I personally prefer it in GBW with a U and R splash...Not five color though...the W and R are strictly recursion creatures or they have an alternate flashback cost that works. I also prefer the Zombie Infestation route. I also run four Chancellor of the Tangle...it goes something like this...
It's pretty solid...without Zombie Infestation, I use cards such as Mulch to start the fun, as well as keep it going. Working on putting in more token generators as it's just plain fun.
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-If I was that Mike Long, my DCI rating would be higher.-
-I'd spend more money on cards if I didn't have a beautiful woman to spend it for me.-
I personally prefer it in GBW with a U and R splash...Not five color though...the W and R are strictly recursion creatures or they have an alternate flashback cost that works. I also prefer the Zombie Infestation route. I also run four Chancellor of the Tangle...it goes something like this...
It's pretty solid...without Zombie Infestation, I use cards such as Mulch to start the fun, as well as keep it going. Working on putting in more token generators as it's just plain fun.
One simple question, going by this, you're taking into consideration that your opponent doesn't throw anything out nor disrupt you in anyway whatsoever right...?
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the sharpest steel is tempered in fire!!! though the plane of mirrodin is lost, the fire of mirrans still burn!!!!!
So u either forgot ur helmet or u dont understand how to be hypothetical...thats the whole point of a hand walkthru to demonstrate what its capable of...next time try to think before u type. There is normally a threat or some sort of disruption but that could b any card or any creature so whats the point of naming any...
Warning for poor language and condescending content.
-Sene
Currently Running:
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-If I was that Mike Long, my DCI rating would be higher.-
-I'd spend more money on cards if I didn't have a beautiful woman to spend it for me.-
Ive been testing out the deck and I like it, but it needs work. It cant really interact with the opponent at all without playing more non creature spells. If they drop a bomb or sword, I cant really do anything about it.
So far, Ive just been trying to live as long as I can and then trying to win later on with Postmortem Lunge.
So how about some of these remaining cards from today?
Screeching Skaab is an aggressive Armored Skaab at turn 2, conveniently dropping BEFORE Splinterfright instead of butting heads for turn 3's attention. Mills fewer but I would say is more valuable on the field. Geralf's Mindcrusher I guess is the rare 'bomby' version but I'm not sure it's the turn 6 heavy in blue play we're looking for. Undying could end up mattering, but for that mana you could likely drop 2 10/10s at this point in the game.
And speaking of Ghoultree, Artful Dodge is just the evasion we wished he had for super-cheap, from the graveyard. Draw it, mill it, whatever, still scary.
Mulch now has a new 2-drop friend in the form of Tracker's Instincts? A much friendlier looking version of Forbidden Alchemy, though it doesn't remove the black splash needed for spider spawning.
Grim Flowering seems like it's in a bad spot. At turn 6 it could draw a new hand quite easily, but our card advantage is already in the form of flashback and this could be too late for our average match-ups. Also not thrilled to be trying to find more room for non-creatures.
Dawntreader Elk is an on-demand land haste and fixer with a tougher body than Viridian Emissary. The cost to sacrifice makes it prohibitive but our opponents can't easily bounce or exile it to deny the land like the elf.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
I personally prefer it in GBW with a U and R splash...Not five color though...the W and R are strictly recursion creatures or they have an alternate flashback cost that works. I also prefer the Zombie Infestation route. I also run four Chancellor of the Tangle...it goes something like this...
It's pretty solid...without Zombie Infestation, I use cards such as Mulch to start the fun, as well as keep it going. Working on putting in more token generators as it's just plain fun.
this is more of an attempt at a 4 color solarflare....
i know it seems the same but the concepts are different
Between the Elk and creature only Forbidden Alchemy I think we'll reliably be able to get out our jacket wearing twig monster out on turn three as a 1/1 at the least. And I know, it dies to Doom Blade, Dismember, GffT, and Gut Shot but so does most of standard.
I'm thinking some sort of 4/2 or maybe 3/2 split between Forbidden Alchemy and Trackers Instincts. I also think the zombie tree will be a nice 2-of in our deck too! After actually looking at the cards it actually seems like this deck got A LOT more consistent.
I'm very excited to pick some of these cards up and play this at the first DKA legal FNM. This is just such a fun archetype to play. All we need now is a utility creature to deal with GY hate like Spellbomb.
i almost want to splash red for this but it would seem to unstable. i do like the elk... maybe like 2 elk 2 mulch instead of 4 mulch. i have to take some more time and look at the cards today... will update later with a list.
im kind of thinking undying evil will replace PMLunge...
I REALLY Like fling in this deck now that I think about it... fling splinterfright/ghoultree, response drop undying evil... faithless looting is like an almost better alchemy...
land i would have to figure out later... this is just a concept right now
if i keep the blue in and not red then I do like screeching skaab and thought scour...
opinions?
Where to begin?
Since the spoiler was a bit less than stellar for self-mill, it's no big surprise that I'm not confident for the direction of this archetype. It's got some issues, and I didn't see a lot of those being overcome with the small help DKA provided. Still, there is a big decision to be made in the coming month for me:
Which version of self-mill do I want to play?
Considerations also should be made on a few card debates. Is the new Torch Fiend better than Ancient Grudge? It helps that it's a creature, but it loses the flashback that makes the Grudge so crazy. Also, Viridian Emissary or the new Dawntreader Elk? In these decks I substituted in the DKA card just to test. Lastly, I replaced Shriekhorn with Tracker's Instincts, because even at the higher cost, I like being able to control what I sift.
That said, I'm just not sure what to think of Tracker's Instincts in general. Is it better than Forbidden Alchemy? The fact that it costs 1 less and flashes back for MUCH less is nice... but the limitation of having to keep a creature can sometimes be a downer. I'm just not sure what to think about it.
Well in my build all of my spells have flashback except for mulch. I'd post it, but I'm currently on my phone. You shouldn't really HAVE to filter for spells or lands in this deck. All we really need is that Splinterfright, KCB, or Ghoultree. The rest is just utility to get us there faster and fuel our engine. Like I said earlier do a 3/2 or 4/2 split with whatever you feel better with. Redundancy is the key to a consistent deck even if it costs 1 more and is really only good for one use (welcome to normal magic kids... Instants and sorcery only get to be used once...)
Honestly, I'm having trouble figuring out the best combination to run so I'm going to break them all down in this post:
Mulch: Before DKA I thought this was the best self-mill card in the entire format. It's hard to put this over Tracker's Instincts because TI flashes back, BUT being able to draw into mana is quite useful Tracker's Instincts: Possibly the best card for self-mill decks. Unlike Mulch, this lets you draw into Splinterfright. I think this card might make Forbidden Alchemy less vital to the success of this deck which means we can fully get rid of black Forbidden Alchemy: Before DKA, I thought this card was completely necessary for self-mill/SF decks to be viable. I think Tracker's Instincts makes it so we can just run a splash of blue instead of going full-out UG Faithless Looting: An amazing card in general, but I'm not sure it's really the best option. TI is only 1 more as a whole, goes twice as deep, and has the potential to net you card advantage. The only other upside to this card is that it lets you dump unnecessary cards from your hand Shattered Perception: A one-sided Windfall with a reasonable cc and flashback is incredible, but I'm not sure it's enough to entice me into staying in red.
I still refuse to run Shriekhorn. It seems completely unnecessary in a format full of awesome self-mill spells
I'll post a deck list in the next couple of days
Any thoughts about Geralf's Mindcrusher? He's a 6CMC, which automatically makes him a head-scratcher, but he mills five, and he's undying, so he might mill five again. That he comes on a body that can single-handed destroy Mirran Crusaders makes him really tempting to me.
But will the deck survive long enough to get him out? Does he fit better into the Ghoultree slot for the UG/ deck?
I'm pretty sure after testing extensively today that trackers instinct is a trap. This deck really wants creatures in it's graveyard and trackers does the opposite of that, on top of that with lands and spells you usually only get 1 creature so you end up dumping mana and other mill spells into the GY. Mulch is actually way better because it dumps the creatures away and gives you mana so you can cast more mill spells or flashback spider spawning or find those splash colors.
I'm not sure why some of you are deriding shriekhorn either, turn 1 mill is vital to set up a turn 3 splinterfrieght or a decent boneyard wurm. It being colorless is even better with this deck (or at least my version) having splash colors.
Aside from that, I've been testing this deck with mirror-mad phantasm as a 1 of, the typical plan is mill him, unburial rites him, and then set off his ability. Usually he ends up milling 75% or more of the deck and sets up a spiderspawning for 15+ plus gnaw to the bone and huge wurms and freights. it seems pretty good so far, but I'm doing a lot more testing tonight.
Any thoughts about Geralf's Mindcrusher? He's a 6CMC, which automatically makes him a head-scratcher, but he mills five, and he's undying, so he might mill five again. That he comes on a body that can single-handed destroy Mirran Crusaders makes him really tempting to me.
But will the deck survive long enough to get him out? Does he fit better into the Ghoultree slot for the UG/ deck?
I think for my money I'd rather run Ghoultree. Mindcrusher still doesn't have evasion and it costs double blue. I think you're also going to be able to consistently get the tree in play quicker than the crusher. I agree that if I'm going to run a double U creature it's going to be Ruinator or Drake.
I really find myself wanting to run Shattered Perception, but I'm not sure it's worth it in this deck. I think Mulch, TI, and FA are all better
I'm pretty sure after testing extensively today that trackers instinct is a trap. This deck really wants creatures in it's graveyard and trackers does the opposite of that, on top of that with lands and spells you usually only get 1 creature so you end up dumping mana and other mill spells into the GY. Mulch is actually way better because it dumps the creatures away and gives you mana so you can cast more mill spells or flashback spider spawning or find those splash colors.
I'm not sure why some of you are deriding shriekhorn either, turn 1 mill is vital to set up a turn 3 splinterfrieght or a decent boneyard wurm. It being colorless is even better with this deck (or at least my version) having splash colors.
Aside from that, I've been testing this deck with mirror-mad phantasm as a 1 of, the typical plan is mill him, unburial rites him, and then set off his ability. Usually he ends up milling 75% or more of the deck and sets up a spiderspawning for 15+ plus gnaw to the bone and huge wurms and freights. it seems pretty good so far, but I'm doing a lot more testing tonight.
I still don't think Shriekhorn is worth it. I don't like any mill effects that don't provide at least an even exchange of cards. Thought Scour is borderline playable, but I don't think I'd run it over either Mulch or Instincts. I might run it as my third option
As for Instincts vs Mulch, I agree that Mulch is still probably the superior card, but I think TI is much better than Forbidden Alchemy in this deck because it has a reasonable flashback cost (that isn't a color we'd rather not run). The only thing this doesn't do that Alchemy does is find other mill effects, but Instincts basically finds you another mill card anyway because you can flash it back as soon as the next turn. It also provides more value when it gets milled.
Is red still worth considering here? I don't know if blue got enough to help it overcome the current troubles it's facing (my best shot at the deck styles are above).
With regard to the heavier-green versions, I'm starting to think Postmortem Lunge needs to go back in, since KCBs are it's best, most reliable win condition. Any way to get that to occur more frequently is good, even if it means hard ramping.
I think something like this could be tenable. My main goal is to make Ruinator work. Everything else is gravy. 3 Ruinators might be correct (I can always just use an extra as creature fodder), but I suspect I have enough mill to ensure that they are constantly hitting the bin.
Only 23 lands because I have nothing higher than a 3 drop. Could probably even be 22 given the Deranged Assistants.
While the shell of this deck might have been possible before Dark Ascension, I think that Thought Scour and Faithless Looting are what really make it hum. Screeching Skaab might be a nice bonus too, though I'm not sure it's better than Deranged Assistant. Both Screeching Skaab and Deranged Assistant might also be straight up worse than Merfolk Looter.
While Lavamancer might cause some synergy issues with Skaab Ruinator and Snapcaster Mage, I think there are enough mill sources to make it work. I also figure that otherwise unused lands will be hitting the bin, especially with Evolving Wilds.
Thoughts? I haven't had a chance to run anything like this, but I have some Ruinator's sitting in my binder that I'd really like to try. The deck could be more metagamed (especially with gut shots, whipflares, geistflames, mental missteps, etc.), but I'm not really sure what would stay or go. I guess there's always sideboards for that.
This is what I've been toying around with since the DKA spoilers. It's been doing pretty well! I know Dungeon Geists seems like an odd card choice, but it lets us have some form of interaction to the board. I also know I have A LOT of two drops, but I don't know what to get rid of at that CMC.
I'm going to keep messing around with this deck until I figure out the number of everything needed, but all-in-all it's a blast to play and I have been since INN came out.
Has anyone thought about making more of a splash into black for creatures like Gravecrawler?
Quick thought. Some of the decklists I've been looking at were using Postmortem Lunge (myself included) to get extra, hastened KCB attacks. But it gets expensive, and it requires us to lose a creature from our yard.
DKA offers, I think, an alternative at a MUCH lighter cost in Undying Evil. Clearly it's not the same effect, but at B, instant speed, and granting Undying, it pretty much guarantees an extra swing for the same creature. It also makes it harder to kill the next time...
What do you guys think of making the switch?
Also, and I know this is hard for me to even say, but... ugh, the intro pack gave me an idea: Chasm Drake. It gives our big bodies the much-needed evasion they crave (*cough* Ghoultree), and it's an easily-splashable non-green body itself, which can prove extremely useful.
Hey, I've had some time to look over the spoiler a little bit more so I have some new ideas. As I was discussing in the Standard deck discussion thread, red was one of the best utility colors for this deck. However, since a lot of the best cards for the deck are blue and green, we might be stuck using those two and trying to work in red as a support.
The two cards that I think we gain in blue from DKA are Screeching Skaab and Tracker's Instinct. I know that Screeching Skaab might not look like much, but it is a creature that enables Splinterfright. Typically, when using Shriekhorn, I expected to hit a creature on each tap. This mills for the same amount as a tap so it should net a creature, but also gives us a blocker/attacker. That is big, when one of our problems was not being able to put a clock on control or blockers against aggro until we had creatures too big for them to handle. It's better than Armored Skaab, because it comes down at a more relevant time and it has 2 power, which allows it to not just sit around and block. Here's my most recent deck:
This deck looks like a ton of fun and I'm thinking of building it. I had a question and don't really have the time to scan 34 pages for the answer, but I was wondering....what is the minimum number of creatures this deck needs to reliably get a comfortable amount of critters in the GY to enable the beaters like Boneyard Wurm and Splinterfright? I see some lists running like 27 creatures and 19 lands...it's an unfamiliar ratio for me as far as building decks goes.
I also wanted to know what people thought about Noxious Revival since the possibility of milling your beaters into the GY is very real.
EDIT: did a search of the thread for Noxious Revival. Seems like a solid idea, although some people can't choose this over Postmortem Lunge when I'd run both.
Screeching Skaab looks like a definite 2 of if not a 4 of. Goes in over Armored Skaab for sure. Also Tracker's Instinct looks like it goes in before Forbidden Alchemy but I agree with the previous comment that we want most of our creatures to go to the GY most of the time. It looks like GU is still our best bet though RUG or RG would work pretty well.
I think we should play Phyrexian Metamorph. There's not a lot of answers to Geist of Saint Traft in our deck an we really need the Metamorph to stop that from wrecking us. It can also copy Splinterfright which is good.
I said this in the old thread,but it got closed so I'll just repeat it here.
Just had a good idea. Our deck doesn't want lands entering the battlefield tapped early in the game. It's ok late, but without a UG fastland there's no reliable way to go three color that way if you catch my drift. As I've said before our deck has very low color requirements. I think we could run some number of Shimmering Grotto and splash for the new mulch without too much trouble as we also run Birds of Paradise. We could also run some Islands, but we need to guarantee that we have turn 1 green mana in this deck. Thoughts?
On to some of the observations.
1. I think we should run 2-4 Llanowar Elves. Is 2 too little? Is 3 or 4 too many? We need to find which number is the best IMO.
2. I really like Shimmering Grotto for a blue splash. I think RG is the best combination because Faithless Looting is just so strong. I think we really need that card.
3. With a blue Splash we want to run 20-22 lands IMO. We might need 22 to successfully do the splash, but we should run the lowest number we can that keeps the deck consistent.
4. Although I just advocated for keeping the Metamorph it is not necessary to the deck if there is a better creature we should cut it IMO. I just don't think there is right now.
5. 3-4 Tracker's Instincts. Again not sure of the number. As we're just splashing blue maybe 3 is better.
Anyways those are just some thoughts. Sorry for the wall of text.
This deck looks like a ton of fun and I'm thinking of building it. I had a question and don't really have the time to scan 34 pages for the answer, but I was wondering....what is the minimum number of creatures this deck needs to reliably get a comfortable amount of critters in the GY to enable the beaters like Boneyard Wurm and Splinterfright? I see some lists running like 27 creatures and 19 lands...it's an unfamiliar ratio for me as far as building decks goes.
I also wanted to know what people thought about Noxious Revival since the possibility of milling your beaters into the GY is very real.
27 creatures is actually on the high side, but in this deck it's ideal to push the count upward. 20 lands, though, that's about as low as I've dared to go, and that was with MANY mana dorks that take the place of those lands (and, again, count as creatures in the yard). I'd say 20-24 is fine, but again if you can trim it down that's better; more creatures are better.
As someone who's played Magic a long time, I still have to say that this style of self-mill midrange is the most fun I've ever had.
As for Noxious Revival, it's just not that great most of the time. While, yes, you get a beater back... you're weakening your own strategy by taking it out of the yard. What's more, it doesn't work as well with Splinterfright, and the goal is that you've got more in your deck anyway.
Now I took out the black splash and the 3x Spider Spawning here, and I'm not sure if that was a good idea or not. But this is testing. It allowed me to put in even more creatures while also simplifying the mana base. I kind of feel like 29 creatures is a lot... not gonna lie.
It also means that those Postmortem Lunges in the sb are going to be replacing creatures, but again I think that's fine. Do they deserve mb spots? Should I put in the Undying Evils instead? I love deck-building.
Turn one: Play a swamp, reveal Chancellor of the Tangle, play Zombie Infestation, discard four cards (Chancellor of the Forge, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Chancellor of the Tangle, and Unburial Rites) to make two 2/2 Zombies.
Turn two: Play a Forest and a bonyard worm. Swing 4 with Zombies
Turn three: Play an Isolated Chapel. Swing 8 with Zombies and Worm
Turn four: Play a Plains, Use flashback on Unburial Rites to recur Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and swing for 15...good game?
It's pretty solid...without Zombie Infestation, I use cards such as Mulch to start the fun, as well as keep it going. Working on putting in more token generators as it's just plain fun.
Legacy
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:symg::symg:Elves:symg::symg:
Extended
:symr::symu:Ascension:symu::symr:
Standard
:symb::symg:B/G Land Destruction:symg::symb:
EDH
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: The Sliver Legionaires:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symw::symb:Infinite Life Clerics:symb::symw:
-If I was that Mike Long, my DCI rating would be higher.-
-I'd spend more money on cards if I didn't have a beautiful woman to spend it for me.-
One simple question, going by this, you're taking into consideration that your opponent doesn't throw anything out nor disrupt you in anyway whatsoever right...?
Warning for poor language and condescending content.
-Sene
Legacy
:symb::symg:Eva Cheap:symg::symb:
:symg::symg:Elves:symg::symg:
Extended
:symr::symu:Ascension:symu::symr:
Standard
:symb::symg:B/G Land Destruction:symg::symb:
EDH
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: The Sliver Legionaires:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symw::symb:Infinite Life Clerics:symb::symw:
-If I was that Mike Long, my DCI rating would be higher.-
-I'd spend more money on cards if I didn't have a beautiful woman to spend it for me.-
So far, Ive just been trying to live as long as I can and then trying to win later on with Postmortem Lunge.
Any opinions on the lack of interaction?
Screeching Skaab is an aggressive Armored Skaab at turn 2, conveniently dropping BEFORE Splinterfright instead of butting heads for turn 3's attention. Mills fewer but I would say is more valuable on the field. Geralf's Mindcrusher I guess is the rare 'bomby' version but I'm not sure it's the turn 6 heavy in blue play we're looking for. Undying could end up mattering, but for that mana you could likely drop 2 10/10s at this point in the game.
And speaking of Ghoultree, Artful Dodge is just the evasion we wished he had for super-cheap, from the graveyard. Draw it, mill it, whatever, still scary.
Mulch now has a new 2-drop friend in the form of Tracker's Instincts? A much friendlier looking version of Forbidden Alchemy, though it doesn't remove the black splash needed for spider spawning.
Grim Flowering seems like it's in a bad spot. At turn 6 it could draw a new hand quite easily, but our card advantage is already in the form of flashback and this could be too late for our average match-ups. Also not thrilled to be trying to find more room for non-creatures.
Dawntreader Elk is an on-demand land haste and fixer with a tougher body than Viridian Emissary. The cost to sacrifice makes it prohibitive but our opponents can't easily bounce or exile it to deny the land like the elf.
this is more of an attempt at a 4 color solarflare....
i know it seems the same but the concepts are different
Currently Playing
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Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
I'm thinking some sort of 4/2 or maybe 3/2 split between Forbidden Alchemy and Trackers Instincts. I also think the zombie tree will be a nice 2-of in our deck too! After actually looking at the cards it actually seems like this deck got A LOT more consistent.
I'm very excited to pick some of these cards up and play this at the first DKA legal FNM. This is just such a fun archetype to play. All we need now is a utility creature to deal with GY hate like Spellbomb.
edit: new cards that strike my fancy...
all strike my fancy
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
I REALLY Like fling in this deck now that I think about it... fling splinterfright/ghoultree, response drop undying evil... faithless looting is like an almost better alchemy...
im thinking
3 Dawntreader Elk
4 Splinterfright
1 Kessig Cagebreaker
1 Ghoultree
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ezuri Archers
2 Torch Fiend
1 Briarpack Alpha
2 Black Cat
2 Tracker's Instincts
2 Fling
3 Faithless Looting
1 Desperate Ravings
1 Shattered Perception
2 Postmortum Lunge
2 Undying Evil
1 Spider Spawning
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Gravepurge
land i would have to figure out later... this is just a concept right now
if i keep the blue in and not red then I do like screeching skaab and thought scour...
opinions?
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
Since the spoiler was a bit less than stellar for self-mill, it's no big surprise that I'm not confident for the direction of this archetype. It's got some issues, and I didn't see a lot of those being overcome with the small help DKA provided. Still, there is a big decision to be made in the coming month for me:
Which version of self-mill do I want to play?
Version 1, UGB, the Original:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Merfolk Looter
3x Screeching Skaab
2x Dawntreader Elk
4x Splinterfright
3x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Kessig Cagebreakers
3x Ghoultree
Spells: (13)
4x Mulch
4x Tracker's Instincts
2x Gnaw to the Bone
3x Spider Spawning
8x Forest
3x Island
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Evolving Wilds
1x Swamp
1x Woodland Cemetery
4x Vapor Snag
2x Naturalize
3x Beast Within
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Daybreak Ranger
2x Ratchet Bomb
Version 2, RG, heavy-green:
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Llanowar Elves
3x Dawtreader Elk
4x Splinterfright
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Kessig Cagebreakers
3x Ghoultree
4x Faithless Looting
3x Tracker's Instincts
4x Mulch
1x Gnaw to the Bone
1x Blasphemous Act
Lands: (21)
7x Forest
4x Mountain
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Torch Fiend
3x Gnaw to the Bone
3x Daybreak Ranger
4x Beast Within
2x Blasphemous Act
Version 3, RG, the aggro:
4x Goblin Arsonist
2x Stromkirk Noble
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Stormblood Berserker
2x Boneyard Wurm
4x Splinterfright
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Kessig Cagebreakers
2x Ghoultree
3x Mulch
4x Faithless Looting
2x Gut Shot
2x Gnaw to the Bone
Lands (22)
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
3x Kessig Wolf Run
8x Mountain
3x Forest
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Torch Fiend
3x Blasphemous Act
2x Gnaw to the Bone
3x Beast Within
2x Daybreak Ranger
That said, I'm just not sure what to think of Tracker's Instincts in general. Is it better than Forbidden Alchemy? The fact that it costs 1 less and flashes back for MUCH less is nice... but the limitation of having to keep a creature can sometimes be a downer. I'm just not sure what to think about it.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
Right now, as I see it, there are currently 5 self-mill spells that cut the mustard:
Honestly, I'm having trouble figuring out the best combination to run so I'm going to break them all down in this post:
Mulch: Before DKA I thought this was the best self-mill card in the entire format. It's hard to put this over Tracker's Instincts because TI flashes back, BUT being able to draw into mana is quite useful
Tracker's Instincts: Possibly the best card for self-mill decks. Unlike Mulch, this lets you draw into Splinterfright. I think this card might make Forbidden Alchemy less vital to the success of this deck which means we can fully get rid of black
Forbidden Alchemy: Before DKA, I thought this card was completely necessary for self-mill/SF decks to be viable. I think Tracker's Instincts makes it so we can just run a splash of blue instead of going full-out UG
Faithless Looting: An amazing card in general, but I'm not sure it's really the best option. TI is only 1 more as a whole, goes twice as deep, and has the potential to net you card advantage. The only other upside to this card is that it lets you dump unnecessary cards from your hand
Shattered Perception: A one-sided Windfall with a reasonable cc and flashback is incredible, but I'm not sure it's enough to entice me into staying in red.
I still refuse to run Shriekhorn. It seems completely unnecessary in a format full of awesome self-mill spells
I'll post a deck list in the next couple of days
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
But will the deck survive long enough to get him out? Does he fit better into the Ghoultree slot for the UG/ deck?
And now that we have Tracker's Instincts, I don't think we need Shriekhorn any more.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
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Personally right now I'm running Mulch thought scour and shriekhorn for my non creature mill.
I'm not sure why some of you are deriding shriekhorn either, turn 1 mill is vital to set up a turn 3 splinterfrieght or a decent boneyard wurm. It being colorless is even better with this deck (or at least my version) having splash colors.
Aside from that, I've been testing this deck with mirror-mad phantasm as a 1 of, the typical plan is mill him, unburial rites him, and then set off his ability. Usually he ends up milling 75% or more of the deck and sets up a spiderspawning for 15+ plus gnaw to the bone and huge wurms and freights. it seems pretty good so far, but I'm doing a lot more testing tonight.
I think for my money I'd rather run Ghoultree. Mindcrusher still doesn't have evasion and it costs double blue. I think you're also going to be able to consistently get the tree in play quicker than the crusher. I agree that if I'm going to run a double U creature it's going to be Ruinator or Drake.
I really find myself wanting to run Shattered Perception, but I'm not sure it's worth it in this deck. I think Mulch, TI, and FA are all better
I still don't think Shriekhorn is worth it. I don't like any mill effects that don't provide at least an even exchange of cards. Thought Scour is borderline playable, but I don't think I'd run it over either Mulch or Instincts. I might run it as my third option
As for Instincts vs Mulch, I agree that Mulch is still probably the superior card, but I think TI is much better than Forbidden Alchemy in this deck because it has a reasonable flashback cost (that isn't a color we'd rather not run). The only thing this doesn't do that Alchemy does is find other mill effects, but Instincts basically finds you another mill card anyway because you can flash it back as soon as the next turn. It also provides more value when it gets milled.
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
With regard to the heavier-green versions, I'm starting to think Postmortem Lunge needs to go back in, since KCBs are it's best, most reliable win condition. Any way to get that to occur more frequently is good, even if it means hard ramping.
For the red decks, I'm debating removing the Ghoultrees and toying with either Hero of Oxid Ridge, the new Hellrider, or even Falkenrath Marauders. Odd choices, but they both play into the strong-suit, which is aggro rush.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
2 Skaab Ruinator
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deranged Assistant
2 Screeching Skaab
2 Mindshrieker/Merfolk Looter
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
2 Thought Scour
4 Faithless Looting
Land (23)
4 Sulphur Falls
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Evolving Wilds
6 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
I think something like this could be tenable. My main goal is to make Ruinator work. Everything else is gravy. 3 Ruinators might be correct (I can always just use an extra as creature fodder), but I suspect I have enough mill to ensure that they are constantly hitting the bin.
Only 23 lands because I have nothing higher than a 3 drop. Could probably even be 22 given the Deranged Assistants.
While the shell of this deck might have been possible before Dark Ascension, I think that Thought Scour and Faithless Looting are what really make it hum. Screeching Skaab might be a nice bonus too, though I'm not sure it's better than Deranged Assistant. Both Screeching Skaab and Deranged Assistant might also be straight up worse than Merfolk Looter.
While Lavamancer might cause some synergy issues with Skaab Ruinator and Snapcaster Mage, I think there are enough mill sources to make it work. I also figure that otherwise unused lands will be hitting the bin, especially with Evolving Wilds.
Thoughts? I haven't had a chance to run anything like this, but I have some Ruinator's sitting in my binder that I'd really like to try. The deck could be more metagamed (especially with gut shots, whipflares, geistflames, mental missteps, etc.), but I'm not really sure what would stay or go. I guess there's always sideboards for that.
3 Kessig Cagebreakers
4 Dawntreader Elk
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Llanowar Elf
2 Ghoultree
4 Merfolk Looter
3 Dungeon Geists
3 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Spider Spawning
2 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mulch
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Woodland Cemetary
8 Forest
4 Island
1 Swamp
This is what I've been toying around with since the DKA spoilers. It's been doing pretty well! I know Dungeon Geists seems like an odd card choice, but it lets us have some form of interaction to the board. I also know I have A LOT of two drops, but I don't know what to get rid of at that CMC.
I'm going to keep messing around with this deck until I figure out the number of everything needed, but all-in-all it's a blast to play and I have been since INN came out.
Has anyone thought about making more of a splash into black for creatures like Gravecrawler?
DKA offers, I think, an alternative at a MUCH lighter cost in Undying Evil. Clearly it's not the same effect, but at B, instant speed, and granting Undying, it pretty much guarantees an extra swing for the same creature. It also makes it harder to kill the next time...
What do you guys think of making the switch?
Also, and I know this is hard for me to even say, but... ugh, the intro pack gave me an idea: Chasm Drake. It gives our big bodies the much-needed evasion they crave (*cough* Ghoultree), and it's an easily-splashable non-green body itself, which can prove extremely useful.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
The two cards that I think we gain in blue from DKA are Screeching Skaab and Tracker's Instinct. I know that Screeching Skaab might not look like much, but it is a creature that enables Splinterfright. Typically, when using Shriekhorn, I expected to hit a creature on each tap. This mills for the same amount as a tap so it should net a creature, but also gives us a blocker/attacker. That is big, when one of our problems was not being able to put a clock on control or blockers against aggro until we had creatures too big for them to handle. It's better than Armored Skaab, because it comes down at a more relevant time and it has 2 power, which allows it to not just sit around and block. Here's my most recent deck:
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Screeching Skaab
4x Boneyard Wurm
4x Splinterfright
3x Kessig Cagebreakers
3x Ghoultree
Other (13)
4x Faithless Looting
4x Tracker's Instinct
4x Mulch
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Rootbound Crag
2x Hinterland Harbor
2x Copperline Gorge
3x Evolving Wild
2x Kessig Wolf Run
6x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Island
2x Daybreak Ranger
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Postmortem Lunge
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Blasphemous Act
2x Bonehoard
I also wanted to know what people thought about Noxious Revival since the possibility of milling your beaters into the GY is very real.
EDIT: did a search of the thread for Noxious Revival. Seems like a solid idea, although some people can't choose this over Postmortem Lunge when I'd run both.
This is what I'd probably run:
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Llannowar Elves
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Boneyard Wurm
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Splinterfright
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Kessig Cagebreakers
3x Ghoultree
4x Faithless Looting
4x Tracker's Instincts
4x Mulch
1x Gnaw to the Bone
Lands-21
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Kessig Wolf Run
5x Forest
3x Mountain
3x Shimmering Grotto
This is incredibly similar to RealOG's old deck.
I think we should play Phyrexian Metamorph. There's not a lot of answers to Geist of Saint Traft in our deck an we really need the Metamorph to stop that from wrecking us. It can also copy Splinterfright which is good.
I said this in the old thread,but it got closed so I'll just repeat it here.
On to some of the observations.
1. I think we should run 2-4 Llanowar Elves. Is 2 too little? Is 3 or 4 too many? We need to find which number is the best IMO.
2. I really like Shimmering Grotto for a blue splash. I think RG is the best combination because Faithless Looting is just so strong. I think we really need that card.
3. With a blue Splash we want to run 20-22 lands IMO. We might need 22 to successfully do the splash, but we should run the lowest number we can that keeps the deck consistent.
4. Although I just advocated for keeping the Metamorph it is not necessary to the deck if there is a better creature we should cut it IMO. I just don't think there is right now.
5. 3-4 Tracker's Instincts. Again not sure of the number. As we're just splashing blue maybe 3 is better.
Anyways those are just some thoughts. Sorry for the wall of text.
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27 creatures is actually on the high side, but in this deck it's ideal to push the count upward. 20 lands, though, that's about as low as I've dared to go, and that was with MANY mana dorks that take the place of those lands (and, again, count as creatures in the yard). I'd say 20-24 is fine, but again if you can trim it down that's better; more creatures are better.
As someone who's played Magic a long time, I still have to say that this style of self-mill midrange is the most fun I've ever had.
As for Noxious Revival, it's just not that great most of the time. While, yes, you get a beater back... you're weakening your own strategy by taking it out of the yard. What's more, it doesn't work as well with Splinterfright, and the goal is that you've got more in your deck anyway.
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Llanowar Elves
3x Merfolk Looter
3x Screeching Skaab
2x Dawntreader Elk
4x Splinterfright
3x Chasm Drake
4x Kessig Cagebreakers
3x Ghoultree
4x Mulch
3x Tracker's Instincts
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Naturalize
3x Beast Within
2x Daybreak Ranger
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Undying Evil
2x Postmortem Lunge
10x Forest
4x Island
1x Swamp
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Evolving Wilds
Now I took out the black splash and the 3x Spider Spawning here, and I'm not sure if that was a good idea or not. But this is testing. It allowed me to put in even more creatures while also simplifying the mana base. I kind of feel like 29 creatures is a lot... not gonna lie.
It also means that those Postmortem Lunges in the sb are going to be replacing creatures, but again I think that's fine. Do they deserve mb spots? Should I put in the Undying Evils instead? I love deck-building.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)