you want control of the board... because odds are they run stigma lasher anyway and you aren't going to be able to finks or dawnglow or feudkiller or whatever life gain tech you packed unless you blow an early spout or maw on the bugger. a smart RDW player just sits behind his figures and single lasher until he has demigod mana, however. oversoul just doesn't seem like the answer to the red deck matchup. if I wasn't done with this block forever, I'd totally try and brainstorm.
Me and gerry T were talking on facebook and I was asking him for tech against the mirror. He suggested profane command in place of an Archon and a Shriekmaw. I took out a shriekmaw and put 1 in for the long mirror games, and it was really sick in testing. You generally get up to 18 lands in the mirror and it's such a sick rip. Kill (or get close to killing) your opponent and return mulldrifter or something. Even against aggro playing it for 3 and killing a dude and recurring finks is sick.
thoughts?
I also figured out in talking to him that the board is basically unchangable, but it is the stones anyway. I wouldn't change a card in it.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Well I went 3-2 drop. Lost round 1 to Sam Black who was playing Grave Games. He totally crushed me. The matchup is basically a bye for him.
I went 3-0 and then lost to manascrew/nutdraw by kithkin. :/
i'll attest too this. gravegames is definitely the worst matchup. quite impossible to win cuz of the crazy discard and kelpie card draw engine. i've played games wherein i've runed halo-ed ravens crime... it kept the game a little close but still far from winnable. our version uses the zack hill SB wherein we bring in biting tethers and if QnT has to bring in wispmares it dilutes the deck a little. i liked the new tech that some dude top8ed with in the US. he had 1 call the skybreaker. upon playing this matchup i catch myself with around 10 lands and no hand. while kelpie is still building up their hand. the threats they put down are slow beats anyway to you still have time to get your own beats. so with the skybreaker, when gravegames puts you in topdeck mode, instead of oona's gracing a topdeck land he was skybreaking instead. just tried it last night and it was pretty nice. gonna test it more today. ill post my list later cuz i gotta catch the bus. hehe. but i recommend cutting down a firespout and putting in another hallowed burial. cuz kithkins run burrnton main now. 3 shriekmaws instead of 2. and run 1 counterbore main as well as colossus. 26 lands is all you need really too.
played this in a PTQ qualifier to practice for our GP next week didnt fair well, but I gues most of my loses wer due to stupid play errors from me. (havent played in awhile + first time I played the deck) I went 4-2-2. I faced 3 fairy decks went 2 lose 1 draw with them, 1 mono black rogue, 1 rdw and wg aggro deck. I hope to fine tuen the deck more and get used to it as I really how the deck plays against most of the field.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
i'll attest too this. gravegames is definitely the worst matchup. quite impossible to win cuz of the crazy discard and kelpie card draw engine. i've played games wherein i've runed halo-ed ravens crime... it kept the game a little close but still far from winnable. our version uses the zack hill SB wherein we bring in biting tethers and if QnT has to bring in wispmares it dilutes the deck a little. i liked the new tech that some dude top8ed with in the US. he had 1 call the skybreaker. upon playing this matchup i catch myself with around 10 lands and no hand. while kelpie is still building up their hand. the threats they put down are slow beats anyway to you still have time to get your own beats. so with the skybreaker, when gravegames puts you in topdeck mode, instead of oona's gracing a topdeck land he was skybreaking instead. just tried it last night and it was pretty nice. gonna test it more today. ill post my list later cuz i gotta catch the bus. hehe. but i recommend cutting down a firespout and putting in another hallowed burial. cuz kithkins run burrnton main now. 3 shriekmaws instead of 2. and run 1 counterbore main as well as colossus. 26 lands is all you need really too.
I like your Ideas, but cant seem to put thiem into deck form, mind posting (or PMing) a list?
overall (not particular matchups) I think Counterbore could be a very Valuable tool. Like Chapin said, imagine counterboring a cryptic command or dimigod of revenge, sounds great to me. Hell, I think the card could be devistating in the mirror and other control matchups. I mean, even in the doran match, counterboring a Chameleon colossus and in the elementals matchup getting rid of a reveillark, those are some big plays.
Quote from PurE »
You just cut a shriekmaw or archon for the put a 5/5 into play thing.
8 mana sorceries = >:/ tho.
I wasn't just talking about that though, I was talking about the whole thing with CC and Counterbores.
personally, I'm gonna try to fit some counterbores into my SB.
I actually play 2 counterbore in my SB I just removed 1 runed halo and 1 wispermare, Im thinking counterbore would be a great card for the mirror and some other matchups, Im also wanting to add maybe a OOna in the board.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
i also tried profane command but i felt if i ran profane i should run fulminator mage along with it but then again gerry t brought up a good point that cloudthresher would then be uncastable. plus rune halo named on doran, cham col, raven crime, demigod, oona queen, mutavault really punishes the opponent.
counterbore is great in control MUs. like gravegames, mirror match or elementals. other than that is usefulness curve just drops to zilch. but i think it deserves 1 slot in the board. i really wanted this in the main though. yes its high casting but catching something ofa' it could be gamebreaking.
@mikey: why you running only 3 wispmares. fae is our worst matchup among all existing or teir 1 decks. i run the full set of mares and threshers. though my threshers are split 2-2 between the main and sb. how's the burrenton workin for ya? i think the deck doesn't have a prob with the rdw match up for it to take up 4 slots in your SB. finks is there to stem the early red onslaught. or are you worried about stigma lasher. i see you got 4 shriekmaws in there already to handle that though. i think you should sub out of the austere command for burials instead. gerry t put up an interesting food for thought. what hand would you keep given there are no mulligans. 5 lands, cryptic, burial. or 5 lands, cryptic, austere. the 1 extra cost really matters. cuz 4th turn tap all creatures then fifth you go burial. i used to run austere but i eventually saw what they were trying to get across. i was thinking of cutting the queen totally from deck but i found a slot for her in the board for the mirror cuz there seems to be a surge of 5c QnT in my area. also, i think you hit it right on the nail about negate.
i dont like running 4 burials just for the fact that austere command vs kithkin and doran can leave your creatures alive as well
i like oona, but she cant do anything to colossus and she costs 6, so colossus was better to me..., i want to run 4 wispmare and the 4th thresher, but my sideboard spots are so damn tight, and IMO, 4 forge-tender are the only way i do beat rdw, and yes, i am worried about stigma lasher
i play 2 negate in the board instead of profane, i figured that profane is good, but it should never resolve in the mirror... and its not gonna do much in any matchup as where negate makes my rdw matchup better
the problem i have with runed halo, is that although it seems like its easy to play with, i dont trust myself with it, which is why i play with forge-tenders... since after board vs faeries i run 2 negate and 3 broken ambitions along side wispmare
on the play it shouldn't be hard to wispmare or counter a blossom, or on the draw go... wispmare on blossom, and if they play a second one, they cant block colossus, and i have mannequins and between 3 wispmare, my counter magic, 3 colossus and 3 cloudthresher, the 4th didn't seem too necessary
the main reason i run 3 is cause i run 3 colossus, if i were to take out a colossus i would add the 4th wispmare
im still debating on -1 crib swap for the 3rd negate, but 2 seems like enough, there just aren't enough spots:xd:
yeah i can respect your decision not to run rune halos cuz you're not comfortable with them. think i'd go for the third negate. the austeres and burials can handle any bothersome monster.
but i still think you gotta find slots for the 4th wispmare and 4th cloudthresher. really don't like em lil flying pests. haha
idk what too do, my deck seems fine with 2 archon, 2 mannequin, 3 cloudthresher and 3 wispmare vs faeries
but idk... maybe i cut the 2 archons, maindeck 2 colossus and then +1 negate and +1 cloudthresher too the board?
the deck i've been testing (bear in mind real life testing) has played three games pre board against this deck (without lashers) and the deck is undefeated. and in one of those games my opponent (who won W.V. States the past two years, just to prove he is competent, and I trust him as a playtest partner) dropped two finks and was at one point at 24 life and I still came out on top.
Im almost 100% sure that stigma lasher isn't needed.
what im saying is Im undefeated as the RDW player against Toast in the games I've played. I also am saying I dont play Stigma lasher or Boggart ram-gang, they're too slow to have game against toast.
Also, in one of the games my opponent dropped two finks and at one point was at 24 and I still won.
hmm quite odd though cuz i've never had problems with rdw. rdw was rampant in my area before gp denver. after gp denver, rdw decks were dropping off tournaments like flies inhaling pesticide after they started facing several 5c qnt.
seen several different builds of rdw but the best build i think is the one with the stigma lasher in the side. like mundy mentioned, the real power of rdw is boggart ram gang and ahsenmoor gouger. drawing those things in succession is such a beating whether the qnt player drew and played finks or not. ram gang coming down after a firespout... or either coming down after burial is just demoralizing.
but like i said, upon experience i havent had much probs against red deck wins. i guess maybe cuz my list is a much more control-ish list than most qnt decks. or maybe i'm just getting good draws against rdw. i mean rune halo alone is backbreaking against rdw.
Hey, could you send me a list of your rdw too someguy, I'm planning on playing Quick n' Toast but I'd like to see the list of your deck that hasn't lost,
Thanks
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what im saying is Im undefeated as the RDW player against Toast in the games I've played. I also am saying I dont play Stigma lasher or Boggart ram-gang, they're too slow to have game against toast.
Also, in one of the games my opponent dropped two finks and at one point was at 24 and I still won.
Ram Gang is too slow? How do you figure? I understand the argument to play Ashenmoor Gouger over him in the 3 drop slot because Gouger dodges Nameless, Lash Out, and Firespout, but how is 6 Damage on turn 4 too slow? How is trading 1 for 1 with a Kitchen Finks bad?
In any case, I think RDW has no bad matchups when played by a competent pilot, and I'd imagine Someguy is competent if he is playtesting with who he says he is. The thing is, most RDW players that you will encounter at a PTQ suck, and play the deck because they cannot play a more complex deck properly. Make sense? I wouldn't worry about the matchup too much..
Hmm... This is the 5c Toast Thread, maybe I should make some relevant comment regarding that deck...
How do you guys feel about Call the Skybreaker? I have one main and an Oona side for the mirror match, but I might switch their places or drop one altogether. Turning my late game land draws into Dragons really seems appealing, I must say.
Has anyone tested it yet? Is there some drawback that I'm not seeing?
Ram Gang is too slow? How do you figure? I understand the argument to play Ashenmoor Gouger over him in the 3 drop slot because Gouger dodges Nameless, Lash Out, and Firespout, but how is 6 Damage on turn 4 too slow? How is trading 1 for 1 with a Kitchen Finks bad?
In any case, I think RDW has no bad matchups when played by a competent pilot, and I'd imagine Someguy is competent if he is playtesting with who he says he is. The thing is, most RDW players that you will encounter at a PTQ suck, and play the deck because they cannot play a more complex deck properly. Make sense? I wouldn't worry about the matchup too much..
Hmm... This is the 5c Toast Thread, maybe I should make some relevant comment regarding that deck...
How do you guys feel about Call the Skybreaker? I have one main and an Oona side for the mirror match, but I might switch their places or drop one altogether. Turning my late game land draws into Dragons really seems appealing, I must say.
Has anyone tested it yet? Is there some drawback that I'm not seeing?
maybe I should rephrase my comment, its not to slow, just IMHO theres much better ways of dealing with finks.
and your also right about most RDW pilots...this is why I personally think I have an edge...
but as far as toast goes w/ CtS, I think MD I would much rather Cycle lands away against most decks, so if I had to choose I would run Oonas Grace MD, but if you expect alot of the mirror or other forms of control, I would atleast SB CtS (as a one of).
but as far as toast goes w/ CtS, I think MD I would much rather Cycle lands away against most decks, so if I had to choose I would run Oonas Grace MD, but if you expect alot of the mirror or other forms of control, I would atleast SB CtS (as a one of).
I have one Oona's Grace main already, the idea would be to Oona's Grace into the CtS and then win from there.
vs the mirror, i switch a shriekmaw for a cloudthresher, i side out my 6 wraths for 1 crib swap, 2 primal command, and 3 negate
while your tapping out for CTB, i can counter it and attack you for 7, or attack you with a mulldrifter and a finks, or i can attack you with a colossus for 3 turns, and lets say
i have a cloudthresher and a kitchen finks, lets say you take 10 and go down to 5, i can then tap ur guys down, negate your call so im up a creature while your doing it...
there are scenarios where its actually good, like if you have blockers to by it time, not to mention my 1 oona with untapped mana is better than your call, if im up on colossus and cloudthreshers... i can just counter your call every time and grind you down...
i guess there are scenario's that are more likley to happen where the call is good, like if we're on a standstill and you have the call advantage... but idk... i would take out a negate from my sideboard, but im not sure if 2 negate is really that good...
i run crib swap where runed halo is which helps against the mirror match and vs graves games... i dont have runed halo's which is why i run it... ill probably take out 1 of the 3 negates in my sideboard for a call to the skybreaker if i feel 2 negates is fine...
what does everyone think about only 2 negates? i feel if i take out the 1 negate im making my mono red matchup alot worse... the "1 card makes all the difference", thing...
You're argument is so flawed it's not even funny. You're basically saying "If I have 10 power worth of creatures and all you have is a CtS then you lose." Well, duh... But that's not going to happen. I play creatures to. I play counters to. You are never going to have more counters than I have land. I don't know how you can even make that argument. Oh, did I mention that I have Runed Halo called on your Oona and Cloudthresher? What outs do you have to that? Cryptic Command isn't going to resolve.
I'd like to hear your opinion, as long as what you say makes sense...
mikey k159, it seems that you have lost a lot of focus while tuning your deck. All your arguments sound like "Well, maybe this..." or "I don't know, is this right?" How about a bit of concrete data to make things simpler.
You run Shriekmaws for 3 reasons.
1: It's good against Burrenton Forge-Tender so your Firespouts are better.
2: It's a really good Makeshift Manequin target, and your deck wants to run Manequin because of its instant-speed options and synergy with shriekmaw and other evoke creatures.
3: It's yet another removal spell in your deck, and also an evasive win condition. Your deck virtually has more business because of the options it presents in both the answers and random win condition departments.
So if you don't care about Burrenton Forge-Tender that much, then you don't need 3 Shriekmaws. If you don't feel like you are manequinning Shriekmaw often enough for it to count, then you don't need 3 of them. If you feel like you don't want the options of Shriekmaw but would rather run something instant-speed at 2 mana, then you want Inversion instead. But seriously, dude, make your decisions with your head. Don't just wander around with ideas, whether you playtest or not there are reasons why specific cards are run in your deck, and there are reasons for the number of each card choice you run, too.
Arc-Slogger: Nobody is ever going to have enough counters to stop you from making a buttload of tokens with Call the Skybreaker in the late game. It honestly looks like the perfect finisher to me, on paper and in practicallity. I still like Oona, too, but it can't hurt to run both for multiple layers of inevitability.
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thoughts?
I also figured out in talking to him that the board is basically unchangable, but it is the stones anyway. I wouldn't change a card in it.
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I went 3-0 and then lost to manascrew/nutdraw by kithkin. :/
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i'll attest too this. gravegames is definitely the worst matchup. quite impossible to win cuz of the crazy discard and kelpie card draw engine. i've played games wherein i've runed halo-ed ravens crime... it kept the game a little close but still far from winnable. our version uses the zack hill SB wherein we bring in biting tethers and if QnT has to bring in wispmares it dilutes the deck a little. i liked the new tech that some dude top8ed with in the US. he had 1 call the skybreaker. upon playing this matchup i catch myself with around 10 lands and no hand. while kelpie is still building up their hand. the threats they put down are slow beats anyway to you still have time to get your own beats. so with the skybreaker, when gravegames puts you in topdeck mode, instead of oona's gracing a topdeck land he was skybreaking instead. just tried it last night and it was pretty nice. gonna test it more today. ill post my list later cuz i gotta catch the bus. hehe. but i recommend cutting down a firespout and putting in another hallowed burial. cuz kithkins run burrnton main now. 3 shriekmaws instead of 2. and run 1 counterbore main as well as colossus. 26 lands is all you need really too.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
I like your Ideas, but cant seem to put thiem into deck form, mind posting (or PMing) a list?
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8 mana sorceries = >:/ tho.
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I wasn't just talking about that though, I was talking about the whole thing with CC and Counterbores.
personally, I'm gonna try to fit some counterbores into my SB.
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counterbore is great in control MUs. like gravegames, mirror match or elementals. other than that is usefulness curve just drops to zilch. but i think it deserves 1 slot in the board. i really wanted this in the main though. yes its high casting but catching something ofa' it could be gamebreaking.
@mikey: why you running only 3 wispmares. fae is our worst matchup among all existing or teir 1 decks. i run the full set of mares and threshers. though my threshers are split 2-2 between the main and sb. how's the burrenton workin for ya? i think the deck doesn't have a prob with the rdw match up for it to take up 4 slots in your SB. finks is there to stem the early red onslaught. or are you worried about stigma lasher. i see you got 4 shriekmaws in there already to handle that though. i think you should sub out of the austere command for burials instead. gerry t put up an interesting food for thought. what hand would you keep given there are no mulligans. 5 lands, cryptic, burial. or 5 lands, cryptic, austere. the 1 extra cost really matters. cuz 4th turn tap all creatures then fifth you go burial. i used to run austere but i eventually saw what they were trying to get across. i was thinking of cutting the queen totally from deck but i found a slot for her in the board for the mirror cuz there seems to be a surge of 5c QnT in my area. also, i think you hit it right on the nail about negate.
yeah i can respect your decision not to run rune halos cuz you're not comfortable with them. think i'd go for the third negate. the austeres and burials can handle any bothersome monster.
but i still think you gotta find slots for the 4th wispmare and 4th cloudthresher. really don't like em lil flying pests. haha
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the deck i've been testing (bear in mind real life testing) has played three games pre board against this deck (without lashers) and the deck is undefeated. and in one of those games my opponent (who won W.V. States the past two years, just to prove he is competent, and I trust him as a playtest partner) dropped two finks and was at one point at 24 life and I still came out on top.
Im almost 100% sure that stigma lasher isn't needed.
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what im saying is Im undefeated as the RDW player against Toast in the games I've played. I also am saying I dont play Stigma lasher or Boggart ram-gang, they're too slow to have game against toast.
Also, in one of the games my opponent dropped two finks and at one point was at 24 and I still won.
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seen several different builds of rdw but the best build i think is the one with the stigma lasher in the side. like mundy mentioned, the real power of rdw is boggart ram gang and ahsenmoor gouger. drawing those things in succession is such a beating whether the qnt player drew and played finks or not. ram gang coming down after a firespout... or either coming down after burial is just demoralizing.
but like i said, upon experience i havent had much probs against red deck wins. i guess maybe cuz my list is a much more control-ish list than most qnt decks. or maybe i'm just getting good draws against rdw. i mean rune halo alone is backbreaking against rdw.
sent you a PM...
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Ram Gang is too slow? How do you figure? I understand the argument to play Ashenmoor Gouger over him in the 3 drop slot because Gouger dodges Nameless, Lash Out, and Firespout, but how is 6 Damage on turn 4 too slow? How is trading 1 for 1 with a Kitchen Finks bad?
In any case, I think RDW has no bad matchups when played by a competent pilot, and I'd imagine Someguy is competent if he is playtesting with who he says he is. The thing is, most RDW players that you will encounter at a PTQ suck, and play the deck because they cannot play a more complex deck properly. Make sense? I wouldn't worry about the matchup too much..
Hmm... This is the 5c Toast Thread, maybe I should make some relevant comment regarding that deck...
How do you guys feel about Call the Skybreaker? I have one main and an Oona side for the mirror match, but I might switch their places or drop one altogether. Turning my late game land draws into Dragons really seems appealing, I must say.
Has anyone tested it yet? Is there some drawback that I'm not seeing?
maybe I should rephrase my comment, its not to slow, just IMHO theres much better ways of dealing with finks.
and your also right about most RDW pilots...this is why I personally think I have an edge...
but as far as toast goes w/ CtS, I think MD I would much rather Cycle lands away against most decks, so if I had to choose I would run Oonas Grace MD, but if you expect alot of the mirror or other forms of control, I would atleast SB CtS (as a one of).
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I have one Oona's Grace main already, the idea would be to Oona's Grace into the CtS and then win from there.
4x Flooded Grove
4x Mystic Gate
1x Cascade Bluffs
4x Vivid Meadow
4x Vivid Creek
3x Vivid Grove
2x Island
4x Mulldrifter
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Cloudthresher
2x Shriekmaw
2x Archon of Justice
4x Cryptic Command
3x Broken Ambitions
2x Makeshift Mannequin
2x Runed Halo
2x Hallowed Burial
1x Oona's Grace
1x Call the Skybreaker
4x Wispmare
3x Plumeveil
2x Runed Halo
2x Hallowed Burial
2x Shriekmaw
1x Cloudthresher
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae
You're argument is so flawed it's not even funny. You're basically saying "If I have 10 power worth of creatures and all you have is a CtS then you lose." Well, duh... But that's not going to happen. I play creatures to. I play counters to. You are never going to have more counters than I have land. I don't know how you can even make that argument. Oh, did I mention that I have Runed Halo called on your Oona and Cloudthresher? What outs do you have to that? Cryptic Command isn't going to resolve.
I'd like to hear your opinion, as long as what you say makes sense...
You run Shriekmaws for 3 reasons.
1: It's good against Burrenton Forge-Tender so your Firespouts are better.
2: It's a really good Makeshift Manequin target, and your deck wants to run Manequin because of its instant-speed options and synergy with shriekmaw and other evoke creatures.
3: It's yet another removal spell in your deck, and also an evasive win condition. Your deck virtually has more business because of the options it presents in both the answers and random win condition departments.
So if you don't care about Burrenton Forge-Tender that much, then you don't need 3 Shriekmaws. If you don't feel like you are manequinning Shriekmaw often enough for it to count, then you don't need 3 of them. If you feel like you don't want the options of Shriekmaw but would rather run something instant-speed at 2 mana, then you want Inversion instead. But seriously, dude, make your decisions with your head. Don't just wander around with ideas, whether you playtest or not there are reasons why specific cards are run in your deck, and there are reasons for the number of each card choice you run, too.
Arc-Slogger: Nobody is ever going to have enough counters to stop you from making a buttload of tokens with Call the Skybreaker in the late game. It honestly looks like the perfect finisher to me, on paper and in practicallity. I still like Oona, too, but it can't hurt to run both for multiple layers of inevitability.