Anyway, I like your list from above, but what i wouldn't play is Collective Blessing. I never was a fan of those big anthems.
I don't think you understand how hard it is to face down Collective Blessing from the other side. This card is very good. In tokens it works because the token idea is to generate a bunch of smaller creatures, whereas other decks go over top of you, now all of a sudden you're on the same level or above them.
Without enchantment removal it's a very difficult spell to face down, it makes Bonfires whiff unless it's miracled or very late game, in conjunction with virtue it takes you out of Mizzium Mortar's range.
Granted I'm speaking only from a Jund Control standpoint, but I also played Jund Zombies against it, and unless I have him low on life and a blood artist on the field/hope I can draw a burn spell, it's pretty much an auto-scoop.
It's a very good card in this deck, and permission isn't as prevalent now, so it's not like you have to worry about it being countered too much.
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
With what's been spoiled... I think it may be better to drop the black entirely. Lingering Souls isn't the best generator anymore. Tokens are strong. Extremely strong.
Lingering Souls is only good because of the flashback cost of it. The Sorcery speed of it also hurts. Now, RtR has a LOT of graveyard hate (also we would be running Rest in Peace in our sideboard) which makes Lingering Soul's effectiveness lower as well. The question becomes - with everything that has been spoiled, is it worth splashing another colour JUST for a card that has been weakened because of the set mechanics. I'm not sure it is anymore. Populating a spirit token was never my biggest desire.
The flying does helps, and the 4 bodies make Collective Blessing an absolute monster with it. And assuming it doesn't get exiled from the GY or wiped from it, it still is a fantastic card. I guess what I'm arguing is, it might be worth it to try to drop black because of it. It allows us more options into tech (such as maybe the guild mage, good hate cards or something else). When we splash back we are doing it solely for lingering souls, I just wonder if it's worth it.
Watchwolf, Selesnya Charm and Midnight Haunting are fantastic cards. However - Deathrite Shaman might be the reason we run Black... THAT is a good card.
Although, I do want to be adding Deathrite Shaman into it. Focusing on just G/W allows me to run Rancor, a fantastic card - whereas black gives me access to Deathrite Shaman (stupid good card) and Lingering Souls. I mean, seriously... Deathrite shaman is a 2 damage shock each turn at the cost of exiling a card we're never going to use. Also, we can instant speed exile zombie cards AND gain two life... It's also avoids tragic slip.
Lingering Souls is only good because of the flashback cost of it. The Sorcery speed of it also hurts. Now, RtR has a LOT of graveyard hate (also we would be running Rest in Peace in our sideboard) which makes Lingering Soul's effectiveness lower as well. The question becomes - with everything that has been spoiled, is it worth splashing another colour JUST for a card that has been weakened because of the set mechanics. I'm not sure it is anymore. Populating a spirit token was never my biggest desire.
The flying does helps, and the 4 bodies make Collective Blessing an absolute monster with it. And assuming it doesn't get exiled from the GY or wiped from it, it still is a fantastic card. I guess what I'm arguing is, it might be worth it to try to drop black because of it. It allows us more options into tech (such as maybe the guild mage, good hate cards or something else). When we splash back we are doing it solely for lingering souls, I just wonder if it's worth it.
Watchwolf, Selesnya Charm and Midnight Haunting are fantastic cards. However - Deathrite Shaman might be the reason we run Black... THAT is a good card.
I think Lingering Souls is just too good to not play in a token deck. There will be graveyard hate, but I doubt someone will side it in against a G/W/b token deck.
Black also opens up some sideboard options like Vile Rebirth etc.
I think Lingering Souls is just too good to not play in a token deck. There will be graveyard hate, but I doubt someone will side it in against a G/W/b token deck.
Black also opens up some sideboard options like Vile Rebirth etc.
You may be right on Lingering Souls, I may have gotten caught up by the OMGSPOILERS. Now that I'm looking at my Selesnya look compared to my Junk list, I do like my Junk list more.
Also, on Wayfaring vs Champion.
From Page 2
Wayfaring Temple versus Champion of Lambholt is an interesting debate. If we analyze both cards we can see they are very similar in certains ways while performing completely different roles in the deck.
Similarities:
Both are hard to cast mana restrictive cards at 3 CMC, this is a very relevant point as the difference between GW1 and GG1 is very slight with the manabase + dorks. Both have the potential to grow extremely high based on the amount of creatures on (or have been on the battlefield). Both can be extremely beneficial to token strategies.
Pros of Wayfaring:
Wayfaring Temple is used to expand the token swarm and to grow extremely big based on how much of the swarm that you have. Wayfaring also self-propegates himself considering he populates the swarm thus making him stronger. The upside of this is that you don't necessarily need to have cards to help making him stronger or a threat, he does this automatically - assuming that you have a token in play. The more he hits, the stronger he gets, the faster you win and the better your board position becomes. He is also not worried about being bounced - if you bounce him, congrats - you've saved a turn. He is a cheap card that can grow A LOT.
Cons of Wayfaring:
The obvious one is that he needs to hit and has no version of evasion. If he had Vigilance, Trample or Reach he would be FANTASTIC and an auto-include. The reason that I bring this up is that he can be chump blocked forever. Rancor is Wayfaring's best friend, the problem is that running Rancor is a token deck doesn't seem as effective as it could be. You could combine Rancor and Sublime Angel to achieve this with Wayfaring Temple in a token deck, but I don't plan on running Sublime Angel. The second con is that if he doesn't hit, he does nothing. Simply he is a dead card if you aren't hitting with him, this scares me. Also, after a board wipe he is only a 1/1 on your next turn. He also is required to swing every turn to make him useful.
Pro's of Champion:
Champion fits the role of an alpha striker. In a token deck, especially with populate she fits an important role. Winning. Assume that you play Champion t2, followed up by a Midnight Haunting or a Lingering Souls t3. Your champion is now a 3/3. This means that you should have no issue getting in with your tokens, and she can end the game extremely quickly if left unchecked. With Populate especially she doesn't require as many cards to become bigger and bigger. She also does not need to swing to make advantage of her, which is HUGE, in my eyes. She simply is a threat that grows and grows and if left unchecked in a token deck can win the game, even with small 2/2-4/4 tokens.
Cons of Champion:
Her biggest one is that she is subject to bounce. We don't have many ways of saving her from bounce, no Autumn's Veil (Ranger's Guile yes - but really isn't that good). She also requires other cards to be good, albeit not as much considering the populate mechanic. GG1 is a little harder to cast than GW1 as well. She also doesn't help the swarm grow bigger, only make them win.
Comparison:
The reason I chose Champion over Temple is simply because of the fact that I believe that getting through with smaller tokens will be harder without anthems and overrun. The synergy with Champion and Collective Blessing is also fantastic as well. There are a lot of ways to get tokens onto the field with either Garruk, Lingering Souls or Trostanti/Growing Ranks. I don't believe that Wayfaring Temple is as strong without Rancor (or a trample effect). Selesnya Charm is much better used for the token or the exile effect in this deck over the Trample. However, Selesnya Charm + Champion makes for a scary unpredictable lethal swing. Imagine that she is a 3/3 from a single token maker, throw Selesnya Charm on her - creatures less than 5 can't block now. The trample isn't important here - the +2/+2 is. And, that's only with a singular token producer... The synergy works more in my eyes than the one time effect from Wayfaring's trample. Although, I'd much rather create another token or exile a massive threat.
I certainly think Champion of Lambholt holds more potential than Wayfaring Temple, but I don't particularly think either one belong in the deck. Personally, I'd say the 3cmc slot is the most important slot in this generation of token decks, and clogging it up with less than optimal cards is a damnedable mistake.
Lingering Souls most certainly is powerful, even with whatever graveyard hate is out there, but it alone shouldn't be the reason we add Black.
Edit: Well, look at that, a much more detailed post. :c
I certainly think Champion of Lambholt holds more potential than Wayfaring Temple, but I don't particularly think either one belong in the deck. Personally, I'd say the 3cmc slot is the most important slot in this generation of token decks, and clogging it up with less than optimal cards is a damnedable mistake.
Lingering Souls most certainly is powerful, even with whatever graveyard hate is out there, but it alone shouldn't be the reason we add Black.
Edit: Well, look at that, a much more detailed post. :c
I agree with this assessment on Lingering Souls and Black. The questions become - What is better: Sorin or Garruk? Sorin helps tokens more, but Garruk counts as removal. However, on the flipside, no pun intended, Garruk's ultimate and sac a creature are useless to us whereas Emblems are 100% not.
Deathrite Shaman and Vile Rebirth are fantastic SB cards (Deathrite may even be Mainboard for me). And, if Golgari Charm has a token ability AND a removal ability it'll be an auto-include. If it's decent removal and something else that helps our cause - it'll be a much better reason to run Black.
Junk Walkers with Lingering Souls is the way to go... there's just too much hate for tokens post-rotation. There's already awesome win-cons with Valaska <sp> and Gideon and "semi-win-cons" with Garruk and Sorin.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad was relatively frowned upon before, but I think he may have some sort of home now. Being able to populate Lifelink tokens is far more valuable than being able to populate Deathtouch ones; and with an active Collective Blessing that's a tremendous amount of life gain.
That essential aspect of the game, honestly, is a reason why I've considered Bant tokens—mainly for the charm—and using Trostani instead of a planeswalker. That they share a deck slot, however, makes me really think this might be Sorin's home. Sure, Trostani can populate, and her/their life gain is passive, but Sorin's able to make his own tokens, throw out a snazzy emblem should it be needed, and hell, there may be a case or two where his ultimate breaks a stalemate even.
Regarding Garruk, I'd argue that his flip ultimate is anything but useless, even if you're giving +0/+0 and trample, but considering we should have vigilance, I don't think it matters in this instance... Also, I'd much rather have a 1/1 Lifelink vampire than a 2/2 wolf or a possibly dead something.
Edit: Yes, Abrupt Decay is useful—very. Action Junkie, I dunno what you're talking about with the Gideon thing... he wasn't in M13, Ajani was. The Rakdos Charm isn't very good, and Ratchet Bomb and Day of Judgment ( although the latter is replaced ) rotate, so... I'm not sure what hate you're talking about, either.
Junk Walkers with Lingering Souls is the way to go... there's just too much hate for tokens post-rotation. There's already awesome win-cons with Valaska <sp> and Gideon and "semi-win-cons" with Garruk and Sorin.
But, GL!
We have no Gideon post rotation. We lose Elspeth as well. The only Junk Walkers we have are - Lilly (Veil), Lily (Ramp), Vraska, Garruk Relentless, Garruk Primal, Sorin.
Vraska is the only real win card here. And she only creates 3 1/1s. If you aren't running token support I'd argue her best ability is her -3. Even with token support her -3 is a much better chance than wasting her on the chance that your assassins get sweeped. She'd be good in Jund... Kessig Wolf run on a token - grats.
I would never even considering putting Vraska in a token deck. She's simply not meant for it, or much, really.... she's not that good.
I agree. With the 2 Hybrid mana that destroys artifacts or enchantments AND populates, she lost her spot. Also, the reason I have 3 blessings is that I always want one. Every game. This card makes tokens a serious threat. We no longer can stack 2 Honours and an Intangible Virtue to make our tokens serious. Blessings makes us a threat. Three may be one too many - although, when I had two I just didn't draw it enough. Abrupt Decay may be worth it. I'm not sold on it yet though. Most things that threaten us are bigger than 3 CMC.
I'm just trying to review past cards to see if anything fits in that 5cmc slot, really... It seems a bit awkward to have 8 mana dorks and only one major goal in mind. Mmm. The slime thing is kinda neat, but it's a sorcery... and without much populate it's rather useless. Oh, and, by Safe Passage do you mean Rootborn Defense, or are you worried about protecting yourself from things like Bonfire?
The top end of the deck shouldn't be silly things that take a lot to work. What it most likely will (and should be) is spamming Vitu Ghazi Guildmage triggers over. and over. and over. until they opponent is dead.
I'm just trying to review past cards to see if anything fits in that 5cmc slot, really... It seems a bit awkward to have 8 mana dorks and only one major goal in mind. Mmm. The slime thing is kinda neat, but it's a sorcery... and without much populate it's rather useless. Oh, and, by Safe Passage do you mean Rootborn Defense, or are you worried about protecting yourself from things like Bonfire?
100% rootbond. Copied it from tappedout which doesn't have it in their database. I'll change that when I get home. I agree with the dorks being a little much. To be honest, I'm probably cutting arbor out for Deathrite Shaman. Arbor is usually a dead card if you don't have a forest out - which can be often on t2.
Mmm... I... dunno... I'd honestly more consider using the Korozda Guildmage. I can't really perceive how effective Vitu-Ghazi'll be later on... although, not needing to tap to use either ability is nice.
Edit: Never mind, Korozda's second ability doesn't work with tokens. Mmm... am I misinterpreting "top end," too?
Mmm... I... dunno... I'd honestly more consider using the Korozda Guildmage. I can't really perceive how effective Vitu-Ghazi'll be later on... although, not needing to tap to use either ability is nice.
Edit: Never mind, Korozda's second ability doesn't work with tokens. Mmm... am I misinterpreting "top end," too?
Right, right. I'm not sure what to think of Deathrite at the moment, myself. He certainly seems appealing... and useful...
Korozda Guildmage is non-token creatures. Which makes it useless for us sadly. Vitu-Ghazi might be good, was considering. Thought that 6 for a token was a little much and then I realized that populating is better... Blonde moment. I'll probably reduce Arbor elf to 1-2 and put Deathrite Shaman as a 2 of. We don't flashback our spells so we could just use the B ability to do 2 damage a turn (excluding the fact that we can eat enemy Geralf's and Gravecrawler's at instant speed AND gain 2 life).
Increasing Devotion... I don't like the bodies to be honest. I've never been a fan of the card. If we had White Sun Zenith I'd be all over that... But, I don't have space for a 1 of Devotion or Entreat. I might consider Vitu-Ghazi as a 5/6 drop. Not sure though. I'm honestly out of space... And this is without adding in the potential amazing Golgari charm.
Perhaps I should develop a list sometime soon.
Yes, I'd almost forgotten about that. I took a little break when M13 came out because of college, but it seems that not much has really changed—at least to what I know of. Zombies seems to be the deck to beat right now, and being able to stop undying has always been important.
Yeah, it sucks that they're stapled to the ground... Akroma's Memorial is back in standard, but that might be a bit much, still. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is gone too, but, again, 7cmc. And, again, the Guildmage not needing to tap is great, but I like Trostani's life gain a lot... maybe I'd still best rely on Sorin, if I do go down that path. I really do hope these last remaining cards are nice; I have high hopes for the Golgari Charm.
Perhaps I should develop a list sometime soon.
Yes, I'd almost forgotten about that. I took a little break when M13 came out because of college, but it seems that not much has really changed—at least to what I know of. Zombies seems to be the deck to beat right now, and being able to stop undying has always been important.
Yeah, it sucks that they're stapled to the ground... Akroma's Memorial is back in standard, but that might be a bit much, still. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is gone too, but, again, 7cmc. And, again, the Guildmage not needing to tap is great, but I like Trostani's life gain a lot... maybe I'd still best rely on Sorin, if I do go down that path. I really do hope these last remaining cards are nice; I have high hopes for the Golgari Charm.
I don't like either of those right now. They just don't do enough compared to collective blessing. I miss Elesh though :/
Edit: If I was to drop the mana elves I'm wondering what 1 drops I'd run. Currently... I'm stuck. I mean, Doomed Traveler is still an option but without honour of the pure and Champion it's not the greatest. It's either 8 elves to help get t3 out faster (and collective blessing) or no elves and run better 1 drops that help our cause. I'm not sure yet. Suggestions? I just hate drawing 8 dorks when I start top-decking. It infuriates me when I don't have a blessing out.
Edit: If I was to drop the mana elves I'm wondering what 1 drops I'd run. Currently... I'm stuck. I mean, Doomed Traveler is still an option but without honour of the pure and Champion it's not the greatest. It's either 8 elves to help get t3 out faster (and collective blessing) or no elves and run better 1 drops that help our cause. I'm not sure yet. Suggestions? I just hate drawing 8 dorks when I start top-decking. It infuriates me when I don't have a blessing out.
We've got 2 token producing 1 drops, Doomed Traveler and Centaur's Herald. Of the 2, I think Doomed Traveler is better. It's doubtful that Centaur's Herald will survive long enough to activate it's ability.
The only other 1 drops that even appear to help us, and are in our colors, are Deathrite Shaman and Dryad Militant. Their abilities conflict, so we can't really run both. MB I'd go Deathrite, SB Dryad.
I feel like if this deck does get big, it'll be splashing blue, not black. My reasoning for that is that the deck already has an answer for Supreme Verdict in the form of Rootborn Defenses. The sweepers it has to worry about to a greater extent are Terminus, Devastation Tide, Mutilate, and I believe there's a new Izzet bounce Overload spell that while slow, still exists. Also, to a lesser extent, Detention Sphere is a mini-DOJ against us. So, splashing Blue allows you to run/side Negate to shut those down, as well as your own Detention Spheres for the mirror.
Blue also gives access to Geist of Saint Traft, who plays pretty nicely with Token anthems, Rootborn Defenses, and Selesnya Charm, as well as Cackling Counterpart, although that spell is more gimmicky and honestly not worth the potential of setting off a Thragtusk populate chain. There's Moorland Haunt, but there are so few actual creatures that it's probably not worth it.
This is all wild conjecture on my part though, and I like some of what black brings to the table. To those who have had the time to playtest more extensively, how does the deck do versus sweepers? Between Lingering Souls and Garruk/Sorin, is the deck already resilient enough?
When it comes to Bant vs. Doran, I think I'm honestly hinging on the reveal of the Golgari Charm. As it stands, the Azorius Charm is extremely powerful, but if the BG grants some sort of token production that's more valuable than a team swinging for revival, it might settle me on those colors.
It is very important, actually, that everyone knows that Populating tokens that would fade because of their producer's wording, will stay because Populate generated them from a separate ability. ( Ex. Parallel Lives and Geist of Saint Traft; PL creates a replacement effect that causes Geist to produce two swinging angel tokens, as thus they still bear the "exile at next end phase" clause. However, an angel token that's Populated is a generated copy; it's a 4/4 flyer, and although it doesn't come out swinging, it will come into play untapped and stay until dealt with. )
I might argue, as well, that having Favorable Winds may not be a direct equivalent to Honor of the Pure, but in Bant tokens, you likely have mainly flying creatures. ( Unfortunately, that's mainly Spirits, which—as pointed out—makes us pretty easy targets to Detention Sphere. Although, we would have access to Drogskol Captain, should we be "Spirit tribal." )
Golgari Charm is not good for tokens, sadly. It's gonna be great for Zombies.
-1/-1 to all creatures:
I shouldn't have to point out why tokens would never use this ability.
Destroy target enchantment:
If enchantments are a problem, we do have Sundering Growth, which has a better effect.
Regenerate every creature you control:
Now here's a good effect for us. We do have Rootborn Defenses though, which is arguably better.
And I realize that the true value lies in the versatility, but you have to ask yourself whether it's worth it to run this instead of either of the other two charms first. Selesnya gives tokens, pump, or removal. Azorius gives removal, livegain, or draw. And for the two other spells it could replace...Sundering Growth is a SB card anyways, and I personally just think Populate is stronger in this deck. This looks like SB material at best, that would be at its best against a deck that uses both Enchantments and destruction sweepers. Detention Sphere does its damage as soon as it ETBs, so removing it is pointless....we'll just have to see.
The other relevant spoiler, Armada Wurm, (2GGWW: 5/5 Trample, spawns 5/5 Wurm token on ETB), is good, but I don't think it's better as a finisher than the Blessing. Maybe SB material....
Golgari Charm isn't necessarily useless, it would be fantastic in the mirror matchup. However, that point aside the -1/-1 isn't as deter mental to us as it could be. Now I believe that without honor of the pure we should be moving away from the 1/1 spirits as they just aren't strong enough without it. Now, Spirits are useful and we will e keeping them in our deck, however we aren't the same as bw tokens that only had 1/1s. We have things that will survive -1/-1 (knight, centaur, wolf from Garruks). We also have intangible virtue, Blessing, Gavony Township and whatever other token Lord we want to use. If our spirits are 1/1s we are in a very bad spot. Now, look at the meta (as so far as we can predict) Zombies both BG and Jund will be weak to this. Against BG this hits Gravecrawler, Loltroll, and whatever greedy high power low toughness creature they run. Against Jund it is even more useful. Hits blood artist (their reach) and destroys Aristocrat as well - which is huge news. No, it is not fantastic as we'd hope - but not
Much can compare to the selesnya charm. The regenerate is useful as well, although rootborn is better, it is nice to have options against certain decks though (Jund control - which can use curse of deaths hold). it also kills enemy dorks if we don't run them/they have been townshipped)
The Selesnya mythic disappoints me. I was really hoping for an instant or sorcery... Not
Another creature :/ It may have its uses as 2 5/5s for 6 that have trample and can be populated is a pretty nice deal. Just not what I wanted.
I don't think you understand how hard it is to face down Collective Blessing from the other side. This card is very good. In tokens it works because the token idea is to generate a bunch of smaller creatures, whereas other decks go over top of you, now all of a sudden you're on the same level or above them.
Without enchantment removal it's a very difficult spell to face down, it makes Bonfires whiff unless it's miracled or very late game, in conjunction with virtue it takes you out of Mizzium Mortar's range.
Granted I'm speaking only from a Jund Control standpoint, but I also played Jund Zombies against it, and unless I have him low on life and a blood artist on the field/hope I can draw a burn spell, it's pretty much an auto-scoop.
It's a very good card in this deck, and permission isn't as prevalent now, so it's not like you have to worry about it being countered too much.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
The flying does helps, and the 4 bodies make Collective Blessing an absolute monster with it. And assuming it doesn't get exiled from the GY or wiped from it, it still is a fantastic card. I guess what I'm arguing is, it might be worth it to try to drop black because of it. It allows us more options into tech (such as maybe the guild mage, good hate cards or something else). When we splash back we are doing it solely for lingering souls, I just wonder if it's worth it.
Watchwolf, Selesnya Charm and Midnight Haunting are fantastic cards. However - Deathrite Shaman might be the reason we run Black... THAT is a good card.
4x Arbor Elf
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
Instant (11)
4x Midnight Haunting
3x Rootbond Defenses
4x Selesnya Charm
4x Call of the Conclave
Enchantment (10)
3x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Rancor
Planeswalker (3)
3x Garruk Relentless
2x Gavony Township
2x Grove of the Guardian
6x Forest
6x Plains
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
Compared to Junk:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
Instant (11)
4x Midnight Haunting
3x Rootbond Defenses
4x Selesnya Charm
Sorcery (8)
4x Call of the Conclave
4x Lingering Souls
3x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
Planeswalker (2)
2x Garruk Relentless
Land (24)
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
4x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
4x Temple Garden
1x Vault of the Archangel
Although, I do want to be adding Deathrite Shaman into it. Focusing on just G/W allows me to run Rancor, a fantastic card - whereas black gives me access to Deathrite Shaman (stupid good card) and Lingering Souls. I mean, seriously... Deathrite shaman is a 2 damage shock each turn at the cost of exiling a card we're never going to use. Also, we can instant speed exile zombie cards AND gain two life... It's also avoids tragic slip.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I think Lingering Souls is just too good to not play in a token deck. There will be graveyard hate, but I doubt someone will side it in against a G/W/b token deck.
Black also opens up some sideboard options like Vile Rebirth etc.
also, what do you think about Champion of Lambholt and Wayfaring Temple?
You may be right on Lingering Souls, I may have gotten caught up by the OMGSPOILERS. Now that I'm looking at my Selesnya look compared to my Junk list, I do like my Junk list more.
Also, on Wayfaring vs Champion.
From Page 2
Similarities:
Both are hard to cast mana restrictive cards at 3 CMC, this is a very relevant point as the difference between GW1 and GG1 is very slight with the manabase + dorks. Both have the potential to grow extremely high based on the amount of creatures on (or have been on the battlefield). Both can be extremely beneficial to token strategies.
Pros of Wayfaring:
Wayfaring Temple is used to expand the token swarm and to grow extremely big based on how much of the swarm that you have. Wayfaring also self-propegates himself considering he populates the swarm thus making him stronger. The upside of this is that you don't necessarily need to have cards to help making him stronger or a threat, he does this automatically - assuming that you have a token in play. The more he hits, the stronger he gets, the faster you win and the better your board position becomes. He is also not worried about being bounced - if you bounce him, congrats - you've saved a turn. He is a cheap card that can grow A LOT.
Cons of Wayfaring:
The obvious one is that he needs to hit and has no version of evasion. If he had Vigilance, Trample or Reach he would be FANTASTIC and an auto-include. The reason that I bring this up is that he can be chump blocked forever. Rancor is Wayfaring's best friend, the problem is that running Rancor is a token deck doesn't seem as effective as it could be. You could combine Rancor and Sublime Angel to achieve this with Wayfaring Temple in a token deck, but I don't plan on running Sublime Angel. The second con is that if he doesn't hit, he does nothing. Simply he is a dead card if you aren't hitting with him, this scares me. Also, after a board wipe he is only a 1/1 on your next turn. He also is required to swing every turn to make him useful.
Pro's of Champion:
Champion fits the role of an alpha striker. In a token deck, especially with populate she fits an important role. Winning. Assume that you play Champion t2, followed up by a Midnight Haunting or a Lingering Souls t3. Your champion is now a 3/3. This means that you should have no issue getting in with your tokens, and she can end the game extremely quickly if left unchecked. With Populate especially she doesn't require as many cards to become bigger and bigger. She also does not need to swing to make advantage of her, which is HUGE, in my eyes. She simply is a threat that grows and grows and if left unchecked in a token deck can win the game, even with small 2/2-4/4 tokens.
Cons of Champion:
Her biggest one is that she is subject to bounce. We don't have many ways of saving her from bounce, no Autumn's Veil (Ranger's Guile yes - but really isn't that good). She also requires other cards to be good, albeit not as much considering the populate mechanic. GG1 is a little harder to cast than GW1 as well. She also doesn't help the swarm grow bigger, only make them win.
Comparison:
The reason I chose Champion over Temple is simply because of the fact that I believe that getting through with smaller tokens will be harder without anthems and overrun. The synergy with Champion and Collective Blessing is also fantastic as well. There are a lot of ways to get tokens onto the field with either Garruk, Lingering Souls or Trostanti/Growing Ranks. I don't believe that Wayfaring Temple is as strong without Rancor (or a trample effect). Selesnya Charm is much better used for the token or the exile effect in this deck over the Trample. However, Selesnya Charm + Champion makes for a scary unpredictable lethal swing. Imagine that she is a 3/3 from a single token maker, throw Selesnya Charm on her - creatures less than 5 can't block now. The trample isn't important here - the +2/+2 is. And, that's only with a singular token producer... The synergy works more in my eyes than the one time effect from Wayfaring's trample. Although, I'd much rather create another token or exile a massive threat.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Lingering Souls most certainly is powerful, even with whatever graveyard hate is out there, but it alone shouldn't be the reason we add Black.
Edit: Well, look at that, a much more detailed post. :c
I agree with this assessment on Lingering Souls and Black. The questions become - What is better: Sorin or Garruk? Sorin helps tokens more, but Garruk counts as removal. However, on the flipside, no pun intended, Garruk's ultimate and sac a creature are useless to us whereas Emblems are 100% not.
Deathrite Shaman and Vile Rebirth are fantastic SB cards (Deathrite may even be Mainboard for me). And, if Golgari Charm has a token ability AND a removal ability it'll be an auto-include. If it's decent removal and something else that helps our cause - it'll be a much better reason to run Black.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
But, GL!
That essential aspect of the game, honestly, is a reason why I've considered Bant tokens—mainly for the charm—and using Trostani instead of a planeswalker. That they share a deck slot, however, makes me really think this might be Sorin's home. Sure, Trostani can populate, and her/their life gain is passive, but Sorin's able to make his own tokens, throw out a snazzy emblem should it be needed, and hell, there may be a case or two where his ultimate breaks a stalemate even.
Regarding Garruk, I'd argue that his flip ultimate is anything but useless, even if you're giving +0/+0 and trample, but considering we should have vigilance, I don't think it matters in this instance... Also, I'd much rather have a 1/1 Lifelink vampire than a 2/2 wolf or a possibly dead something.
I'm also not exactly sure what I think of three Collective Blessings...
Edit: Yes, Abrupt Decay is useful—very. Action Junkie, I dunno what you're talking about with the Gideon thing... he wasn't in M13, Ajani was. The Rakdos Charm isn't very good, and Ratchet Bomb and Day of Judgment ( although the latter is replaced ) rotate, so... I'm not sure what hate you're talking about, either.
We have no Gideon post rotation. We lose Elspeth as well. The only Junk Walkers we have are - Lilly (Veil), Lily (Ramp), Vraska, Garruk Relentless, Garruk Primal, Sorin.
Vraska is the only real win card here. And she only creates 3 1/1s. If you aren't running token support I'd argue her best ability is her -3. Even with token support her -3 is a much better chance than wasting her on the chance that your assassins get sweeped. She'd be good in Jund... Kessig Wolf run on a token - grats.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I agree. With the 2 Hybrid mana that destroys artifacts or enchantments AND populates, she lost her spot. Also, the reason I have 3 blessings is that I always want one. Every game. This card makes tokens a serious threat. We no longer can stack 2 Honours and an Intangible Virtue to make our tokens serious. Blessings makes us a threat. Three may be one too many - although, when I had two I just didn't draw it enough. Abrupt Decay may be worth it. I'm not sold on it yet though. Most things that threaten us are bigger than 3 CMC.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Edit: Entreat the Angels is a nice one of.
Check out my blog, Swing For Game!
100% rootbond. Copied it from tappedout which doesn't have it in their database. I'll change that when I get home. I agree with the dorks being a little much. To be honest, I'm probably cutting arbor out for Deathrite Shaman. Arbor is usually a dead card if you don't have a forest out - which can be often on t2.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Mmm... I... dunno... I'd honestly more consider using the Korozda Guildmage. I can't really perceive how effective Vitu-Ghazi'll be later on... although, not needing to tap to use either ability is nice.
Edit: Never mind, Korozda's second ability doesn't work with tokens. Mmm... am I misinterpreting "top end," too?
Right, right. I'm not sure what to think of Deathrite at the moment, myself. He certainly seems appealing... and useful...
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Well, what do we think of Increasing Devotion?
Korozda Guildmage is non-token creatures. Which makes it useless for us sadly. Vitu-Ghazi might be good, was considering. Thought that 6 for a token was a little much and then I realized that populating is better... Blonde moment. I'll probably reduce Arbor elf to 1-2 and put Deathrite Shaman as a 2 of. We don't flashback our spells so we could just use the B ability to do 2 damage a turn (excluding the fact that we can eat enemy Geralf's and Gravecrawler's at instant speed AND gain 2 life).
Increasing Devotion... I don't like the bodies to be honest. I've never been a fan of the card. If we had White Sun Zenith I'd be all over that... But, I don't have space for a 1 of Devotion or Entreat. I might consider Vitu-Ghazi as a 5/6 drop. Not sure though. I'm honestly out of space... And this is without adding in the potential amazing Golgari charm.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Yes, I'd almost forgotten about that. I took a little break when M13 came out because of college, but it seems that not much has really changed—at least to what I know of. Zombies seems to be the deck to beat right now, and being able to stop undying has always been important.
Yeah, it sucks that they're stapled to the ground... Akroma's Memorial is back in standard, but that might be a bit much, still. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is gone too, but, again, 7cmc. And, again, the Guildmage not needing to tap is great, but I like Trostani's life gain a lot... maybe I'd still best rely on Sorin, if I do go down that path. I really do hope these last remaining cards are nice; I have high hopes for the Golgari Charm.
I don't like either of those right now. They just don't do enough compared to collective blessing. I miss Elesh though :/
Edit: If I was to drop the mana elves I'm wondering what 1 drops I'd run. Currently... I'm stuck. I mean, Doomed Traveler is still an option but without honour of the pure and Champion it's not the greatest. It's either 8 elves to help get t3 out faster (and collective blessing) or no elves and run better 1 drops that help our cause. I'm not sure yet. Suggestions? I just hate drawing 8 dorks when I start top-decking. It infuriates me when I don't have a blessing out.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Thragtusk
3x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
2x Trostani
Instant (3)
3x Selesnya Charm
Sorcery (8)
4x Call of the Conclave
4x Lingering Souls
2x Revenge of the Hunted
4x Intangible Virtue
Planeswalker (7)
4x Garruk Relentless
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Land (24)
5x Forest
2x Gavony Township
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
4x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
4x Temple Garden
I don't think I like blessing that much.
There are other anthem effects to be had.
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We've got 2 token producing 1 drops, Doomed Traveler and Centaur's Herald. Of the 2, I think Doomed Traveler is better. It's doubtful that Centaur's Herald will survive long enough to activate it's ability.
The only other 1 drops that even appear to help us, and are in our colors, are Deathrite Shaman and Dryad Militant. Their abilities conflict, so we can't really run both. MB I'd go Deathrite, SB Dryad.
Blue also gives access to Geist of Saint Traft, who plays pretty nicely with Token anthems, Rootborn Defenses, and Selesnya Charm, as well as Cackling Counterpart, although that spell is more gimmicky and honestly not worth the potential of setting off a Thragtusk populate chain. There's Moorland Haunt, but there are so few actual creatures that it's probably not worth it.
This is all wild conjecture on my part though, and I like some of what black brings to the table. To those who have had the time to playtest more extensively, how does the deck do versus sweepers? Between Lingering Souls and Garruk/Sorin, is the deck already resilient enough?
It is very important, actually, that everyone knows that Populating tokens that would fade because of their producer's wording, will stay because Populate generated them from a separate ability. ( Ex. Parallel Lives and Geist of Saint Traft; PL creates a replacement effect that causes Geist to produce two swinging angel tokens, as thus they still bear the "exile at next end phase" clause. However, an angel token that's Populated is a generated copy; it's a 4/4 flyer, and although it doesn't come out swinging, it will come into play untapped and stay until dealt with. )
I might argue, as well, that having Favorable Winds may not be a direct equivalent to Honor of the Pure, but in Bant tokens, you likely have mainly flying creatures. ( Unfortunately, that's mainly Spirits, which—as pointed out—makes us pretty easy targets to Detention Sphere. Although, we would have access to Drogskol Captain, should we be "Spirit tribal." )
-1/-1 to all creatures:
I shouldn't have to point out why tokens would never use this ability.
Destroy target enchantment:
If enchantments are a problem, we do have Sundering Growth, which has a better effect.
Regenerate every creature you control:
Now here's a good effect for us. We do have Rootborn Defenses though, which is arguably better.
And I realize that the true value lies in the versatility, but you have to ask yourself whether it's worth it to run this instead of either of the other two charms first. Selesnya gives tokens, pump, or removal. Azorius gives removal, livegain, or draw. And for the two other spells it could replace...Sundering Growth is a SB card anyways, and I personally just think Populate is stronger in this deck. This looks like SB material at best, that would be at its best against a deck that uses both Enchantments and destruction sweepers. Detention Sphere does its damage as soon as it ETBs, so removing it is pointless....we'll just have to see.
The other relevant spoiler, Armada Wurm, (2GGWW: 5/5 Trample, spawns 5/5 Wurm token on ETB), is good, but I don't think it's better as a finisher than the Blessing. Maybe SB material....
Much can compare to the selesnya charm. The regenerate is useful as well, although rootborn is better, it is nice to have options against certain decks though (Jund control - which can use curse of deaths hold). it also kills enemy dorks if we don't run them/they have been townshipped)
The Selesnya mythic disappoints me. I was really hoping for an instant or sorcery... Not
Another creature :/ It may have its uses as 2 5/5s for 6 that have trample and can be populated is a pretty nice deal. Just not what I wanted.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue