opens up outs to Despise, Dead Weight, and Wring Flesh from decks running Black based control decks.
But after playing against UB Control, I realized that the matchup is heavily in our favor. He was running 4x Mana Leak, 4x Dissipate, 1x Negate. What ended up happening both games was he tried to counter everything, and when he ran out of counters, he tried to kill everything. He actually ran out of cards well before I did since I was just playing out creatures one at a time. I forced him to Zenith a Lashwrithe token down to a 3/3, which grew the next few turns again. I pushed him in every direction this deck could, and Lashwrithe beatdown is not out of the question against them. I think it helped that I drew into Tezzeret's Gambit early, to actually draw cards, unlike his Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy which are just card selection. Nexus is vital in this matchup, and they really don't have many answers at all.
With WRR being so good against the field, and UB Control being good against WRR, and MBI being good against both, I don't see us getting hated out for a long while.
Anyways, here's my latest list that feels like it is approaching done. Obviously I'll still be making little tweaks week by week, but the core is there.
4x Inkmoth Nexus
20x Swamp
Creatures: 15
2x Necropede
3x Plague Stinger
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Whispering Specter
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
3x Virulent Wound
4x Distress
2x Victim of Night
2x Doom Blade
2x Dismember
3x Tezzeret's Gambit
Artifacts: 5
4x Lashwrithe
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Virulent Wound
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Black Sun's Zenith
3x Phyrexian Vatmother
2x Spellskite
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Dismember
1x Geth's Verdict
If anyone wants my sideboard strategies, I can post those too.
How many were you running and were you running just that or that and the Gambit? thanks for the imput
And yea, I miss running 9 discard spells main board.
Trigon can be better if you are swarming. If you swing with 3 creatures and your opponent can block 1, the ability to pump after blockers are declared, and thus not have your pumped creature get blocked, can be very useful.
My current board strategy vs. the top decks in order of most difficult to easiest IMO:
3x Plague Stinger
1x Dismember
1x Geth's Verdict
2x Dismember
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Distress
1x Tezzeret's Gambit
4x Whispering Specter
3x Phyrexian Vatmother
2x Spellskite
1x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Contagion Clasp
2x Necropede
2x Dismember
2x Spellskite
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Dismember
3x Virulent Wound
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Geth's Verdict
3x Virulent Wound
2x Dismember
1x Geth's Verdict
3x Phyrexian Vatmother
I feel that this puts the Trigon above the Livewire Lash. Something to point out: If you use Trigon to pump Crusader, he survives battle against just about everything that isn't Grave Titan.
The splits I had were:
2x Gambit
2x Reap
and
3x Gambit
2x Reap
and
3x Gambit
1x Reap
I eventually just cut the card because the list just doesn't have that many creatures. I feel that I would need to run somewhere in the range of 20-26 creatures. Basically just a list that looks like the old RB Vampires.
Why did you end up dropping postmortem lunge?
Or Wurmcoil Engine.
I seriously want the card in my list, but I just ran out of space. Other cards that didn't make the cut were: 1x Vatmother main, 1x Contagion Clasp main, 1x Geth's Verdict main, 1x Tumble Magnet main. I did have a few games where Lunge sat in my hand, unable to do anything, but that was pretty rare. Basically against the big creature swarm decks it isn't very useful. Don't get me wrong though, if I had 1 slot free, I'd put it in there. Heck, maybe that's my 61st card.
Actually it does survive against grave titan with the pump due to first strike. It will also survive against any other titan out there but not (as was said before) against wurmcoil engine.
Current decklist:
20 swamp
4 inkmoth nexus
Creatures: 12
4 phyrexian crusader
4 plague stinger
2 whispering specter
2 skithiryx, the blight dragon
spells: 12
2 Dismember
2 doom blade
2 virulent wound
4 distress
2 tezzeret's gambit
2 contagion clasp
4 lashwrithe
2 nihil spellbomb
1 tumble magnet
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the veil
2 nihil spellbomb
2 virulent wound
3 phyrexian vatmother
2 black sun's zenith
3 spellskite
1 doomblade
2 whispering specter
Deck is still being worked on for the meta. Any help/suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
Titan still kills Crusader because it deals Crusader 1 damage, and it has deathtouch. If you get your Crusader to 6 power, though, you should be fine.
As for your list, my one big thing would be to drop Lilliana. While she's a very strong card in control decks and decks that like having things in the yard, I don't really see what she does for this deck. I'd cut her and add a piece of spot removal and 2 Specters.
Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the sig. Check them out!
Standard:
GGGRDungrove Wolf RunGGGR
Modern:
URExarchMite KikiTwinUR
EDH:
GGGOmnathGGG
WWWDarienWWW
GGGEzuriGGG
I want to know what U/B deck you were playing against. The ones near me run 8 counters, 6 kill spells w/ 2 Wring Flesh, 4 Snapcaster, and only 5 threats. He ALWAYS has enough to kill the 7 or 8 threats I play. I play them one at a time, forcing him to deal with them, but he always can. The deck I have most trouble against is U/B, which seems contradictory to what you guys are saying. How do you deal with all that removal, counters, and forbidden alchemy to dig for the spells you need?