I've started running Think Twice over Blue Sun in my deck, then again I run 4 Devastation Tides, so the Miracle on the end of their turn can effectively give me a Temporal Mastery. I've run into very few situations where I was comfortable casting Blue Sun due to the high mana cost
It's definitely a powerful card in Miracle heavy builds. However it doesnt serve the purpose of closing the game out, which is a major function of Blue Sun in my current build. I find with Rites of Flourishing out, I am quickly at a high enough X to draw myself 3-5 cards. That's enough advantage to keep me in the game for the few extra turns you need to really lock it up.
4 Fog
2 Clinging Mists
2 Blunt the Assault
1 Divine Deflection
1 Elixer of Immortality
4 Ponder
3 Day of Judgement
2 Beast Within
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Terminus
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Jace, the Memory Adept
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Entreat the Angel's
2 Snapcaster's Mage
Sideboard:
3 Negate
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Celestial Purge
1 Beast Within
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, the Memory Adept
1 Divine Deflection
Still Deciding between Dissipate, 4th Negate, Garruk Relentless, and 3rd celestial purge/4 snapcaster for the Sideboard.
I have done a lot of testing against esper control, rg aggro, and both forms of aggro humans and this deck is insane against aggro. Hellrider is a problem but with Blunt the Assault to offset the damage, Day of judgement, beast within ect its manageable. I havent lost to rg aggro and the only close games were with helldriver. Control is so much better after SB whre Beast/Oring and negates kill their Planeswalkers while you are about to deck them. I REFUSE to run increasing devotion when I have access to Blue Sun's Zenith. Jace, elixer, zenith have all been all i needed.
Outside of Decking, Ultimate Garruk for 6/6 wurms and Entreat the Angels are a great kill condition. As well as Tamiyo's Ultimate.
I wouldn't play anything else this weekend. With that being said, what SB cards am I missing? Deck list is really tight so I can shift a card or Two over the next few days which i foresee. I haven't tested much against delver, which I will be doing tonight. So that should complete my final 75.
So I've been wanting to play a deck lately that makes use of planeswalkers since it seems like a fun alternative to just turning creatures sideways or saying no. So I came up with this, but I've never played turbofog before so I'm not sure what I'm missing.
I haven't decided on a sideboard yet, without knowing how the main list is and where my weaknesses are it makes a sideboard fairly pointless. I'm also a bit skeptical of the Venser/Stonehorn lock in this list. Since each card is only a two of I'm not sure how consistently I'll see it, even with all the draw power this deck has.
Other than Fog which is just too good, I was trying to run some of each fog regardless of how good they are, the reason is because I want to have resistance to Surgical Extraction. Being able to change that card from hitting 4 fogs to 2-3 is a rather decent advantage. It's also a decent strategy against Memoricide and Nevermore.
Also, what are peoples thoughts on Gavin Verhey's list he just recently posted in his column?
Current problems/issues are Liliana of the Veil and believe it or not, Infect decks. Infect puts on too much pressure too fast. I can't counter the infect or regain life from poison counters. Lili just screws me any time she's played. Maybe I should sideboard a little better?
Oblivion Ring that hits Jace. I can deal with it via Beast Within, but then I run into...
Grand Abolisher. I need to be holding a Black Sun to deal with him. Since I only run 2 in my deck now, it's almost game over if this clown lands on Turn 2.
Matchups:
Frites is a hit or miss. If I can Beast Within the Lili, I'll be fine. If not, I'm screwed. Oblivion Ring on my Jace is a major issue here too, as I have to choose between letting Lili eat up all my Fogs, or saving one of my two wincons.
Solar Flare: Oblivion Ring is the major issue here. I side in Spellbombs to make it a little better, and usually it doesn't matter too much before I deck them out.
R/G Aggro: Only Hellriders pose any real threat. Huntmaster flipping could cause issues, but usually not before my opponent is decked out.
WRR: Non issue. Only a problem if they have Surgical Extractions in their sideboard, and even still, I almost never run into it. Considering adding Mental Missteps sideboard if SE turns out to be an overly common sideboard card
RDW/Burn: Siding in Elixirs helps a ton. Blunt the Assault is a hero here, if they aren't running straight burn.
Delver: Hard matchup if they run lots of counterspells. Can usually Fog through to let Nephalia/Jace go to town. Siding in Negates helps a bit too.
Other variant aggro/pod: Almost no sideboarding needed. Maybe another Elixir in lieu of Blue Sun, but I've often just let it roll, allowing main deck to do the work.
Blink/Land Destruction(been seeing this alot actually): Hard matchup! a Conjurer's Closet/Venser combo with an Acidic Slime or Invader Parasite is game over usually. I just can't get a lock down without holding a Beast Within in hand. Surgical Extractions come out of sideboard, and I hope I can Beast Within the offender and Extract it. If not, game over.
Definitely looking for sideboarding plan and advice about the deck. I like the way everything works, I don't want to change the scheme of the deck. I feel Primevals are awesome deck thinning tools, and help to give me better draws without giving opponents any advantage. Titans combined with the Think Twice, Devastation Tide, and Abundant Growths absolutely make the deck work. Think Twice also allows for a nifty Miracle possibility on the opponents turn with Devastation Tide.
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Current problems/issues are Liliana of the Veil and believe it or not, Infect decks. Infect puts on too much pressure too fast. I can't counter the infect or regain life from poison counters. Lili just screws me any time she's played. Maybe I should sideboard a little better?
Oblivion Ring that hits Jace. I can deal with it via Beast Within, but then I run into...
Grand Abolisher. I need to be holding a Black Sun to deal with him. Since I only run 2 in my deck now, it's almost game over if this clown lands on Turn 2.
Matchups:
Frites is a hit or miss. If I can Beast Within the Lili, I'll be fine. If not, I'm screwed. Oblivion Ring on my Jace is a major issue here too, as I have to choose between letting Lili eat up all my Fogs, or saving one of my two wincons.
Solar Flare: Oblivion Ring is the major issue here. I side in Spellbombs to make it a little better, and usually it doesn't matter too much before I deck them out.
R/G Aggro: Only Hellriders pose any real threat. Huntmaster flipping could cause issues, but usually not before my opponent is decked out.
WRR: Non issue. Only a problem if they have Surgical Extractions in their sideboard, and even still, I almost never run into it. Considering adding Mental Missteps sideboard if SE turns out to be an overly common sideboard card
RDW/Burn: Siding in Elixirs helps a ton. Blunt the Assault is a hero here, if they aren't running straight burn.
Delver: Hard matchup if they run lots of counterspells. Can usually Fog through to let Nephalia/Jace go to town. Siding in Negates helps a bit too.
Other variant aggro/pod: Almost no sideboarding needed. Maybe another Elixir in lieu of Blue Sun, but I've often just let it roll, allowing main deck to do the work.
Blink/Land Destruction(been seeing this alot actually): Hard matchup! a Conjurer's Closet/Venser combo with an Acidic Slime or Invader Parasite is game over usually. I just can't get a lock down without holding a Beast Within in hand. Surgical Extractions come out of sideboard, and I hope I can Beast Within the offender and Extract it. If not, game over.
Definitely looking for sideboarding plan and advice about the deck. I like the way everything works, I don't want to change the scheme of the deck. I feel Primevals are awesome deck thinning tools, and help to give me better draws without giving opponents any advantage. Titans combined with the Think Twice, Devastation Tide, and Abundant Growths absolutely make the deck work. Think Twice also allows for a nifty Miracle possibility on the opponents turn with Devastation Tide.
Your deck is really lacking. You dont have any countinuous card draw like rites of flourishing.
With abundant growth I think the deck really should be bant now, the mana is good enogh
Quick question. is there ANY WAY to deal with Karn after he hits the field with this deck? any at all?
And to the quote in the post above.
If a planeswalker is o-ringed and comes back after o-ring is destroyed i'm pretty sure it looses all its counters and is immediatly destoryed.
The Planeswalker would return to the battlefield as if it had just come into play, so it would enter with it's printed Loyalty, provided nothing else modifies it such as Doubling Season
Whenever I see Venser in these list, I think about Sunblast Angel. It provides a decent body with an effect that should wipe your opponent's board pretty often, especially with Alchemist's Refuge for surprise drops. And with Venser you can just keep blinking the angel to wrath over and over again. It could take the place of one Day of Judgment, but I don't know if it's better than it.
Yea, seems really good. Along with all of the fog effects of course.
I actually keep Dreadwaters in my sideboard for my control matchup. I feel like Letting them use Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy is a fine trade-off for a more aggressive mill strategy. Milling still gets to be a plan, but I don't have to rely on them getting to draw every card in their deck.
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Your deck is really lacking. You dont have any countinuous card draw like rites of flourishing.
With abundant growth I think the deck really should be bant now, the mana is good enogh
You're right, I don't have any continuous card draw, per se. What I do have though, is many tools to draw more cards, and make my draws more effective.
Ex: Devastation Tide/Abundant Growth combo. Tide is pretty close to being a Fog. It only has issues against hasty critters, which I can usually afford to take another 2 dmg from a hasty Strangleroot and still be okay. Abundant Growths are drawing tools after a Tide, which I think is very much cool
Ex2: Primeval Titans thin out the deck. I can usually thin out at least 4 lands per Titan. I don't care if he dies after that, he effectively drew me 4 cards.
Ex3: Think Twice gives me 2 replacement cards, along with a possibility of a Devastation Tide on my opponents turn. This is freaking awesome, and is even sometimes more advisable than casting a Fog.
I used to run Rites of Flourishing and Mind Unbound, but I really think this deck has an advantage over those two. The Titans fuel Nephalia, Rampant Growth does the same thing, although I'm considering taking out Growths for something else, not sure what just yet(maybe Ponder?). My main argument against Rites/Mind Unbound is the prevalence of Acidic Slimes nowadays. Example: I crank out a Turn 3 Rites, only to have my opponent drop two lands along with their mana dork on turn 1, cast Acidic Slime and crush my Rites, giving them a 1 land, 2 card advantage(they drew an extra card, and killing my own before I even got to use it). This gets even worse after sideboarding happens, and they bring in hate.
I've considered adding 1x Alchemist's Refuge for Devastation Tide/Black Sun shenanigans, or even Titan shenanigans for a surprise blocker.
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Has anyone tried Marrow Shards for the sideboard against decks that run Lingering Souls?
Dont these decks also run pump cards like Gavony Township and 1W enchantment all tokens get +1/1
Doesnt seem viable if they do.
Dreadwaters is ok, but I don't see it as being better than increasing confusion, unless you are going for more aggro mill, which you dont need to. If you are controlling the game you don;t need to worry about winning a few turns earlier.
To those running Tamiyo in their builds. What numbers of her are you using? One or two? Should one be fine?
I recently took interest into building a Turbo Fog list but had a hard time selecting what colors to go with. I decided to go with mill fog since it seemed more annoying and added Karn for a chance of being really annoying and restarting the game. Aside from mill, I added in Inkmoths to poison my opponent but also have them to allow a target for Terrifying Presence. I went with T Pres over Moonmist since there's a decent amount of werewolves I play against. Deva Tide is suppose to act like a wrath for any and all annoying things on the board. Granted my opponents could just recast stuff and it can return some of my useful permanents, but it slows them down again. Plus, it wreaks havoc on tokens.
I was thinking possibly including Tree of Redemption but was unsure. I would like to add in Snapcaster Mage and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage but I own none and they're a bit pricy right now. I plan on getting another Jace or two since he's fun for me. The list isn't perfect, so any input would be great.
Been tinkering with the idea of including 4x Chalice of Life in the board as an alternate Win-Con and to shut down Burn.
Went 3-0-1 tonight at FNM. Before the tournament started, I swapped 1 Timely for 1 Elixir to the Sideboard to Mainboard a second Jace.
Every game was against a W/x Humans deck.
So I've been testing a deck out and I'm finding it has a lot of trouble against u/w humans. Thalia and Mana Leak post board really make things tough. Are there any good ways to deal with that? Killing Thalia doesn't seem like a solution since the extra draw this deck gives the opponent ensures they find another rather quickly.
So I've been testing a deck out and I'm finding it has a lot of trouble against u/w humans. Thalia and Mana Leak post board really make things tough. Are there any good ways to deal with that? Killing Thalia doesn't seem like a solution since the extra draw this deck gives the opponent ensures they find another rather quickly.
..."a deck"?
We can't help you if we don't know what we're working with.
Generally, Thalia is only a problem if your deck is non-interactive/poorly constructed, as TurboFog pushes people toward that trap. Fortunately, you have many, many tools to help eliminate Thalia, or shrug her off entirely. Interact more, worry less.
Mana Leak, however... THAT has been making things tough for you? How many Fog do you play? How many Day of Judgment do you play? How many Clinging Mists do you play? How many Blunt the Assault do you play? How many Negate do you play? How many win conditions do you play? If the answer to any of the aforementioned is one or less, you should probably fix that right away. Mana Leak is easily baited, and by the time you're taking game-loss damage, you should be able to triple Fog, and you should've known well enough to hold the mana up in case. Negate protecting Day of Judgment forces through after the first Leaked Fog, too, and it helps considerably. You should LOVE seeing Mana Leak, because it means your opponent is stupid enough to still be playing it over Dissipate (which hurts).
Generally, Thalia is only a problem if your deck is non-interactive/poorly constructed, as TurboFog pushes people toward that trap. Fortunately, you have many, many tools to help eliminate Thalia, or shrug her off entirely. Interact more, worry less.
The problem is, I frequently find myself drawing Blunt the Assault and Clinging Mists as my fogs. Against humans which gets turn 4 kills on the play, they get lethal before I even have the mana to fog. Or I get put in a situation on turn 4 where I have say 2 fogs and a Rites of Flourishing in hand while they have lethal on the board. Thalia means playing the Rites is a loss since I can't fog but not playing the Rites means it's likely a loss too (the outs there being a Terminus or a land, neither of which I've found consistent enough).
Mana Leak, however... THAT has been making things tough for you?
I've lost multiple games now where lethal gets swung, I fog, they leak, I pay it, they leak again, and I lose. An individual leak isn't too tough to play around, a double leak with Thalia is something I haven't found a consistent way to beat.
I took a break from MTG a few months ago, and I recently decided to get back into it because I saw Otherworld Atlas and it reminded me of Temple Bell (but not as good) and I loved playing TurboFog. I'd like some feedback on my deck list above and maybe some suggestions for my sideboard.
Right now I'm thinking that the board should look something like:
1 timely reinforcements
1 beast within
2-4 witchbane orb
3-4 negate
2-3 oblivion ring
2-3 surgical extraction
Maybe Divine Deflection?
But I'm not familiar enough with the meta or the cards from DKA/AVR to know what I should be putting in the board.
Any input you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Really though, you're playing a lot of sketchy stuff.
Six Planeswalkers, when you barely need one to do serious work. You never need a second walker on the board, regardless of whichever one you have down. This deck wants to stick one win condition, and let it win, not stick one win condition, stick a second win condition, get upset when that gets ignored and stick a third to rub it in. Trimming the fat means these guys are the first to go, in my opinion.
Terrible fog is terrible. Moonmist and Terrifying Presence are unplayable. Even with 4 Stonehorn, 4 Spellskite, and 4 Timely maindeck, TP is just BAD (and you aren't even playing a heavy creature base), and Moonmist turns into a dead draw when you cannot afford it. You already have access to five better "fogs" (DoJ, Terminus, Fog, Clinging Mists, Blunt the Assault), which means there are at least twenty cards you should play before you ever sleeve those things up.
Why are you sideboarding Timely Reinforcements so heavily, when it's easily one of the best cards in the deck against EVERYTHING. It Time Walks Grave Titan and Sun Titan chains, laughs at Huntmaster, Geist, and Thrun for about twelve turns a game, and makes that human deck stall out behind their Thalia/Abolisher long enough for you to sweep it off the board. Maindeck it.
Three Ponder is one too few, or three too many. Either play it, or don't, but don't play three.
The problem is, I frequently find myself drawing Blunt the Assault and Clinging Mists as my fogs. Against humans which gets turn 4 kills on the play, they get lethal before I even have the mana to fog. Or I get put in a situation on turn 4 where I have say 2 fogs and a Rites of Flourishing in hand while they have lethal on the board. Thalia means playing the Rites is a loss since I can't fog but not playing the Rites means it's likely a loss too (the outs there being a Terminus or a land, neither of which I've found consistent enough).
Are we both thinking about the same U/W Humans deck? The same U/W Humans deck that stopped playing Angelic Destiny seventy nine weeks ago? Even when you do find those straggling few players desperately clinging on to the bad Aura, it's played as a 2-of at most. Where are these turn 4 wins coming from!?
Against U/W Humans, turn 1 Ponder -> Turn 3/4 Timely Reinforcements means I have a turn 7. Turn 1 Elixir, turn 2 activate means I have a turn 7. Turn 1 anything, turn 2 anything, turn 3 anything, turn 4 anything, turn 5 anything, turn 6 fog means I have a turn 7.
You're doing something wrong if you're rolling over that easily to a deck that has absolutely nothing in the way of reach. They have literally NO way to hurt you beyond the combat phase. Serious question here: Do you know you're playing TurboFog? Even when you don't have the Turbo, you still have fog, and even when you don't have fog, you still aren't playing against Kuldotha Red or ANT every other matchup (in other words, you'll survive long enough to find what you need).
I've lost multiple games now where lethal gets swung, I fog, they leak, I pay it, they leak again, and I lose. An individual leak isn't too tough to play around, a double leak with Thalia is something I haven't found a consistent way to beat.
First: WHO PLAYS MANA LEAK WITH THALIA!? Dissipate is clearly the relevant choice here, and presents a much more understandable problem for us. If your problem is Mana Leak, you're not playing the same deck most of us seem to be playing.
If you can't fog three times by the time you let your opponent stick lethal on the board, your deck needs to change. If you're staring down the magical "turn 4" win of Mirran Crusader with an Angelic Destiny (let's pretend your opponent hit a Temporal Mastery three times in a row and had the mana to slap it on and swing a couple times) backed by Thalia and six mana-double Mana Leak, just shrug and move on.
You don't need to find ways to consistently beat situations that come up once a year. You will not be in the feature match of a national event playing Turbofog, losing to triple Mana Leak with Thalia on the board. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
Find ways to beat real, common, obvious, logical, readily acknowledged lines of play before you worry about hilariously unlikely scenarios that will not play out beyond kitchen tables. Worry more about turn 4 Hellrider after Geist has been forcing early pressure. Worry about turn 2 Shrine that three top decks are tossing around casually. Worry about turn 3 Liliana. Worry about turn 2 Birthing Pod. Worry about turn 4 Unburial Rites for Jin-Gitaxias. DO NOT worry about turn 4 double Mana Leak against Thalia while an Angelic Destiny'd Mirran Crusader is swinging on you.
1 timely reinforcements
1 beast within
2-4 witchbane orb
3-4 negate
2-3 oblivion ring
2-3 surgical extraction
Any input you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Pretty cool deck, guy!
Witchbane Orb should not see play outside of block. It does nothing to fill a void in your gameplan. Your lifegain outpaces any amount of burn, short of a Shrine that got out of hand (and I use Tamiyo/Beast Within to solve that issue).
Negate is maindeck-worthy. It covers every significant threat your other 56-57 cards cannot/will not. Compare the matches you would side it in vs. the matches you would side it out. You already won game 1 if you're siding it out, I assure you.
O-Ring is getting worse by the day, though, in my experience. Just play more direct answers. If your problem is Gravecrawler recursion or Liliana, play Celestial Purge. If your problem is Birthing Pod, play Revoke Existence. If your problem is opposing O-Rings or something stupid like Nevermore, play Ray of Revelation.
Surgical Extraction is a toss up, for me. I removed it for Stony Silence, which does more to cover oddball threats like Mortarpod, Shrine, Birthing Pod, and other sketchy devices that bypass our fog.
Consider Feeling of Dread to push you even further ahead in the aggro matchup, and that's all you should really need to combat aggro in your sideboard.
Really though, you're playing a lot of sketchy stuff.[LIST]
[*][B]Six Planeswalkers[/B], when you barely need one to do serious work. You never need a second walker on the board, regardless of whichever one you have down. This deck wants to stick one win condition, and let it win, not stick one win condition, stick a second win condition, get upset when that gets ignored and stick a third to rub it in. Trimming the fat means these guys are the first to go, in my opinion.
Tamiyo and Karn are there just to try out, I haven't been impressed with them though so they'll probably get cut (although Tamiyo's -2 has saved me a couple times). Venser (with Stonehorn) has been quite good though, the two cards compliment each other well. If I cut one of them it's probably best to cut both but when running through a gauntlet of decks that are actually at my local shop, Venser/Stonehorn ends up proving it's worth against WRR and RDW by shutting down damage from Inferno Titan attacks and denying Hellrider a chance to swing.
[*][B]Terrible fog is terrible[/B]. Moonmist and Terrifying Presence are unplayable. Even with 4 Stonehorn, 4 Spellskite, and 4 Timely maindeck, TP is just BAD (and you aren't even playing a heavy creature base), and Moonmist turns into a dead draw when you cannot afford it. You already have access to five better "fogs" (DoJ, Terminus, Fog, Clinging Mists, Blunt the Assault), which means there are at least twenty cards you should play before you ever sleeve those things up.
It's a defense against Surgical Extraction which is run pretty heavily in my area. They're not ideal fogs, but by using a few of each fog it mitigates the hit when they rip a few out of the deck.
Are we both thinking about the same U/W Humans deck? The same U/W Humans deck that stopped playing Angelic Destiny seventy nine weeks ago? Even when you [I]do[/I] find those straggling few players desperately clinging on to the bad Aura, it's played as a 2-of at most. Where are these turn 4 wins coming from!?
The ones around here all run 4 Angelic Destiny. That's not even required for a turn 4 win though.
Turn 1 - Champion
Turn 2 - Thalia
Turn 3 - Silverblade Paladin bonded to champion
That's lethal on turn 4 with nothing else on the board. Honestly, Angelic Destiny doesn't give me any issues since by the time it comes down I'll either be able to fog everything or die anyways.
You're doing something wrong if you're rolling over that easily to a deck that has absolutely nothing in the way of reach. They have literally NO way to hurt you beyond the combat phase. Serious question here: [I][B]Do you know you're playing TurboFog?[/B][/I] Even when you don't have the Turbo, you still have fog, and even when you don't have fog, you still aren't playing against Kuldotha Red or ANT every other matchup (in other words, you'll survive long enough to find what you need).
Game 1 the record when I've run my deck against humans is 9-0, it's after the sideboard where their matchup improves since they lose cards that are too slow to kill me before fogs start rolling out like Hero of Bladehold and Angelic Destiny and instead gain Mana Leak and Thalia (fortunately the decks in my meta don't run Grand Abolisher so I don't have to deal with that). It might not be the smartest choice, but that's what the decks around here run and it's giving me problems post board since the matchup drops from a near 100% win rate to about 40%.
First: [B]WHO PLAYS MANA LEAK WITH THALIA!? [/B]Dissipate is clearly the relevant choice here, and presents a much more understandable problem for us. If your problem is Mana Leak, you're not playing the same deck most of us seem to be playing.
The sideboard for the human deck I've tested against is 3 Revoke Existence, 4 Mana Leak, 4 Thalia, 4 Day of Judgment. Whether or not that's the best call, that's what my meta is running so that's what I need to tune against.
You don't need to find ways to consistently beat situations that come up once a year. You will not be in the feature match of a national event playing Turbofog, losing to triple Mana Leak with Thalia on the board. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
In 17 post board games I've had a double or triple leak come up 5 times, that's often enough to be concerned with needing a way to beat it.
List tags are malformed.
It's definitely a powerful card in Miracle heavy builds. However it doesnt serve the purpose of closing the game out, which is a major function of Blue Sun in my current build. I find with Rites of Flourishing out, I am quickly at a high enough X to draw myself 3-5 cards. That's enough advantage to keep me in the game for the few extra turns you need to really lock it up.
Riku of Two Reflections
Kemba, Kha Regent
2 Otherworld Atlas
4 Fog
2 Clinging Mists
2 Blunt the Assault
1 Divine Deflection
1 Elixer of Immortality
4 Ponder
3 Day of Judgement
2 Beast Within
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Terminus
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Jace, the Memory Adept
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Entreat the Angel's
2 Snapcaster's Mage
3 Hinterland Harbor
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Plains
4 Forest
4 Islands
Sideboard:
3 Negate
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Celestial Purge
1 Beast Within
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, the Memory Adept
1 Divine Deflection
Still Deciding between Dissipate, 4th Negate, Garruk Relentless, and 3rd celestial purge/4 snapcaster for the Sideboard.
I have done a lot of testing against esper control, rg aggro, and both forms of aggro humans and this deck is insane against aggro. Hellrider is a problem but with Blunt the Assault to offset the damage, Day of judgement, beast within ect its manageable. I havent lost to rg aggro and the only close games were with helldriver. Control is so much better after SB whre Beast/Oring and negates kill their Planeswalkers while you are about to deck them. I REFUSE to run increasing devotion when I have access to Blue Sun's Zenith. Jace, elixer, zenith have all been all i needed.
Outside of Decking, Ultimate Garruk for 6/6 wurms and Entreat the Angels are a great kill condition. As well as Tamiyo's Ultimate.
I wouldn't play anything else this weekend. With that being said, what SB cards am I missing? Deck list is really tight so I can shift a card or Two over the next few days which i foresee. I haven't tested much against delver, which I will be doing tonight. So that should complete my final 75.
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
7 Island
2 Glacial Fortress
6 Forest
1 Plains
Creatures 2
2 Stonehorn Dignitary
2 Venser, the Sojourner
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Karn Liberated
Spells 20
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Beast Within
3 Ponder
2 Terrifying Presence
2 Clinging Mists
3 Blunt the Assault
2 Moonmist
4 Fog
4 Rites of Fluorishing
Artifact 5
2 Otherworld Atlas
3 Elixir of Immortality
I haven't decided on a sideboard yet, without knowing how the main list is and where my weaknesses are it makes a sideboard fairly pointless. I'm also a bit skeptical of the Venser/Stonehorn lock in this list. Since each card is only a two of I'm not sure how consistently I'll see it, even with all the draw power this deck has.
Other than Fog which is just too good, I was trying to run some of each fog regardless of how good they are, the reason is because I want to have resistance to Surgical Extraction. Being able to change that card from hitting 4 fogs to 2-3 is a rather decent advantage. It's also a decent strategy against Memoricide and Nevermore.
Also, what are peoples thoughts on Gavin Verhey's list he just recently posted in his column?
1x Elixir of Immortality
Enchantments
4x Abundant Growth
Instants
3x Beast Within
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Blunt the Assault
4x Fog
4x Think Twice
Sorceries
4x Devastation Tide
4x Rampant Growth
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Jace, Memory Adept
Land
2x Drowned Catacomb
3x Nephalia Drownyard
9x Forest
4x Hinterland Harber
4x Island
2x Swamp
2x Elixir of Immortality
4x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Negate
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Jace, Memory Adept
Current problems/issues are Liliana of the Veil and believe it or not, Infect decks. Infect puts on too much pressure too fast. I can't counter the infect or regain life from poison counters. Lili just screws me any time she's played. Maybe I should sideboard a little better?
Oblivion Ring that hits Jace. I can deal with it via Beast Within, but then I run into...
Grand Abolisher. I need to be holding a Black Sun to deal with him. Since I only run 2 in my deck now, it's almost game over if this clown lands on Turn 2.
Matchups:
Frites is a hit or miss. If I can Beast Within the Lili, I'll be fine. If not, I'm screwed. Oblivion Ring on my Jace is a major issue here too, as I have to choose between letting Lili eat up all my Fogs, or saving one of my two wincons.
Solar Flare: Oblivion Ring is the major issue here. I side in Spellbombs to make it a little better, and usually it doesn't matter too much before I deck them out.
R/G Aggro: Only Hellriders pose any real threat. Huntmaster flipping could cause issues, but usually not before my opponent is decked out.
WRR: Non issue. Only a problem if they have Surgical Extractions in their sideboard, and even still, I almost never run into it. Considering adding Mental Missteps sideboard if SE turns out to be an overly common sideboard card
RDW/Burn: Siding in Elixirs helps a ton. Blunt the Assault is a hero here, if they aren't running straight burn.
Delver: Hard matchup if they run lots of counterspells. Can usually Fog through to let Nephalia/Jace go to town. Siding in Negates helps a bit too.
Other variant aggro/pod: Almost no sideboarding needed. Maybe another Elixir in lieu of Blue Sun, but I've often just let it roll, allowing main deck to do the work.
Blink/Land Destruction(been seeing this alot actually): Hard matchup! a Conjurer's Closet/Venser combo with an Acidic Slime or Invader Parasite is game over usually. I just can't get a lock down without holding a Beast Within in hand. Surgical Extractions come out of sideboard, and I hope I can Beast Within the offender and Extract it. If not, game over.
Definitely looking for sideboarding plan and advice about the deck. I like the way everything works, I don't want to change the scheme of the deck. I feel Primevals are awesome deck thinning tools, and help to give me better draws without giving opponents any advantage. Titans combined with the Think Twice, Devastation Tide, and Abundant Growths absolutely make the deck work. Think Twice also allows for a nifty Miracle possibility on the opponents turn with Devastation Tide.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Your deck is really lacking. You dont have any countinuous card draw like rites of flourishing.
With abundant growth I think the deck really should be bant now, the mana is good enogh
My errata'd commons cube
And to the quote in the post above.
If a planeswalker is o-ringed and comes back after o-ring is destroyed i'm pretty sure it looses all its counters and is immediatly destoryed.
The Planeswalker would return to the battlefield as if it had just come into play, so it would enter with it's printed Loyalty, provided nothing else modifies it such as Doubling Season
2x Elixir of Immortality
2x Trinket Mage
4x Stonehorn Dignitary
4x Rites of Flourishing
3x Razorverge Thicket
3x Seachrome Coast
3x Glacial Fortress
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Plains
3x Island
3x Forest
2x Hinterland Harbor
2x Alchemist's Refuge
2x Venser, the Sojourner
1x Karn Liberated
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2x Blunt the Assault
4x Day of Judgment
4x Ponder
4x Fog
2x Moonmist
2x Increasing Confusion
2x Mimic Vat
2x Beast Within
3x Celestial Purge
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Negate
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
Been tinkering with the idea of including 4x Chalice of Life in the board as an alternate Win-Con and to shut down Burn.
Rites of Flourishing + Dreadwaters
Yea, seems really good. Along with all of the fog effects of course.
I actually keep Dreadwaters in my sideboard for my control matchup. I feel like Letting them use Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy is a fine trade-off for a more aggressive mill strategy. Milling still gets to be a plan, but I don't have to rely on them getting to draw every card in their deck.
RUG Delver GUR
WUBRGControlGRBUW
Of course, you would have to be running a higher than usual land count.
You're right, I don't have any continuous card draw, per se. What I do have though, is many tools to draw more cards, and make my draws more effective.
Ex: Devastation Tide/Abundant Growth combo. Tide is pretty close to being a Fog. It only has issues against hasty critters, which I can usually afford to take another 2 dmg from a hasty Strangleroot and still be okay. Abundant Growths are drawing tools after a Tide, which I think is very much cool
Ex2: Primeval Titans thin out the deck. I can usually thin out at least 4 lands per Titan. I don't care if he dies after that, he effectively drew me 4 cards.
Ex3: Think Twice gives me 2 replacement cards, along with a possibility of a Devastation Tide on my opponents turn. This is freaking awesome, and is even sometimes more advisable than casting a Fog.
I used to run Rites of Flourishing and Mind Unbound, but I really think this deck has an advantage over those two. The Titans fuel Nephalia, Rampant Growth does the same thing, although I'm considering taking out Growths for something else, not sure what just yet(maybe Ponder?). My main argument against Rites/Mind Unbound is the prevalence of Acidic Slimes nowadays. Example: I crank out a Turn 3 Rites, only to have my opponent drop two lands along with their mana dork on turn 1, cast Acidic Slime and crush my Rites, giving them a 1 land, 2 card advantage(they drew an extra card, and killing my own before I even got to use it). This gets even worse after sideboarding happens, and they bring in hate.
I've considered adding 1x Alchemist's Refuge for Devastation Tide/Black Sun shenanigans, or even Titan shenanigans for a surprise blocker.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Dont these decks also run pump cards like Gavony Township and 1W enchantment all tokens get +1/1
Doesnt seem viable if they do.
Dreadwaters is ok, but I don't see it as being better than increasing confusion, unless you are going for more aggro mill, which you dont need to. If you are controlling the game you don;t need to worry about winning a few turns earlier.
To those running Tamiyo in their builds. What numbers of her are you using? One or two? Should one be fine?
4x Beast Within
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
2x Blunt the Assault
3x Clinging Mists
4x Fog
3x Terrifying Presence
Sorcery
3x Devastation Tide
2x Increasing Confusion
4x Ponder
4x Rites of Flourishing
Planeswalker
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Karn Liberated
Artifact
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Otherworld Atlas
Land
7x Forest
2x Alchemist's Refuge
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Inkmoth Nexus
6x Island
4x Dissipate
4x Negate
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Witchbane Orb
I recently took interest into building a Turbo Fog list but had a hard time selecting what colors to go with. I decided to go with mill fog since it seemed more annoying and added Karn for a chance of being really annoying and restarting the game. Aside from mill, I added in Inkmoths to poison my opponent but also have them to allow a target for Terrifying Presence. I went with T Pres over Moonmist since there's a decent amount of werewolves I play against. Deva Tide is suppose to act like a wrath for any and all annoying things on the board. Granted my opponents could just recast stuff and it can return some of my useful permanents, but it slows them down again. Plus, it wreaks havoc on tokens.
I was thinking possibly including Tree of Redemption but was unsure. I would like to add in Snapcaster Mage and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage but I own none and they're a bit pricy right now. I plan on getting another Jace or two since he's fun for me. The list isn't perfect, so any input would be great.
^ how is karn doing for you?
how about devestation tide?
Went 3-0-1 tonight at FNM. Before the tournament started, I swapped 1 Timely for 1 Elixir to the Sideboard to Mainboard a second Jace.
Every game was against a W/x Humans deck.
..."a deck"?
We can't help you if we don't know what we're working with.
Generally, Thalia is only a problem if your deck is non-interactive/poorly constructed, as TurboFog pushes people toward that trap. Fortunately, you have many, many tools to help eliminate Thalia, or shrug her off entirely. Interact more, worry less.
Mana Leak, however... THAT has been making things tough for you? How many Fog do you play? How many Day of Judgment do you play? How many Clinging Mists do you play? How many Blunt the Assault do you play? How many Negate do you play? How many win conditions do you play? If the answer to any of the aforementioned is one or less, you should probably fix that right away. Mana Leak is easily baited, and by the time you're taking game-loss damage, you should be able to triple Fog, and you should've known well enough to hold the mana up in case. Negate protecting Day of Judgment forces through after the first Leaked Fog, too, and it helps considerably. You should LOVE seeing Mana Leak, because it means your opponent is stupid enough to still be playing it over Dissipate (which hurts).
It's posted 1 page back, post 481. Here it is again though:
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
7 Island
2 Glacial Fortress
6 Forest
1 Plains
Creatures 3
3 Stonehorn Dignitary
Planeswalkers 6
2 Venser, the Sojourner
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Karn Liberated
3 Beast Within
3 Ponder
2 Terrifying Presence
2 Clinging Mists
3 Blunt the Assault
2 Moonmist
4 Fog
Enchantments 4
4 Rites of Fluorishing
Artifact 5
2 Otherworld Atlas
3 Elixir of Immortality
1 Stonehorn Dignitary
1 Blunt the Assault
2 Clinging Mists
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Terminus
5 Undecided
The problem is, I frequently find myself drawing Blunt the Assault and Clinging Mists as my fogs. Against humans which gets turn 4 kills on the play, they get lethal before I even have the mana to fog. Or I get put in a situation on turn 4 where I have say 2 fogs and a Rites of Flourishing in hand while they have lethal on the board. Thalia means playing the Rites is a loss since I can't fog but not playing the Rites means it's likely a loss too (the outs there being a Terminus or a land, neither of which I've found consistent enough).
I've lost multiple games now where lethal gets swung, I fog, they leak, I pay it, they leak again, and I lose. An individual leak isn't too tough to play around, a double leak with Thalia is something I haven't found a consistent way to beat.
3 elixir of immortality
2 other world atlas
Enchantments-
4 rites of flourishing
Sorcercies-
4 ponder
4 day of judgment
3 timely reinforcements
2 increasing confusion
1 terminus
4 fog
3 blunt the assault
3 clinging mists
3 beast within
Lands-
8 forest
4 island
4 plains
2 glacial fortress
2 sunpetal grove
2 hinterland harbor
2 alchemist's refuge
I took a break from MTG a few months ago, and I recently decided to get back into it because I saw Otherworld Atlas and it reminded me of Temple Bell (but not as good) and I loved playing TurboFog. I'd like some feedback on my deck list above and maybe some suggestions for my sideboard.
Right now I'm thinking that the board should look something like:
1 timely reinforcements
1 beast within
2-4 witchbane orb
3-4 negate
2-3 oblivion ring
2-3 surgical extraction
Maybe Divine Deflection?
But I'm not familiar enough with the meta or the cards from DKA/AVR to know what I should be putting in the board.
Any input you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Apologies, and thanks. I'm losing interest in the thread with all of the bad Abundant Growth draw engine nonsense flying around.
...why... why!?... WHYY!!?!?!?
Really though, you're playing a lot of sketchy stuff.
Are we both thinking about the same U/W Humans deck? The same U/W Humans deck that stopped playing Angelic Destiny seventy nine weeks ago? Even when you do find those straggling few players desperately clinging on to the bad Aura, it's played as a 2-of at most. Where are these turn 4 wins coming from!?
Against U/W Humans, turn 1 Ponder -> Turn 3/4 Timely Reinforcements means I have a turn 7. Turn 1 Elixir, turn 2 activate means I have a turn 7. Turn 1 anything, turn 2 anything, turn 3 anything, turn 4 anything, turn 5 anything, turn 6 fog means I have a turn 7.
You're doing something wrong if you're rolling over that easily to a deck that has absolutely nothing in the way of reach. They have literally NO way to hurt you beyond the combat phase. Serious question here: Do you know you're playing TurboFog? Even when you don't have the Turbo, you still have fog, and even when you don't have fog, you still aren't playing against Kuldotha Red or ANT every other matchup (in other words, you'll survive long enough to find what you need).
First: WHO PLAYS MANA LEAK WITH THALIA!? Dissipate is clearly the relevant choice here, and presents a much more understandable problem for us. If your problem is Mana Leak, you're not playing the same deck most of us seem to be playing.
If you can't fog three times by the time you let your opponent stick lethal on the board, your deck needs to change. If you're staring down the magical "turn 4" win of Mirran Crusader with an Angelic Destiny (let's pretend your opponent hit a Temporal Mastery three times in a row and had the mana to slap it on and swing a couple times) backed by Thalia and six mana-double Mana Leak, just shrug and move on.
You don't need to find ways to consistently beat situations that come up once a year. You will not be in the feature match of a national event playing Turbofog, losing to triple Mana Leak with Thalia on the board. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
Find ways to beat real, common, obvious, logical, readily acknowledged lines of play before you worry about hilariously unlikely scenarios that will not play out beyond kitchen tables. Worry more about turn 4 Hellrider after Geist has been forcing early pressure. Worry about turn 2 Shrine that three top decks are tossing around casually. Worry about turn 3 Liliana. Worry about turn 2 Birthing Pod. Worry about turn 4 Unburial Rites for Jin-Gitaxias. DO NOT worry about turn 4 double Mana Leak against Thalia while an Angelic Destiny'd Mirran Crusader is swinging on you.
Pretty cool deck, guy!
Witchbane Orb should not see play outside of block. It does nothing to fill a void in your gameplan. Your lifegain outpaces any amount of burn, short of a Shrine that got out of hand (and I use Tamiyo/Beast Within to solve that issue).
Negate is maindeck-worthy. It covers every significant threat your other 56-57 cards cannot/will not. Compare the matches you would side it in vs. the matches you would side it out. You already won game 1 if you're siding it out, I assure you.
O-Ring is getting worse by the day, though, in my experience. Just play more direct answers. If your problem is Gravecrawler recursion or Liliana, play Celestial Purge. If your problem is Birthing Pod, play Revoke Existence. If your problem is opposing O-Rings or something stupid like Nevermore, play Ray of Revelation.
Surgical Extraction is a toss up, for me. I removed it for Stony Silence, which does more to cover oddball threats like Mortarpod, Shrine, Birthing Pod, and other sketchy devices that bypass our fog.
Consider Feeling of Dread to push you even further ahead in the aggro matchup, and that's all you should really need to combat aggro in your sideboard.
Tamiyo and Karn are there just to try out, I haven't been impressed with them though so they'll probably get cut (although Tamiyo's -2 has saved me a couple times). Venser (with Stonehorn) has been quite good though, the two cards compliment each other well. If I cut one of them it's probably best to cut both but when running through a gauntlet of decks that are actually at my local shop, Venser/Stonehorn ends up proving it's worth against WRR and RDW by shutting down damage from Inferno Titan attacks and denying Hellrider a chance to swing.
It's a defense against Surgical Extraction which is run pretty heavily in my area. They're not ideal fogs, but by using a few of each fog it mitigates the hit when they rip a few out of the deck.
The ones around here all run 4 Angelic Destiny. That's not even required for a turn 4 win though.
Turn 1 - Champion
Turn 2 - Thalia
Turn 3 - Silverblade Paladin bonded to champion
That's lethal on turn 4 with nothing else on the board. Honestly, Angelic Destiny doesn't give me any issues since by the time it comes down I'll either be able to fog everything or die anyways.
Game 1 the record when I've run my deck against humans is 9-0, it's after the sideboard where their matchup improves since they lose cards that are too slow to kill me before fogs start rolling out like Hero of Bladehold and Angelic Destiny and instead gain Mana Leak and Thalia (fortunately the decks in my meta don't run Grand Abolisher so I don't have to deal with that). It might not be the smartest choice, but that's what the decks around here run and it's giving me problems post board since the matchup drops from a near 100% win rate to about 40%.
The sideboard for the human deck I've tested against is 3 Revoke Existence, 4 Mana Leak, 4 Thalia, 4 Day of Judgment. Whether or not that's the best call, that's what my meta is running so that's what I need to tune against.
In 17 post board games I've had a double or triple leak come up 5 times, that's often enough to be concerned with needing a way to beat it.
List tags are malformed.