It's not as much a turbo fog as a "keep jace 3/4 turns on the board and win", where the fog shines. Jace serves double duty as both a kill and a turbo when you can't afford to mill them. Unfortunatly, rites and atlas aren't reliable enough to keep the engine runing. A single O-ring on a rite can lead the deck to loose pretty badly (the beast are a catch all, to nuke PW or enchantments).
I'm only running one venser because it has absolutly no interaction with the deck. Yet sometimes, you win on the spot thanks to a dignitary, so it worth at least one slot.
I didn't read the whole thread... (forgive me etc... if this was already talked about) Why are you guys not playing with Temporal Mastery? It seems sweet with Rites of Flourishing and any walkers you use. I know that how some of the older turbo fogs decks worked when time warp was legal.
OK. Thanks. One small question though. If an O-Ring can ruin our day why not run Redirect instead of Negate?
By running Negate we're essentially saying "We don't care what creatures you put down. We only care about spells that target us/our permanents/other permanents of yours we don't like". Wouldn't it make more sense to direct that pesky O-Ring/burn spell to one of our opponents threats? Or is just there for Planeswalkers?
redirect doesn't really take care of O-ring
Negate is just way better overall, it counters PWs (mostly karn and liliana), spell that do not target (i needed to counter a DoJ once, so that my opponent wouldn't be able to kill his own red titan while he was venser-locked)
On a more general note, negate is 1U and redirect UU, redirecting burn is useless unless it is lethal in the first place (which it should never be if you opponent play well).
Well negate is almost always the better spell to have in your hand
Mono Red (duh)
Tokens (any variation, but BWG is what I've played the most of)
RG Aggro (yeah...I hate Strangleroot Giest)
Out of these three decks, I have to be prepared for RG Aggro the most because it is the most popular. So question: are there any silver bullets against that deck?
I haven't really played this standard but the fogs availible look absolutely horrible. Some of these decks are depending on a 4 mana fog...
Like this deck seems like it's not viable at any level of competition, am I missing something?[/deck]
You're missing a lot. In the right meta, this deck is borderline unbeatable. It has positive matchups against U/B Control, both U/R and U/W Delver, an all-but bye against Wolf Run Variants as long as you go in expecting Devil's Play as well as B/W Tokens (who can't answer you whatsoever), manages Zombies, wrecks new upstarts like Miracle spam and W/R Aggro, and has a coin flip game 1 against RDW (with a much-improved matchup from there). RG Aggro has a lot of game here now that you're looking at Shrine as the 2-drop alternating with Geist, but Hellrider is your main problem otherwise.
W/U Humans is generally positive, but I just came across WUR Humans (American Man) that essentially played the most absurdly potent humans in the format and topped it off with Burn at the Stake and Vapor Snag for tempo. That was messy the first time I saw it.
The only rough deck all-around is Birthing Pod. Their Acidic Slime spam, combined with a toolbox to answer anything irritating is just too much unless you answer Pod early. Slime is worse for us here, as they just keep recycling it every time we have to Elixir out (which is often when staring down Geist).
@the guy running temporal mastery, 7 mana time warp is not good. and how is Tamiyo a win condition?
Temporal Mastery in this deck isn't that far-fetched. If it didn't exile itself, I'd play four. Seven mana is a turn 5 play, here, and you always hit turn 5.
Tamiyo can win off of anything. Beast Within spam blows up their board, Feeling of Dread is equivalent to a less fragile Stonehorn lock, endless lifegain limited only by your mana, etc. It's generally a win condition in the way Shadowmage Infiltrator has been over time. Card advantage kills.
How long should a game with turbofog last? I tried using your exact decklist Chosen1 (sans the one Tamiyo for a second atlas), and most games took almost, if not over 40 minutes. I know that the purpose of this deck is to stall, but is that normal? are there any rules of thumb you would recommend to streamline my turns? I am very new to turbofog but when it works, it seems like great fun.
I tried a couple games with 4 erasure's sided in and while it was capable of crushing victories, it also sputtered out of gas much more. I see that the card isn't great. I have also picked up a Tamiyo since my last round of testing,. Does she greatly speed up the game even as a one-of?
I went 2 and 2 with this. I was doubting Otherworld atlas and swapped them out at the last second. Might have been a mistake, erasure makes it possible to have INSANE board states (one time i had 3 rites and 3 erasures out, it was pretty nuts and essentially an auto win).
I dont think erasure's are bad, but if you're running them instead of Otherworld's or Rites, then you definitely need a card draw spell, to keep your fogs and sweeps and land drops up.
Blunt the assault is kinda clunky, and generally didn't like drawing it and it never gained me more than 3 life. I'd rather take the chance and have moonmist main board, it's 2 mana cheaper and the only wolves I've seen are either Garruk Relentless tokens, or Hunt masters. Both of those things also seem pretty easy to deal with.
Changes for next time--
-3 Erasure
-3 negate
-3 blunt the assault
-2 increasing confusion
Personally, I tried Jace's Erasure and was unimpressed. If you're in a position where you're milling 2-3 cards a turn, you're in the late game anyway and probably already had the game in the bag, early game it doesn't keep you alive, or have any impact on the gamestate.
I agree. My main problem was getting my rites blown up with O-ring and not surviving to get my Beast winthin or another engine. I also just had some plain old bad luck with mana floods and screws.
I do like the fact that once I am drawing 3 or more cards per turn, the game is over. every time.
I agree. My main problem was getting my rites blown up with O-ring and not surviving to get my Beast winthin or another engine. I also just had some plain old bad luck with mana floods and screws.
I do like the fact that once I am drawing 3 or more cards per turn, the game is over. every time.
Then play Mind Unbound. Every time it sticks, I've won (still). I'm removing the 1 Atlas for the 2nd MU I played before AVR.
Then play Mind Unbound. Every time it sticks, I've won (still). I'm removing the 1 Atlas for the 2nd MU I played before AVR.
I agree. I think i will put it back in, but the atlas has saved me many times with an EOT draw and upkeep draw so it has a special place in my heart.
I let my friend talk me out of mind unbound because it is so high costed but You are correct, when it sticks I win every time as well. But getting it to stick while still being able to fog is tough when your other engines have been disabled and you only have the crappy fogs available.
I may sub out the 2 blunts for 2 more clinging mists just because when you are sputtering, 1 mana can be all the difference.
The main reason for my poor performance at my tourney though was just plain old bad luck, screws and floods. I'm not giving up on creatureless turbofog yet though!
After much testing, I feel that Rites of Flourishing wasn't as good for me as it was for my opponents. Lots of decks in the current meta are aggro, looking to kill you on Turn 4-5. Rites doesn't give me the leeway needed to avoid these kills unless I'm running the perfect hand, which allowed me to drop a Rites on turn 3, followed by a Green source and a Fog available next turn.
Rites also gave control the fuel they needed to provide an endless stream of counters + Snapcasters to shut down my attempts to drop a Jace. It gave RDW/Burn the fuel they needed to deal those last 10 points of damage. The only matchups where Rites helped me were matchups that the deck is already well equipped to win.
Onto the discussion. Before TheChosen1 pipes in telling you how bad this deck is, put it together with proxies or online before you put it down. Give it a few test runs before saying how much it sucks, or that there are no card draw engines available.
The synergies work great in this deck. I almost never find myself at a loss for how to answer my opponents. Primeval Titan and Rampant Growth thin out the deck, to make draws more effective. Titan also serves the function of letting me find the key lands to make the deck more effective. Think Twice seems like an obvious inclusion when we consider how Devastion Tide can be an even better Fog. I can shoot for that DT 8 times via Think Twice and Flashback, and with Titans and Growths thinning the lands out of the deck, I actually have been able to pull this off occasionally.
Speaking of Devastation Tide, I don't necessarily need to use it for it's Miracle cost. Most of the time, I actually don't at all. This is where Alchemist's Refuge comes into play. I've included this as a 2-of, to possibly dodge the land hate that can sometimes happen(via Ghost Quarter or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage for example). When I activate Alchemist's Refuge, Devastation Tide is a Fog and a Temporal Mastery wrapped into one shell. Opponents will have to recast their planeswalkers, creatures, Enchantments, Artifacts, and everything else and probably won't have enough mana to do it all in one turn even. This also answers the problem of an Oblivion Ring on Jace.
The final synergy for Devastion Tide is allowing multiple uses of Jace's 0 ability, which often means game. This has come into play on a few occasions, where I didn't have a Fog, nor an Alchemist's Refuge out. The opponent had 18 cards in the deck, milling once wouldn't win me the game, but 20 cards down in 1 turn ended it.
Abundant Growth is a cantrip that partially fixes the mana situation. The synergy with Devastation Tide is obvious, giving me more cards to deal with the threats, including Fogs, and maybe even another Devastation Tide to even further delay the game so that my finishers can mill them out.
Beast Within works amazingly well as an answer to all things annoying. Oblivion Ring, Swords that might cause issues(FaF), Liliana of the Veil, Hellrider etc. Beast is simply a catch-all to everything we didn't already think of.
Black Sun's Zenith is another card that has great synergy with Alchemist's Refuge. Zenith's use should be fairly obvious here. It can even serve to kill off ramping mana dorks on turn 3, which can often provide you with enough time to stabilize and draw into more Fogs to save yourself.
Blunt the Assault is used to regain lost life, thus putting yourself out of burn range.
The win conditions are also obvious. Jace, Memory Adept has dual functionality though, in that his +1 can draw you cards. I spent 1 game delaying so much having to use Jace's +1, that I was able to fire off his ultimate to kill my opponent.
I include 3 Nephalia's Drownyard as an alternate win-con because of the Titan and Rampant Growth ramp. I can often activate all 3 Drownyards along with Fogging or Blunt the Assault as early as Turn 7-9.
The sideboard is still a work in progress, but it definitely should focus on fighting control decks and burn decks.
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After much testing, I feel that Rites of Flourishing wasn't as good for me as it was for my opponents. Lots of decks in the current meta are aggro, looking to kill you on Turn 4-5. Rites doesn't give me the leeway needed to avoid these kills unless I'm running the perfect hand, which allowed me to drop a Rites on turn 3, followed by a Green source and a Fog available next turn.
Rites also gave control the fuel they needed to provide an endless stream of counters + Snapcasters to shut down my attempts to drop a Jace. It gave RDW/Burn the fuel they needed to deal those last 10 points of damage. The only matchups where Rites helped me were matchups that the deck is already well equipped to win.
Onto the discussion. Before TheChosen1 pipes in telling you how bad this deck is, put it together with proxies or online before you put it down. Give it a few test runs before saying how much it sucks, or that there are no card draw engines available.
The synergies work great in this deck. I almost never find myself at a loss for how to answer my opponents. Primeval Titan and Rampant Growth thin out the deck, to make draws more effective. Titan also serves the function of letting me find the key lands to make the deck more effective. Think Twice seems like an obvious inclusion when we consider how Devastion Tide can be an even better Fog. I can shoot for that DT 8 times via Think Twice and Flashback, and with Titans and Growths thinning the lands out of the deck, I actually have been able to pull this off occasionally.
Speaking of Devastation Tide, I don't necessarily need to use it for it's Miracle cost. Most of the time, I actually don't at all. This is where Alchemist's Refuge comes into play. I've included this as a 2-of, to possibly dodge the land hate that can sometimes happen(via Ghost Quarter or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage for example). When I activate Alchemist's Refuge, Devastation Tide is a Fog and a Temporal Mastery wrapped into one shell. Opponents will have to recast their planeswalkers, creatures, Enchantments, Artifacts, and everything else and probably won't have enough mana to do it all in one turn even. This also answers the problem of an Oblivion Ring on Jace.
The final synergy for Devastion Tide is allowing multiple uses of Jace's 0 ability, which often means game. This has come into play on a few occasions, where I didn't have a Fog, nor an Alchemist's Refuge out. The opponent had 18 cards in the deck, milling once wouldn't win me the game, but 20 cards down in 1 turn ended it.
Abundant Growth is a cantrip that partially fixes the mana situation. The synergy with Devastation Tide is obvious, giving me more cards to deal with the threats, including Fogs, and maybe even another Devastation Tide to even further delay the game so that my finishers can mill them out.
Beast Within works amazingly well as an answer to all things annoying. Oblivion Ring, Swords that might cause issues(FaF), Liliana of the Veil, Hellrider etc. Beast is simply a catch-all to everything we didn't already think of.
Black Sun's Zenith is another card that has great synergy with Alchemist's Refuge. Zenith's use should be fairly obvious here. It can even serve to kill off ramping mana dorks on turn 3, which can often provide you with enough time to stabilize and draw into more Fogs to save yourself.
Blunt the Assault is used to regain lost life, thus putting yourself out of burn range.
The win conditions are also obvious. Jace, Memory Adept has dual functionality though, in that his +1 can draw you cards. I spent 1 game delaying so much having to use Jace's +1, that I was able to fire off his ultimate to kill my opponent.
I include 3 Nephalia's Drownyard as an alternate win-con because of the Titan and Rampant Growth ramp. I can often activate all 3 Drownyards along with Fogging or Blunt the Assault as early as Turn 7-9.
The sideboard is still a work in progress, but it definitely should focus on fighting control decks and burn decks.
Your having trouble with aggro match-ups? Timely Reinforcements and Feeling of Dread are your friends. Also how does Rites help them more than you? In my games once my engines are up its gg
Your having trouble with aggro match-ups? Timely Reinforcements and Feeling of Dread are your friends. Also how does Rites help them more than you? In my games once my engines are up its gg
I don't have trouble with aggro at all, which I feel was the only matchup where Rites REALLY helped. Every other matchup gave my opponents more fuel to fight.
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The problem here is that if you're not playing any turbo, you're by definition not playing a turbo-fog deck.
The larger problem is that his "draw engine" is just two mediocre cards which interact on a functional, but underwhelming manner (and don't do nearly enough on their own), which results in him caving to the first halfway relevant threat. His lack of answers and fog leave him struggling when he isn't opening with the BEST HAND EVAR.
The lack of maindeck life gain and general resilience to ANYTHING AT ALL given the lack of permanent removal and Negate (the second best card in the deck) doesn't help, either.
The larger problem is that his "draw engine" is just two mediocre cards which interact on a functional, but underwhelming manner (and don't do nearly enough on their own), which results in him caving to the first halfway relevant threat. His lack of answers and fog leave him struggling when he isn't opening with the BEST HAND EVAR.
The lack of maindeck life gain and general resilience to ANYTHING AT ALL given the lack of permanent removal and Negate (the second best card in the deck) doesn't help, either.
Just saying.
Negates are only for the control matchup. And this "BEST HAND EVAR" seems to happen pretty often apparently, cause this deck doesn't often lose. The deck puts higher value in the cards it does draw by thinning out the lands, and delays enough with Fogs, Black Sun's, and Tides to win with Jace/Nephalia. I once again reiterate, give it a freaking shot. You're not the defining authority on all things Fog.
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Negates are only for the control matchup. And this "BEST HAND EVAR" seems to happen pretty often apparently, cause this deck doesn't often lose. The deck puts higher value in the cards it does draw by thinning out the lands, and delays enough with Fogs, Black Sun's, and Tides to win with Jace/Nephalia. I once again reiterate, give it a freaking shot. You're not the defining authority on all things Fog.
Negate counters Oblivion Ring, which is your primary issue in game 1. It also counters Shrine of Burning Rage (another card you rarely answer as efficiently as you'd like to in game 1), Birthing Pod (which presents several, serious issues), and broken things like Liquimetal Coating and Devastation Tide that can randomly wreck you. It catches any problem the rest of your maindeck cannot handle.
Nephalia Drownyard and Jace, Memory Adept are both "win conditions" that require turn investment more than T=1. Increasing Confusion provides early-game synergy (unlike either of those), an inevitable threat that applies pressure at a far advanced clip when compared to Drownyard, and is actually capable of 1-shot wins which makes it far less sketchy when trying to sneak it through in the control matchup.
I'm not the overbearing, all-knowing, omnipotent authority on the deck. I don't pretend to be. I just know the deck, and would like to see people succeed to the extent that I am passing my experience on. You're not playingthe deck, so for all I'm concerned, you can stop referring to anything I post, and I'll do the same.
Start a new thread for your off-shoot and enjoy two pages of bumping followed by a silent death on page 47. That's what everyone else does.
-1 Something, +1 Venser. If you're going to go with the Stonehorn idea, really go for it. Also, Moonmist is desperately begging to be Clinging Mists, and Frost Breath is begging to be the Day of Judgment your mana base already supports.
I would consider Feeling of Dread an outright upgrade over Frost Breath, as you can disperse the two turns of tapping as you'd like. You can also catch random Avengers and other newer, higher priority threats the next turn, instead of being stuck on that Geist or whatever. I would play it, but only if I needed Feeling of Dread 5 or 6. The other little touch that puts it over the top is its interaction with Sunblast Angel. For 2 mana early, you spare 5-6-7 damage, and at that point you can either repeat it as needed, or tap down any annoying mana dorks or threats that don't need to swing before planting a Sunblast for added punching power. Having that flexibility just does a lot more than Frost Breath will in the long run.
Amazing thread. Im actually a dedicated red mage, but I am really impressed with this deck - if you don't mind, I might even like to try it!
I don't have any experience with this sort of deck, but if you will indulge me, my understanding is that the plan is to:
- set down a draw engine
- force them to commit heavily to the board to try and push damage through.
- use sweepers
- stall with fog effects until they mill
I dont want to make the plan seem overly simple, I just want to grasp the order of events.
Im going to need to work out the numbers in the mana base. Im not sold on curse of the bloody tome, but it doesnt feel like rites of flourishing by itself is enough (again, no experience).
I have some lifegain. I think visions of beyond could become some mix of ponder and abundant growth. Mana fixing could be important in this deck, and its one less card that recycles with the elixir (which means I will draw more action). Ponder with evolving wilds is quite decent.
Terminus is a bit anti-synergistic, but I want the extra unconditional sweeper.
Any thought on Gideon? He is like an extra fog, but can generate a little CA.
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4 Ponder
4 fog
2 snapcaster mage
3 negate
4 rites of florishing
2 clinging mists
2 beast within
4 day of judgment
4 stonehorn dignitary
3 amass the component/ otherwordly atlass
1 venser, the sojourner
3 jace, memory adept
It's not as much a turbo fog as a "keep jace 3/4 turns on the board and win", where the fog shines. Jace serves double duty as both a kill and a turbo when you can't afford to mill them. Unfortunatly, rites and atlas aren't reliable enough to keep the engine runing. A single O-ring on a rite can lead the deck to loose pretty badly (the beast are a catch all, to nuke PW or enchantments).
I'm only running one venser because it has absolutly no interaction with the deck. Yet sometimes, you win on the spot thanks to a dignitary, so it worth at least one slot.
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Forest
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Island
4 Plains
4 Fog
2 Blunt the Assault
4 Clinging Mists
2 Timely Reinforcements
==Wraths==
3 Terminus
3 Day of Judgment
4 Rites of Flourishing
1 Otherworld Atlas
==Super Turbo==
4 Temporal Mastery
==Wincon/random answers==
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Beast Within
2 Elixir of Immortality
Like this deck seems like it's not viable at any level of competition, am I missing something?
@the guy running temporal mastery, 7 mana time warp is not good. and how is Tamiyo a win condition?
redirect doesn't really take care of O-ring
Negate is just way better overall, it counters PWs (mostly karn and liliana), spell that do not target (i needed to counter a DoJ once, so that my opponent wouldn't be able to kill his own red titan while he was venser-locked)
On a more general note, negate is 1U and redirect UU, redirecting burn is useless unless it is lethal in the first place (which it should never be if you opponent play well).
Well negate is almost always the better spell to have in your hand
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8424929&postcount=497
Once you epic here; You can beast within there whole board and just watch them get decked while you are fogging.
Mono Red (duh)
Tokens (any variation, but BWG is what I've played the most of)
RG Aggro (yeah...I hate Strangleroot Giest)
Out of these three decks, I have to be prepared for RG Aggro the most because it is the most popular. So question: are there any silver bullets against that deck?
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You're missing a lot. In the right meta, this deck is borderline unbeatable. It has positive matchups against U/B Control, both U/R and U/W Delver, an all-but bye against Wolf Run Variants as long as you go in expecting Devil's Play as well as B/W Tokens (who can't answer you whatsoever), manages Zombies, wrecks new upstarts like Miracle spam and W/R Aggro, and has a coin flip game 1 against RDW (with a much-improved matchup from there). RG Aggro has a lot of game here now that you're looking at Shrine as the 2-drop alternating with Geist, but Hellrider is your main problem otherwise.
W/U Humans is generally positive, but I just came across WUR Humans (American Man) that essentially played the most absurdly potent humans in the format and topped it off with Burn at the Stake and Vapor Snag for tempo. That was messy the first time I saw it.
The only rough deck all-around is Birthing Pod. Their Acidic Slime spam, combined with a toolbox to answer anything irritating is just too much unless you answer Pod early. Slime is worse for us here, as they just keep recycling it every time we have to Elixir out (which is often when staring down Geist).
Temporal Mastery in this deck isn't that far-fetched. If it didn't exile itself, I'd play four. Seven mana is a turn 5 play, here, and you always hit turn 5.
Tamiyo can win off of anything. Beast Within spam blows up their board, Feeling of Dread is equivalent to a less fragile Stonehorn lock, endless lifegain limited only by your mana, etc. It's generally a win condition in the way Shadowmage Infiltrator has been over time. Card advantage kills.
2 Beast Within
2 Blunt the Assault
2 Clinging Mists
4 Day of Judgment
3 Elixir of Immortality
4 Fog
2 Increasing Confusion
1 Mind Unbound
3 Negate
4 Ponder
1 Otherworld Atlas
4 Rites of Flourishing
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Terminus
3 Timely Reinforcements
5 Forest
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Hinterland Harbor
6 Island
5 Plains
3 Sunpetal Grove
1 Beast Within
3 Celestial Purge
4 Feeling of Dread
1 Mindslaver
1 Negate
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
Liking the maindeck, futzing with the sideboard constantly.
I tried a couple games with 4 erasure's sided in and while it was capable of crushing victories, it also sputtered out of gas much more. I see that the card isn't great. I have also picked up a Tamiyo since my last round of testing,. Does she greatly speed up the game even as a one-of?
3 jace's erasure
2 increasing confusion
4 fog
4 clinging mists
3 blunt the assault
3 beast within
3 timely reinforcements
3 elixir of immortality
3 negate
1 Devastation Tide
1 beast within
1 Negate
1 Timely reinforcements
2 revoke exixtence
3 stony silence
3 celestial purge
3 feeling of dread
I went 2 and 2 with this. I was doubting Otherworld atlas and swapped them out at the last second. Might have been a mistake, erasure makes it possible to have INSANE board states (one time i had 3 rites and 3 erasures out, it was pretty nuts and essentially an auto win).
I dont think erasure's are bad, but if you're running them instead of Otherworld's or Rites, then you definitely need a card draw spell, to keep your fogs and sweeps and land drops up.
Blunt the assault is kinda clunky, and generally didn't like drawing it and it never gained me more than 3 life. I'd rather take the chance and have moonmist main board, it's 2 mana cheaper and the only wolves I've seen are either Garruk Relentless tokens, or Hunt masters. Both of those things also seem pretty easy to deal with.
Changes for next time--
-3 Erasure
-3 negate
-3 blunt the assault
-2 increasing confusion
+4 moonmist
+4 ponder
+2 otherworld atlas
+1 Terminus
I agree. My main problem was getting my rites blown up with O-ring and not surviving to get my Beast winthin or another engine. I also just had some plain old bad luck with mana floods and screws.
I do like the fact that once I am drawing 3 or more cards per turn, the game is over. every time.
Then play Mind Unbound. Every time it sticks, I've won (still). I'm removing the 1 Atlas for the 2nd MU I played before AVR.
I agree. I think i will put it back in, but the atlas has saved me many times with an EOT draw and upkeep draw so it has a special place in my heart.
I let my friend talk me out of mind unbound because it is so high costed but You are correct, when it sticks I win every time as well. But getting it to stick while still being able to fog is tough when your other engines have been disabled and you only have the crappy fogs available.
I may sub out the 2 blunts for 2 more clinging mists just because when you are sputtering, 1 mana can be all the difference.
The main reason for my poor performance at my tourney though was just plain old bad luck, screws and floods. I'm not giving up on creatureless turbofog yet though!
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Beast Within
4 Fog
4 Blunt the Assault
4 Think Twice
2 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Rampant Growth
4 Devastation Tide
2 Alchemist's Refuge
2 Drowned Catacomb
9 Forest
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Island
3 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Swamp
2 Elixir of Immortality
4 Negate
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Divine Deflection
After much testing, I feel that Rites of Flourishing wasn't as good for me as it was for my opponents. Lots of decks in the current meta are aggro, looking to kill you on Turn 4-5. Rites doesn't give me the leeway needed to avoid these kills unless I'm running the perfect hand, which allowed me to drop a Rites on turn 3, followed by a Green source and a Fog available next turn.
Rites also gave control the fuel they needed to provide an endless stream of counters + Snapcasters to shut down my attempts to drop a Jace. It gave RDW/Burn the fuel they needed to deal those last 10 points of damage. The only matchups where Rites helped me were matchups that the deck is already well equipped to win.
Onto the discussion. Before TheChosen1 pipes in telling you how bad this deck is, put it together with proxies or online before you put it down. Give it a few test runs before saying how much it sucks, or that there are no card draw engines available.
The synergies work great in this deck. I almost never find myself at a loss for how to answer my opponents. Primeval Titan and Rampant Growth thin out the deck, to make draws more effective. Titan also serves the function of letting me find the key lands to make the deck more effective. Think Twice seems like an obvious inclusion when we consider how Devastion Tide can be an even better Fog. I can shoot for that DT 8 times via Think Twice and Flashback, and with Titans and Growths thinning the lands out of the deck, I actually have been able to pull this off occasionally.
Speaking of Devastation Tide, I don't necessarily need to use it for it's Miracle cost. Most of the time, I actually don't at all. This is where Alchemist's Refuge comes into play. I've included this as a 2-of, to possibly dodge the land hate that can sometimes happen(via Ghost Quarter or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage for example). When I activate Alchemist's Refuge, Devastation Tide is a Fog and a Temporal Mastery wrapped into one shell. Opponents will have to recast their planeswalkers, creatures, Enchantments, Artifacts, and everything else and probably won't have enough mana to do it all in one turn even. This also answers the problem of an Oblivion Ring on Jace.
The final synergy for Devastion Tide is allowing multiple uses of Jace's 0 ability, which often means game. This has come into play on a few occasions, where I didn't have a Fog, nor an Alchemist's Refuge out. The opponent had 18 cards in the deck, milling once wouldn't win me the game, but 20 cards down in 1 turn ended it.
Abundant Growth is a cantrip that partially fixes the mana situation. The synergy with Devastation Tide is obvious, giving me more cards to deal with the threats, including Fogs, and maybe even another Devastation Tide to even further delay the game so that my finishers can mill them out.
Beast Within works amazingly well as an answer to all things annoying. Oblivion Ring, Swords that might cause issues(FaF), Liliana of the Veil, Hellrider etc. Beast is simply a catch-all to everything we didn't already think of.
Black Sun's Zenith is another card that has great synergy with Alchemist's Refuge. Zenith's use should be fairly obvious here. It can even serve to kill off ramping mana dorks on turn 3, which can often provide you with enough time to stabilize and draw into more Fogs to save yourself.
Blunt the Assault is used to regain lost life, thus putting yourself out of burn range.
The win conditions are also obvious. Jace, Memory Adept has dual functionality though, in that his +1 can draw you cards. I spent 1 game delaying so much having to use Jace's +1, that I was able to fire off his ultimate to kill my opponent.
I include 3 Nephalia's Drownyard as an alternate win-con because of the Titan and Rampant Growth ramp. I can often activate all 3 Drownyards along with Fogging or Blunt the Assault as early as Turn 7-9.
The sideboard is still a work in progress, but it definitely should focus on fighting control decks and burn decks.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Your having trouble with aggro match-ups? Timely Reinforcements and Feeling of Dread are your friends. Also how does Rites help them more than you? In my games once my engines are up its gg
I don't have trouble with aggro at all, which I feel was the only matchup where Rites REALLY helped. Every other matchup gave my opponents more fuel to fight.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
The larger problem is that his "draw engine" is just two mediocre cards which interact on a functional, but underwhelming manner (and don't do nearly enough on their own), which results in him caving to the first halfway relevant threat. His lack of answers and fog leave him struggling when he isn't opening with the BEST HAND EVAR.
The lack of maindeck life gain and general resilience to ANYTHING AT ALL given the lack of permanent removal and Negate (the second best card in the deck) doesn't help, either.
Just saying.
Negates are only for the control matchup. And this "BEST HAND EVAR" seems to happen pretty often apparently, cause this deck doesn't often lose. The deck puts higher value in the cards it does draw by thinning out the lands, and delays enough with Fogs, Black Sun's, and Tides to win with Jace/Nephalia. I once again reiterate, give it a freaking shot. You're not the defining authority on all things Fog.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Negate counters Oblivion Ring, which is your primary issue in game 1. It also counters Shrine of Burning Rage (another card you rarely answer as efficiently as you'd like to in game 1), Birthing Pod (which presents several, serious issues), and broken things like Liquimetal Coating and Devastation Tide that can randomly wreck you. It catches any problem the rest of your maindeck cannot handle.
Nephalia Drownyard and Jace, Memory Adept are both "win conditions" that require turn investment more than T=1. Increasing Confusion provides early-game synergy (unlike either of those), an inevitable threat that applies pressure at a far advanced clip when compared to Drownyard, and is actually capable of 1-shot wins which makes it far less sketchy when trying to sneak it through in the control matchup.
I'm not the overbearing, all-knowing, omnipotent authority on the deck. I don't pretend to be. I just know the deck, and would like to see people succeed to the extent that I am passing my experience on. You're not playing the deck, so for all I'm concerned, you can stop referring to anything I post, and I'll do the same.
Start a new thread for your off-shoot and enjoy two pages of bumping followed by a silent death on page 47. That's what everyone else does.
4 Stonehorn Dignitary
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Support
4 Rites of Flourishing
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Cloudshift
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Fog
3 Blunt the Assault
3 Frost Breath
4 Moonmist
Land
8 Forest
4 Hinterland Harbor
5 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Plains
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Negate
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Terminus
1 Elixer of Immortality
2 Timely Reinforcements
-1 Something, +1 Venser. If you're going to go with the Stonehorn idea, really go for it. Also, Moonmist is desperately begging to be Clinging Mists, and Frost Breath is begging to be the Day of Judgment your mana base already supports.
I would consider Feeling of Dread an outright upgrade over Frost Breath, as you can disperse the two turns of tapping as you'd like. You can also catch random Avengers and other newer, higher priority threats the next turn, instead of being stuck on that Geist or whatever. I would play it, but only if I needed Feeling of Dread 5 or 6. The other little touch that puts it over the top is its interaction with Sunblast Angel. For 2 mana early, you spare 5-6-7 damage, and at that point you can either repeat it as needed, or tap down any annoying mana dorks or threats that don't need to swing before planting a Sunblast for added punching power. Having that flexibility just does a lot more than Frost Breath will in the long run.
CROSSING MY FINGERS FOR MOMENT'S PEACE!
Amazing thread. Im actually a dedicated red mage, but I am really impressed with this deck - if you don't mind, I might even like to try it!
I don't have any experience with this sort of deck, but if you will indulge me, my understanding is that the plan is to:
- set down a draw engine
- force them to commit heavily to the board to try and push damage through.
- use sweepers
- stall with fog effects until they mill
I dont want to make the plan seem overly simple, I just want to grasp the order of events.
Im thinking about something along these lines:
4 feeling of dread
4 fog
4 day of judgment
1 Terminus
4 negate
2 increasing confusion
2 Elixir of Immortality
4 rites of flourishing
4 curse of the bloody tome
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Im going to need to work out the numbers in the mana base. Im not sold on curse of the bloody tome, but it doesnt feel like rites of flourishing by itself is enough (again, no experience).
I have some lifegain. I think visions of beyond could become some mix of ponder and abundant growth. Mana fixing could be important in this deck, and its one less card that recycles with the elixir (which means I will draw more action). Ponder with evolving wilds is quite decent.
Terminus is a bit anti-synergistic, but I want the extra unconditional sweeper.
Any thought on Gideon? He is like an extra fog, but can generate a little CA.
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