Was faced with this choice earlier in P1P2 in an 8-4. I first-picked Merciless Eviction, passing a Kingpin's Pet as the only standout Orzhov card.
There were no other notable cards in the pack for me at this stage. I thought for a few moments and went with the Knight. Edict is very good but I tend to see several of those across 3 packs, and I'd hate to pass the Knight after passing the Pet and unwittingly trick my neighbors into thinking Orzhov was open. The Edict could seem like an early signal as well of course, but it's unavoidable in either case. I eventually got an Edict for my deck, for what it's worth.
It's more that people always overvalue removal. Really, if they make a card ":symb:: Sorcery: As an additional cost, get F'd in the A. Destroy target creature." people will say "removal is removal" and first-pick it.
I agree with your pick. Knight is a great card for the Orzhov deck, the combination of Vigilance, Extort and a big butt is pretty much everything that deck wants, and being an uncommon it's probably the only time you'll see it.
Angelic Edict is certainly playable and removal is removal, but at 5 mana it's not a top pick IMHO. With it being a common, I always seem to end up with a couple without much effort.
Angelic Edict is just not a very good card in general. A five mana sorcery is too slow in such a tempo-based format.
Disagree with you, because both white guilds want it badly. By the time Boros actually needs this card, its usually at 5 mana and needs to push through those final points. Orzhov ALWAYS wants this. That being said, knight is very good for both guilds too, and I would pick it just based on uncommon vs. common that early in the draft, the edict being common, you *should* see it again.
I like Edict, but it's not highly picked and twos plenty. Take the knight.
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You first picked removal. You don't need to second pick it too.
I'd certainly take the Knight here, but simply because it's the better card. Going back-to-back on removal is not only acceptable, but highly recommended.
You first picked removal. You don't need to second pick it too. You made the right call for sure.
As Orzhov you will likely end up with plenty of black removal coming your way later. Solid creatures are far more sparse.
I don't think it's anything about Angelic Edict being removal, but simply about the knight being the better card in both guilds it could conceivably be played in.
Don't agree that Edict is a bad card, but don't agree that it's great either.
Everyone is saying Knight, which is correct. In fact, its such a large power level difference that I'd take Knight over Edict every single time without question.
Yeah, agreed. 5 mana unconditional removal is nice but the Knight is so efficient in a format defined by bears that he can almost perform as removal himself. Extort is delicious gravy on top of it all.
Hey, since this question has been definitively answered, how about another A vs B? Happened to a friend of mine this weekend in an 8-4 I observed on gotomeeting. P1P1 Prime Speaker Zegana - slam it. I'm not entirely sure if the pick in question was then P1P2 or P1P3, but we were soon presented with Elusive Krasis VS Simic Charm. My gut said go for the Charm but my buddies wanted the Krasis so that was the pick. I did see merit in him, and he did win us a couple matches with Hands of Binding and Last Thoughts. Sadly we lost the second match to horrible land flooding, nothing the Charm could have solved. Do you think it was the right pick?
Krasis for me as well. 3 power flyer who evolves nearly all of your guys on top of it? Awesome. Oh and he has Trample for those tasty Blood Rush/Token plays. Heck it's even a decent Zegana creature if you don't have a snapjaw or something for her to come in on. Cipher is just an extra cherry on top. Maybe if this was the third Kasis I'd take the Charm over it but for the first of either it's gotta be the creature for me.
Nim, it was Elusive Krasis, the 0/3 unblockable evolve dude.
Looking back on it, I agree that Krasis was probably the right pick when we were still fishing for good creatures. Maybe if we were in P2 or P3 and already had a good creature base I'd go with the Charm if we were short on tricks/removal.
I'd probably pick the Charm, and almost certainly be wrong in doing so.
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Ah sorry, for some reason the Drakewing was on my mind. Still frankly I would be even happier to have it in that case. Huge toughness (high enough to evolve pretty much any of your creatures) to block any early attackers and an unblockable attacker to finish them off? Awesome.
I'd probably pick the Charm, and almost certainly be wrong in doing so.
My first impulse is to pick the Charm too, mainly because Simic has next to zero removal. The bounce target creature ability can straight up save my life. Also, it's nice to have the giant growth and hexproof ability as well.
The Krasis is so good at what it does this makes it a very close call, though. You can pick up a number of wall-like creatures that evolve your dudes later in the draft, but none of them come down as early as turn three. You can also grab evasive guys like Keymaster Rogue and the 3/1 flying trampler later in the draft, even though they are not as good as Krasis.
My first impulse is to pick the Charm too, mainly because Simic has next to zero removal. The bounce target creature ability can straight up save my life. Also, it's nice to have the giant growth and hexproof ability as well.
The Krasis is so good at what it does this makes it a very close call, though. You can pick up a number of wall-like creatures that evolve your dudes later in the draft, but none of them come down as early as turn three. You can also grab evasive guys like Keymaster Rogue and the 3/1 flying trampler later in the draft, even though they are not as good as Krasis.
First off, Simic doesn't have zero removal. You can pick Pit Fight as easily as any other color combo :p. Secondly, the Krasis is an annoying creature to get rid of. It starts out as an 0/4, making it fairly difficult to get rid of with damaged based removal at the time it comes out early in the game. Then once it evolves even once, it becomes even more difficult to remove. It also becomes a good target for a Hands of Bindng at that point.
First off, Simic doesn't have zero removal. You can pick Pit Fight as easily as any other color combo :p.
My post did not say it had zero removal. It said it had "next to" zero removal. I was implying that it still had pit fight . . . but pit fight is pretty much it. Also, since at least two other guilds also want pit fight, it goes very, very early. Because of this, I would take removal much higher in Simic than in other colors because its much less likely to wheel.
Out of all five guilds, Simic has by far the fewest removal spells.
Secondly, the Krasis is an annoying creature to get rid of. It starts out as an 0/4, making it fairly difficult to get rid of with damaged based removal at the time it comes out early in the game. Then once it evolves even once, it becomes even more difficult to remove. It also becomes a good target for a Hands of Bindng at that point.
Krasis is indeed a great card, because it is a great defender in the early game, and a great win con in the late game. However, you can still get walls and evasive creatures in Simic much more frequently than you can get removal.
My post did not say it had zero removal. It said it had "next to" zero removal. I was implying that it still had pit fight . . . but pit fight is pretty much it. Also, since at least two other guilds also want pit fight, it goes very, very early. Because of this, I would take removal much higher in Simic than in other colors because its much less likely to wheel.
Out of all five guilds, Simic has by far the fewest removal spells.
Krasis is indeed a great card, because it is a great defender in the early game, and a great win con in the late game. However, you can still get walls and evasive creatures in Simic much more frequently than you can get removal.
Yes, Simic's removal options are its biggest issues. Splashing Red or Black, picking Pit Fight pick 1 or 2 or 3, or resorting on bounce/tap (Aetherize, Simic Charm, Hands of Binding) are absolutely vital otherwise. I've had more luck simply splashing Red, as Simic seems to have a lot of wiggle-room for playing a few gates.
My first impulse is to pick the Charm too, mainly because Simic has next to zero removal. The bounce target creature ability can straight up save my life. Also, it's nice to have the giant growth and hexproof ability as well.
This. The charm is solid for simic in all its modes without any help. The krasis is conditionally good - although admittedly it is also a strong card.
Unevolved it's an 0/4 for 3 which isn't unplayable at all (happily blocks 3 power all day which is great) and the only "condition" needed to evolve it is playing a guy with some amount of power (even just 1 will evolve it the first time. Evolving it twice should be almost a given). At that point it's an unblockable attacker which takes cipher well and is all but impossible to remove via damage based removal. I consider that pretty close to unconditionally good as far as creatures go.
At the same time Simic Charm is certainly conditional. If we're going to say playing creatures is conditional then having creatures in play is just as conditional which means 2 of the functions of Simic Charm unusable (and that's beyond the situations where the effects just are not relevant) and the last function (bounce) is a mechanic that can be actively bad in this set (thanks extort, enter play triggers, denizens, and so on).
Both are conditionally good, as are most cards in magic.
This. The charm is solid for simic in all its modes without any help. The krasis is conditionally good - although admittedly it is also a strong card.
How is the Krasis "conditionally" good? The turn it comes out, it blocks just about everything. After that, it can attack, or block just about anything if it has to.
Angelic Edict
Was faced with this choice earlier in P1P2 in an 8-4. I first-picked Merciless Eviction, passing a Kingpin's Pet as the only standout Orzhov card.
There were no other notable cards in the pack for me at this stage. I thought for a few moments and went with the Knight. Edict is very good but I tend to see several of those across 3 packs, and I'd hate to pass the Knight after passing the Pet and unwittingly trick my neighbors into thinking Orzhov was open. The Edict could seem like an early signal as well of course, but it's unavoidable in either case. I eventually got an Edict for my deck, for what it's worth.
It's a tough one IMO.
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Angelic Edict is certainly playable and removal is removal, but at 5 mana it's not a top pick IMHO. With it being a common, I always seem to end up with a couple without much effort.
As Orzhov you will likely end up with plenty of black removal coming your way later. Solid creatures are far more sparse.
Disagree with you, because both white guilds want it badly. By the time Boros actually needs this card, its usually at 5 mana and needs to push through those final points. Orzhov ALWAYS wants this. That being said, knight is very good for both guilds too, and I would pick it just based on uncommon vs. common that early in the draft, the edict being common, you *should* see it again.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
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I'd certainly take the Knight here, but simply because it's the better card. Going back-to-back on removal is not only acceptable, but highly recommended.
I don't think it's anything about Angelic Edict being removal, but simply about the knight being the better card in both guilds it could conceivably be played in.
Don't agree that Edict is a bad card, but don't agree that it's great either.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Hey, since this question has been definitively answered, how about another A vs B? Happened to a friend of mine this weekend in an 8-4 I observed on gotomeeting. P1P1 Prime Speaker Zegana - slam it. I'm not entirely sure if the pick in question was then P1P2 or P1P3, but we were soon presented with Elusive Krasis VS Simic Charm. My gut said go for the Charm but my buddies wanted the Krasis so that was the pick. I did see merit in him, and he did win us a couple matches with Hands of Binding and Last Thoughts. Sadly we lost the second match to horrible land flooding, nothing the Charm could have solved. Do you think it was the right pick?
It looks like the first question has been settled and I too would pick the Knight of Obligation. Every game I've thrown him down, he's been good.
Looking back on it, I agree that Krasis was probably the right pick when we were still fishing for good creatures. Maybe if we were in P2 or P3 and already had a good creature base I'd go with the Charm if we were short on tricks/removal.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
My first impulse is to pick the Charm too, mainly because Simic has next to zero removal. The bounce target creature ability can straight up save my life. Also, it's nice to have the giant growth and hexproof ability as well.
The Krasis is so good at what it does this makes it a very close call, though. You can pick up a number of wall-like creatures that evolve your dudes later in the draft, but none of them come down as early as turn three. You can also grab evasive guys like Keymaster Rogue and the 3/1 flying trampler later in the draft, even though they are not as good as Krasis.
First off, Simic doesn't have zero removal. You can pick Pit Fight as easily as any other color combo :p. Secondly, the Krasis is an annoying creature to get rid of. It starts out as an 0/4, making it fairly difficult to get rid of with damaged based removal at the time it comes out early in the game. Then once it evolves even once, it becomes even more difficult to remove. It also becomes a good target for a Hands of Bindng at that point.
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My post did not say it had zero removal. It said it had "next to" zero removal. I was implying that it still had pit fight . . . but pit fight is pretty much it. Also, since at least two other guilds also want pit fight, it goes very, very early. Because of this, I would take removal much higher in Simic than in other colors because its much less likely to wheel.
Out of all five guilds, Simic has by far the fewest removal spells.
Krasis is indeed a great card, because it is a great defender in the early game, and a great win con in the late game. However, you can still get walls and evasive creatures in Simic much more frequently than you can get removal.
Yes, Simic's removal options are its biggest issues. Splashing Red or Black, picking Pit Fight pick 1 or 2 or 3, or resorting on bounce/tap (Aetherize, Simic Charm, Hands of Binding) are absolutely vital otherwise. I've had more luck simply splashing Red, as Simic seems to have a lot of wiggle-room for playing a few gates.
This. The charm is solid for simic in all its modes without any help. The krasis is conditionally good - although admittedly it is also a strong card.
At the same time Simic Charm is certainly conditional. If we're going to say playing creatures is conditional then having creatures in play is just as conditional which means 2 of the functions of Simic Charm unusable (and that's beyond the situations where the effects just are not relevant) and the last function (bounce) is a mechanic that can be actively bad in this set (thanks extort, enter play triggers, denizens, and so on).
Both are conditionally good, as are most cards in magic.
How is the Krasis "conditionally" good? The turn it comes out, it blocks just about everything. After that, it can attack, or block just about anything if it has to.
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