Well, I think we're both coming from two different positions when looking at how to build this deck. My hypothesis on how to play this deck well even without a Heartless Summoning on the field is by controlling the field. It should be quite obvious by most of the mana curves of this deck archetype that this deck runs slow. So, in order to compensate for this fault I feel that it's correct to put in the deck a lot of ways to control the opponent's field to keep both players on a equal playing field more or less. This deck could probably run perfectly fine on its own without Heartless Summoning as a sort of control deck. However, with Heartless Summoning out one is able to threaten the opponent much faster. Really, I feel that Heartless Summoning is merely an augment to the control aspect of the deck.
And, because of this, I don't feel that it's in my best interest to scale back the control aspects of this deck. I also feel that Inferno Titan being a four-of is perfectly fine because I personally feel that Inferno is a better card than Wurmcoil in this archetype. I do, however, like the suggestion of adding some discard in the deck. I have added in three Despise to my deck. Here's how my deck is looking now:
I actually think that we're very much on the same page about what this deck should be doing, except you're trying to control the game in a very round-about way that isn't going to get you very far. 9 targeted removal spells doesn't do jack for you when Geist comes down, or when your opponent is doubling tokens on you and doesn't care if you blow their creatures up because they will only get more. In the history of magic history, I've never seen someone toss a ton of removal into a deck and call it control. What do you do when you play Solar Flare, and they counter/remove all of your creatures, and then by the time they play their threat, they've left mana open to simply counter your removal? There's no graveyard recursion or anything that can take care of a planeswalker for you (outside of despise, which I'm not sure why you'd throw in when you already have more than enough removal for creatures).
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
This is the list I'll be testing over the next few days. The mana base is something I literally just threw together, so we'll see how that works out. I really miss Buried Ruin, but there's no way to run it with a 3 color mana base. We'll see how it works out.
Counter spells stop everything. It's the condom Trojan dreams of making. But like condoms, if you don't have one, you still keep on playing and take the risk. Most of us wouldn't be here if this wasn't a fact.
Okay, so I've been following this thread for a little while, but I haven't been posting. I tested the "aggro" type lists quite a bit, where you drop your Heartless on turn 2 and then try to build the board up as fast as possible. I didn't really like this way of playing the card, it felt too easy to get rolled over. I'd consistently get hit with a DoJ and then be out of steam completely. I decided to go more Mid-Range Control and so far I like it, it just needs some tweaking!
Grand Architect is in for two reasons. One if you draw it and haven't played a Heartless Summoning, it can cast Myr Superion for you. Second it lets Frost Titan come into play as a 6/6 so that it dodges Dismember. Myr Superion is in, because essentially we're looking at a deck that has the ability to play a free Tarmogoyf in standard. I'm playing Titan over Wurmcoil because it immediately effects the board, goes along with the control body of the deck, and is resilient to removal. My main concern with other builds of this deck is that you power out creatures and they roll over to spot removal, and then you can't bounce back. This deck can win when you drop a Frost Titan on turn 4, and then drop a Gideon Jura on turn 5. Usually equals game over, especially when you're also playing free Myr Superions.
The sideboard is a work in progress, and is a little bit goofy right now. But the main point of it is to switch up the gameplan VS aggro. Instead of trying to power out a Frost Titan, I put in Wurmcoil Engines, take out Heartless Summoning all together and replace it with Timely Reinforcements. Without Heartless Summoning, Myr Superion can go in favor of DoJ. It basically changes itself to a UWb control deck VS aggro. Grand Architect stays in, and maybe I'll put a third one in the sideboard, so that we can still cast a Wurmcoil on turn 4.
This list looks SICK. I'm definitely gonna try this out. ;D
I am experimenting with heartless summoning in a slightly different direction then most of you. I use big creatures, draw-discard, heartless summoning, and CARD]Unburial Rites[/CARD].
I discovered a neat combo That I think you all may like. I think taht this makes Rune-Scarred Demon a near auto include...
heartless summoning out and play Rune-Scarred Demon for 5 fetching Phyrexian Metamorph copying the demon for 1 mana and 2 life! So for 6 mana and 2 life I get 2 5/5 flyers and another card fatched from my library. For 7 mana and 4 life I get 3 2 5/5 flyers and another card. WIth 2 heartless summoning (do not say that is impossible because with all of the draw my deck has it definately is) 3 mana for Rune-Scarred Demon U or 2 life for each copy of the now 4/4 flyer.
I am experimenting with heartless summoning in a slightly different direction then most of you. I use big creatures, draw-discard, heartless summoning, and CARD]Unburial Rites[/CARD].
I discovered a neat combo That I think you all may like. I think taht this makes Rune-Scarred Demon a near auto include...
heartless summoning out and play Rune-Scarred Demon for 5 fetching Phyrexian Metamorph copying the demon for 1 mana and 2 life! So for 6 mana and 2 life I get 2 5/5 flyers and another card fatched from my library. For 7 mana and 4 life I get 3 2 5/5 flyers and another card. WIth 2 heartless summoning (do not say that is impossible because with all of the draw my deck has it definately is) 3 mana for Rune-Scarred Demon U or 2 life for each copy of the now 4/4 flyer.
If you don't want the draw in your deck discounted why don't you post the list so we can see? I do like the rune scarred/metamorph combo though. Being able to cast Metamorph for 1cc/2life with HS out is pretty hard not to include no matter what though.
The Sun Titans feel a little out of place, as they only really bring back broken o-rings, mana dorks, and ragers.
There is just so much card advantage in this deck.
As for the glissa/p myr combo, It seems a little too inconsistant to get, so i pitched it alltogether. I may be a bit wrong about the the p myrs(a free shock doesnt sound too bad).
I avoided Myr Superion because I rather not have dead cards early game where you dont get a heartless out or it is countered. Although now I am thinking about it LOTV + Superion = Sun Titan Recursion.. hmmm.
Altar's reap is great as it serves as so many purposes.
What do you guys think? Anyone else trying a GBW build?
Has anyone here been working on grixis for this deck?
I was thinking something like this to maximize the value of heartless and still have an amazing amount of solid plays without it. This is just kind of a rough draft.
Again, the premise here is Heartless Summoning as acceleration aid, not the focus of the deck. No Superions here either as I've been finding them inconsistent in playtesting. I'm not going to overly tout the Prey Upon/Obliterator combo but my idea here is not only fill the deck with creatures that have good synergy with Prey Upon but also still retain explosiveness with Heartless Summoning in play. Mutagenic Growth is screaming to go to a 3 or 4 of as it seems to serve many different uses and can still save Obliterator from Dismember even if you have Heartless in play but I can't seem to find any more room.
So far the deck plays similar to the Mono Black Midrange from pre-Innistrad Standard, only without the power of Lashwrithe which may also find it's way back into the deck if Prey Upon doesn't work out but I've seen it do some amazing things so far.
Yeah, I wouldn't run superion without an alternative method of playing him. Priest of Urabrask or Palladium Myr would be the recommended methods for a summoning list. Architect is also feasable, but I think less practical overall. Doing some ramp with SoTS, Heartless and Solemn into consistant T4 Titans and Sphinxes seems like the best use. The occasional T3 Bloodgift is never bad either.
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This list has been testing well for me. I started with Chapin's heartless architect build from last week and tuned from there. Ponder is way better than sphere of suns in this deck for its ability to set up broken turn 2's by grabbing heartless summoning or superion/skite for turn 2. I removed the forgemaster combo and blightsteel and maxed out on wurmcoils and metamorphs. I have not regretted that either.
The sideboard is a bit of a mess. I like surgical extraction for solar flare to hit sun titan when they try to reanimate. Zenith and doom blade are for fast aggro, although this deck is pretty fast itself. The draw creatures are to help in control matches.
Despise is not tempo. It's actually a tempo loss for you, since you spend a card and a mana and a turn to get their card.
It can be a tempo play if they're sitting on a shaky hand and were relying on hitting some t2/t3 threat, or a mana dork, in order to make the hand playable.
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Quote from Philonus »
Counter spells stop everything. It's the condom Trojan dreams of making. But like condoms, if you don't have one, you still keep on playing and take the risk. Most of us wouldn't be here if this wasn't a fact.
Of course its not like U/B control decks ran 4-6 hand disruption spells last season is it, coz I mean, that's just card disadvantage right...O_o
U/B control was a very different deck that had very different discard spells. The power of Inquisition of Kozilek taking equally powerful 1-drops (such as Goblin Guide, Steppe Lynx, etc) could not be understated. We don't have any truly powerful 1-drops in this format besides Reckless Waif.
There's just not any turn 1 pressure in this format, and even if there was, the discard spells we have access to are mostly underwhelming at buying us time to get to turn 4. I'd rather just run Doom Blade or Dismember.
(And technically it's not card disadvantage; you're trading 1-for-1. It's tempo disadvantage, because you're spending mana and your main phase to initiate the trade.)
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Quote from Philonus »
Counter spells stop everything. It's the condom Trojan dreams of making. But like condoms, if you don't have one, you still keep on playing and take the risk. Most of us wouldn't be here if this wasn't a fact.
Sure...I understand this..You're aware that Lili exists..We're not stripping guides, but we can strip a format warping 3 mana planeswalker that can wreck any deck left unopposed while fueling format warping strategies.....
This also (for the time being) seems to be a creature based meta, so, stripping creatures = good, usually...
If you're not doing anything on turn 1 anyway, I fail to see how despising a Lili or you opponents best creature is a negative play...
This. Also, stripping a Geist is going to be huge as he is going to be a HUGE pain the in the butt for most decks.
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First tournament top 8 11/4/12 at the SCG IQ in Santa Cruz!
Just like any Birthing Pod deck, it's extremely important that you build your deck around not having the key-card, but when you do get you're just going to blow the game up.
Funeral: While I understand not trying to play too much stuff that requires pod or summoning, doesn't ten creatures seem really light? I mean, you're running 3 heartless summoning just for 10 total critters.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
Funeral: While I understand not trying to play too much stuff that requires pod or summoning, doesn't ten creatures seem really light? I mean, you're running 3 heartless summoning just for 10 total critters.
My deck isn't a Heartless Summoning deck, per say.. It's a U/B control deck that uses Heartless to drop threats for cheaper and still have mana to counter. Although one could argue that I could replace the 3x Heartless with 3x Snapcaster Mage to create an infinitely better deck.. But I like the idea behind Heartless Summoning.
Would you say that 20 creatures with 4 HS is better? To me it seems like having 10 creatures with 3 HS is actually a better ratio.. Ask yourself: Who is going to be stuck casting creatures for full cost more often? My build? Or others? Who is going to be able to protect their (extra fragile) threats better? My build? Or others?
I'm just really curious if there's a good reason that no one is doing this deck in Grixis? I posted the idea a few pages back and I haven't seen anyone looking at it or working at it. Since when were consistant turn 4 Titans bad? Also, it seems like Frost and Inferno Titans are going to be the best for this since they lose the least from their abilities with heartless. (...Just realized how out of it I was last time I put the list together... messed up my card count on that post, the concept was still there though.)
Summary: Play a turn 4 Titan or sphinx every game. Overwhelm with a critical mass of high value creatures.
I'm not overly certain about Priest of Urabrask + Superion. I know I wouldn't run Superion without Priest of Urabrask, but this deck is so top-heavy I wanted at least a little on the low end to smooth things out. I may be pulling them in favor of more Titan-esque plays.
I actually think that we're very much on the same page about what this deck should be doing, except you're trying to control the game in a very round-about way that isn't going to get you very far. 9 targeted removal spells doesn't do jack for you when Geist comes down, or when your opponent is doubling tokens on you and doesn't care if you blow their creatures up because they will only get more. In the history of magic history, I've never seen someone toss a ton of removal into a deck and call it control. What do you do when you play Solar Flare, and they counter/remove all of your creatures, and then by the time they play their threat, they've left mana open to simply counter your removal? There's no graveyard recursion or anything that can take care of a planeswalker for you (outside of despise, which I'm not sure why you'd throw in when you already have more than enough removal for creatures).
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
3x Myr Superion
3x Treasure Mage
4x Grand Architect
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Acidic Slime
2x Bloodgift Demon
2x Viridian Emissary
4x Ponder
4x Mana Leak
3x Heartless Summoning
Land(23)
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Forest
3x Spellskite
3x Dismember
2x Go for the Throat
3x Beast Within
2x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Mindslaver
This is the list I'll be testing over the next few days. The mana base is something I literally just threw together, so we'll see how that works out. I really miss Buried Ruin, but there's no way to run it with a 3 color mana base. We'll see how it works out.
My Trade Thread!
This list looks SICK. I'm definitely gonna try this out. ;D
:symu::symw::symr: UWR Superfriends
I discovered a neat combo That I think you all may like. I think taht this makes Rune-Scarred Demon a near auto include...
heartless summoning out and play Rune-Scarred Demon for 5 fetching Phyrexian Metamorph copying the demon for 1 mana and 2 life! So for 6 mana and 2 life I get 2 5/5 flyers and another card fatched from my library. For 7 mana and 4 life I get 3 2 5/5 flyers and another card. WIth 2 heartless summoning (do not say that is impossible because with all of the draw my deck has it definately is) 3 mana for Rune-Scarred Demon U or 2 life for each copy of the now 4/4 flyer.
If you don't want the draw in your deck discounted why don't you post the list so we can see? I do like the rune scarred/metamorph combo though. Being able to cast Metamorph for 1cc/2life with HS out is pretty hard not to include no matter what though.
It would be dead on arrival I'm pretty sure so I don't think so.
Yeah, it would be in the graveyard before you get priority to do anything.
BTW, I've been trying to set a HS deck with Falkenrath Noble, Necropede and Perilous Myr, any thoughts?
The Sun Titans feel a little out of place, as they only really bring back broken o-rings, mana dorks, and ragers.
There is just so much card advantage in this deck.
As for the glissa/p myr combo, It seems a little too inconsistant to get, so i pitched it alltogether. I may be a bit wrong about the the p myrs(a free shock doesnt sound too bad).
I avoided Myr Superion because I rather not have dead cards early game where you dont get a heartless out or it is countered. Although now I am thinking about it LOTV + Superion = Sun Titan Recursion.. hmmm.
Altar's reap is great as it serves as so many purposes.
What do you guys think? Anyone else trying a GBW build?
Not so sure about the sideboard though yet.
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Woodland Cemetary
5x Swamp
5x Forest
2x Plains
Creature(19)
4x Viridian Emissary
3x Phyrexian Rager
3x Solemn Simulacrum
3x Bloodgift Demon
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Sun Titan
1x Elesh, Norn Grand Cenobite
1x Sheoldred, The Whispering one
4x Heartless Summoning
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Beast Within
4x Altar's Reap
2x Unburial Rights
2x Doom Blade
1x Dismember
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Brindle Boar
2x Day of Judgement
4x Naturalize
I was thinking something like this to maximize the value of heartless and still have an amazing amount of solid plays without it. This is just kind of a rough draft.
25 placeholder
Creatures (19)
3 Priest of Urabrask
2 Myr Superion
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Frost Titan
2 Inferno Titan
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Consecrated Sphinx
4 Heartless Summoning
2 Sphere of the Suns
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
4 Perilous Myr
3 Solemn Similacrum
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Precursor Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Spells:
4 Prey Upon
2 Mutagenic Growth
3 Heartless Summoning
2 Doom Blade
3 Dismember
4 Sphere of the Suns
Lands:
4 Woodland Cemetary
18 Swamp
1 Forest
Again, the premise here is Heartless Summoning as acceleration aid, not the focus of the deck. No Superions here either as I've been finding them inconsistent in playtesting. I'm not going to overly tout the Prey Upon/Obliterator combo but my idea here is not only fill the deck with creatures that have good synergy with Prey Upon but also still retain explosiveness with Heartless Summoning in play. Mutagenic Growth is screaming to go to a 3 or 4 of as it seems to serve many different uses and can still save Obliterator from Dismember even if you have Heartless in play but I can't seem to find any more room.
So far the deck plays similar to the Mono Black Midrange from pre-Innistrad Standard, only without the power of Lashwrithe which may also find it's way back into the deck if Prey Upon doesn't work out but I've seen it do some amazing things so far.
Let me know what you think?
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
About Mindslaver rulings:
The sideboard is a bit of a mess. I like surgical extraction for solar flare to hit sun titan when they try to reanimate. Zenith and doom blade are for fast aggro, although this deck is pretty fast itself. The draw creatures are to help in control matches.
// Lands
4 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
4 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
10 [CST] Island (1)
3 [M11] Swamp (3)
// Creatures
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
4 [SOM] Grand Architect
4 [MBS] Treasure Mage
4 [M12] Solemn Simulacrum
4 [NPH] Myr Superion
4 [NPH] Spellskite
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
// Spells
4 [INN] Heartless Summoning
1 [SOM] Mindslaver
4 [M12] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M12] Doom Blade
SB: 2 [MBS] Black Sun's Zenith
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Molten-Tail Masticore
SB: 3 [INN] Bloodgift Demon
SB: 1 [MBS] Consecrated Sphinx
It can be a tempo play if they're sitting on a shaky hand and were relying on hitting some t2/t3 threat, or a mana dork, in order to make the hand playable.
My Trade Thread!
U/B control was a very different deck that had very different discard spells. The power of Inquisition of Kozilek taking equally powerful 1-drops (such as Goblin Guide, Steppe Lynx, etc) could not be understated. We don't have any truly powerful 1-drops in this format besides Reckless Waif.
There's just not any turn 1 pressure in this format, and even if there was, the discard spells we have access to are mostly underwhelming at buying us time to get to turn 4. I'd rather just run Doom Blade or Dismember.
(And technically it's not card disadvantage; you're trading 1-for-1. It's tempo disadvantage, because you're spending mana and your main phase to initiate the trade.)
My Trade Thread!
This. Also, stripping a Geist is going to be huge as he is going to be a HUGE pain the in the butt for most decks.
My decks
Top 4 (4th) SCG IQ 11/4/12
You're not going to see Heartless all the time and even if you get one, Obliterator is still a 4/4 for 4cmc.
Which begs the question... how many Heartless Summonings in play is too many? I usually stop with one in play, but I guess it depends on the deck.
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Artifacts:
3 Ratchet Bomb
Enchantments:
3 Heartless Summoning
4 Go for the Throat
4 Mana Leak
3 Negate
Sorceries:
4 Ponder
3 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Unburial Rites
Lands:
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Buried Ruin
5 Island
5 Swamp
1 Plains
Just like any Birthing Pod deck, it's extremely important that you build your deck around not having the key-card, but when you do get you're just going to blow the game up.
Draft My Cube!
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Rules Advisor
Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
My deck isn't a Heartless Summoning deck, per say.. It's a U/B control deck that uses Heartless to drop threats for cheaper and still have mana to counter. Although one could argue that I could replace the 3x Heartless with 3x Snapcaster Mage to create an infinitely better deck.. But I like the idea behind Heartless Summoning.
Would you say that 20 creatures with 4 HS is better? To me it seems like having 10 creatures with 3 HS is actually a better ratio.. Ask yourself: Who is going to be stuck casting creatures for full cost more often? My build? Or others? Who is going to be able to protect their (extra fragile) threats better? My build? Or others?
Draft My Cube!
Summary: Play a turn 4 Titan or sphinx every game. Overwhelm with a critical mass of high value creatures.
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacombs
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Island
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
3 Preist of Urabrask
3 Myr Superion
3 Phyrexian Rager
2 Urabrask the Hidden
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Frost Titan
3 Inferno Titan
4 Bloodgift Demon
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sheoldred, the Whispering One
4 Heartless Summoning
3 Sphere of the Suns
I'm not overly certain about Priest of Urabrask + Superion. I know I wouldn't run Superion without Priest of Urabrask, but this deck is so top-heavy I wanted at least a little on the low end to smooth things out. I may be pulling them in favor of more Titan-esque plays.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!