The Evil Twins in the board are just there for Thrun (I didn't want to pay for Metamorphs or Images), I only wish there was a more efficient way of dealing with him. I don't know how I feel about the Wurmcoil Engines, but I bought two for a Grand Architect deck I made awhile back and I wanted to use them. They're OK post-board, after your opponent boards out creature removal, but I've had them be copied by my opponents Images too many times...
I wasn't either. Just tossing in an idea. I had to trade all my Slagstorms to get another Snapcaster, but it was worth it.
@jadencamelot I like how you don't use Jace. He seemed way too beefy for what he does in this deck. Shrines helped a lot better. I run 2 Witchbane, just for the Mirror which surprisingly, there were 4 BV decks at last FNM.
What's up guys and gals. I'm a returning player. A friend got me into magic on Wednesday nights until i can get some Fridays off.
I love control and don't have much cash to spend on magic and heard about UR vengeance and loved it, but jadencamelot, I fell in love with your deck.
I can basically run your deck barring lands and snapcaster mage so I did make a few changes more to my taste but my issue was the mana base.
I have 2 drowned catacomb and 3 Rootbound crag in my deck atm, other than that I run 4 swamp 7 Island and 8 mountains. I also run a single talisman.
In addition to all that my SB looks a bit different because of my meta. I have 4 slots open that are filled with ancient grudge, but i want to drop that to 2. I know there will be a few solar flare and 1 UB control as well as a UB tezz infect as well as a few red deck wins. Other than that its humans tokens and maybe some random wolf run.
Solar flare is the one that seems the most difficult to this deck and i was wondering if any of you had some advice for a two of for the sideboard or any advice vs this decks worse match ups.
Solar flare is the one that seems the most difficult to this deck and i was wondering if any of you had some advice for a two of for the sideboard or any advice vs this decks worse match ups.
I changes my list up a bit from last night and now run 2 Trinket Mages in the sideboard with Nihil Spellbomb and a single Elixir of Immortality. Our lists are probably a bit different, but I board like this against most Solar Flare decks.
-3 Rolling Temblor
-2 Druidic Satchel
+2 Trinket Mage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Sever the Bloodlines
I don't need to clear out the board, so the Temblors come out, and you don't get full value out of the Satchels unless you're playing a faster deck. I really like to use the Spellbombs at least twice in this matchup, and with all the card-draw we play you're almost guaranteed to see the two of them. I agree that this is one of our worst match-ups though, big creatures are never going to be easy for this deck to take out.
thats my deck, hope it is okay to post. It is mostly theory based on what I saw last week and talk between the people i play with. My sideboard could probably use a lot of work. I might point out that all the cards above a dollar in the deck are being lent to me atm, except for the slagstorm.
that is the main reason for my choices for the cards in my deck and sideboard. Frost Titan was recommended to play vs control game two where creature removal will generally be taken out and you can keep a grave titantapped.
The Evil Twins in the board are just there for Thrun (I didn't want to pay for Metamorphs or Images), I only wish there was a more efficient way of dealing with him. I don't know how I feel about the Wurmcoil Engines, but I bought two for a Grand Architect deck I made awhile back and I wanted to use them. They're OK post-board, after your opponent boards out creature removal, but I've had them be copied by my opponents Images too many times...
Your list is good, the only notable absence is Doom Blade. If you're not running them, you will need an extra Sever the Bloodline. A big issue with BV in general is a weakness to big creatures that resolve. Doom Blade helps this, while also being both cheap, instant-speed and good with Snapcaster. Without Snapcasters, I would normally run 3, but replacing two with a Geistflame and a Sever the Bloodline should be okay. I'd still run the 'third' copy though.
Tribute to Hunger is an interesting call. Is that a metagame decision, or just a catch-all against trollshroud? Do you find you have a weakness there?
Also note that Evil Twin requires black, so if you could find a copy or two of Image/Metamorph it would probably be better. Although it could randomly beat the crap out of Wolf Run, by copying a Primeval Titan and blowing them up.
Also I don't know about the maindeck Disperse. It seems like a 4th copy of something else would be better in that slot, though again it's not a bad catch-all. I just feel that the card is pretty marginal unless you need it against something specific (Shrine of Burning Rage), and it needs to be coupled with a counterspell to work.
I wasn't either. Just tossing in an idea. I had to trade all my Slagstorms to get another Snapcaster, but it was worth it.
@jadencamelot I like how you don't use Jace. He seemed way too beefy for what he does in this deck. Shrines helped a lot better. I run 2 Witchbane, just for the Mirror which surprisingly, there were 4 BV decks at last FNM.
Lol, I didn't even think of Jace. I wouldn't have run him simply because he provides no immediate advantage, you have to wait at least a turn before his effect becomes relevant, and that could quite easily be the turn you die. He's only good if you're already winning (except against control, but then you have to tap out).
And wow, that's a lot of BV in your meta. I agree with Witchbane orb. It's a beating. You might even want to play 3, simply because they'll be boarding in Ancient Grudges.
I changes my list up a bit from last night and now run 2 Trinket Mages in the sideboard with Nihil Spellbomb and a single Elixir of Immortality. Our lists are probably a bit different, but I board like this against most Solar Flare decks.
-3 Rolling Temblor
-2 Druidic Satchel
+2 Trinket Mage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Sever the Bloodlines
I don't need to clear out the board, so the Temblors come out, and you don't get full value out of the Satchels unless you're playing a faster deck. I really like to use the Spellbombs at least twice in this matchup, and with all the card-draw we play you're almost guaranteed to see the two of them. I agree that this is one of our worst match-ups though, big creatures are never going to be easy for this deck to take out.
I don't think you're running enough counterspells for this matchup IMO. Having enough permission to keep up with theirs is key. The most important thing should be resolving a Burning Vengeance, and keeping up card advantage. Keep in mind that you have more card draw spells than they do, so theoretically you should almost always win a long game. In essence this card draw is drawing you into your counters. Save your counterspells for the important stuff, ie. their Titans and protecting your engine. Try not to let them Dissipate your Alchemies/Ravings.
I run 4 Mana Leak, 2 Dissipate main, and board in 2 Dissipate. This also gives me an edge in the Wolf Run matchup, which is the other matchup whose huge creatures give Burning Vengeance a bit of grief. I was actually considering turning my control sideboard on its head, actually, and boarding in Surgical Extractions and Negates instead of Shrines. I will, however, test this before I recommend it.
Also while the Trinket Mages seem cool, there is no reason not to simply run more spellbombs. You're not running any other 1 CMC artifacts, so there is no package. You might as well draw another copy and it'll be easier to get through their permission, because you don't have to tap 3 mana for Trinket Mage first. Even if the third copy is dead, it always cantrips. It'll also help with the mirror a lot.
What's up guys and gals. I'm a returning player. A friend got me into magic on Wednesday nights until i can get some Fridays off.
I love control and don't have much cash to spend on magic and heard about UR vengeance and loved it, but jadencamelot, I fell in love with your deck.
I can basically run your deck barring lands and snapcaster mage so I did make a few changes more to my taste but my issue was the mana base.
I have 2 drowned catacomb and 3 Rootbound crag in my deck atm, other than that I run 4 swamp 7 Island and 8 mountains. I also run a single talisman.
In addition to all that my SB looks a bit different because of my meta. I have 4 slots open that are filled with ancient grudge, but i want to drop that to 2. I know there will be a few solar flare and 1 UB control as well as a UB tezz infect as well as a few red deck wins. Other than that its humans tokens and maybe some random wolf run.
Solar flare is the one that seems the most difficult to this deck and i was wondering if any of you had some advice for a two of for the sideboard or any advice vs this decks worse match ups.
Without heavy manafixing, I wouldn't recommend Sorin's Vengeance at all. I'm currently considering moving back to Devil's Play anyway, and I frequently have trouble casting Sorin's with 11 black sources. You only have 6. The amount of black you have is fine for Doom Blade/Sever/Alchemy, and I'd even consider upping it by one for those cards alone, simply because you want Doom Blade early.
thats my deck, hope it is okay to post. It is mostly theory based on what I saw last week and talk between the people i play with. My sideboard could probably use a lot of work. I might point out that all the cards above a dollar in the deck are being lent to me atm, except for the slagstorm.
that is the main reason for my choices for the cards in my deck and sideboard. Frost Titan was recommended to play vs control game two where creature removal will generally be taken out and you can keep a grave titantapped.
When replacing cards, you have to look at what purpose they served in the original decklist and replace them with cards that fill those roles.
Snapcaster Mage was generally meant to flashback countermagic and Doom Blades. This means my list is effectively running 10 counterspells and 4-5 Doom Blades (it's not really 6 because you have to draw a Doom Blade in the first place). I would try to play an extra Dissipate and an extra Doom Blade, then fill up the other two slots with other stuff (because I wouldn't advise running 4 of either). An extra Geistflame is fine, and an extra Slagstorm or Sever the Bloodline wouldn't hurt. The latter is a particularly versatile card and I have taken a personal liking to it, but it's up to you.
Sorin's Vengeance fills the same role as Devil's Play: to fireball your opponent for the win. The key differences here are:
1) Sorin's requires triple black.
2) Sorin's gains life.
3) Devil's play comes with Flashback.
4) Devil's play costs a whopping 11 mana to deal 10 damage.
5) Sorin's is an instant kill with Snapcaster.
6) Devil's play targets creatures.
7) Devil's play does NOT require Snapcaster to kill.
8) Devil's play good early game; Sorin's is not.
9) Devil's play is extremely versatile; Sorin's is not.
Really, I think point 8# is the number one, and it comes back to the essence of this deck. Your early game is what needs help, not the lategame. Devil's play works in BOTH the late and early game, so my vote goes to Devil's play.
It seems to me that the issue with this deck is surviving to the late game. You have the strongest lategame of any deck in standard, beating even 'the' control decks. Against aggro, the issues you face are simply being able to remove their threats FAST enough to survive.
Also, as an upside, you're perfectly happy to dump a Devil's play off an Alchemy, while you want to spew after dumping a Sorin's Vengeance for the Mana Leak you needed.
EDIT: From my decklist, ignoring the sideboard, what can I board out for Wolf Run? There are a large number of cards that I want to bring in, but only the Slagstorms strike me as subpar for the matchup. I am tempted to board out Geistflames, but they help in the matchup too. Against Wolf Run you want a boatload of counters, plus a few removal spells to deal with any resolved bombs. Ideally I want to bring in:
+3 Phantasmal Image
+2 Dissipate
+2 Flashfreeze
+1 Sever the Bloodline
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I tried it, and found it hurt my already strained manabase for Sorin's Vengeance. I never really used it, because I had so much expensive flashback I was using all my mana each turn. You can play it if you want, if you're not using Sorin's Vengeance. It also gives you an edge in the control mirror.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
EDIT: From my decklist, ignoring the sideboard, what can I board out for Wolf Run? There are a large number of cards that I want to bring in, but only the Slagstorms strike me as subpar for the matchup. I am tempted to board out Geistflames, but they help in the matchup too. Against Wolf Run you want a boatload of counters, plus a few removal spells to deal with any resolved bombs. Ideally I want to bring in:
+3 Phantasmal Image
+2 Dissipate
+2 Flashfreeze
+1 Sever the Bloodline
But I can't work out what to board out. Help?
well 1 sorin's for 1 sever seems good and the 3 slagstorm for 2 flashfreeze and one dissipate. the remaining 4 cards could replace 2 ravings and 2 snapcaster or one snapcaster and 3 ravings
When replacing cards, you have to look at what purpose they served in the original decklist and replace them with cards that fill those roles.
Snapcaster Mage was generally meant to flashback countermagic and Doom Blades. This means my list is effectively running 10 counterspells and 4-5 Doom Blades (it's not really 6 because you have to draw a Doom Blade in the first place). I would try to play an extra Dissipate and an extra Doom Blade, then fill up the other two slots with other stuff (because I wouldn't advise running 4 of either). An extra Geistflame is fine, and an extra Slagstorm or Sever the Bloodline wouldn't hurt. The latter is a particularly versatile card and I have taken a personal liking to it, but it's up to you.
Sorin's Vengeance fills the same role as Devil's Play: to fireball your opponent for the win. The key differences here are:
1) Sorin's requires triple black.
2) Sorin's gains life.
3) Devil's play comes with Flashback.
4) Devil's play costs a whopping 11 mana to deal 10 damage.
5) Sorin's is an instant kill with Snapcaster.
6) Devil's play targets creatures.
7) Devil's play does NOT require Snapcaster to kill.
8) Devil's play good early game; Sorin's is not.
9) Devil's play is extremely versatile; Sorin's is not.
Really, I think point 8# is the number one, and it comes back to the essence of this deck. Your early game is what needs help, not the lategame. Devil's play works in BOTH the late and early game, so my vote goes to Devil's play.
It seems to me that the issue with this deck is surviving to the late game. You have the strongest lategame of any deck in standard, beating even 'the' control decks. Against aggro, the issues you face are simply being able to remove their threats FAST enough to survive.
Also, as an upside, you're perfectly happy to dump a Devil's play off an Alchemy, while you want to spew after dumping a Sorin's Vengeance for the Mana Leak you needed.
I kind of figured that sorin's wasn't staying. i upped geistflame to four because I ran across so many one defense creatures last wednesday. In addition last wednesday the only wolf run deck scrapped it after losing to my random junk GW deck with sideboard naturalize. I am sure there will be more of them this week, but we shall see.
so I dropped 2 sorin's for 1 doom blade and 1 dissipate and the talisman for a single ancient grudge main.
SB lost 3 ancient grudges and 1 frost titan to gain 2 negate and 2 nihil spell bomb
R1: vs U//Burning Vengeance: I win 2-0 mainly off the back off pristine talisman. A lot of counter wars ensued in both games, and everyone just played draw-go. But he only managed to land 1 BV in either game, and my talismans did counter most damage. A scary spot in Game 2 when he resolved a Rite of flame and hit me with phyrexian spells and a BV in play. But when it was all said and done he and I were both at 11. I did not give him a change to flash it back.
R2: vs G/ Wolves. I win this round 2-0. To be fair, both games my opponent is slightly color-screwed. That being said, counters, snappy, and geistflames keep the board clear until I can land a BV. I then just shock everything that lands and bury my opponent in card advantage. I bin the Sorin's Vengeance and then flash /w snappy it back G1 for 14 damage and the win (2 BV in play). Game 2 is similar but I win off the back of 2 geistflames that do 7 dmg apiece (3 BV in play).
R3: vs Grixis Control (not too far off from Chaplin's build). I lose a heartbreaker 2-1. Game 1 goes long. He counters wars my first talisman, but I land the second. He is just throwing burn at my head, but the talisman keeps me in it. BV gets me there comfortably. I only see snappies and olivia, so, I mistakenly board out slagstorm and doom blades.
Game 2 my opponent muls, then keeps 6 after shrugging. T1 Delver. T2 it flips and he plays a 2nd. T3 that one flips, and it is just about all over. After the hand my opponent admits to keeping a 4 land 2 delver hand... Lucky on the draws eh?
More SBing before Game 3. In game 3 he lands an early chandra and is threatening ultimate really fast. I am keeping it below 6 with geistflames and BV (1 in play), but cant find the gas to kill it (he did not side out his creature removal, though I only had snappies at this point). I finally draw my disperse and bounce the plainwalker, then flashfreeze it on the way back down. I'm getting really low in life off the domed burn, but I do have a talisman in play. I land a 2nd BV, and he lands a liliana making us both discard. I then make a big mistake. My opponent only has 1 card in hand, so I main phase tap out to flashback an Alchemy and point 4 dmg at liliana. I have 2x disperse in hand after the alchemy. My opponent draws and plays a Wurmcoil, still with 1 card in hand. I again (main phase) drop a snappy to flash back my binned tribute. This make my opponent sac the wurmcoil and I gain 6 life to 15 (and do him 4 damage off the BV's). he then draws and plays a land, then attacks me to 12 (I chump a token with snappy). I draw and pass. He draws (up to 2 cards in hand now) and attacks me with both tokens. I flashback another alchemy to kill the deathtouch token, and he shows me the 2x brimstone volleys to kill me (I had the 2x dissipate in hand, but no mana to use after paying 7 for the alchemy). Again amazing draws on his point, while I tapped out in the wrong turns to deal with threats.
SB (not going to show, as I SB'd wrong post G1 and was not happy with post G2 SB'ing).
Thoughts:
Sorin's Vengeance is an interesting card. I dont mind the 1 of, and it can just win on the spot. I'll probably keep it as a win condition.
No Desperate Ravings. When I tested the deck at FNM, there was never really a time when I wanted to pitch a card at random. I ended up way too often pitching a BV or snappy. I've replaced with think twice and am perfectly ok without it. I realize that you may not think the same, but for now, dont try to argue with me as I am pretty set (lol).
Pristine Talisman is definitely a keeper. The point of our deck is to survive until we can establish a BV or two, or get the slagstorm/wrath. Don't think of these as just gaining 1 life, but rather I will gain 1 life per talisman every single turn. Plus it is a mana source to fuel our flashbacks.
