Wayfaring Temple: With no way to push through with him except charm, he really is a poor choice for the 3-drop spot with the amount of options available. He's stuck on the ground, he costs 3, he doesn't come with trample, he only makes tokens when he connects AND if you have a token, his p/t is based upon boardstate, etc. I just can't justify his spot whatsoever.
Growing Ranks: This card is flat out terrible. I cannot understand how the same people who say Parallel Lives is a bad choice think this is a better choice. No immediate impact on the board, most of the time will provide you with a 1/1 flier/human or a 2/2 knight at your upkeep, at the cost of 4 and not becoming active for a turn, if you get wiped after resolving ranks it doesn't do anything, the card really needs to have more of an impact to be playable. I would play Sorin over this for days.
Trostani: I think he is very lackluster. WWGG. Almost anything we play enters as a 1/1, gaining 1-2 life a turn isn't that relevant, especially since were paying WWGG for this. The populate ability is terribad. I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to pay 1WG and tap a blocker so I could "populate." Pay 3 for a spirit? Pay 3 for a human? Pay 3 for a knight? No thank you. He just doesn't do anything we really want to be doing, especially mid/late game. The only thing I can see him doing is netting you 2-3 points of life and possibly block a creature, until he is either removed or your opponent just plays something bigger/better/more potent and just goes over the top of you. Somebody explain to me why you are trying to use him other then the fact that he's the Selensya Mythic. He just doesn't seem good in this deck at all.
Collective Blessing: I am holding my opinion on this card off until I have time to test it. If mana-dorks could allow this to get played consistently on t4/5 it's almost guaranteed alpha strike if we have a decent boardstate with a few spirits and if not dealt with makes every token ATLEAST a 4/4.
All the decks in this thread are lacking MB answers to opponents threats outside of charm (which isn't guaranteed to hit). It needs to be mentioned that almost every deck will try trampling us, going bigger then us, or aggro faster then us. We NEED answers to threats MB or get forced onto defense and wasting our tokens to chump block, which are not games we generally end up winning. The deck cannot ignore our opponents game plan, we cannot win fast enough and we can't go over the top.
Also, lists need to be streamlined, playing with cards like ranks and wayfaring temple is just so sub-optimal and brings down the list as a whole making the deck slower, clunkier, and overall less potent. I do think Junk Tokens has a chance (maybe not as much as Jund/BG Zombies or U/W Control), but the decklist needs to be extremely tight with every card being relevant and impactful.
Wayfaring Temple: With no way to push through with him except charm, he really is a poor choice for the 3-drop spot with the amount of options available. He's stuck on the ground, he costs 3, he doesn't come with trample, he only makes tokens when he connects AND if you have a token, his p/t is based upon boardstate, etc. I just can't justify his spot whatsoever.
Growing Ranks: This card is flat out terrible. I cannot understand how the same people who say Parallel Lives is a bad choice think this is a better choice. No immediate impact on the board, most of the time will provide you with a 1/1 flier/human or a 2/2 knight at your upkeep, at the cost of 4 and not becoming active for a turn, if you get wiped it doesn't do anything, the card really needs to have more of an impact. I would play Sorin over this for days.
Trostani: I think he is very lackluster. WWGG. Almost anything we play enters as a 1/1, gaining 1-2 life a turn isn't that relevant, especially since were paying WWGG for this. The populate ability is terribad. I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to pay 1WG and tap a blocker so I could "populate." Pay 3 for a spirit? Pay 3 for a human? Pay 3 for a knight? No thank you. He just doesn't do anything we really want to be doing, especially mid/late game. The only thing I can see him doing is netting you 2-3 points of life and possibly block a creature, until he is either removed or your opponent just plays something bigger/better/more potent and just goes over the top of you. Somebody explain to me why you are trying to use him other then the fact that he's the Selensya Mythic. He just doesn't seem good in this deck at all.
Collective Blessing: I am holding my opinion on this card off until I have time to test it. If mana-dorks could allow this to get played consistently on t4/5 it's almost guaranteed alpha strike if we have a decent boardstate with a few spirits and if not dealt with makes every token ATLEAST a 4/4.
All the decks in this thread are lacking MB answers to opponents threats outside of charm (which isn't guaranteed to hit). It needs to be mentioned that almost every deck will try trampling us, going bigger then us, or aggro faster then us. We NEED answers to threats MB or get forced onto defense and wasting our tokens to chump block, which are not games we generally end up winning. The deck cannot ignore our opponents game plan, we cannot win fast enough and we can't go over the top.
Also, lists need to be streamlined, playing with cards like ranks and wayfaring temple is just so sub-optimal and brings down the list as a whole making the deck slower, clunkier, and overall less potent. I do think Junk Tokens has a chance (maybe not as much as Jund/BG Zombies or U/W Control), but the decklist needs to be extremely tight with every card being relevant and impactful.
I agree with most of these assessments. I do like Collective Blessing a lot more than I thought I would. Your assessment of Wayfaring Temple was the same as mine, very lackluster. Growing Ranks is pretty damn terrible. I had a hard time judging it on theory, but I tried a few games with it out last night. Every time that I had it I wished it was something else. It won me one game because of the constant populate - but that was because we were both at a boardstall. I never got a chance to play Trostanti in a game, I feel she might be a good SB card. You are right about the MB answers though, I'm trying to think of what we can use (besides ORing) that allows for us to survive. I'm at a loss as to what other MB cards to consider without being able to see the meta (and decklists) in front of me. Who knows, the Selesnya mythic non-guild master might be good. If it's anything like a Wrath of God for non-tokens it will be fantastic, or a wrath that puts tokens onto the board.
I agree with most of these assessments. I do like Collective Blessing a lot more than I thought I would. Your assessment of Wayfaring Temple was the same as mine, very lackluster. Growing Ranks is pretty damn terrible. I had a hard time judging it on theory, but I tried a few games with it out last night. Every time that I had it I wished it was something else. It won me one game because of the constant populate - but that was because we were both at a boardstall. I never got a chance to play Trostanti in a game, I feel she might be a good SB card. You are right about the MB answers though, I'm trying to think of what we can use (besides ORing) that allows for us to survive. I'm at a loss as to what other MB cards to consider without being able to see the meta (and decklists) in front of me. Who knows, the Selesnya mythic non-guild master might be good. If it's anything like a Wrath of God for non-tokens it will be fantastic, or a wrath that puts tokens onto the board.
My two cents, O-ring is going to become bad fast. This standard it was phenomenal for tokens and I ran it as a 4-of MB as the only source of removal. Abrupt Decay makes O-ring look like a joke and I can see any deck with access to those colors running this card, it's that good. I have a list that's still in alpha stage, and I am running into the problem of MB removal as well since I just can't see O-ring being as good as it is currently, but again this is yet to be seen and could still be a decent MB option depending on how the meta takes shape.
What does this leave us with?
As of right now, MB 2-of Vraska to top the curve is AMAZING. After testing a few matches, this girl is the real deal. Never lost a match I landed her. Incredibly versatile, not difficult to ultimate in this shell, and can remove basically anything that could give us problems. Even if dreadbore runs rampant, at her worst she can still 2 for 1 if you pop her -3 upon entering.
Running a 2-of MB Abrupt Decay ourselves, with maybe another SB. Testing this card, 3 is too much MB as the card gets clunky in multiples against some decks and can sit in your hand with no targets.
Tragic Slip. With good spot removal for our colors (gftt) rotating, this card becomes exponentially better. Exact number which should be MB'd is hard to determine without a meta to look at, but I have a hard time thinking of more efficient removal for the deck. Chumping with a token is a small cost to activate morbid in order to take down opponents bombs.
I can't wait to see token generators get spoiled. It will only take one efficient generator to take this deck to the next level to fill the few shaky slots. We'll just have to wait and see with our fingers crossed.
My two cents, O-ring is going to become bad fast. This standard it was phenomenal for tokens and I ran it as a 4-of MB as the only source of removal. Abrupt Decay makes O-ring look like a joke and I can see any deck with access to those colors running this card, it's that good. I have a list that's still in alpha stage, and I am running into the problem of MB removal as well since I just can't see O-ring being as good as it is currently, but again this is yet to be seen and could still be a decent MB option depends on how the meta takes shape.
What does this leave us with?
As of right now, MB 2-of Vraska to top the curve is AMAZING. After testing a few matches, this girl is the real deal. Never lost a match I landed her. Incredibly versatile, not difficult to ultimate in this shell, and can remove basically anything that could give us problems. Even if dreadbore runs rampant, at her worst she can still 2 for 1 if you pop her -3 upon entering.
Running a 2-of MB Abrupt Decay ourselves, with maybe another SB. Testing this card, 3 is too much as the card gets clunky in multiples and can sit in your hand with no targets.
Tragic Slip. With good spot removal for our colors (gftt) rotating, this card becomes exponentially better. Exact number which should be MB'd is hard to determine without a meta to look at, but I have a hard time thinking of more efficient removal for the deck. Chumping with a token is a small cost to activate morbid in order to take down opponents bombs.
I can't wait to see token generators get spoiled. It will only take one efficient generator to take this deck to the next level to fill the few shaky slots. We'll just have to wait and see with our fingers crossed.
I really like Vraska at the top end of the spectrum. Getting a GB shouldn't be that hard, I don't want to run too many B producing mana however. This scares me with Abrupt Decay, because of the restrictive mana cost it makes our mana base more shaky. If birds were reprinted, I'd probably say 100% to abrupt decay - but without them yet, I'm not exactly sure. Tragic Slip is good, but I expect more aggro decks to be popular than singular bomb decks. The benefit to Vraska, ORing and Abrupt Decay is that they are versatile unlike Slip.
I may even consider running Thraben Heretic in my sideboard if GB zombies really becomes scary.
As of right now though, I might replace my 2 copies of either Growing Rank/Trostatni MB with Vraska. Trostani COULD be extremely useful against aggro matchups like Zombies. I very much doubt seeing a zombie deck win if I can keep a Trostani out for long + she survives the 'main removal' of the set (Abrupt, M.Mortars, Bonfire [6 mana bonfire is intense])
Thought I might as well toss my alpha list up here, will be changing as more cards are spoiled. Mana might be terrible, haven't run into issues yet, but I'm still testing. Also still working out exact number of copies for a few cards. The only card I'm on the fence about right now for the list is Rancor. My reasoning behind including it is to help in racing situations to turn spirits/LL vamps sideways for more damage, especially in anthem-less situations. The value generated by the card is undeniable, but I'd like to test it more to see if it really makes the difference.
SB will have more pieces of removal if needed, also will contain Rootbound Defenses. Again, planning on testing Collective Blessing when i get home tonight, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes. Will also see if I run into any mana issues and how they could be fixed.
I'm not sure if im way too late but everyone said this to me and I dumped bant tokens in the SOM-M12-INN standard environment, Now just before rotation Ive gone back to it and im kicking ass due to a deck build around Parallel Lives...
Parallel Lives doesnt effect the board state directly but indirectly give you card advantage. Let me explain that a big more fully.
I play GWu Tokens atm and I forgo the Anthems that BW tokens and other lists use, Infact my current list doesnt even run Intangible Virtue. I win by bodies. So many that they simply cant block. Now I hear you screaming at your computer screen that that means I have to overextend to beat someone, but no. Paralell lives does wonders for this issue. With 1 PL on the battlefield you can quite simply ride 1 Blade Splicer until they deal with the tokens, then play another threat. Wait for them to answer your threat and 2 3/3 FS are no laughing matter to attack into...
Obviously Gavony is a HUUUUUGE card when you play bodies but the pure CA generated by PL is what wins games.
The major loss for this type of deck is Fresh Meat IMO, This is what makes the deck boardwipe proof atm, Rootbound Defences should do this too but to less of an impact. For example last night I was testing Vs a friends Trading Post deck (WB version). This deck is essentially the worst nightmare for a token deck as it run >4 boardwipes in the main and more after sideboarding. The funning part was where he had 2 Wurmcoil Engines and cast DoJ while I had a Blade Splicer and 5 Golems. My creatures die, he gets tokens, I EOT Fresh Meat (2x PL on Board) creating 24 3/3 Beasts, he casts Surgical Extraction and I Fresh Meat again. Untap, Gavony, swing for nearly 200... He go blew out by his own DoJ, how ridiculous!
I've waffled a tad there but Parallel Lives is a card to play cleverly with and helps prevent over extending as each and every token producer makes a significant board presence.
I agree that either GW or GWB will be the best colours to play due to the support from the planeswalkers in those colours and the ability to play with so many amazing cards (in RtR and currently available).
I'm sure we'll all speak soon in the standard Deveolping Competitive forum once rotation has occured.
I'd be interested to see this played, I mean, from all my understanding about Parallel Lives in a standard setting t4 is to important to be throwing down PLives instead of something else. Fresh Meat is fantastic and will be sorely missed, however Rootborn Defense might be fine (especially if it populates something besides a measly 1/1). Also, I don't doubt to see token lists being played for a little bit. Hell, if the generators are in their it may be t1. It is extremely hard to tell where we will be in the meta without the generators... Also, I heard that Gideon will be coming back in Gatecrash... If he does... God help things.
Thought I might as well toss my alpha list up here, will be changing as more cards are spoiled. Mana might be terrible, haven't run into issues yet, but I'm still testing. Also still working out exact number of copies for a few cards.
Again, planning on testing Collective Blessing when i get home tonight, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.
I'm intrigued by the list, seems very familiar to my first list. The problem I had with it was the manabase simply. Garruk Relentless is a really good card in this deck - i'd contemplate going 2/2 Sorin/Garruk. His easy to cast mana makes him a good bet to play whereas the others are risky. Also, as much as I liked Entreat... We simply might not have the support for it, but hell - worth a shot. As someone else mentioned however, we need a two drop token generator. Gather the Townsfolk sucks as a sorcery without human support... if there is one that we can think of that would fantastic. I would kill for a 2 drop 3/3 Centaur!
After last night playtesting I have a few comments to make about my current deck iteration.
Bant (GWu with a focus on Sublime Angel and Sigarda + Rancor):
Good deck that can get out of hand pretty damn quickly. Sublime Angel makes me cry and is a 4/3... Meaning that it can't be hit with Selesnya Charm. But you know what it can be hit by! GARRUK RELENTLESS. OH MY GOD IS THIS CARD GOOD AGAINST THIS DECK. I don't care that I'm trading Garruk for a non-planeswalker. Sublime Angel hits the floor and all those mana dorks become annoying buffers to a scary ass unremovable Siguarda. Although, I didn't have much trouble with this deck. Beat it like 5 matches only losing 1 to a game 2 mulligan to 3 and a third game that I didn't see black mana for 20 turns. Collective Blessing, Garruk Relentless and Removal is FANTASTIC in this matchup.
However my play testing friend decided to pull out another deck... Jund.
Oh god is Jund scary. He played Jund Control and it works, it really really works. There are a lot of threats in this deck to tokens and I feel this will probably be an awful matchup - let me go over them.
Olivia - Oh, hi there 1/1 tokens I'm going to eat you. On a side note, it can be removed with Garruk and Selesnya Charm (after she eats your creatures and comes out ahead)
Tragic Slip/Pillar of Flame - Oh, is that a Mana Dork or a Champion of Llambholt... Nope.
Huntmaster of Doom - Value, value, value. Shock on flip, token and lifegain. Did I mention it's a 4/4... so I can't remove it with either Garruk or Selesnya Charm. Yeah, thanks.
And... the worst card. Vampire Nighthawk - Maybe it's me and I can't deal with this card... but I lost about 3 games to a single Nighthawk that was just chilling on the field. I was afraid to attack into it, it's a 2/3... Meaning you can't trade it with a 2/2 token. Double blocking sucks... and a smart player won't attack into it. The only good thing about this card is that it dies to Garruk and doens't kill him.
Champion of Llambholt might move to my sideboard. It is fantastic in mirror matchups against tokens - but it's 1 life is still relevant in the format. Also, bounce destroys it. It's a good card that has won me matchups, but maybe not MB worthy. Although, I don't see GB zombies running Slip.
Vraska was nice - I do need to add another black mana to support her though. I found a lot of the times I wasn't hitting black mana yesterday. To be honest, I'd be much happier if there was a dork that produced black mana - but that would make GB just to good.
Sublime Angel makes me cry and is a 4/3... Meaning that it can't be hit with Selesnya Charm.
Actually that is wrong. Yes, it can't be hit unless it is attacking, but the second it does you can. Looking at the ruling for other cards that are similar(Intrepid Hero) you look at the power when the spell resolves. So for Sublime Angel its power becomes 5+ no matter what when it attacks, at that point it can be the target of Selesnya Charm.
Actually that is wrong. Yes, it can't be hit unless it is attacking, but the second it does you can. Looking at the ruling for other cards that are similar(Intrepid Hero) you look at the power when the spell resolves. So for Sublime Angel its power becomes 5+ no matter what when it attacks, at that point it can be the target of Selesnya Charm.
I doubt that people are going to swing with their Sublime Angel. At least the person I was playing against would never swing with her. She's too good to lose like that. If you have Dorks and a Sublime Angel on the field - you probably are in a position to just swing with a regular flier or a dork and not risk the trade. If she swings, she's fair game
I doubt that people are going to swing with their Sublime Angel. At least the person I was playing against would never swing with her. She's too good to lose like that. If you have Dorks and a Sublime Angel on the field - you probably are in a position to just swing with a regular flier or a dork and not risk the trade. If she swings, she's fair game
Well, most I've played against do, especially when the board has very few creatures big/bad enough to kill her. But that will probably change with Selesyna Charm.
At the same time there are still ways to deal with her. They just aren't as card advantageous(2 Selesyna Charms or Rancor + Selesyna Charm) or require more general killing capabilities(Murder).
My question is: Why Junk Tokens? Why not Junk Walkers or Junk Value Creatures? You get to play with Liliana, Sorin, Resto Angel, Thragtusk, Lingering Souls, Vraska, Garruk (even though they're both bad), Loxodon Smiter, the new Centaur that was spoiled today, Strangleroot Geist . . . without playing anything too weak to Bonfire or other sweepers.
My question is: Why Junk Tokens? Why not Junk Walkers or Junk Value Creatures? You get to play with Liliana, Sorin, Resto Angel, Thragtusk, Lingering Souls, Vraska, Garruk (even though they're both bad), Loxodon Smiter, the new Centaur that was spoiled today, Strangleroot Geist . . . without playing anything too weak to Bonfire or other sweepers.
These are good questions. I guess it comes down to a desire to see if tokens, and the Selesnya swarm can work for me. If it can't (for example we don't get a better token generator) than Junk Value creatures is going to be next on my list. I don't feel that Junk walkers is strong enough compared to other SuperFriends combo. At least not without Gideon.
I've redone my list a little. I can't figure out my last card yet, but I'll be posted it soon.
Third Iteration:
I really, really want 3 Collective Blessings. I feel that everytime I resolve one I win 9/10 times. Especially off a ramp. However, I'm going to try Slime Molding for a bit... Just because. I don't think it'll be worth it, but it's a nice populate that you can sink your mana into. However, as I keep saying - the two drop instant token generator is stupid needed.
Well, most I've played against do, especially when the board has very few creatures big/bad enough to kill her. But that will probably change with Selesyna Charm.
At the same time there are still ways to deal with her. They just aren't as card advantageous(2 Selesyna Charms or Rancor + Selesyna Charm) or require more general killing capabilities(Murder).
I very much dislike swinging with Sublime for 2 reasons against this deck (I'm said playtesting partner):
1) Midnight Haunting with tokens on board, similarly with rootborn defense
2) The charm
I much prefer sitting back and letting a smiter eat the removal, or Geist which is otherwise very lackluster in this matchup, or my favourite...a Rancored up Sigarda.
I don't think my Bant list was very good, I think it needs a lot of work, but it may just be that tokens is a bad matchup for it. I suppose we really need to see what else comes from the rest of the set but I was really drawn to two decks, Bant and Jund, so I ended up swapping over to give a Jund list a test run...and as Nerubian said...it works.
Basically my gameplan against tokens is to develop a board stall, and similar to modern, you want to put both into top deck mode. It was brilliant because with a Huntmaster and a Nighthawk on the field, his few tokens were useless. And every turn he draw/go, I draw another removal spell..so it gets to the point where I'm sitting with 2x Abrupt Decay and a Tragic Slip in hand, and all I'm doing every turn is swinging with my one wolf token.
I'm not sure how Tokens is supposed to beat it, post-sideboard it gets even worse because (I haven't build a side yet since I wanted to get some games in to see what I like in the main and what I want/need for the side) I will definitely be bringing in sweepers for some of the single target removal, ie: pillars probably go out for bonfire + mortars. I think the key will lie in what further token generators the set brings, and you definitely need a way to deal with Nighthawk. And O-ring/D.Sphere are not them (Abrupt Decay). You are in green so maybe Plummet in the board? It also would take care of Sublime Archangel and a swinging angel token off geist. It also kills flipped Delver, which will still be a thing, and it kills Thundermaw Hellkite (something I'm also considering for either miser's mainboard or sb), granted Hellkite has done it's work against tokens after etb, albeit less so if you have a virtue live.
Further on collective blessing, it was really the difference maker in a few matches vs Bant. The idea with Bant is I'm going bigger than tokens are, but with blessing it just nullifies that advantage completely. The other problem I have is the chumps, I utilize some trample and a lot of flying, but that evasion is not active against the current token deck due to all the spirits. I think the diversification of tokens would actually probably make that matchup stronger for Bant in general gameplan, while of course making the matchup less prone to blowouts from Token's perspective in terms of a D. Sphere wiping your entire board.
One can hope the GW mythic spells does token generation, and I think it probably will...I'm not sure what the other side of the card will be but it's hard to figure out what would not be broken and what would not be underpowered...
Maybe something like XWGG: Put an X/X token into play and I'm not sure of the other effect. I have a feeling that will be the spell previewed tomorrow considering we got the other 2 spells this week. Although it's possible we get Golgari instead, in which case I'll have to hear Nerubian complain about it all weekend. Selesnya guildmage also has yet to be revealed, I'd be shocked if it didn't have a token making ability on it - Golgari guildmage has one..
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
I very much dislike swinging with Sublime for 2 reasons against this deck (I'm said playtesting partner):
1) Midnight Haunting with tokens on board, similarly with rootborn defense
2) The charm
I much prefer sitting back and letting a smiter eat the removal, or Geist which is otherwise very lackluster in this matchup, or my favourite...a Rancored up Sigarda.
I don't think my Bant list was very good, I think it needs a lot of work, but it may just be that tokens is a bad matchup for it. I suppose we really need to see what else comes from the rest of the set but I was really drawn to two decks, Bant and Jund, so I ended up swapping over to give a Jund list a test run...and as Nerubian said...it works.
Basically my gameplan against tokens is to develop a board stall, and similar to modern, you want to put both into top deck mode. It was brilliant because with a Huntmaster and a Nighthawk on the field, his few tokens were useless. And every turn he draw/go, I draw another removal spell..so it gets to the point where I'm sitting with 2x Abrupt Decay and a Tragic Slip in hand, and all I'm doing every turn is swinging with my one wolf token.
I'm not sure how Tokens is supposed to beat it, post-sideboard it gets even worse because (I haven't build a side yet since I wanted to get some games in to see what I like in the main and what I want/need for the side) I will definitely be bringing in sweepers for some of the single target removal, ie: pillars probably go out for bonfire + mortars. I think the key will lie in what further token generators the set brings, and you definitely need a way to deal with Nighthawk. And O-ring/D.Sphere are not them (Abrupt Decay). You are in green so maybe Plummet in the board? It also would take care of Sublime Archangel and a swinging angel token off geist. It also kills flipped Delver, which will still be a thing, and it kills Thundermaw Hellkite (something I'm also considering for either miser's mainboard or sb), granted Hellkite has done it's work against tokens after etb, albeit less so if you have a virtue live.
Further on collective blessing, it was really the difference maker in a few matches vs Bant. The idea with Bant is I'm going bigger than tokens are, but with blessing it just nullifies that advantage completely. The other problem I have is the chumps, I utilize some trample and a lot of flying, but that evasion is not active against the current token deck due to all the spirits. I think the diversification of tokens would actually probably make that matchup stronger for Bant in general gameplan, while of course making the matchup less prone to blowouts from Token's perspective in terms of a D. Sphere wiping your entire board.
One can hope the GW mythic spells does token generation, and I think it probably will...I'm not sure what the other side of the card will be but it's hard to figure out what would not be broken and what would not be underpowered...
Maybe something like XWGG: Put an X/X token into play and I'm not sure of the other effect. I have a feeling that will be the spell previewed tomorrow considering we got the other 2 spells this week. Although it's possible we get Golgari instead, in which case I'll have to hear Nerubian complain about it all weekend. Selesnya guildmage also has yet to be revealed, I'd be shocked if it didn't have a token making ability on it - Golgari guildmage has one..
I still think it'll be X 2/2 Saprolings. We haven't seen any of the former guild's main focus. Of course, I want create X 2/2 Saprolings then put X +1/+1 counters on tokens you control. So brokenly awesome. Either way, to your comment about splitting up the token generator making Bant stronger. I disagree. The reason I'm forced into chump mode so often is because the tokens themselves are so weak. Forcing me on the defensive. If the tokens were stronger (2/2 Knights, 3/3 Centaurs) you'd be forced on the defensive. If you are swinging at me with a Sigarda and I have 2 Knights and a Centaur on the field instead of 4-6 Spirit tokens I'll be much happier to take the damage and race you back. Especially if I drop a collective blessing.
I'm not sure if im way too late but everyone said this to me and I dumped bant tokens in the SOM-M12-INN standard environment, Now just before rotation Ive gone back to it and im kicking ass due to a deck build around Parallel Lives...
Parallel Lives doesnt effect the board state directly but indirectly give you card advantage. Let me explain that a big more fully.
I play GWu Tokens atm and I forgo the Anthems that BW tokens and other lists use, Infact my current list doesnt even run Intangible Virtue. I win by bodies. So many that they simply cant block. Now I hear you screaming at your computer screen that that means I have to overextend to beat someone, but no. Paralell lives does wonders for this issue. With 1 PL on the battlefield you can quite simply ride 1 Blade Splicer until they deal with the tokens, then play another threat. Wait for them to answer your threat and 2 3/3 FS are no laughing matter to attack into...
Obviously Gavony is a HUUUUUGE card when you play bodies but the pure CA generated by PL is what wins games.
The major loss for this type of deck is Fresh Meat IMO, This is what makes the deck boardwipe proof atm, Rootbound Defences should do this too but to less of an impact. For example last night I was testing Vs a friends Trading Post deck (WB version). This deck is essentially the worst nightmare for a token deck as it run >4 boardwipes in the main and more after sideboarding. The funning part was where he had 2 Wurmcoil Engines and cast DoJ while I had a Blade Splicer and 5 Golems. My creatures die, he gets tokens, I EOT Fresh Meat (2x PL on Board) creating 24 3/3 Beasts, he casts Surgical Extraction and I Fresh Meat again. Untap, Gavony, swing for nearly 200... He go blew out by his own DoJ, how ridiculous!
I've waffled a tad there but Parallel Lives is a card to play cleverly with and helps prevent over extending as each and every token producer makes a significant board presence.
I agree that either GW or GWB will be the best colours to play due to the support from the planeswalkers in those colours and the ability to play with so many amazing cards (in RtR and currently available).
I'm sure we'll all speak soon in the standard Deveolping Competitive forum once rotation has occured.
Turn 4 I want something important to happen in my hand. Parallel Lives isn't that card. It's a bit like Hero, in that it comes down, has a big target on it and doesn't have immediate impact. additionally the next turn, you need to play token cards or a PW that produces tokens to take advantage of it. However, on turn 5 I am almost always looking to either activate Gavony or Vault, both of which are almost always superior plays.
I like the card in a goldfish and in EDH, but I don't think it's the right card for this deck due to it's lack of impact. In theory we could cheat it out a little earlier, like turn 3 but then were building a deck around it and I am not sure that is such a smart idea.
How are people liking Rancor in this deck? (For those that are trying it). I do like the combination of Rancor + Selesnya charm exile... Considering you get Rancor back to hand. I also think it'd help get rid of annoying creatures when they land.
It's a more durable version of tokens with early game rush and mid-game instants and combat tricks. You should be leading by turn 3-4 in terms of racing, once you hit turn 4-5, u can sit back on your combat tricks to carry through the day.
It's a more durable version of tokens with early game rush and mid-game instants and combat tricks. You should be leading by turn 3-4 in terms of racing, once you hit turn 4-5, u can sit back on your combat tricks to carry through the day.
I would switch out Midnight Haunting for something that will generate tokens every turn, like Garruk, or Sorin.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Haunt is one of the best token generators in the game. It provides resilience to sweepers, and generates 4 Vigilance in the air with Virtue.
Garruk is great, but provided your deck has the mana, Sorin is probably better. If you have the black you can blow their guys up with kill spells or Abrupt Decay.
Good to know about Rancor. I had a few apts I was unsure about anyways.
So far, without birds you are stretching the mana base really thin trying to run sorin. Sorin is fantastic. I want to be able to run him, but it's hard on the mana incorporating both Selesyna charm and Abrupt Decay followed by Sorin. Maybe its better now with my mana base cause I'm not running Trostani or ranks. If we had birds id argue for more than a black splash.
Haunt is fantastic. However, I dislike gather and precinct captain (same argument as way faring temple... If anything id argue that the captain is worse). Collective Blessing is also a must. Without honour of the pure we don't always get the t2 anthem to make our 1/1s resilient. We need that huge boost of power. Every game it resolves and it is allowed to stay on the board for a few turns. I win.
My decks have really stopped using the populate mechanic which is unfortunate. But, hopefully something else is spoiled. Ranks would have been so good of it populated when it ETB.
I think Rootborn Defence with Gather and Midnight Haunting is huge. You can develop a small board position, and just hold it until they are dead. That was my plan recently, but cards like Trostani kind of ruined it.
I run 3 Rootborn Defense right now MB. Everytime I have it, it is a good card. It is so undercosted it is fantastic. I may even throw a fourth one MB or at least SB. I really like Midnight Haunting, not a huge fan of tapping out for 2 1/1 human tokens on t2. I'd much rather surprise blocker Selesnya charm or throw down a lingering souls. If we get a 2drop instant generator, it's going in my deck. Instant Token generators are just so fantastic...
So, I added in Rancor (2) in the mainboard. So far they've been effective - decent enough at least. As a side note - Slime Molding worked more effectively than I thought it would be. I'd always hold it after my board got wiped and then dump my mana into it. It can get pretty big with Intangible Virtue and Collective Blessing.
Since we still have no generators it's hard to comment on anything. I decided to work on a sideboard after facing some more Jund and Jund Zombies (mostly GB). Jund control gets a little bit easier game 2 once they side out single target removal. More sweepers of course means you need to not over-extend and I put in an extra Rootbond Defense. Also, Blood Artist is pretty nice.
GB Zombies. Fast deck is fast. Blood Artist has to be the most annoying card in this deck, so fantastic. Rancor on a gravecrawler and Loltroll is nice and all, but Blood Artist doesn't let you stabilize. Trading is bad against this deck. I really like Vile Rebirth in the sideboard against this deck however (I usually switch out some Hauntings for it). It allows for you to instant remove their Gravecrawler once it hits the Graveyard from Loltroll or Messenger. Also, you get a pretty sizeable blocker. Trostani is actually a beast in this matchup... 2/5 allows you to block forever while gaining more life. I think I might add more into my sideboard just for this matchup, but I'm testing things out.
Vile Rebirth - Explained Earlier. Good instant removal against Zombies (also good against Jund Control... Turn those dead dorks that they tragic slipped into 2/2 zombies.)
Erase - Rancor is scary. Very scary in this format. I'd rather run this than Ray of Revelation simply because I don't think that there will be that many enchantments to deal with. Also, D-Sphere doesn't allow us to bring back our tokens after a wipe.
Blood Artist - Combat Zombies blood artist with our own, also effective against Jund and protection from sweeps. Easy mana cost so chances are it isn't a dead card. Also, with collective blessing it turns into a 3/4 - which isn't shabby.
Rootbond Defenses - I've only once not wanted this card in my hand... And it was because I had 2 others. Having the fourth in the SB protects us against sweeping.
Tribute to Hunger - I know of no other way to deal with Geist of St Traft with this deck. I miss Metamorph...
Terminus - While not the greatest card to be running with tokens it's a much needed sweep. Also, it hoses Zombies' Blood Artist and Gravecrawler + Scavenge. Also deals with Geist/Enemy Tokens/Sigarda .
Vraska the Unseen - Good card is good against control. Game winning Ultimate with Tokens + Rancor. Effective catch-all -3 removal (Curse of Death's Hold anyone). While I don't like running 2 MB because a lot of the time I find her to be a dead card, it'll be effective in certain matchups.
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - The body, lifegain and populate are all incredibly relevant against certain decks. So far, I'm not a big fan of her Main Deck but I feel that I should be running 2-3 (probably 2) SB.
Odric, Master Tactician - This will be my testing card tonight. 3/4 First strike is incredibly relevant against Zombies. Trades with anything for not too pricy of a mana investment (we run enough W mana sources to make this reliable). Also, his ability may be game changing against certain matchups. I feel that this card will be also good against the Mirror Matchup and dealing with game stalls. However, it might be garbage so I'm testing it
Maybe: Champion of Llambholt
If tokens actually make it, this will be a very good card to deal with the mirror. However, I've explain this in detail earlier in the thread.
Centaur Healer
I was playtesting this last night against Zombies. I don't care what anyone says - this lifegain is relevant. It has given me stability and his 3/3 body is incredibly useful (trades with GC and Direfrag profitably and Geralf isn't as scary). I ran two last night and never once thought it was a dead card... people don't understand how fast Zombies strike. 3/3 is extremely good.
Killing Wave - We need a sweeper :/ Mana is reasonable. I dunno though.
Other Suggestions? I feel that people (and me) are waiting for the Selesnya Mythic and the generators to see... Hard to really craft anything more. My deck is pretty scary in it's current incarnation. If we get what I hope we do, it'll easily be viable t1. If not, Junk Little Boy.dec is going to be good... everyone is excited for Jund, and forgetting how good the Junk cards are for dealing with it.
I'm still working on my deck list and waiting for the rest of the spoilers since this is the deck I hope to run at States, and I hope we get more good GW spells
I'm still working on my deck list and waiting for the rest of the spoilers since this is the deck I hope to run at States, and I hope we get more good GW spells
I forgot to edit that list. This slime moldings should be Rancors. Not sure why that isn't updated :/ I tested Wayfaring already. It's rather lackluster, I poste an analysis of both Champion and Wayfaring on page 2 (I believe). Champion is fantastic, but the one power toughness is still relevant sadly in this format so far. With Jund being so popular you have Tragic slip, pillar, abrupt decay (and loads of other bounce cards - which destroy her sadly). I really like her against the Mirror matchup though.
Growing Ranks... Is deceptive. As is trostani. With the current level of tokens the extra 1/1 on your next upkeep just isn't worth the four drop. Trostani is relevant against zombies though - so she's a potential card against Zombies.
Also, rootborn is fantastic. Indestructible + populate for 3 is actually fantastic. I never once don't want this card in my hand... At least once. There are a ton of sweepers in the format. And even then it's a damn good combat trick for dealing with things. Id test it mainboard if I were you - it's always fantastic whenever I draw it. I've been testing against jund zombies, bant and Jund control.
I've been analyzing what tokens need to be viable with a lot of the posts in this thread (or at least my opinion). It'll really come down to the commons - although my
Current list is extremely consistent and very powerful. I'm really happy with this archetype right now
We got a token version of Watchwolf... FANTASTIC! The question is - what do we take out. Rancor is effective, Garruk can win games on his own. Rootbond Defenses is a fantastic undercosted card. Midnight Haunting's instant speed is great, Selesnya's Charm is versatile. Lingering Souls gives the most amount of bodies considering the cost. I'm testing Sorin mainboard over Vraska (2/2 Garruk, Sorin split). Sorin might come out (considering it stretches the mana base). Or Rancor
My question is: Why Junk Tokens? Why not Junk Walkers or Junk Value Creatures? You get to play with Liliana, Sorin, Resto Angel, Thragtusk, Lingering Souls, Vraska, Garruk (even though they're both bad), Loxodon Smiter, the new Centaur that was spoiled today, Strangleroot Geist . . . without playing anything too weak to Bonfire or other sweepers.
Several reasons. 1, tokens are a very different angle of approach than Junk Walkers. They are usually much more aggressive, and they establish a large board prescence quickly. Walkers is a more control-oriented deck. 2, Intangible Virtue is a card. It alone makes Tokens a viable deck strategy, it is THAT powerful. 3, it can put out just as much power as other decks, and thanks to some new card, it has resilience as well, so....why not? It thrashes several matchups that will still be around post-rotation (Zombies, Humans) and was only ever really a card or two from being a major force this last meta.
Wayfaring Temple: With no way to push through with him except charm, he really is a poor choice for the 3-drop spot with the amount of options available. He's stuck on the ground, he costs 3, he doesn't come with trample, he only makes tokens when he connects AND if you have a token, his p/t is based upon boardstate, etc. I just can't justify his spot whatsoever.
Growing Ranks: This card is flat out terrible. I cannot understand how the same people who say Parallel Lives is a bad choice think this is a better choice. No immediate impact on the board, most of the time will provide you with a 1/1 flier/human or a 2/2 knight at your upkeep, at the cost of 4 and not becoming active for a turn, if you get wiped after resolving ranks it doesn't do anything, the card really needs to have more of an impact to be playable. I would play Sorin over this for days.
Trostani: I think he is very lackluster. WWGG. Almost anything we play enters as a 1/1, gaining 1-2 life a turn isn't that relevant, especially since were paying WWGG for this. The populate ability is terribad. I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to pay 1WG and tap a blocker so I could "populate." Pay 3 for a spirit? Pay 3 for a human? Pay 3 for a knight? No thank you. He just doesn't do anything we really want to be doing, especially mid/late game. The only thing I can see him doing is netting you 2-3 points of life and possibly block a creature, until he is either removed or your opponent just plays something bigger/better/more potent and just goes over the top of you. Somebody explain to me why you are trying to use him other then the fact that he's the Selensya Mythic. He just doesn't seem good in this deck at all.
Collective Blessing: I am holding my opinion on this card off until I have time to test it. If mana-dorks could allow this to get played consistently on t4/5 it's almost guaranteed alpha strike if we have a decent boardstate with a few spirits and if not dealt with makes every token ATLEAST a 4/4.
All the decks in this thread are lacking MB answers to opponents threats outside of charm (which isn't guaranteed to hit). It needs to be mentioned that almost every deck will try trampling us, going bigger then us, or aggro faster then us. We NEED answers to threats MB or get forced onto defense and wasting our tokens to chump block, which are not games we generally end up winning. The deck cannot ignore our opponents game plan, we cannot win fast enough and we can't go over the top.
Also, lists need to be streamlined, playing with cards like ranks and wayfaring temple is just so sub-optimal and brings down the list as a whole making the deck slower, clunkier, and overall less potent. I do think Junk Tokens has a chance (maybe not as much as Jund/BG Zombies or U/W Control), but the decklist needs to be extremely tight with every card being relevant and impactful.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
I agree with most of these assessments. I do like Collective Blessing a lot more than I thought I would. Your assessment of Wayfaring Temple was the same as mine, very lackluster. Growing Ranks is pretty damn terrible. I had a hard time judging it on theory, but I tried a few games with it out last night. Every time that I had it I wished it was something else. It won me one game because of the constant populate - but that was because we were both at a boardstall. I never got a chance to play Trostanti in a game, I feel she might be a good SB card. You are right about the MB answers though, I'm trying to think of what we can use (besides ORing) that allows for us to survive. I'm at a loss as to what other MB cards to consider without being able to see the meta (and decklists) in front of me. Who knows, the Selesnya mythic non-guild master might be good. If it's anything like a Wrath of God for non-tokens it will be fantastic, or a wrath that puts tokens onto the board.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
My two cents, O-ring is going to become bad fast. This standard it was phenomenal for tokens and I ran it as a 4-of MB as the only source of removal. Abrupt Decay makes O-ring look like a joke and I can see any deck with access to those colors running this card, it's that good. I have a list that's still in alpha stage, and I am running into the problem of MB removal as well since I just can't see O-ring being as good as it is currently, but again this is yet to be seen and could still be a decent MB option depending on how the meta takes shape.
What does this leave us with?
As of right now, MB 2-of Vraska to top the curve is AMAZING. After testing a few matches, this girl is the real deal. Never lost a match I landed her. Incredibly versatile, not difficult to ultimate in this shell, and can remove basically anything that could give us problems. Even if dreadbore runs rampant, at her worst she can still 2 for 1 if you pop her -3 upon entering.
Running a 2-of MB Abrupt Decay ourselves, with maybe another SB. Testing this card, 3 is too much MB as the card gets clunky in multiples against some decks and can sit in your hand with no targets.
Tragic Slip. With good spot removal for our colors (gftt) rotating, this card becomes exponentially better. Exact number which should be MB'd is hard to determine without a meta to look at, but I have a hard time thinking of more efficient removal for the deck. Chumping with a token is a small cost to activate morbid in order to take down opponents bombs.
I can't wait to see token generators get spoiled. It will only take one efficient generator to take this deck to the next level to fill the few shaky slots. We'll just have to wait and see with our fingers crossed.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
I really like Vraska at the top end of the spectrum. Getting a GB shouldn't be that hard, I don't want to run too many B producing mana however. This scares me with Abrupt Decay, because of the restrictive mana cost it makes our mana base more shaky. If birds were reprinted, I'd probably say 100% to abrupt decay - but without them yet, I'm not exactly sure. Tragic Slip is good, but I expect more aggro decks to be popular than singular bomb decks. The benefit to Vraska, ORing and Abrupt Decay is that they are versatile unlike Slip.
I may even consider running Thraben Heretic in my sideboard if GB zombies really becomes scary.
As of right now though, I might replace my 2 copies of either Growing Rank/Trostatni MB with Vraska. Trostani COULD be extremely useful against aggro matchups like Zombies. I very much doubt seeing a zombie deck win if I can keep a Trostani out for long + she survives the 'main removal' of the set (Abrupt, M.Mortars, Bonfire [6 mana bonfire is intense])
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Arbor Elf
Enchantments:
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Rancor
Instants:
4x Midnight Haunting
4x Selensya Charm
3x Tragic Slip
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Lingering Souls
1x Entreat the Angels
Planeswalkers:
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Vraska the Unseen
Lands:
4x Temple Garden
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Woodland Cemetary
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
1x Gavony Township
SB will have more pieces of removal if needed, also will contain Rootbound Defenses. Again, planning on testing Collective Blessing when i get home tonight, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes. Will also see if I run into any mana issues and how they could be fixed.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
I'd be interested to see this played, I mean, from all my understanding about Parallel Lives in a standard setting t4 is to important to be throwing down PLives instead of something else. Fresh Meat is fantastic and will be sorely missed, however Rootborn Defense might be fine (especially if it populates something besides a measly 1/1). Also, I don't doubt to see token lists being played for a little bit. Hell, if the generators are in their it may be t1. It is extremely hard to tell where we will be in the meta without the generators... Also, I heard that Gideon will be coming back in Gatecrash... If he does... God help things.
I'm intrigued by the list, seems very familiar to my first list. The problem I had with it was the manabase simply. Garruk Relentless is a really good card in this deck - i'd contemplate going 2/2 Sorin/Garruk. His easy to cast mana makes him a good bet to play whereas the others are risky. Also, as much as I liked Entreat... We simply might not have the support for it, but hell - worth a shot. As someone else mentioned however, we need a two drop token generator. Gather the Townsfolk sucks as a sorcery without human support... if there is one that we can think of that would fantastic. I would kill for a 2 drop 3/3 Centaur!
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Bant (GWu with a focus on Sublime Angel and Sigarda + Rancor):
Good deck that can get out of hand pretty damn quickly. Sublime Angel makes me cry and is a 4/3... Meaning that it can't be hit with Selesnya Charm. But you know what it can be hit by! GARRUK RELENTLESS. OH MY GOD IS THIS CARD GOOD AGAINST THIS DECK. I don't care that I'm trading Garruk for a non-planeswalker. Sublime Angel hits the floor and all those mana dorks become annoying buffers to a scary ass unremovable Siguarda. Although, I didn't have much trouble with this deck. Beat it like 5 matches only losing 1 to a game 2 mulligan to 3 and a third game that I didn't see black mana for 20 turns. Collective Blessing, Garruk Relentless and Removal is FANTASTIC in this matchup.
However my play testing friend decided to pull out another deck... Jund.
Oh god is Jund scary. He played Jund Control and it works, it really really works. There are a lot of threats in this deck to tokens and I feel this will probably be an awful matchup - let me go over them.
Olivia - Oh, hi there 1/1 tokens I'm going to eat you. On a side note, it can be removed with Garruk and Selesnya Charm (after she eats your creatures and comes out ahead)
Tragic Slip/Pillar of Flame - Oh, is that a Mana Dork or a Champion of Llambholt... Nope.
Huntmaster of Doom - Value, value, value. Shock on flip, token and lifegain. Did I mention it's a 4/4... so I can't remove it with either Garruk or Selesnya Charm. Yeah, thanks.
And... the worst card. Vampire Nighthawk - Maybe it's me and I can't deal with this card... but I lost about 3 games to a single Nighthawk that was just chilling on the field. I was afraid to attack into it, it's a 2/3... Meaning you can't trade it with a 2/2 token. Double blocking sucks... and a smart player won't attack into it. The only good thing about this card is that it dies to Garruk and doens't kill him.
Champion of Llambholt might move to my sideboard. It is fantastic in mirror matchups against tokens - but it's 1 life is still relevant in the format. Also, bounce destroys it. It's a good card that has won me matchups, but maybe not MB worthy. Although, I don't see GB zombies running Slip.
Vraska was nice - I do need to add another black mana to support her though. I found a lot of the times I wasn't hitting black mana yesterday. To be honest, I'd be much happier if there was a dork that produced black mana - but that would make GB just to good.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Actually that is wrong. Yes, it can't be hit unless it is attacking, but the second it does you can. Looking at the ruling for other cards that are similar(Intrepid Hero) you look at the power when the spell resolves. So for Sublime Angel its power becomes 5+ no matter what when it attacks, at that point it can be the target of Selesnya Charm.
I doubt that people are going to swing with their Sublime Angel. At least the person I was playing against would never swing with her. She's too good to lose like that. If you have Dorks and a Sublime Angel on the field - you probably are in a position to just swing with a regular flier or a dork and not risk the trade. If she swings, she's fair game
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Well, most I've played against do, especially when the board has very few creatures big/bad enough to kill her. But that will probably change with Selesyna Charm.
At the same time there are still ways to deal with her. They just aren't as card advantageous(2 Selesyna Charms or Rancor + Selesyna Charm) or require more general killing capabilities(Murder).
These are good questions. I guess it comes down to a desire to see if tokens, and the Selesnya swarm can work for me. If it can't (for example we don't get a better token generator) than Junk Value creatures is going to be next on my list. I don't feel that Junk walkers is strong enough compared to other SuperFriends combo. At least not without Gideon.
I've redone my list a little. I can't figure out my last card yet, but I'll be posted it soon.
Third Iteration:
I really, really want 3 Collective Blessings. I feel that everytime I resolve one I win 9/10 times. Especially off a ramp. However, I'm going to try Slime Molding for a bit... Just because. I don't think it'll be worth it, but it's a nice populate that you can sink your mana into. However, as I keep saying - the two drop instant token generator is stupid needed.
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Arbor Elf
Instants: 11
4x Selesnya Charm
4x Midnight Haunting
3x Rootborn Defenses
Sorceries: 6
4x Lingering Souls
2x Slime Molding
3x Garruk Relentless
1x Vraska the Unseen
Enchantments: 7
3x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
Lands: 24
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
1x Isolated Chapel
2x Gavony Township
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Grove of the Guardian
I doubt I'll keep Slime Molding for longer than a night. It'll get replaced soon. Worth trying though. I'll probably replace -2 Slime Molding with +1 Vraska, +1 ... something? Entreat the Angels? Trostanti? Revenge of the Hunted? Odric, Master Tactician?
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I very much dislike swinging with Sublime for 2 reasons against this deck (I'm said playtesting partner):
1) Midnight Haunting with tokens on board, similarly with rootborn defense
2) The charm
I much prefer sitting back and letting a smiter eat the removal, or Geist which is otherwise very lackluster in this matchup, or my favourite...a Rancored up Sigarda.
I don't think my Bant list was very good, I think it needs a lot of work, but it may just be that tokens is a bad matchup for it. I suppose we really need to see what else comes from the rest of the set but I was really drawn to two decks, Bant and Jund, so I ended up swapping over to give a Jund list a test run...and as Nerubian said...it works.
Basically my gameplan against tokens is to develop a board stall, and similar to modern, you want to put both into top deck mode. It was brilliant because with a Huntmaster and a Nighthawk on the field, his few tokens were useless. And every turn he draw/go, I draw another removal spell..so it gets to the point where I'm sitting with 2x Abrupt Decay and a Tragic Slip in hand, and all I'm doing every turn is swinging with my one wolf token.
I'm not sure how Tokens is supposed to beat it, post-sideboard it gets even worse because (I haven't build a side yet since I wanted to get some games in to see what I like in the main and what I want/need for the side) I will definitely be bringing in sweepers for some of the single target removal, ie: pillars probably go out for bonfire + mortars. I think the key will lie in what further token generators the set brings, and you definitely need a way to deal with Nighthawk. And O-ring/D.Sphere are not them (Abrupt Decay). You are in green so maybe Plummet in the board? It also would take care of Sublime Archangel and a swinging angel token off geist. It also kills flipped Delver, which will still be a thing, and it kills Thundermaw Hellkite (something I'm also considering for either miser's mainboard or sb), granted Hellkite has done it's work against tokens after etb, albeit less so if you have a virtue live.
Further on collective blessing, it was really the difference maker in a few matches vs Bant. The idea with Bant is I'm going bigger than tokens are, but with blessing it just nullifies that advantage completely. The other problem I have is the chumps, I utilize some trample and a lot of flying, but that evasion is not active against the current token deck due to all the spirits. I think the diversification of tokens would actually probably make that matchup stronger for Bant in general gameplan, while of course making the matchup less prone to blowouts from Token's perspective in terms of a D. Sphere wiping your entire board.
One can hope the GW mythic spells does token generation, and I think it probably will...I'm not sure what the other side of the card will be but it's hard to figure out what would not be broken and what would not be underpowered...
Maybe something like XWGG: Put an X/X token into play and I'm not sure of the other effect. I have a feeling that will be the spell previewed tomorrow considering we got the other 2 spells this week. Although it's possible we get Golgari instead, in which case I'll have to hear Nerubian complain about it all weekend. Selesnya guildmage also has yet to be revealed, I'd be shocked if it didn't have a token making ability on it - Golgari guildmage has one..
I still think it'll be X 2/2 Saprolings. We haven't seen any of the former guild's main focus. Of course, I want create X 2/2 Saprolings then put X +1/+1 counters on tokens you control. So brokenly awesome. Either way, to your comment about splitting up the token generator making Bant stronger. I disagree. The reason I'm forced into chump mode so often is because the tokens themselves are so weak. Forcing me on the defensive. If the tokens were stronger (2/2 Knights, 3/3 Centaurs) you'd be forced on the defensive. If you are swinging at me with a Sigarda and I have 2 Knights and a Centaur on the field instead of 4-6 Spirit tokens I'll be much happier to take the damage and race you back. Especially if I drop a collective blessing.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Turn 4 I want something important to happen in my hand. Parallel Lives isn't that card. It's a bit like Hero, in that it comes down, has a big target on it and doesn't have immediate impact. additionally the next turn, you need to play token cards or a PW that produces tokens to take advantage of it. However, on turn 5 I am almost always looking to either activate Gavony or Vault, both of which are almost always superior plays.
I like the card in a goldfish and in EDH, but I don't think it's the right card for this deck due to it's lack of impact. In theory we could cheat it out a little earlier, like turn 3 but then were building a deck around it and I am not sure that is such a smart idea.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
4 rancor
4 doomed traveler
2cc
4 precint captain
4 intangible virtue
4 selensyna charm
4 abrupt decay
4 gather the townsfolk
4 lingering souls
3 midnight haunting
3 rootborn defenses
land: 22
4 isolated chapel
4 overgrown tomb
4 temple garden
4 sunpetal grove
6 plains
It's a more durable version of tokens with early game rush and mid-game instants and combat tricks. You should be leading by turn 3-4 in terms of racing, once you hit turn 4-5, u can sit back on your combat tricks to carry through the day.
Because in most games, having one big guy doesn't help. It's better to maximize synergies, and increase the overall size of your board.
I would switch out Midnight Haunting for something that will generate tokens every turn, like Garruk, or Sorin.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Good to know about Rancor. I had a few apts I was unsure about anyways.
So far, without birds you are stretching the mana base really thin trying to run sorin. Sorin is fantastic. I want to be able to run him, but it's hard on the mana incorporating both Selesyna charm and Abrupt Decay followed by Sorin. Maybe its better now with my mana base cause I'm not running Trostani or ranks. If we had birds id argue for more than a black splash.
Haunt is fantastic. However, I dislike gather and precinct captain (same argument as way faring temple... If anything id argue that the captain is worse). Collective Blessing is also a must. Without honour of the pure we don't always get the t2 anthem to make our 1/1s resilient. We need that huge boost of power. Every game it resolves and it is allowed to stay on the board for a few turns. I win.
My decks have really stopped using the populate mechanic which is unfortunate. But, hopefully something else is spoiled. Ranks would have been so good of it populated when it ETB.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I run 3 Rootborn Defense right now MB. Everytime I have it, it is a good card. It is so undercosted it is fantastic. I may even throw a fourth one MB or at least SB. I really like Midnight Haunting, not a huge fan of tapping out for 2 1/1 human tokens on t2. I'd much rather surprise blocker Selesnya charm or throw down a lingering souls. If we get a 2drop instant generator, it's going in my deck. Instant Token generators are just so fantastic...
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Only thing I can think of is Vile Rebirth . Although, I don't know if it's worth it or not... It probably is a SB card against Zombies though.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Since we still have no generators it's hard to comment on anything. I decided to work on a sideboard after facing some more Jund and Jund Zombies (mostly GB). Jund control gets a little bit easier game 2 once they side out single target removal. More sweepers of course means you need to not over-extend and I put in an extra Rootbond Defense. Also, Blood Artist is pretty nice.
GB Zombies. Fast deck is fast. Blood Artist has to be the most annoying card in this deck, so fantastic. Rancor on a gravecrawler and Loltroll is nice and all, but Blood Artist doesn't let you stabilize. Trading is bad against this deck. I really like Vile Rebirth in the sideboard against this deck however (I usually switch out some Hauntings for it). It allows for you to instant remove their Gravecrawler once it hits the Graveyard from Loltroll or Messenger. Also, you get a pretty sizeable blocker. Trostani is actually a beast in this matchup... 2/5 allows you to block forever while gaining more life. I think I might add more into my sideboard just for this matchup, but I'm testing things out.
Here is my sideboard + deck for now.
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Arbor Elf
Instants: 11
4x Selesnya Charm
4x Midnight Haunting
3x Rootborn Defenses
Sorceries: 4
4x Lingering Souls
Planeswalkers: 4
3x Garruk Relentless
1x Vraska the Unseen
Enchantments: 9
3x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Rancor
2x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
1x Isolated Chapel
2x Gavony Township
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Grove of the Guardian
2x Erase
1x Rootbond Defenses
2x Tribute to Hunger
2x Terminus
2x Blood Artist
2x Odric, Master Tactician
2x Vile Rebirth
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Reasonings:
Vile Rebirth - Explained Earlier. Good instant removal against Zombies (also good against Jund Control... Turn those dead dorks that they tragic slipped into 2/2 zombies.)
Erase - Rancor is scary. Very scary in this format. I'd rather run this than Ray of Revelation simply because I don't think that there will be that many enchantments to deal with. Also, D-Sphere doesn't allow us to bring back our tokens after a wipe.
Blood Artist - Combat Zombies blood artist with our own, also effective against Jund and protection from sweeps. Easy mana cost so chances are it isn't a dead card. Also, with collective blessing it turns into a 3/4 - which isn't shabby.
Rootbond Defenses - I've only once not wanted this card in my hand... And it was because I had 2 others. Having the fourth in the SB protects us against sweeping.
Tribute to Hunger - I know of no other way to deal with Geist of St Traft with this deck. I miss Metamorph...
Terminus - While not the greatest card to be running with tokens it's a much needed sweep. Also, it hoses Zombies' Blood Artist and Gravecrawler + Scavenge. Also deals with Geist/Enemy Tokens/Sigarda .
Vraska the Unseen - Good card is good against control. Game winning Ultimate with Tokens + Rancor. Effective catch-all -3 removal (Curse of Death's Hold anyone). While I don't like running 2 MB because a lot of the time I find her to be a dead card, it'll be effective in certain matchups.
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - The body, lifegain and populate are all incredibly relevant against certain decks. So far, I'm not a big fan of her Main Deck but I feel that I should be running 2-3 (probably 2) SB.
Odric, Master Tactician - This will be my testing card tonight. 3/4 First strike is incredibly relevant against Zombies. Trades with anything for not too pricy of a mana investment (we run enough W mana sources to make this reliable). Also, his ability may be game changing against certain matchups. I feel that this card will be also good against the Mirror Matchup and dealing with game stalls. However, it might be garbage so I'm testing it
Maybe: Champion of Llambholt
If tokens actually make it, this will be a very good card to deal with the mirror. However, I've explain this in detail earlier in the thread.
Centaur Healer
I was playtesting this last night against Zombies. I don't care what anyone says - this lifegain is relevant. It has given me stability and his 3/3 body is incredibly useful (trades with GC and Direfrag profitably and Geralf isn't as scary). I ran two last night and never once thought it was a dead card... people don't understand how fast Zombies strike. 3/3 is extremely good.
Killing Wave - We need a sweeper :/ Mana is reasonable. I dunno though.
Other Suggestions? I feel that people (and me) are waiting for the Selesnya Mythic and the generators to see... Hard to really craft anything more. My deck is pretty scary in it's current incarnation. If we get what I hope we do, it'll easily be viable t1. If not, Junk Little Boy.dec is going to be good... everyone is excited for Jund, and forgetting how good the Junk cards are for dealing with it.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Wayfaring Temple + Champion of Lambholt are both really good for a token deck. Plus I would think about adding Growing Ranks, a free token each turn is nothing to sneeze at.
Rootborn Defenses seems more like a sideboard card to me, against aggro/burn decks. I'm not really sold on Slime Molding either, id much rather have a Champion of Lambholt or Wayfaring Temple in that spot.
I'm still working on my deck list and waiting for the rest of the spoilers since this is the deck I hope to run at States, and I hope we get more good GW spells
I forgot to edit that list. This slime moldings should be Rancors. Not sure why that isn't updated :/ I tested Wayfaring already. It's rather lackluster, I poste an analysis of both Champion and Wayfaring on page 2 (I believe). Champion is fantastic, but the one power toughness is still relevant sadly in this format so far. With Jund being so popular you have Tragic slip, pillar, abrupt decay (and loads of other bounce cards - which destroy her sadly). I really like her against the Mirror matchup though.
Growing Ranks... Is deceptive. As is trostani. With the current level of tokens the extra 1/1 on your next upkeep just isn't worth the four drop. Trostani is relevant against zombies though - so she's a potential card against Zombies.
Also, rootborn is fantastic. Indestructible + populate for 3 is actually fantastic. I never once don't want this card in my hand... At least once. There are a ton of sweepers in the format. And even then it's a damn good combat trick for dealing with things. Id test it mainboard if I were you - it's always fantastic whenever I draw it. I've been testing against jund zombies, bant and Jund control.
I've been analyzing what tokens need to be viable with a lot of the posts in this thread (or at least my opinion). It'll really come down to the commons - although my
Current list is extremely consistent and very powerful. I'm really happy with this archetype right now
We got a token version of Watchwolf... FANTASTIC! The question is - what do we take out. Rancor is effective, Garruk can win games on his own. Rootbond Defenses is a fantastic undercosted card. Midnight Haunting's instant speed is great, Selesnya's Charm is versatile. Lingering Souls gives the most amount of bodies considering the cost. I'm testing Sorin mainboard over Vraska (2/2 Garruk, Sorin split). Sorin might come out (considering it stretches the mana base). Or Rancor
I'm going to be try this tonight.
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Arbor Elf
Instants: 11
4x Selesnya Charm
4x Midnight Haunting
3x Rootborn Defenses
Sorceries: 8
4x Lingering Souls
4x Call of the Conclave
2x Garruk Relentless
Enchantments: 7
3x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
Lands: 24
2x Forest
3x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Isolated Chapel
2x Gavony Township
1x Vault of the Archangel
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Several reasons. 1, tokens are a very different angle of approach than Junk Walkers. They are usually much more aggressive, and they establish a large board prescence quickly. Walkers is a more control-oriented deck. 2, Intangible Virtue is a card. It alone makes Tokens a viable deck strategy, it is THAT powerful. 3, it can put out just as much power as other decks, and thanks to some new card, it has resilience as well, so....why not? It thrashes several matchups that will still be around post-rotation (Zombies, Humans) and was only ever really a card or two from being a major force this last meta.
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