Lands - I think it's pretty self explanatory. Blue, Black, and Green are all needed. I've seen several lists over at TMD which push into Red for some sideboard options, but I've been sticking with 3-color until I really see a need.
Creatures - I've not yet wished that there was a 4th Dryad and I could see cutting down to 1 Psychatog if needed.
Artifacts - Again, Red splash lists include the Mox Ruby, but I haven't seen the need. I run Lotus Petal which I haven't seen much. I haven't found a downside yet...
Protection - The 4 Force, 4 Duress, 3 Misdirection package is pretty standard from what I've seen. I love the Misdirections, but could see going to 2 before I would want to up it to 4, so 3 seems right to me. I'm running 2x Delay just to see how it does in the format. It's been a mini-Time Walk in some games and an easy choice to pitch in others. I've seen lists with a couple Mana Drains, but it seems less than optimal since you don't really want/need the mana (at least I haven't). And holding back for actual Counterspell mana doesn't seem too effective in this format. I could see maybe Stifle/Trickbind since it would give an out vs combo and early mana disruption.
Draw - Brainstorm, Gush, and Ancestral are auto-includes. I personally like the Sleight of Hands, but think there may be room for discussion here. I've seen Opt suggested since it's an instant.
Utility - The tutors and Time Walk are obvious in my mind. Maindeck bounce is needed, but which one is a meta call - Chain is terrible in this deck. Fastbond + Gush = great, so it goes in. I go with 3 Merchant Scrolls, but could see going to 4 in the right meta. And I like Regrowth since it really has a lot of utility in this deck.
Notable non-inclusions - Cunning Wish + Wishboard - I've seen this pop up a couple times, but it just appears so slow. The lists usually run the Wish as a 1-of, so you most likely are tutoring it, then playing it, then playing the wished-for card. What utility is worth all that? I understand that there is a level of utility to consider, but in terms of percentages, is it really worth it?
Berserk - This is the 61st card in my mind and if a spot can be opened for it, I'd include it. I've read that a lot of people talk about how it's unneeded, but I believe in the 'new' meta it will speed up the deck a lot.
Imperial Seal - Another card I believe it might be worth finding room for. An easily castable tutor in a deck with lots of draw.
Street Wraith - He could be great, but I just can't justify taking something else out. It may just be that I'm missing something.
I've had the most trouble with Ichorid (that doesn't mulligan to 1/2) and Stax. I've seen the red splash discussed as necessary to fight Stax, but really I think U/G has enough tools to hurt Stax on it's own. Again, I think it is worth investigating/discussing...
What are people's thoughts on this type of a deck?
I would put Berserk in the sideboard. I would also add a Misdirection to the Sideboard, and maybe a Daze.
A sideboard Brainfreeze may be good tech. It counters Vampiric and Mystical Tutor, acts as tech vs Brainstorm, loads your graveyard in a pinch, and in some situations can be a wishable win condition.
If you are willing to find room for a Tundra, swapping a Naturalize for a Disenchant might be a good idea depending on your meta. Personally, I just like to be versatile.
Not really: GAT is a very, very mana light deck until it goes off, and then draws infinite cards w/ infinite mana. Gifts and Fact neither adequatly set up nor are easily castable pre-'Gush off'. I would not run either.
I would think that a 4th Dyrad would be nice, but I could see the cutting of one easily enough.
I don't think petal is a great idea. You really don't/shouldn't need the mana that often, not at the cost of such card advantage for minimal tempo. However, test it.
Sleight of hand does not equal good. It has been made obsolete, and it is slow and unweildly. In its place, I would advice any combination of the following:
The Seal you mentioned: GAT needs f-bond, and it needs it now. This card does that nicely enough.
The Wriath you mentioned: Mostly, its just faster, which is what you need/want. This deck never has a problem getting spells for dryad, so I don't see why not. Negating the disadvantage of disadvantage tutors is great.
As for Delay, it even seems kind of slow in this format. I've been testing a variety of things, including spell snare, which is really excelent in this format. I'm not sure what will end up the best.
I agree with most of what you stated, even that which I disagree with I see justifications for.
I think those 3 sb slots should be Threads. Threads is just amazing atm, esspecially in the mirror.
Just some quick comments.
EDIT: Also, I'm almost certain this should be moved up to Competetive, as it has proven itself to be a tier 1 or at least 2 deck already.
@ Sakura - Are you suggesting a wishboard (and running Cunning Wish)? Otherwise, I don't understand how Berserk out of the side is particularly effective. Who do you side it in against? Fish? the Mirror? Wouldn't there be better cards? The same goes for Misdirection and Daze. I could see it in a Wishboard, but that means including Cunning Wish in the main and I think that's sub-par.
Brain Freeze would be a waste of time in my opinion. You won't typically build up a very big storm count and having an Mirage tutor hoser doesn't seem like good use of a slot. The deck runs pretty tight list (like most Vintage lists) as far as I can tell.
If I were to splash another color, I think I would go with the masses and splash red as there are a lot more options than Disenchant for artifact hate. I'm still having trouble coming to grips with creating a shakier mana base (one-of duals) to 'improve' a bad match-up (Stax).
Stifle/Trickbind could fit in the Delay slots in the maindeck. I have been testing that lately.
@ ShiftyKapree - I actually wanted to include Gifts Ungiven and Fact or Fiction (and Frantic Search), but I found they were only good to give Psychatog a little boost during the winning attack. You really do run light with mana as has been mentioned so most of the time, they just clogged my hand.
@ Glix - I've seen lists with the fourth Quirion Dryad and only 1 Psychatog. I'm beginning to lean this way (I just really like the 'Tog more than the Gro'). Psychatog feels almost 'win-more' with Dryad doing the majority of the damage. I end up using the second one as a pitch more times than not.
Lotus Petal has been hit or miss. Some games it's nice to be able to cast one more spell on a turn and pump the Dryad a little more, but most games it's unnecessary.
Spell Snare has proven very situational. I've found it good against Fish and sometimes Flash-combo (I've found you usually need a second counter to beat Flash) otherwise it's not that great. Delay hasn't been much better - you'd be surprised how many Vintage players don't know what Suspend even is. It's situationally awesome and does act as a Time Walk or better (Delaying a Ritual or counter is some fun), but I think Stifle may just be better.
Sleight of Hand has been a lot better than Street Wraith for me. Street Wraith does work well with the Mirage Tutors/Imperial Seal, but the dig has almost always seemed better or more useful. The life-loss isn't the issue that some would make it out to be, but neither is the cost of Sleight. I would agree that these are the weakest slots in the deck, but am still not convinced that it is worth switching to Street Wraith.
Threads is an interesting suggestion. I had been toying with Smother, but Threads could work.
And if you disagree with choices - I would really like to discuss. I'm still trying to learn/understand the format. I understand some but still question a lot.
What with Manaless Ichorid being as popular as it is right now, playing any Draw-7 other than Timetwister is a very scary proposition. I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to add a color just to play one in any deck.
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I am just curious as to why Sleight of Hand is the 3rd card draw in this deck. Wouldn't things like Mental Note (Fill yard and instant), Opt, (same basic effect and instant) be better?
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That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
@ Vampire: It doesn't "go infinite" per se, but it draws like 16 cards and generates an equivalent amount of mana, so that really is close enough for this deck's purposes.
@Kapree: Wheel is awful. Hell, anything that costs more than 2 better as hell be pretty damn good.
@Senpai: Everything you said is right, although I wouldn't call wish.alwaysbeeningatsince2002.card "tech"
@Pringles: Wtf man? You have a total of, what? maybe 3 at most cards that interact with the graveyard. Why do you want to fill it? Instant speed really isn't that important compared to quality. However, I would still run wraith of sleight.
Threads are golden in the mirror and vs fish. You need at least 5 slots to take down ichorid, just as a given. I think 3 Jailer/2 Crypt is probably optimal for this, giving you sufficient variety, and some pressure.
Red Splash is optional, but I like it do the powerful anti-stax options (the worst matchup by far). Blasts are also a nice touch.
I haven't had a chance to test the deck yet but Mox Diamond seems like it would be good with 4x Gush.
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RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
What with Manaless Ichorid being as popular as it is right now, playing any Draw-7 other than Timetwister is a very scary proposition. I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to add a color just to play one in any deck.
Thats why there's crypt man. Always stop the graveyard.
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Legacy:
NO RUG
Team America
U/W Stoneblade
Zoo
No FOW bant
Modern:
In testing
Thats why there's crypt man. Always stop the graveyard.
So now we're talking about taking a card that's bad against a lot of decks and including another card to make it less bad against a specific deck. If you're talking about maindecking it then it feels like bad deckbuilding... and if you're talking about sideboarding it then you're basically conceding game 1.
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Binary, please make this thread official, this deck is practically THE deck in the format, if you aren't playing this its only due to playskill or non-magic related issues. The fact that its dominated almost every tournament for the last month should be enough.
As for a more updated list, this is what I'm playing atm:
I will note that I have found it is very important not to overboard with this deck, the core is very strong. That is why I have modified the board so that you just have a few cards for each matchup, since that's all you can really afford to remove. Plague is a filler for the moment, but theoretically it should be pretty good atm considering the resurgance of goblins and the fact that its a major hindrance to flash if resolved. Brain Freeze has been nice as a one of, its a trick that can beat bomberman in one shot, counters all the disadvantage tutors and bomb-saving brainstorms. It also allows for an alternative means of victory during certain senarios.
So I finally made the deck and I love it. Also anyone think dredge would work well with this?
Dredge decks and GAT have virtually no cards in common and are trying for entirely different roles in the game, so I don't think they would work well together.
Some GAT lists have been running Brain Freeze in the maindeck or sideboard as an alternate win. It is much easier to cast then Tendrils, which needs BB in a deck without rituals. You do need a higher storm, but that can often be easier to get then the mana for Tendrils. If you splash red you could also run Empty the Warrens as your Storm kill.
As for the rest of the deck I would much rather have a 4 Duress, 2 Mana Drain configuration in the current metagame. The 1 Bayou seems wrong, I would cut it for another basic Island.
Why in the world is mana drain in this deck, what exactly are you spending the mana on? Gush? Isn't it just not that relevant most of the time?
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SLIVER LEGION?!?!?
An open challenge to all salvation posters: Come play me at fnm at Toys From the Attic in Somersworth New Hampshire, the name is Chris Laskey and if you dare face the kithkin/red deck wins onslaught.
Drain changes the strategy of the deck slightly, making it more controling. The result is a deck that is a bit more stable. If you guys really don't understand why free mana is good, you need to test out Drain. You'll find stuff to spend the mana on, believe me. And worst case senario, yeah, you can play gush with it. Even if you burn, the times where that mana wins you games outweighs by far the time that it loses you games.
I have disliked seal. It's a sorcery, thats about the only reason. Its just not as versitile, and I'd rather have a drain or something. Adding drains in that slot allows you to have a higher quantity of quality rather than filler.
Regardless, Drain is a solid inclusion. I know this from testing, and I know this because if you look at that decks that top 8 recently, the majority of gushbond decks are using drain. That gives me both empirical and tangible proof.
Oh, and the part on the card where it says "counter target spell" is pretty good too.
if the free mana/countering is not usefull enough for you, it can always be pitched to MisD or FoW, or even brainstormed back on top leaving something else in your hand in its place. All statements questioning Drain's inclusion are based on conjecture and not actual testing. play it and know - or read tourney reports with it in the top8 decklists.
As for unpowd - agreed it will be far less consistent and not allow for extremely broken turns and explosion starts, but it could still be decent. could be is the key - depends ultimately on 2 things: your level of play skill and worthwhile card subs.
Additionally playing dredge cards in this deck would be, well, bad. I won't flame or berate your question as it infers a lack of experience with the deck and the format as a whole. Dredge decks play GY cards [see icchorid], non-dredge decks play GY hate [see leyline + yixlid] and never the tween shall meet.
Next time you post popular opinions, please word them in such a way that they're not infractable. Someone may be widely thought to be the dullest tool in the shed, but you can't publicly call him that, which as a mod I can neither confirm nor deny that I fervently believe he's a tool.
Alright, so what is the general decklist being played at this point...
Seems like
- Library of Alexandria [Due to it not being an Island]
- Leyline of the Void [From the board, being replaced by Yixlid Jailer]
+ Ponder
+ Thoughtseize [In some cases replacing Duress]
Any other changes in this deck that I'm not seeing? I don't have mine together right now, but there is supposed to be a tourny nearby soon, and I'd like to have an updated list for it.
Also, what does everyone think about Energy Flux in the board? Overcosted or worth it?
This 18 card base offers a powerful, yet extremely consistent and resilient draw engine. Discluding a ponder is an option if you are really stretching for room, but I wouldn't really recommend it. Maybe replacing one with a repeal, but ponder is just so good in this deck, I really want to have four.
You want to stay around 12 total protection cards. the 4 Force are auto-includes, and typically duress > thoughtseize, but if you want more than 4 duress start adding seizes. Seizes are also nice sb cards, and I find them to essentially be the non-splash replacement for blasts in control matchups. The more GaT/etc in the room, the more mis-ds you want. The more stax, the more drains. I would argue that beyond the 4 force/4 duress there really isn't a constant, but I like having misdirections in this kind of deck, so I would try and include at least 2 most of the time.
These slots, despite the name, are highly variable. You are usually going to want one of either tog or warrens, at least, as these will provide you with a sort of "gaurenteed" power win that can evade hate for the most part. Dryads are usually more objectivly powerful, however in a stax meta or one that is going to hate your draw engine, goyf is going to be better in the main. If you don't run goyf main, you should run it sb as it is a great card to bring in against decks like stax.
This is a pretty standard mana base. You can also splash red, usually removing an island or a tropical for a maindeck volc or two. I would not usually recommend going below 2 islands though, you need them in the stax matchup. You may also add extra lands in a more hate oriented field, this may be advantageous.
The rest of your deck, which should be around twoish cards, can be devoted towards "tech". Be advised, don't start pulling core componants for hate, the draw engine, if left alone, will be far better than having 4 maindeck rebs in the mirror. That left alone, I would highly recommend devoting one of these towards Echoing Truth. Its a catch-all solution and its scrollable, making it very viable. The other slot I would recommend Berserk. Now, you can play wish for berserk, but maindeck berserk, in my testing, has proven itself much stronger. It can be removal, and without 2U tagged on you can slip it under spheres against stax. Its also opens up valuable sideboard space.
The sideboard should be constructed along these lines, imho:
3 Goyfs: A catch all monstrosity that comes in, puts pressure on stax early and hard, beats fishy things in the skull, and does other goyf shenanigans for the low, low price of 1G (and 40 bucks ;)). Skip this if you run it main, but you want access to it.
3ish removal: I like things like clasm and ee in these slots, allthough spot removal like smother is also very strong. You don't want to really overload your sb with them, but you want access to them.
0-2 anti control/combo: You don't really need them that much, but if you feel more comoftable with an extra blast or two in your sb, so be it. Remember though, your deck runs very smoth maindeck, you don't want to dilute it too much.
4-5 anti-ichorid: Don't come unprepared, you might fight it, don't get caught with your thumb up your ass. I like a mixture of jailers, needles, and crypts. Leylines also work.
Everything Else: Anti Stax. Stax is mean. Stax plays like infintie spheres and makes your gushes cost like 10 mana. I like 4 flux for starters. Flux makes stax cry. You drop flux and you're in a great position. I also like having a single recall or something to suplement my fluxeses. Things like oxidize are also nice. Feel free to ad lib here.
If you have extra room, through in some techy things or something, maybe another seize or blast or whatever.
Damn nice explanation. The environment that I play in is flooded with combo, and has a little bit of Stax. What would you do to the deck to make it better against those matchups? Echoing Truth and Berserk? or something else?
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Here's the list I've been tinkering with...
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
CREATURES
3 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog
ARTIFACTS
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Misdirection
2 Delay
DRAW
4 Gush
4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Ancestral Recall
UTILITY
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth
Just to start some discussion...
Lands - I think it's pretty self explanatory. Blue, Black, and Green are all needed. I've seen several lists over at TMD which push into Red for some sideboard options, but I've been sticking with 3-color until I really see a need.
Creatures - I've not yet wished that there was a 4th Dryad and I could see cutting down to 1 Psychatog if needed.
Artifacts - Again, Red splash lists include the Mox Ruby, but I haven't seen the need. I run Lotus Petal which I haven't seen much. I haven't found a downside yet...
Protection - The 4 Force, 4 Duress, 3 Misdirection package is pretty standard from what I've seen. I love the Misdirections, but could see going to 2 before I would want to up it to 4, so 3 seems right to me. I'm running 2x Delay just to see how it does in the format. It's been a mini-Time Walk in some games and an easy choice to pitch in others. I've seen lists with a couple Mana Drains, but it seems less than optimal since you don't really want/need the mana (at least I haven't). And holding back for actual Counterspell mana doesn't seem too effective in this format. I could see maybe Stifle/Trickbind since it would give an out vs combo and early mana disruption.
Draw - Brainstorm, Gush, and Ancestral are auto-includes. I personally like the Sleight of Hands, but think there may be room for discussion here. I've seen Opt suggested since it's an instant.
Utility - The tutors and Time Walk are obvious in my mind. Maindeck bounce is needed, but which one is a meta call - Chain is terrible in this deck. Fastbond + Gush = great, so it goes in. I go with 3 Merchant Scrolls, but could see going to 4 in the right meta. And I like Regrowth since it really has a lot of utility in this deck.
Notable non-inclusions -
Cunning Wish + Wishboard - I've seen this pop up a couple times, but it just appears so slow. The lists usually run the Wish as a 1-of, so you most likely are tutoring it, then playing it, then playing the wished-for card. What utility is worth all that? I understand that there is a level of utility to consider, but in terms of percentages, is it really worth it?
Berserk - This is the 61st card in my mind and if a spot can be opened for it, I'd include it. I've read that a lot of people talk about how it's unneeded, but I believe in the 'new' meta it will speed up the deck a lot.
Imperial Seal - Another card I believe it might be worth finding room for. An easily castable tutor in a deck with lots of draw.
Street Wraith - He could be great, but I just can't justify taking something else out. It may just be that I'm missing something.
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Naturalize
3 Energy Flux
3 Open Slots
I've had the most trouble with Ichorid (that doesn't mulligan to 1/2) and Stax. I've seen the red splash discussed as necessary to fight Stax, but really I think U/G has enough tools to hurt Stax on it's own. Again, I think it is worth investigating/discussing...
What are people's thoughts on this type of a deck?
Fred Bear...
A sideboard Brainfreeze may be good tech. It counters Vampiric and Mystical Tutor, acts as tech vs Brainstorm, loads your graveyard in a pinch, and in some situations can be a wishable win condition.
If you are willing to find room for a Tundra, swapping a Naturalize for a Disenchant might be a good idea depending on your meta. Personally, I just like to be versatile.
Stifle/Trickbind somewhere would be a good idea.
NO RUG
Team America
U/W Stoneblade
Zoo
No FOW bant
Modern:
In testing
I would think that a 4th Dyrad would be nice, but I could see the cutting of one easily enough.
I don't think petal is a great idea. You really don't/shouldn't need the mana that often, not at the cost of such card advantage for minimal tempo. However, test it.
Sleight of hand does not equal good. It has been made obsolete, and it is slow and unweildly. In its place, I would advice any combination of the following:
The Seal you mentioned: GAT needs f-bond, and it needs it now. This card does that nicely enough.
The Wriath you mentioned: Mostly, its just faster, which is what you need/want. This deck never has a problem getting spells for dryad, so I don't see why not. Negating the disadvantage of disadvantage tutors is great.
As for Delay, it even seems kind of slow in this format. I've been testing a variety of things, including spell snare, which is really excelent in this format. I'm not sure what will end up the best.
I agree with most of what you stated, even that which I disagree with I see justifications for.
I think those 3 sb slots should be Threads. Threads is just amazing atm, esspecially in the mirror.
Just some quick comments.
EDIT: Also, I'm almost certain this should be moved up to Competetive, as it has proven itself to be a tier 1 or at least 2 deck already.
Brain Freeze would be a waste of time in my opinion. You won't typically build up a very big storm count and having an Mirage tutor hoser doesn't seem like good use of a slot. The deck runs pretty tight list (like most Vintage lists) as far as I can tell.
If I were to splash another color, I think I would go with the masses and splash red as there are a lot more options than Disenchant for artifact hate. I'm still having trouble coming to grips with creating a shakier mana base (one-of duals) to 'improve' a bad match-up (Stax).
Stifle/Trickbind could fit in the Delay slots in the maindeck. I have been testing that lately.
@ ShiftyKapree - I actually wanted to include Gifts Ungiven and Fact or Fiction (and Frantic Search), but I found they were only good to give Psychatog a little boost during the winning attack. You really do run light with mana as has been mentioned so most of the time, they just clogged my hand.
@ Glix - I've seen lists with the fourth Quirion Dryad and only 1 Psychatog. I'm beginning to lean this way (I just really like the 'Tog more than the Gro'). Psychatog feels almost 'win-more' with Dryad doing the majority of the damage. I end up using the second one as a pitch more times than not.
Lotus Petal has been hit or miss. Some games it's nice to be able to cast one more spell on a turn and pump the Dryad a little more, but most games it's unnecessary.
Spell Snare has proven very situational. I've found it good against Fish and sometimes Flash-combo (I've found you usually need a second counter to beat Flash) otherwise it's not that great. Delay hasn't been much better - you'd be surprised how many Vintage players don't know what Suspend even is. It's situationally awesome and does act as a Time Walk or better (Delaying a Ritual or counter is some fun), but I think Stifle may just be better.
Sleight of Hand has been a lot better than Street Wraith for me. Street Wraith does work well with the Mirage Tutors/Imperial Seal, but the dig has almost always seemed better or more useful. The life-loss isn't the issue that some would make it out to be, but neither is the cost of Sleight. I would agree that these are the weakest slots in the deck, but am still not convinced that it is worth switching to Street Wraith.
Threads is an interesting suggestion. I had been toying with Smother, but Threads could work.
And if you disagree with choices - I would really like to discuss. I'm still trying to learn/understand the format. I understand some but still question a lot.
Fred Bear...
NO RUG
Team America
U/W Stoneblade
Zoo
No FOW bant
Modern:
In testing
What with Manaless Ichorid being as popular as it is right now, playing any Draw-7 other than Timetwister is a very scary proposition. I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to add a color just to play one in any deck.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
@Kapree: Wheel is awful. Hell, anything that costs more than 2 better as hell be pretty damn good.
@Senpai: Everything you said is right, although I wouldn't call wish.alwaysbeeningatsince2002.card "tech"
@Pringles: Wtf man? You have a total of, what? maybe 3 at most cards that interact with the graveyard. Why do you want to fill it? Instant speed really isn't that important compared to quality. However, I would still run wraith of sleight.
I would run something along the following:
3 Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine OR LoA OR Island
4 On-Color Moxen
1 Black Lotus
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth (questionable)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
1 Yawgmoth's Win
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
As for the SB, I would run something like this:
1 Pyroblast
1 Berserk
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Threads of Disloyalty
Threads are golden in the mirror and vs fish. You need at least 5 slots to take down ichorid, just as a given. I think 3 Jailer/2 Crypt is probably optimal for this, giving you sufficient variety, and some pressure.
Red Splash is optional, but I like it do the powerful anti-stax options (the worst matchup by far). Blasts are also a nice touch.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
Thats why there's crypt man. Always stop the graveyard.
NO RUG
Team America
U/W Stoneblade
Zoo
No FOW bant
Modern:
In testing
So now we're talking about taking a card that's bad against a lot of decks and including another card to make it less bad against a specific deck. If you're talking about maindecking it then it feels like bad deckbuilding... and if you're talking about sideboarding it then you're basically conceding game 1.
As for a more updated list, this is what I'm playing atm:
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Psychatog
4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
As for Sb:
2 Oxidize
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rushing River
2 Engineered Plague
1 Berserk
1 Hydroblast
1 Darkblast
I will note that I have found it is very important not to overboard with this deck, the core is very strong. That is why I have modified the board so that you just have a few cards for each matchup, since that's all you can really afford to remove. Plague is a filler for the moment, but theoretically it should be pretty good atm considering the resurgance of goblins and the fact that its a major hindrance to flash if resolved. Brain Freeze has been nice as a one of, its a trick that can beat bomberman in one shot, counters all the disadvantage tutors and bomb-saving brainstorms. It also allows for an alternative means of victory during certain senarios.
NO RUG
Team America
U/W Stoneblade
Zoo
No FOW bant
Modern:
In testing
Dredge decks and GAT have virtually no cards in common and are trying for entirely different roles in the game, so I don't think they would work well together.
A single Tendrils MD would be nice too. Coupled with a Dryad swing or two, it's almost always GG.
As for the rest of the deck I would much rather have a 4 Duress, 2 Mana Drain configuration in the current metagame. The 1 Bayou seems wrong, I would cut it for another basic Island.
@ Glix: what's with the inclusion of the Drains? Also, Imperial Seal has been a welcome inclusion.
An open challenge to all salvation posters: Come play me at fnm at Toys From the Attic in Somersworth New Hampshire, the name is Chris Laskey and if you dare face the kithkin/red deck wins onslaught.
I have disliked seal. It's a sorcery, thats about the only reason. Its just not as versitile, and I'd rather have a drain or something. Adding drains in that slot allows you to have a higher quantity of quality rather than filler.
Regardless, Drain is a solid inclusion. I know this from testing, and I know this because if you look at that decks that top 8 recently, the majority of gushbond decks are using drain. That gives me both empirical and tangible proof.
Free mana is always relevant.
if the free mana/countering is not usefull enough for you, it can always be pitched to MisD or FoW, or even brainstormed back on top leaving something else in your hand in its place. All statements questioning Drain's inclusion are based on conjecture and not actual testing. play it and know - or read tourney reports with it in the top8 decklists.
As for unpowd - agreed it will be far less consistent and not allow for extremely broken turns and explosion starts, but it could still be decent. could be is the key - depends ultimately on 2 things: your level of play skill and worthwhile card subs.
Additionally playing dredge cards in this deck would be, well, bad. I won't flame or berate your question as it infers a lack of experience with the deck and the format as a whole. Dredge decks play GY cards [see icchorid], non-dredge decks play GY hate [see leyline + yixlid] and never the tween shall meet.
decks:
EDH - Riku, Xiahou, Konda, Azusa
modern - Past in Flames, Onmi-show
vintage - Drains, Oath
coup de grace:
Seems like
- Library of Alexandria [Due to it not being an Island]
- Leyline of the Void [From the board, being replaced by Yixlid Jailer]
+ Ponder
+ Thoughtseize [In some cases replacing Duress]
Any other changes in this deck that I'm not seeing? I don't have mine together right now, but there is supposed to be a tourny nearby soon, and I'd like to have an updated list for it.
Also, what does everyone think about Energy Flux in the board? Overcosted or worth it?
The deck as a whole has restructured itself slightly to this basic concept:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demoinic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
I don't think anyone is going to argue with me about these.
1 Fastbond
4 Gush
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
This 18 card base offers a powerful, yet extremely consistent and resilient draw engine. Discluding a ponder is an option if you are really stretching for room, but I wouldn't really recommend it. Maybe replacing one with a repeal, but ponder is just so good in this deck, I really want to have four.
4 Duress
You want to stay around 12 total protection cards. the 4 Force are auto-includes, and typically duress > thoughtseize, but if you want more than 4 duress start adding seizes. Seizes are also nice sb cards, and I find them to essentially be the non-splash replacement for blasts in control matchups. The more GaT/etc in the room, the more mis-ds you want. The more stax, the more drains. I would argue that beyond the 4 force/4 duress there really isn't a constant, but I like having misdirections in this kind of deck, so I would try and include at least 2 most of the time.
These slots, despite the name, are highly variable. You are usually going to want one of either tog or warrens, at least, as these will provide you with a sort of "gaurenteed" power win that can evade hate for the most part. Dryads are usually more objectivly powerful, however in a stax meta or one that is going to hate your draw engine, goyf is going to be better in the main. If you don't run goyf main, you should run it sb as it is a great card to bring in against decks like stax.
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
This is a pretty standard mana base. You can also splash red, usually removing an island or a tropical for a maindeck volc or two. I would not usually recommend going below 2 islands though, you need them in the stax matchup. You may also add extra lands in a more hate oriented field, this may be advantageous.
1 Cunning Wish
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire/Ice
1 Repeal
The rest of your deck, which should be around twoish cards, can be devoted towards "tech". Be advised, don't start pulling core componants for hate, the draw engine, if left alone, will be far better than having 4 maindeck rebs in the mirror. That left alone, I would highly recommend devoting one of these towards Echoing Truth. Its a catch-all solution and its scrollable, making it very viable. The other slot I would recommend Berserk. Now, you can play wish for berserk, but maindeck berserk, in my testing, has proven itself much stronger. It can be removal, and without 2U tagged on you can slip it under spheres against stax. Its also opens up valuable sideboard space.
The sideboard should be constructed along these lines, imho:
3 Goyfs: A catch all monstrosity that comes in, puts pressure on stax early and hard, beats fishy things in the skull, and does other goyf shenanigans for the low, low price of 1G (and 40 bucks ;)). Skip this if you run it main, but you want access to it.
3ish removal: I like things like clasm and ee in these slots, allthough spot removal like smother is also very strong. You don't want to really overload your sb with them, but you want access to them.
0-2 anti control/combo: You don't really need them that much, but if you feel more comoftable with an extra blast or two in your sb, so be it. Remember though, your deck runs very smoth maindeck, you don't want to dilute it too much.
4-5 anti-ichorid: Don't come unprepared, you might fight it, don't get caught with your thumb up your ass. I like a mixture of jailers, needles, and crypts. Leylines also work.
Everything Else: Anti Stax. Stax is mean. Stax plays like infintie spheres and makes your gushes cost like 10 mana. I like 4 flux for starters. Flux makes stax cry. You drop flux and you're in a great position. I also like having a single recall or something to suplement my fluxeses. Things like oxidize are also nice. Feel free to ad lib here.
If you have extra room, through in some techy things or something, maybe another seize or blast or whatever.