Sever the Bloodline it never seemed usable against my current matches (though I would have loved it against the wurmcoil). I'm not sure if it will stay, but I'll keep it for now.
Consecrated sphinx. The guys a house. It doesnt die to much and you have counters to protect it. It will win the game if it lands.
Tribute to Hunger instant speed creature removal and life gain. It helps keep you alive. I really the 1 of main (I may try to get a 2nd) and additional SB.
Shrine of Burning Rage I'm not feeling the need for this card. Even against control I did not SB it in. Probably on the out
Mental Misstep: It wasnt too helpful, but then again I did not face down any graveyard hate. I'll keep it as a 2 of for now.
Frost Breath; It seems like a great stall tactic, though I need more testing against aggro to know for sure.
Disperse: really, really good against control. Miss countering that plainswalker? well, just bounce it and counter it on the way back down. The SB (if not main) could definitely use a few more of these.
Final thoughts: Has anyone considered dropping B for W? We could keep a few duals for the flashback of forbidden alchemy, and then replace slagstorm with [all reaching] day of judgment or even divine reckoning . It would also let us play feeling of dread (a potential super stall tactic w/ flashback). I may have to do a design just to see how it runs.
R1: vs U//Burning Vengeance: I win 2-0 mainly off the back off pristine talisman. A lot of counter wars ensued in both games, and everyone just played draw-go. But he only managed to land 1 BV in either game, and my talismans did counter most damage. A scary spot in Game 2 when he resolved a Rite of flame and hit me with phyrexian spells and a BV in play. But when it was all said and done he and I were both at 11. I did not give him a change to flash it back.
R2: vs G/ Wolves. I win this round 2-0. To be fair, both games my opponent is slightly color-screwed. That being said, counters, snappy, and geistflames keep the board clear until I can land a BV. I then just shock everything that lands and bury my opponent in card advantage. I bin the Sorin's Vengeance and then flash /w snappy it back G1 for 14 damage and the win (2 BV in play). Game 2 is similar but I win off the back of 2 geistflames that do 7 dmg apiece (3 BV in play).
R3: vs Grixis Control (not too far off from Chaplin's build). I lose a heartbreaker 2-1. Game 1 goes long. He counters wars my first talisman, but I land the second. He is just throwing burn at my head, but the talisman keeps me in it. BV gets me there comfortably. I only see snappies and olivia, so, I mistakenly board out slagstorm and doom blades.
Game 2 my opponent muls, then keeps 6 after shrugging. T1 Delver. T2 it flips and he plays a 2nd. T3 that one flips, and it is just about all over. After the hand my opponent admits to keeping a 4 land 2 delver hand... Lucky on the draws eh?
More SBing before Game 3. In game 3 he lands an early chandra and is threatening ultimate really fast. I am keeping it below 6 with geistflames and BV (1 in play), but cant find the gas to kill it (he did not side out his creature removal, though I only had snappies at this point). I finally draw my disperse and bounce the plainwalker, then flashfreeze it on the way back down. I'm getting really low in life off the domed burn, but I do have a talisman in play. I land a 2nd BV, and he lands a liliana making us both discard. I then make a big mistake. My opponent only has 1 card in hand, so I main phase tap out to flashback an Alchemy and point 4 dmg at liliana. I have 2x disperse in hand after the alchemy. My opponent draws and plays a Wurmcoil, still with 1 card in hand. I again (main phase) drop a snappy to flash back my binned tribute. This make my opponent sac the wurmcoil and I gain 6 life to 15 (and do him 4 damage off the BV's). he then draws and plays a land, then attacks me to 12 (I chump a token with snappy). I draw and pass. He draws (up to 2 cards in hand now) and attacks me with both tokens. I flashback another alchemy to kill the deathtouch token, and he shows me the 2x brimstone volleys to kill me (I had the 2x dissipate in hand, but no mana to use after paying 7 for the alchemy). Again amazing draws on his point, while I tapped out in the wrong turns to deal with threats.
SB (not going to show, as I SB'd wrong post G1 and was not happy with post G2 SB'ing).
Thoughts:
Sorin's Vengeance is an interesting card. I dont mind the 1 of, and it can just win on the spot. I'll probably keep it as a win condition.
No Desperate Ravings. When I tested the deck at FNM, there was never really a time when I wanted to pitch a card at random. I ended up way too often pitching a BV or snappy. I've replaced with think twice and am perfectly ok without it. I realize that you may not think the same, but for now, dont try to argue with me as I am pretty set (lol).
Pristine Talisman is definitely a keeper. The point of our deck is to survive until we can establish a BV or two, or get the slagstorm/wrath. Don't think of these as just gaining 1 life, but rather I will gain 1 life per talisman every single turn. Plus it is a mana source to fuel our flashbacks.
Sever the Bloodline it never seemed usable against my current matches (though I would have loved it against the wurmcoil). I'm not sure if it will stay, but I'll keep it for now.
Consecrated sphinx. The guys a house. It doesnt die to much and you have counters to protect it. It will win the game if it lands.
Tribute to Hunger instant speed creature removal and life gain. It helps keep you alive. I really the 1 of main (I may try to get a 2nd) and additional SB.
Shrine of Burning Rage I'm not feeling the need for this card. Even against control I did not SB it in. Probably on the out
Mental Misstep: It wasnt too helpful, but then again I did not face down any graveyard hate. I'll keep it as a 2 of for now.
Frost Breath; It seems like a great stall tactic, though I need more testing against aggro to know for sure.
Disperse: really, really good against control. Miss countering that plainswalker? well, just bounce it and counter it on the way back down. The SB (if not main) could definitely use a few more of these.
Final thoughts: Has anyone considered dropping B for W? We could keep a few duals for the flashback of forbidden alchemy, and then replace slagstorm with [all reaching] day of judgment or even divine reckoning . It would also let us play feeling of dread (a potential super stall tactic w/ flashback). I may have to do a design just to see how it runs.
The only reasoning i see to run ravings over think twice is that ravings pumps your shrine. I personally like it because I don't run snappy so not much to lose, except maybe counters.
I may have to fit in some room for the talisman again, I know 2 people running RDW and possibly 3 UR vengeance.
white seems like it could be powerful, but if you are getting white to wipe big creatures that slagstorm can't deal with, then I would take day over divine reckoning. The reasoning is that big creatures don't tend to hit the board in waves like the smaller one does, and if i was playing against this deck and had to choose one creature to keep, i would stick with the hardest to kill one.
although reckoning could be very useful vs creature based aggro, especially with the flashback, I still prefer the ability of slagstorm to deal direct damage late game if i need it to.
I have noticed a few shimmering grotto in the decks, but was wondering if it was really worth it, seems easy to get, but having colored mana fast seems a bit better.
I only run a single Grotto. Ravings has worked great for me, I only run. I may even run a SB SoFaF for untapping cause I run Phoenixs so nothing like putting pressure on with a Sword. Untapping all lands and finishing with flashback or a Devils play.
I have noticed a few shimmering grotto in the decks, but was wondering if it was really worth it, seems easy to get, but having colored mana fast seems a bit better.
I use Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of for 2 reasons. A) I'm only running 24 land and I want better mana fixing for 3 color deck, and B)it gives me the ability to flash-back Ancient Grudge without actually having G mana lands.
I use Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of for 2 reasons. A) I'm only running 24 land and I want better mana fixing for 3 color deck, and B)it gives me the ability to flash-back Ancient Grudge without actually having G mana lands.
well 1 sorin's for 1 sever seems good and the 3 slagstorm for 2 flashfreeze and one dissipate. the remaining 4 cards could replace 2 ravings and 2 snapcaster or one snapcaster and 3 ravings
That looks like a good mixture to me, alternatively you could take out 2 Think Twice, a Snapcaster, and a Geistflame for the last 4. I'm not sure taking out all the Desperate Ravings is the way to go.
I've been fiddling with my deck and these are the changes I've made to it. Misc. Moorland Haunt Aggro is one of the most-played decks, and a resolved Honor of the Pure puts most Humans I want to deal with out of the range of the Rolling Temblors, so I switched to Slagstorm. The ability to dome them for 3 late-game isn't bad either. Evil Twin was too mana-intensive, the Images are just plain better in that spot. I haven't played much with Pristine Talisman, but with how much flashback costs I can see where they fill a valuable role in the deck while healing you back up.
I am really wondering about using the Talismans. Right now I run 2x Snappys and 4x Phoenixs but thid life gainer sounds good. I took out Slagstorms but I may have to put them back in our SB.
well 1 sorin's for 1 sever seems good and the 3 slagstorm for 2 flashfreeze and one dissipate. the remaining 4 cards could replace 2 ravings and 2 snapcaster or one snapcaster and 3 ravings
You really want Snapcasters here because not only are they counterspells #8-#12, they are extra copies of Doom Blade. I'd have to cut the 3 Ravings, but they are what is helping me maintain CA while I attempt to one-for-one their threats. That's what has me torn. Although, I suppose you still have 8 draw spells, plus Snapcaster, and they have zero CA and a higher land count.
I kind of figured that sorin's wasn't staying. i upped geistflame to four because I ran across so many one defense creatures last wednesday. In addition last wednesday the only wolf run deck scrapped it after losing to my random junk GW deck with sideboard naturalize. I am sure there will be more of them this week, but we shall see.
so I dropped 2 sorin's for 1 doom blade and 1 dissipate and the talisman for a single ancient grudge main.
SB lost 3 ancient grudges and 1 frost titan to gain 2 negate and 2 nihil spell bomb
I like your list, but Devil's Play is a really big omission I feel, as well as Desperate Ravings. You are only running 8 draw spells, and I feel that might be cutting it a bit close, as that is one of the deck's major advantages.
Sorin's Vengeance is an interesting card. I dont mind the 1 of, and it can just win on the spot. I'll probably keep it as a win condition.
No Desperate Ravings. When I tested the deck at FNM, there was never really a time when I wanted to pitch a card at random. I ended up way too often pitching a BV or snappy. I've replaced with think twice and am perfectly ok without it. I realize that you may not think the same, but for now, dont try to argue with me as I am pretty set (lol).
Pristine Talisman is definitely a keeper. The point of our deck is to survive until we can establish a BV or two, or get the slagstorm/wrath. Don't think of these as just gaining 1 life, but rather I will gain 1 life per talisman every single turn. Plus it is a mana source to fuel our flashbacks.
Sever the Bloodline it never seemed usable against my current matches (though I would have loved it against the wurmcoil). I'm not sure if it will stay, but I'll keep it for now.
Consecrated sphinx. The guys a house. It doesnt die to much and you have counters to protect it. It will win the game if it lands.
Tribute to Hunger instant speed creature removal and life gain. It helps keep you alive. I really the 1 of main (I may try to get a 2nd) and additional SB.
Shrine of Burning Rage I'm not feeling the need for this card. Even against control I did not SB it in. Probably on the out
Mental Misstep: It wasnt too helpful, but then again I did not face down any graveyard hate. I'll keep it as a 2 of for now.
Frost Breath; It seems like a great stall tactic, though I need more testing against aggro to know for sure.
Disperse: really, really good against control. Miss countering that plainswalker? well, just bounce it and counter it on the way back down. The SB (if not main) could definitely use a few more of these.
IMO Devil's Play > Sorin's Vengeance, which your list notably lacks. The biggest thing for me is the early game flexibility. Devil's Play has won me more games than Sorin's by far. You don't need the lifegain as much now that you have Talisman.
The thing about Ravings is not that it's a fantastic card in itself, but that we want a colossal draw suite. Ravings is that third draw spell, until we get Faithless Looting (which will be a shoe-in over Ravings, BTW). I'm not leaving home with at least 2 copies, for now.
I really need to test Talisman. I will when I have more time, I've been busy lately.
Sever is an interesting card, I found it great initially and it randomly takes out multiples of cards, but often it's a slow Doom Blade. It's fantastic against Wurmcoil though, so I'd keep a singleton for now, especially with flashback.
Consecrated Sphinx, really? I'll try him out. He might be great SB material after they board out removal.
The Tribute doesn't seem necessary between Doom Blade, Slagstorm and Talisman, but again he could be great, especially vs Thrun or Dungrove Elder.
I agree with you on Shrine, it was very lacklustre.
Is Misstep just for Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction? I don't know that it's necessary, particularly because you need it in hand before they cast it.
I don't know that I'd want a fog effect vs aggro. Slagstorm just seems better. Let me know how it goes testing it.
I've never liked Disperse at all, especially because it feels like a really ****ty Into the Roil. If it works for you, let me know.
Final thoughts: Has anyone considered dropping B for W? We could keep a few duals for the flashback of forbidden alchemy, and then replace slagstorm with [all reaching] day of judgment or even divine reckoning . It would also let us play feeling of dread (a potential super stall tactic w/ flashback). I may have to do a design just to see how it runs.
I considered it, but Doom Blade is just so good in this metagame it's worth the black. It kills huge creatures (a big weakness in this deck), it's cheap, and it's instant speed. I am trying to shoehorn in a third copy MD, but I might just sideboard it.
Oblivion Ring and Feeling of Dread is a very nice package though. We'd have to play very heavy white for Day of Judgment, and Slagstorm does the job pretty well already, so I wouldn't play that. But white could be an option that warrants testing.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I honestly have no idea why I took them out, I added 2 to the sideboard again.
Last night was a disaster. 0-4. Only one opponent I got along with. It surprises me how generally rude magic players are. Anyway:
Game 1 vs wolf run...
Round one went to him after I saw only 1 blue mana with two dissipate in hand against inferno titan followed by primeval titan. The following round i saw one mountain and stalled the game out to turn 10 also seeing 2 think twice as my only draw spells and 3 mana leaks as my only other spells
Game 2 vs RDW...
Round one was great, triple vengeance turn 5 into ravings+FB and followed by double geistflame+fb to win.
Round 2 and 3 went and passed without more than 1 red mana source
game 3 and 4 were again vs wolf run that basically both hit round 1 thrun to my death. I was lacking mountains one game with 3 slagstorms in hand and he tapped out every turn failing to keep open regen on the troll.
I will be buying the duals after christmas is over to fix the mana. also 2 doomblade may leave my deck for 2 tribute to hunger. With better mana base i should not have had trouble with wolf run save thrun.
The pristine talisman is now 3 of in my deck as well but im back down to two dissipates, not sure if that is wise.
I am looking to build my deck online as well so I can play test it, so if anyone has any trades on there let me know.
IMO Devil's Play > Sorin's Vengeance, which your list notably lacks. The biggest thing for me is the early game flexibility. Devil's Play has won me more games than Sorin's by far. You don't need the lifegain as much now that you have Talisman.
Noted. I have devil's plays, but I didnt really feel that they were necessary. Ive been winning without them or for that matter without Sorin's Vengeance (notice I was pulling it for SB cards in more games)
The thing about Ravings is not that it's a fantastic card in itself, but that we want a colossal draw suite. Ravings is that third draw spell, until we get Faithless Looting (which will be a shoe-in over Ravings, BTW). I'm not leaving home with at least 2 copies, for now.
I agree that looting will defiantly be the 3rd draw spell for my deck when that set comes out. Currently, I run 8 draw spells and 2 other draw creatures (Sphinxes). For now they do Ok, but there have been a few times where I wished I had more draw. That being said, I almost think I would rather include Divination, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, or Visions of beyond. Every card but Visons is at Sorcery speed, and they all dont flash back naturally, but at least Im not discarding randomly.
Consecrated Sphinx, really? I'll try him out. He might be great SB material after they board out removal.
Even when they have removal, you have counters. Plus, if he sticks even 1 turn, you gain massive card advantage. I never try to land him before I have 8-9 land in play if I'm wary of removal.
If your worried about removal you could always run Sphinx of Uthuun. I've tested him in this build with favorable results. However, I would rather have the continual draw capabilities.
Is Misstep just for Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction? I don't know that it's necessary, particularly because you need it in hand before they cast it.
That was the original plan, but then I thought a bit and realized that I could just use a leak or dissipate (as long as I had mana available)
I don't know that I'd want a fog effect vs aggro. Slagstorm just seems better. Let me know how it goes testing it.
I shall :), but honestly, I am also running slagstorm. There are just times where it isnt in hand or cant kill the fatty (/ies). Frost breath will lock them down for 2 turns. That gives you a ton of time to come up with an answer.
I've never liked Disperse at all, especially because it feels like a really ****ty Into the Roil. If it works for you, let me know.
I dont try to compare this to into the roil as it is quite worse. But if you get into a counter war (or you are tapped out, or dont have a counter in hand) and your opponent does stick a plainswalker/enchantment/artifact/etc, there really isnt much you can do except to try to burn it out. Disperse allows you to get it off the field at a time when you can either counter it coming back down or deal with it in other means. Plus snappy can flash it back as a stall tactic if you cant deal with it otherwise.
Last night was a disaster. 0-4. Only one opponent I got along with. It surprises me how generally rude magic players are. Anyway:
Bummer, I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad night. Something as of late that I have been trying out against A**hole opponents is this. Every single game as I cut the deck to an opponent I say "good luck" (I expect every game to be cheerful and fun). 9/10 times I get a "you too" or "good luck as well" back from my opponent. However, there is the one rare time where my opponent doesnt say anything back. So, after I say "good luck" I start counting in my head. If I reach ~10 seconds and my opponent has not replied in a favorable manner, I then say "<cheerfully> Oh, I'm sorry, by good luck I actually meant <now forcefully> Go F**k yourself.". Then we play a very fun game (in my opinion). Now, I dont know what the store policies are in your area, but I'm a long time patron to my local venue, so I can get away with cursing out loud.
Bummer, I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad night. Something as of late that I have been trying out against A**hole opponents is this. Every single game as I cut the deck to an opponent I say "good luck" (I expect every game to be cheerful and fun). 9/10 times I get a "you too" or "good luck as well" back from my opponent. However, there is the one rare time where my opponent doesnt say anything back. So, after I say "good luck" I start counting in my head. If I reach ~10 seconds and my opponent has not replied in a favorable manner, I then say "<cheerfully> Oh, I'm sorry, by good luck I actually meant <now forcefully> Go F**k yourself.". Then we play a very fun game (in my opinion). Now, I dont know what the store policies are in your area, but I'm a long time patron to my local venue, so I can get away with cursing out loud.
Lol, nice. It isn't so much the Good luck part, as one opponent, after I lost mentioned that if I couldn't afford a "real" deck, I should go home and stop wasting his time. Most of the people there respond with Ya or you too after I say good luck, most even shake my hand when I offer the good luck. This week though was a lot of out of towners I hear so I assume its a one time thing as last week only had one negative game, and it was one I actually won.
I agree that looting will defiantly be the 3rd draw spell for my deck when that set comes out. Currently, I run 8 draw spells and 2 other draw creatures (Sphinxes). For now they do Ok, but there have been a few times where I wished I had more draw. That being said, I almost think I would rather include Divination, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, or Visions of beyond. Every card but Visons is at Sorcery speed, and they all dont flash back naturally, but at least Im not discarding randomly.
Talked to a guy with a URG version of the deck running primeval titan and other land searching cards, he ran all of these and two copies of past in flames. He said it was fun to watch them panic kill titan and then play past and vengeance to win the following turn.
So I guess if you run past then maybe you could run more draw, but I don't know how good that is. I feel like with my control aspects I have enough draw.
I cut the Snapcaster because I realised just how few targets we are running in the deck (9 +/- slagstorm). I also noticed that it sits in my hand a lot of the time, so 3 seems an appropriate number.
I'm trying out Tribute to Hunger in the Sever the Bloodline slot. Hopefully Ancient Grudge will be enough to deal with Wurmcoil Engine, but if it becomes an issue I will have to swap them back.
Surgical Extraction will work really well against control (it always has, in other decks, for me) and also give me tech against the mirror. It's also amazing with Snapcaster as a Cabal Therapy.
I will be buying the duals after christmas is over to fix the mana. also 2 doomblade may leave my deck for 2 tribute to hunger. With better mana base i should not have had trouble with wolf run save thrun.
The pristine talisman is now 3 of in my deck as well but im back down to two dissipates, not sure if that is wise.
I am looking to build my deck online as well so I can play test it, so if anyone has any trades on there let me know.
Sorry to hear about the crap night, better luck for next time.
I was only running 2 Dissipates in the first place anyway, and 3 Talisman could work simply because multiples function as lands and the effect starts to avalanche, gaining 2 life per turn.
I don't know about cutting Doom Blade for Tributes. Tribute is not targeted, remember, so while it may help with lifegain and hexproof, the next time you're staring down a Hero of Bladehold and a Birds of Paradise, you'll be sorry you swapped them.
I agree that looting will defiantly be the 3rd draw spell for my deck when that set comes out. Currently, I run 8 draw spells and 2 other draw creatures (Sphinxes). For now they do Ok, but there have been a few times where I wished I had more draw. That being said, I almost think I would rather include Divination, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, or Visions of beyond. Every card but Visons is at Sorcery speed, and they all dont flash back naturally, but at least Im not discarding randomly.
I wouldn't count Sphinx as draw, I always treat him as a win condition. He will take over the game, but only if he sticks. Forbidden Alchemy/Think Twice will almost always resolve, but it won't win the game singlehandedly. That is the difference - one costs a boatload and must be protected, the other is just one cog in an engine. You're cutting the cog for the Sherman tank, and I'm not sure it's going to work.
Even when they have removal, you have counters. Plus, if he sticks even 1 turn, you gain massive card advantage. I never try to land him before I have 8-9 land in play if I'm wary of removal.
If your worried about removal you could always run Sphinx of Uthuun. I've tested him in this build with favorable results. However, I would rather have the continual draw capabilities.
You can't rely on having the counters to protect it, because your counters are more often used to deal with their creatures. Obviously if it sticks it will win you the game, but so will Wurmcoil Engine - just that Wurmcoil is much harder to kill. If I were to run any creature maindeck, it would either be Chandra's Phoenix, or Wurmcoil Engine.
Sphinx of Uthuun is terrible because it doesn't have a recurring effect and the body isn't what you're looking for. If it is, Wurmcoil is waaaaay better.
I shall :), but honestly, I am also running slagstorm. There are just times where it isnt in hand or cant kill the fatty (/ies). Frost breath will lock them down for 2 turns. That gives you a ton of time to come up with an answer.
Frost Breath actually doesn't seem too bad at all, now that I think about it. It will give you time to find answers and cast draw spells/BV rather than removal every turn. I'm going to try it in my list, although more Doom Blades could work in the same slot as well.
It also seems nuts against Illusions, as a functional Reckless Spite.
I dont try to compare this to into the roil as it is quite worse. But if you get into a counter war (or you are tapped out, or dont have a counter in hand) and your opponent does stick a plainswalker/enchantment/artifact/etc, there really isnt much you can do except to try to burn it out. Disperse allows you to get it off the field at a time when you can either counter it coming back down or deal with it in other means. Plus snappy can flash it back as a stall tactic if you cant deal with it otherwise.
The only problem with that is, if you've lost the counterwar, it shouldn't be for lack of mana - they've had to tap a number of mana for the threat in the first place - it will be because they have more counterspells. Consequently, Dispersing it only means it comes back a turn later. Quite often, it will do absolutely nothing (Liliana of the Veil, Consecrated Sphinx) or be worse for you (Sun Titan, Grave Titan).
I can see it being good with Snapcaster though, but really Snapcaster should be getting a counterspell in the first place instead of having to Disperse to deal with a resolved threat. I would rather Surgical Extraction their counters away in the first place so it doesn't actually get through. Note that, depending on the situation, they will not necessarily prioritise Extracting your counters over cards like Forbidden Alchemy, Burning Vengeance or Devil's Play. This also gives you an advantage in extracting their counters when they aren't responding in kind.
Talked to a guy with a URG version of the deck running primeval titan and other land searching cards, he ran all of these and two copies of past in flames. He said it was fun to watch them panic kill titan and then play past and vengeance to win the following turn.
So I guess if you run past then maybe you could run more draw, but I don't know how good that is. I feel like with my control aspects I have enough draw.
Past in Flames requires a crapload of burn to be good. When it is good, it's absolutely insane and will instant-kill them. I don't see much reason to run it over Devil's Play though, especially as the only cards without flashback are counterspells or a few Doom Blades. You would have to be running a lot of cheap burn (at least 8-10 non-geistflame burn spells) or a bunch of free Phyrexian spells for it to work. It's almost an entirely different deck.
I'll see if I can link you to the article that talks about comboing BV with Mirror-mad Phantasm, Past in Flames and Phyrexian spells.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
@Jaden, your list looks like its running on one win con basically, Burning Vengance.
It would be much wiser imo to go the creature route and add in 3 Pheonix and 3 delver.
Devil's Play is a win-con. It replaced Sorin's Vengeance and I found it more consistently killed opponents. Normally I win with a combination of the two, but either works on its own. I might add a third to the list, but the one I posted is testing a bunch of concepts on their own.
You make a good point about Phoenix. I could go that route, but it really doesn't suit my playstyle. I really am a draw-go kinda guy, and I'm not a big fan of running small creatures to win with. Running them in the board vs Control might be an idea, but keep in mind the beatdown and control roles.
You can play either role G2 vs control depending on your list. You run about the same amount of permission, the same or more Surgical Extractions, but have the edge in winning with an incremental advantage - Burning Vengeance. You run more card draw than them (which reminds me of why I shouldn't have gone down to 2 Ravings) and have more removal postboard, which is why you should be playing the control role. In addition, the two Devil's Play can be used twice each to threaten near-lethal, which means they can never, ever tap out.
Conclusion: I will keep it in mind if my Sideboard space frees up, but for now it's not for me. I'll stick to my Devil's play.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
2 Druidic Satchel
Enchantments [4]
4 Burning Vengeance
Sorceries and Instants [30]
4 Think Twice
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Geistflame
4 Mana Leak
2 Devil's Play
1 Tribute to Hunger
3 Rolling Temblor
1 Sever the Bloodlines
2 Dissipate
1 Disperse
6 Island
6 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rolling Temblor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Evil Twin
2 Dissipate
1 Doom Blade
1 Sever the Bloodlines
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Arc Trail
1 Flashfreeze
2 Wurmcoil Engine
The Evil Twins in the board are just there for Thrun (I didn't want to pay for Metamorphs or Images), I only wish there was a more efficient way of dealing with him. I don't know how I feel about the Wurmcoil Engines, but I bought two for a Grand Architect deck I made awhile back and I wanted to use them. They're OK post-board, after your opponent boards out creature removal, but I've had them be copied by my opponents Images too many times...
@jadencamelot I like how you don't use Jace. He seemed way too beefy for what he does in this deck. Shrines helped a lot better. I run 2 Witchbane, just for the Mirror which surprisingly, there were 4 BV decks at last FNM.
I love control and don't have much cash to spend on magic and heard about UR vengeance and loved it, but jadencamelot, I fell in love with your deck.
I can basically run your deck barring lands and snapcaster mage so I did make a few changes more to my taste but my issue was the mana base.
I have 2 drowned catacomb and 3 Rootbound crag in my deck atm, other than that I run 4 swamp 7 Island and 8 mountains. I also run a single talisman.
In addition to all that my SB looks a bit different because of my meta. I have 4 slots open that are filled with ancient grudge, but i want to drop that to 2. I know there will be a few solar flare and 1 UB control as well as a UB tezz infect as well as a few red deck wins. Other than that its humans tokens and maybe some random wolf run.
Solar flare is the one that seems the most difficult to this deck and i was wondering if any of you had some advice for a two of for the sideboard or any advice vs this decks worse match ups.
I changes my list up a bit from last night and now run 2 Trinket Mages in the sideboard with Nihil Spellbomb and a single Elixir of Immortality. Our lists are probably a bit different, but I board like this against most Solar Flare decks.
-3 Rolling Temblor
-2 Druidic Satchel
+2 Trinket Mage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Sever the Bloodlines
I don't need to clear out the board, so the Temblors come out, and you don't get full value out of the Satchels unless you're playing a faster deck. I really like to use the Spellbombs at least twice in this matchup, and with all the card-draw we play you're almost guaranteed to see the two of them. I agree that this is one of our worst match-ups though, big creatures are never going to be easy for this deck to take out.
4 Burning Vengeance
Instant
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
2 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Geistflame
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
Artifact
1 Pristine Talisman
2 Devil's Play
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Slagstorm
2 Sorin's Vengeance
Land
2 Drowned Catacomb
7 Island
8 Mountain
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Swamp
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Devil's Play
2 Frost Titan
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
thats my deck, hope it is okay to post. It is mostly theory based on what I saw last week and talk between the people i play with. My sideboard could probably use a lot of work. I might point out that all the cards above a dollar in the deck are being lent to me atm, except for the slagstorm.
that is the main reason for my choices for the cards in my deck and sideboard. Frost Titan was recommended to play vs control game two where creature removal will generally be taken out and you can keep a grave titantapped.
May drop the sorin's vengeancefor a tribute to hunger and actually might add the satchel to replace the other sorin's vengeance and pristine talisman
Tribute to Hunger is an interesting call. Is that a metagame decision, or just a catch-all against trollshroud? Do you find you have a weakness there?
Also note that Evil Twin requires black, so if you could find a copy or two of Image/Metamorph it would probably be better. Although it could randomly beat the crap out of Wolf Run, by copying a Primeval Titan and blowing them up.
Also I don't know about the maindeck Disperse. It seems like a 4th copy of something else would be better in that slot, though again it's not a bad catch-all. I just feel that the card is pretty marginal unless you need it against something specific (Shrine of Burning Rage), and it needs to be coupled with a counterspell to work.
Lol, I didn't even think of Jace. I wouldn't have run him simply because he provides no immediate advantage, you have to wait at least a turn before his effect becomes relevant, and that could quite easily be the turn you die. He's only good if you're already winning (except against control, but then you have to tap out).
And wow, that's a lot of BV in your meta. I agree with Witchbane orb. It's a beating. You might even want to play 3, simply because they'll be boarding in Ancient Grudges.
I run 4 Mana Leak, 2 Dissipate main, and board in 2 Dissipate. This also gives me an edge in the Wolf Run matchup, which is the other matchup whose huge creatures give Burning Vengeance a bit of grief. I was actually considering turning my control sideboard on its head, actually, and boarding in Surgical Extractions and Negates instead of Shrines. I will, however, test this before I recommend it.
Also while the Trinket Mages seem cool, there is no reason not to simply run more spellbombs. You're not running any other 1 CMC artifacts, so there is no package. You might as well draw another copy and it'll be easier to get through their permission, because you don't have to tap 3 mana for Trinket Mage first. Even if the third copy is dead, it always cantrips. It'll also help with the mirror a lot.
See above for comments vs Solar Flare.
Snapcaster Mage was generally meant to flashback countermagic and Doom Blades. This means my list is effectively running 10 counterspells and 4-5 Doom Blades (it's not really 6 because you have to draw a Doom Blade in the first place). I would try to play an extra Dissipate and an extra Doom Blade, then fill up the other two slots with other stuff (because I wouldn't advise running 4 of either). An extra Geistflame is fine, and an extra Slagstorm or Sever the Bloodline wouldn't hurt. The latter is a particularly versatile card and I have taken a personal liking to it, but it's up to you.
Sorin's Vengeance fills the same role as Devil's Play: to fireball your opponent for the win. The key differences here are:
1) Sorin's requires triple black.
2) Sorin's gains life.
3) Devil's play comes with Flashback.
4) Devil's play costs a whopping 11 mana to deal 10 damage.
5) Sorin's is an instant kill with Snapcaster.
6) Devil's play targets creatures.
7) Devil's play does NOT require Snapcaster to kill.
8) Devil's play good early game; Sorin's is not.
9) Devil's play is extremely versatile; Sorin's is not.
Really, I think point 8# is the number one, and it comes back to the essence of this deck. Your early game is what needs help, not the lategame. Devil's play works in BOTH the late and early game, so my vote goes to Devil's play.
It seems to me that the issue with this deck is surviving to the late game. You have the strongest lategame of any deck in standard, beating even 'the' control decks. Against aggro, the issues you face are simply being able to remove their threats FAST enough to survive.
Also, as an upside, you're perfectly happy to dump a Devil's play off an Alchemy, while you want to spew after dumping a Sorin's Vengeance for the Mana Leak you needed.
EDIT: From my decklist, ignoring the sideboard, what can I board out for Wolf Run? There are a large number of cards that I want to bring in, but only the Slagstorms strike me as subpar for the matchup. I am tempted to board out Geistflames, but they help in the matchup too. Against Wolf Run you want a boatload of counters, plus a few removal spells to deal with any resolved bombs. Ideally I want to bring in:
+3 Phantasmal Image
+2 Dissipate
+2 Flashfreeze
+1 Sever the Bloodline
But I can't work out what to board out. Help?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
I just sleeved the deck, and it is completely untested (going to goldfish now)...but I was wondering what you guys thought of nephalia drownyard ?
I put 2 in my list, just cause it seems really good late game, if your opponent is at 2 life or something, and you need flashback cards in your GY.
Like I said - I havent tested, so I have no idea if the 2 drownyards will hurt the manabase, but I thought it would be a good inclusion!
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
well 1 sorin's for 1 sever seems good and the 3 slagstorm for 2 flashfreeze and one dissipate. the remaining 4 cards could replace 2 ravings and 2 snapcaster or one snapcaster and 3 ravings
I kind of figured that sorin's wasn't staying. i upped geistflame to four because I ran across so many one defense creatures last wednesday. In addition last wednesday the only wolf run deck scrapped it after losing to my random junk GW deck with sideboard naturalize. I am sure there will be more of them this week, but we shall see.
so I dropped 2 sorin's for 1 doom blade and 1 dissipate and the talisman for a single ancient grudge main.
SB lost 3 ancient grudges and 1 frost titan to gain 2 negate and 2 nihil spell bomb
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Consecrated Sphinx
Artifacts (3)
3x Pristine Talisman
Enchantments (4)
4x Burning Vengeance
Instants (20)
4x Mana Leak
2x Dissipate
3x Geistflame
2x Doom Blade
1x Tribute to Hunger
4x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Think Twice
1x Sorin's Vengeance
2x Slagstorm
1x Sever the Bloodline
Land (24)
6x Island
4x Mountain
3x Drowned Catacomb
3x Dragonskull Summit
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Shimmering Grotto
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Flashfreeze
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Shrine of Burning Rage
1x Tribute to Hunger
2x Mental Misstep
1x Disperse
2x Frost Breath
I took this deck to TNM
R1: vs U// Burning Vengeance: I win 2-0 mainly off the back off pristine talisman. A lot of counter wars ensued in both games, and everyone just played draw-go. But he only managed to land 1 BV in either game, and my talismans did counter most damage. A scary spot in Game 2 when he resolved a Rite of flame and hit me with phyrexian spells and a BV in play. But when it was all said and done he and I were both at 11. I did not give him a change to flash it back.
SB: +2x Surgical Extraction, +1x Disperse, +2x Flashfreeze, +2x Mental Misstep. -1x Sorin's Vengeance, -1x Sever the Bloodline, -2x Slagstorm, -2x Doom Blade, -1x Tribute to Hunger.
R2: vs G/ Wolves. I win this round 2-0. To be fair, both games my opponent is slightly color-screwed. That being said, counters, snappy, and geistflames keep the board clear until I can land a BV. I then just shock everything that lands and bury my opponent in card advantage. I bin the Sorin's Vengeance and then flash /w snappy it back G1 for 14 damage and the win (2 BV in play). Game 2 is similar but I win off the back of 2 geistflames that do 7 dmg apiece (3 BV in play).
SB: +3x Flashfreeze, +2x Frost Breath, +1x tribute to hunger. -3x mana leak, -1x sorin's vengeance, -1x consecrated sphinx.
R3: vs Grixis Control (not too far off from Chaplin's build). I lose a heartbreaker 2-1. Game 1 goes long. He counters wars my first talisman, but I land the second. He is just throwing burn at my head, but the talisman keeps me in it. BV gets me there comfortably. I only see snappies and olivia, so, I mistakenly board out slagstorm and doom blades.
Game 2 my opponent muls, then keeps 6 after shrugging. T1 Delver. T2 it flips and he plays a 2nd. T3 that one flips, and it is just about all over. After the hand my opponent admits to keeping a 4 land 2 delver hand... Lucky on the draws eh?
More SBing before Game 3. In game 3 he lands an early chandra and is threatening ultimate really fast. I am keeping it below 6 with geistflames and BV (1 in play), but cant find the gas to kill it (he did not side out his creature removal, though I only had snappies at this point). I finally draw my disperse and bounce the plainwalker, then flashfreeze it on the way back down. I'm getting really low in life off the domed burn, but I do have a talisman in play. I land a 2nd BV, and he lands a liliana making us both discard. I then make a big mistake. My opponent only has 1 card in hand, so I main phase tap out to flashback an Alchemy and point 4 dmg at liliana. I have 2x disperse in hand after the alchemy. My opponent draws and plays a Wurmcoil, still with 1 card in hand. I again (main phase) drop a snappy to flash back my binned tribute. This make my opponent sac the wurmcoil and I gain 6 life to 15 (and do him 4 damage off the BV's). he then draws and plays a land, then attacks me to 12 (I chump a token with snappy). I draw and pass. He draws (up to 2 cards in hand now) and attacks me with both tokens. I flashback another alchemy to kill the deathtouch token, and he shows me the 2x brimstone volleys to kill me (I had the 2x dissipate in hand, but no mana to use after paying 7 for the alchemy). Again amazing draws on his point, while I tapped out in the wrong turns to deal with threats.
SB (not going to show, as I SB'd wrong post G1 and was not happy with post G2 SB'ing).
Thoughts:
Final thoughts: Has anyone considered dropping B for W? We could keep a few duals for the flashback of forbidden alchemy, and then replace slagstorm with [all reaching] day of judgment or even divine reckoning . It would also let us play feeling of dread (a potential super stall tactic w/ flashback). I may have to do a design just to see how it runs.
EDH:▼
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The only reasoning i see to run ravings over think twice is that ravings pumps your shrine. I personally like it because I don't run snappy so not much to lose, except maybe counters.
I may have to fit in some room for the talisman again, I know 2 people running RDW and possibly 3 UR vengeance.
white seems like it could be powerful, but if you are getting white to wipe big creatures that slagstorm can't deal with, then I would take day over divine reckoning. The reasoning is that big creatures don't tend to hit the board in waves like the smaller one does, and if i was playing against this deck and had to choose one creature to keep, i would stick with the hardest to kill one.
although reckoning could be very useful vs creature based aggro, especially with the flashback, I still prefer the ability of slagstorm to deal direct damage late game if i need it to.
I have noticed a few shimmering grotto in the decks, but was wondering if it was really worth it, seems easy to get, but having colored mana fast seems a bit better.
I use Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of for 2 reasons. A) I'm only running 24 land and I want better mana fixing for 3 color deck, and B)it gives me the ability to flash-back Ancient Grudge without actually having G mana lands.
EDH:▼
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This
That looks like a good mixture to me, alternatively you could take out 2 Think Twice, a Snapcaster, and a Geistflame for the last 4. I'm not sure taking out all the Desperate Ravings is the way to go.
I've been fiddling with my deck and these are the changes I've made to it. Misc. Moorland Haunt Aggro is one of the most-played decks, and a resolved Honor of the Pure puts most Humans I want to deal with out of the range of the Rolling Temblors, so I switched to Slagstorm. The ability to dome them for 3 late-game isn't bad either. Evil Twin was too mana-intensive, the Images are just plain better in that spot. I haven't played much with Pristine Talisman, but with how much flashback costs I can see where they fill a valuable role in the deck while healing you back up.
1 Druidic Satchel
3 Pristine Talisman
Enchantments [4]
4 Burning Vengeance
Sorceries and Instants [28]
4 Think Twice
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Geistflame
2 Devil's Play
1 Tribute to Hunger
3 Slagstorm
1 Sever the Bloodlines
6 Island
6 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Shimmering Grotto
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Disperse
1 Slagstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Dissipate
1 Doom Blade
1 Sever the Bloodlines
2 Flashfreeze
Nothing is better than slagstorming an opponent to death.
You really want Snapcasters here because not only are they counterspells #8-#12, they are extra copies of Doom Blade. I'd have to cut the 3 Ravings, but they are what is helping me maintain CA while I attempt to one-for-one their threats. That's what has me torn. Although, I suppose you still have 8 draw spells, plus Snapcaster, and they have zero CA and a higher land count.
Why did you cut the SB Ancient Grudges?
I like your list, but Devil's Play is a really big omission I feel, as well as Desperate Ravings. You are only running 8 draw spells, and I feel that might be cutting it a bit close, as that is one of the deck's major advantages.
IMO Devil's Play > Sorin's Vengeance, which your list notably lacks. The biggest thing for me is the early game flexibility. Devil's Play has won me more games than Sorin's by far. You don't need the lifegain as much now that you have Talisman.
The thing about Ravings is not that it's a fantastic card in itself, but that we want a colossal draw suite. Ravings is that third draw spell, until we get Faithless Looting (which will be a shoe-in over Ravings, BTW). I'm not leaving home with at least 2 copies, for now.
I really need to test Talisman. I will when I have more time, I've been busy lately.
Sever is an interesting card, I found it great initially and it randomly takes out multiples of cards, but often it's a slow Doom Blade. It's fantastic against Wurmcoil though, so I'd keep a singleton for now, especially with flashback.
Consecrated Sphinx, really? I'll try him out. He might be great SB material after they board out removal.
The Tribute doesn't seem necessary between Doom Blade, Slagstorm and Talisman, but again he could be great, especially vs Thrun or Dungrove Elder.
I agree with you on Shrine, it was very lacklustre.
Is Misstep just for Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction? I don't know that it's necessary, particularly because you need it in hand before they cast it.
I don't know that I'd want a fog effect vs aggro. Slagstorm just seems better. Let me know how it goes testing it.
I've never liked Disperse at all, especially because it feels like a really ****ty Into the Roil. If it works for you, let me know.
I considered it, but Doom Blade is just so good in this metagame it's worth the black. It kills huge creatures (a big weakness in this deck), it's cheap, and it's instant speed. I am trying to shoehorn in a third copy MD, but I might just sideboard it.
Oblivion Ring and Feeling of Dread is a very nice package though. We'd have to play very heavy white for Day of Judgment, and Slagstorm does the job pretty well already, so I wouldn't play that. But white could be an option that warrants testing.
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Last night was a disaster. 0-4. Only one opponent I got along with. It surprises me how generally rude magic players are. Anyway:
Game 1 vs wolf run...
Round one went to him after I saw only 1 blue mana with two dissipate in hand against inferno titan followed by primeval titan. The following round i saw one mountain and stalled the game out to turn 10 also seeing 2 think twice as my only draw spells and 3 mana leaks as my only other spells
Game 2 vs RDW...
Round one was great, triple vengeance turn 5 into ravings+FB and followed by double geistflame+fb to win.
Round 2 and 3 went and passed without more than 1 red mana source
game 3 and 4 were again vs wolf run that basically both hit round 1 thrun to my death. I was lacking mountains one game with 3 slagstorms in hand and he tapped out every turn failing to keep open regen on the troll.
I will be buying the duals after christmas is over to fix the mana. also 2 doomblade may leave my deck for 2 tribute to hunger. With better mana base i should not have had trouble with wolf run save thrun.
The pristine talisman is now 3 of in my deck as well but im back down to two dissipates, not sure if that is wise.
I am looking to build my deck online as well so I can play test it, so if anyone has any trades on there let me know.
Noted. I have devil's plays, but I didnt really feel that they were necessary. Ive been winning without them or for that matter without Sorin's Vengeance (notice I was pulling it for SB cards in more games)
I agree that looting will defiantly be the 3rd draw spell for my deck when that set comes out. Currently, I run 8 draw spells and 2 other draw creatures (Sphinxes). For now they do Ok, but there have been a few times where I wished I had more draw. That being said, I almost think I would rather include Divination, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, or Visions of beyond. Every card but Visons is at Sorcery speed, and they all dont flash back naturally, but at least Im not discarding randomly.
Even when they have removal, you have counters. Plus, if he sticks even 1 turn, you gain massive card advantage. I never try to land him before I have 8-9 land in play if I'm wary of removal.
If your worried about removal you could always run Sphinx of Uthuun. I've tested him in this build with favorable results. However, I would rather have the continual draw capabilities.
That's what it's in there for (mainly), though even knocking off an early bear will gain you potentially enough life to get to late game.
That was the original plan, but then I thought a bit and realized that I could just use a leak or dissipate (as long as I had mana available)
I shall :), but honestly, I am also running slagstorm. There are just times where it isnt in hand or cant kill the fatty (/ies). Frost breath will lock them down for 2 turns. That gives you a ton of time to come up with an answer.
I dont try to compare this to into the roil as it is quite worse. But if you get into a counter war (or you are tapped out, or dont have a counter in hand) and your opponent does stick a plainswalker/enchantment/artifact/etc, there really isnt much you can do except to try to burn it out. Disperse allows you to get it off the field at a time when you can either counter it coming back down or deal with it in other means. Plus snappy can flash it back as a stall tactic if you cant deal with it otherwise.
Bummer, I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad night. Something as of late that I have been trying out against A**hole opponents is this. Every single game as I cut the deck to an opponent I say "good luck" (I expect every game to be cheerful and fun). 9/10 times I get a "you too" or "good luck as well" back from my opponent. However, there is the one rare time where my opponent doesnt say anything back. So, after I say "good luck" I start counting in my head. If I reach ~10 seconds and my opponent has not replied in a favorable manner, I then say "<cheerfully> Oh, I'm sorry, by good luck I actually meant <now forcefully> Go F**k yourself.". Then we play a very fun game (in my opinion). Now, I dont know what the store policies are in your area, but I'm a long time patron to my local venue, so I can get away with cursing out loud.
EDH:▼
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Lol, nice. It isn't so much the Good luck part, as one opponent, after I lost mentioned that if I couldn't afford a "real" deck, I should go home and stop wasting his time. Most of the people there respond with Ya or you too after I say good luck, most even shake my hand when I offer the good luck. This week though was a lot of out of towners I hear so I assume its a one time thing as last week only had one negative game, and it was one I actually won.
Talked to a guy with a URG version of the deck running primeval titan and other land searching cards, he ran all of these and two copies of past in flames. He said it was fun to watch them panic kill titan and then play past and vengeance to win the following turn.
So I guess if you run past then maybe you could run more draw, but I don't know how good that is. I feel like with my control aspects I have enough draw.
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Pristine Talisman
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Think Twice
2 Desperate Ravings
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Geistflame
2 Doom Blade
1 Tribute to Hunger
3 Slagstorm
2 Devil's Play
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Island
6 Mountain
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Frost Breath
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dissipate
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Surgical Extraction
I cut the Snapcaster because I realised just how few targets we are running in the deck (9 +/- slagstorm). I also noticed that it sits in my hand a lot of the time, so 3 seems an appropriate number.
I'm trying out Tribute to Hunger in the Sever the Bloodline slot. Hopefully Ancient Grudge will be enough to deal with Wurmcoil Engine, but if it becomes an issue I will have to swap them back.
Surgical Extraction will work really well against control (it always has, in other decks, for me) and also give me tech against the mirror. It's also amazing with Snapcaster as a Cabal Therapy.
Sorry to hear about the crap night, better luck for next time.
I was only running 2 Dissipates in the first place anyway, and 3 Talisman could work simply because multiples function as lands and the effect starts to avalanche, gaining 2 life per turn.
I don't know about cutting Doom Blade for Tributes. Tribute is not targeted, remember, so while it may help with lifegain and hexproof, the next time you're staring down a Hero of Bladehold and a Birds of Paradise, you'll be sorry you swapped them.
I wouldn't count Sphinx as draw, I always treat him as a win condition. He will take over the game, but only if he sticks. Forbidden Alchemy/Think Twice will almost always resolve, but it won't win the game singlehandedly. That is the difference - one costs a boatload and must be protected, the other is just one cog in an engine. You're cutting the cog for the Sherman tank, and I'm not sure it's going to work.
You can't rely on having the counters to protect it, because your counters are more often used to deal with their creatures. Obviously if it sticks it will win you the game, but so will Wurmcoil Engine - just that Wurmcoil is much harder to kill. If I were to run any creature maindeck, it would either be Chandra's Phoenix, or Wurmcoil Engine.
Sphinx of Uthuun is terrible because it doesn't have a recurring effect and the body isn't what you're looking for. If it is, Wurmcoil is waaaaay better.
Frost Breath actually doesn't seem too bad at all, now that I think about it. It will give you time to find answers and cast draw spells/BV rather than removal every turn. I'm going to try it in my list, although more Doom Blades could work in the same slot as well.
It also seems nuts against Illusions, as a functional Reckless Spite.
The only problem with that is, if you've lost the counterwar, it shouldn't be for lack of mana - they've had to tap a number of mana for the threat in the first place - it will be because they have more counterspells. Consequently, Dispersing it only means it comes back a turn later. Quite often, it will do absolutely nothing (Liliana of the Veil, Consecrated Sphinx) or be worse for you (Sun Titan, Grave Titan).
I can see it being good with Snapcaster though, but really Snapcaster should be getting a counterspell in the first place instead of having to Disperse to deal with a resolved threat. I would rather Surgical Extraction their counters away in the first place so it doesn't actually get through. Note that, depending on the situation, they will not necessarily prioritise Extracting your counters over cards like Forbidden Alchemy, Burning Vengeance or Devil's Play. This also gives you an advantage in extracting their counters when they aren't responding in kind.
Past in Flames requires a crapload of burn to be good. When it is good, it's absolutely insane and will instant-kill them. I don't see much reason to run it over Devil's Play though, especially as the only cards without flashback are counterspells or a few Doom Blades. You would have to be running a lot of cheap burn (at least 8-10 non-geistflame burn spells) or a bunch of free Phyrexian spells for it to work. It's almost an entirely different deck.
I'll see if I can link you to the article that talks about comboing BV with Mirror-mad Phantasm, Past in Flames and Phyrexian spells.
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
It would be much wiser imo to go the creature route and add in 3 Pheonix and 3 delver.
Devil's Play is a win-con. It replaced Sorin's Vengeance and I found it more consistently killed opponents. Normally I win with a combination of the two, but either works on its own. I might add a third to the list, but the one I posted is testing a bunch of concepts on their own.
You make a good point about Phoenix. I could go that route, but it really doesn't suit my playstyle. I really am a draw-go kinda guy, and I'm not a big fan of running small creatures to win with. Running them in the board vs Control might be an idea, but keep in mind the beatdown and control roles.
You can play either role G2 vs control depending on your list. You run about the same amount of permission, the same or more Surgical Extractions, but have the edge in winning with an incremental advantage - Burning Vengeance. You run more card draw than them (which reminds me of why I shouldn't have gone down to 2 Ravings) and have more removal postboard, which is why you should be playing the control role. In addition, the two Devil's Play can be used twice each to threaten near-lethal, which means they can never, ever tap out.
Conclusion: I will keep it in mind if my Sideboard space frees up, but for now it's not for me. I'll stick to my Devil's play.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes: