You're right, you haven't been given an example of begin wrong because I started out right.
Now you're just trolling.
Yeah, definitely trolling.
Not trolling. I
ve been doing some testing with the version of the deck i posted a few days ago. Since then i have droped Mogg and included Figure(as a 4 of). Even though figure is somewhat awkward in the deck Mogg was sucking. As far as tattermunge(playing 3 of) goes ive been very happy with him on the draw he almost always gets in for atleast 2 but on the play hes been crazy against alot of decks often getting in for 6 or more. He is definately better then playing burst or shard volley. Goblin guide is the only creature felt is stronger then him.(figure is in certain MU's)
With that said white is looking really strong and has been wrecking my day. Leyline of sanctity pretty much wins the game by its self when its gets cheated into play agains the burn heavy versions of the deck. I feel that overall "sligh" is not going to be the gameplan for Mono-red.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
ve been doing some testing with the version of the deck i posted a few days ago. Since then i have droped Mogg and included Figure(as a 4 of). Even though figure is somewhat awkward in the deck Mogg was sucking. As far as tattermunge(playing 3 of) goes ive been very happy with him on the draw he almost always gets in for atleast 2 but on the play hes been crazy against alot of decks often getting in for 6 or more. He is definately better then playing burst or shard volley. Goblin guide is the only creature felt is stronger then him.(figure is in certain MU's)
With that said white is looking really strong and has been wrecking my day. Leyline of sanctity pretty much wins the game by its self when its gets cheated into play agains the burn heavy versions of the deck. I feel that overall "sligh" is not going to be the gameplan for Mono-red.
Oh, okay, you feel that way. That makes it correct.
So you're losing to a card that shouldn't see any play because it doesn't do anything, while the creature you shouldn't be running is winning you games?
So you're losing to a card that shouldn't see any play because it doesn't do anything, while the creature you shouldn't be running is winning you games?
The leyline is a potiental SB card choice. Depends on the meta though. If red decks are doing well then why not sb it? Leyline is a great card against burn so it may be in the 75. However I have noticed that in WW builds, Kithkin, knights, soldiers, etc that Harm's way is performing better and can in some cases be mained. Control, I like leyline though.
I know yall don't agree with it tattermunge is a sligh card. A few should MAYBE go in every build. The definition of sligh, as it was played by sligh, is to play a few guys and then burn creatures out of the way then finish with burn to the face. With that being said the card that looks like it does not belong most in a sligh deck by definition is the Keldon. However it may be powerful enough to bend the rules slightly.
Tattermunge must attack every turn. In a deck that has to attack every turn. That's not really much of a draw back. Yeah you may loose it mid game. Yeah you will loose it late game. Sligh only cares about the early game though. Munge is perfect for that spot. Jackal Pup was played in the early sligh. I lost some games, though not many because I ran pup. It was a sacrifice I had to make. (sligh on sligh sometimes called for a Fireblast to a pup) I would have much rather had munge in that spot.
Someone had a post saying that Elite Vanguard is better then Tattermunge. That is simply not so. You can't cast Vanguard in a mono red deck, so it's obviously not better in that spot. Sorry for pointing that out but to be strickly better then it has to have a simular casting cost. If you are playing a boros sligh deck then yeah Elite vanguard is the better choice.
BB shouldn't be a problem for you. If a self damaging source is a decks best out against you, and your a sligh deck, then you wouldn't worry to much about that matchup. I'm much more worried about V fallout then almost any other card and 3-4 are in my board for the mirror, and hey why not, fae can have them to.
Test Ember Hauler. It's playing out wonderfully in some games and not so great in others. But it's role is not sb materal so to me it's either MB or no place.
Sulfur Elemental is also up for testing. It doesn't have the power of other 3 drops but it's key in some matchups. I for one like to have some answers main deck for potiental mad matchups. Even better if they are great against alot of the field. It's wonderful if you expect to see counters, great for tokens, and awesome at surprise attackers. Let's put it this way. You have a few guys out and are holding a Flame Javelin and a Sulfur Elemental. If they play 1 guy then you can cast the elemental eot and on your turn blast the new blocker and reach more damage thru then if you had blasted the blocker eot. It'll take a few turns but the damage output is greater.
The 3 cc creature slot comes down to Ball Lightning, Hell's Thunder, or Sulfur. Up to you to decide that one. I do have to mention that Sulfur does help you burn out a Baneslayer Angel. Even in the exact scenario mentioned above and much others. Also it's interaction with Figure of Destiny is a bit ackward. It's good because your playing it and bad for your mirrior friend. When you play your elemental they loose there figure if they intended to pump it eot. Game 2 they will pump it for no reason just to have it burnt out, or sulfured in responce, and the resource loose is, well funny, but can be game changing. Making there Figure a 5/3 means it is boltable as well.
So you're losing to a card that shouldn't see any play because it doesn't do anything, while the creature you shouldn't be running is winning you games?
If you dont think Leyline of sanctity is going to see play you are very sadly mistaken. According to some dealers i know its the hardest m11 rare for them to keep in stock besides Fauna shaman. If a deck with 20+ burn spells is in the format the card will see play regardless of how misguided your views on it are.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
If you dont think Leyline of sanctity is going to see play you are very sadly mistaken. According to some dealers i know its the hardest rare for them to keep in stock besides Fauna shaman. If a deck with 20+ burn spells is in the format the card will see play regardless of how misguided your views on it are.
....
Do you see the potential in the White Leyline?
It devastates Oath, you can still target yourself with Ancestral Recall etc etc.
Wait, I'm in the Extended forum? Oh, what does that kill?
This deck, which a handful of people are going to play throughout the season.
Oh.
That card, just because it is going to see play in Legacy and Vintage, does not mean it will see play in Extended.
If you dont think Leyline of sanctity is going to see play you are very sadly mistaken. According to some dealers i know its the hardest m11 rare for them to keep in stock besides Fauna shaman. If a deck with 20+ burn spells is in the format the card will see play regardless of how misguided your views on it are.
Edit: M11 rare.
Which White deck is dominating again? Last I checked, not too many decks in Extended aggressively mulligan into Leylines because they can't play them and Lark isn't dominating currently. So I'm curious about which deck will play the Leyline as Ivory Mask wasn't even played when it was in the same format as the old Mirrodin Red Decks, which packed a decent amount of burn. Also, how can Leyline be in ready stock when M11 has only been out for about a week now? I'd have trouble having many copies of a new card before the set has settled in.
@megatog: I think you missed the point of the Elite Vanguard comparison.
Why doesn't Keldon Maurader belong in Sligh? Its a two mana Lava Axe at best and takes down a card at worst.
With enemy Figures in mind, Sulfur Elemental seems better. But given the last two ML events, it doesn't seem like the format has settled still.
Commons, sometimes I attack my opponent for one damage with Llanowar Elves, sometimes I attack them for 20. Why aren't you playing Llanowar Elves in this deck?
Joking aside, Tattermunge Maniac doesn't have the numbers to back it up historically in high-level events (every example I've used has been a top 8 at a PTQ or higher). The reason I am ignoring your "day 2 at X event" data but accepting t6 data from a MODO DE is because I'm not trying to build this deck off of 2008 lists when we have data from 2010 tournaments, even if they are smaller events... this is to get the ball rolling. I reference 2008 data to show historically, Tattermunge Maniac has not done well in high level events. If he does well at your local store or FNM, all the more power to you and your friend's UB Rogue Discard deck. If your idea of competitive is "not trying to win the event you're playing in" (or "trying to win the event held in a country where 8-Megrim.deck is also a t8 contender") then you hold a different standard of competition than the one that has readily been accepted in this section of the forum for years.
If you have a MODO account, sleeve up some Tattermunges and go to town. The deck is not very expensive, all things considered, so you can easily put your money where your mouth is considering you'd only have to win 3 before we put your list on display. I am also not kidding, we have very little tournament data to talk about with 2010 cards and numbers and figures, so if anything you'd be doing us a favor.
Which White deck is dominating again? Last I checked, not too many decks in Extended aggressively mulligan into Leylines because they can't play them and Lark isn't dominating currently. So I'm curious about which deck will play the Leyline as Ivory Mask wasn't even played when it was in the same format as the old Mirrodin Red Decks, which packed a decent amount of burn. Also, how can Leyline be in ready stock when M11 has only been out for about a week now? I'd have trouble having many copies of a new card before the set has settled in.
@megatog: I think you missed the point of the Elite Vanguard comparison.
Why doesn't Keldon Maurader belong in Sligh? Its a two mana Lava Axe at best and takes down a card at worst.
I never played ivory mask against big red either, but if mask was possibly free then just maybe, and it is a stretch, but if it were free then maybe it would have seen play. It would have been almost a mb slot considering tooth and nail and blue decks ran mindslaver and would have had uses against affinity, big red, and others as well.
I didnt miss the comparision at all. All Im saying is they look pretty much the same at first glance but they are completely different guys. Red guys are historically worse then white guys. The reason is because red has reach. With that being said and being true then the point is moot. Let me put it like this - You cant say a 2/1 in white with no draw backs doesn`t see play so a 2/1 in red with a draw back shouldn`t see play. Because they function differently. The white one is a tribal guy and the red one is a bash your face guy. Do you get it now? I know my first post didnt really break it down like that. I was already taking that into account and though every one else had as well and just went with the obvious.
About the keldon, I meant only by definition does it not belong. But because its so strong then we can bend the rules lol.
Sorry to double post but im on my dsi right now and it has restictions on how large a post can be. merge them if you care to please.
Back to keldons. The only creature that comes close to filling its spot is ember hauler. Its good at removing blockers, and can sneak thru for a hit sometimes. And can do its 2 damage like keldon but that requires resources, where keldon is free and going to happen. Hauler also makes the deck weaker to fallouts. That is already the scariest card for me to play against so I`ll pass.
Is everyone comming to that conclusion? I`m more worried about fallout then *** or doj. My reasoning is 4cc allows for an extra smash phase and puts them in burn range where a fallout on the play means only 2-6 creature damage, depending on the amount of guides. Bolt fallout is basically my best plan for the mirror. Often leaving me tied at 18 and i hold more creatures.
Now, as if ya`ll didnt think i`m crazy enough already. Has any one considered Orcish Librarian? I know most look at it at first glance and say what a crappy card. Squire is better! However in a deck where everything is of the same relative value then it allows you to set up your next draws. You don`t care what gets removed. Don`t even think twice about it, just stack burn and then eot activate again. It does push the deck towards red deck wins game plan, but is a hybrid really that bad? Red deck Sligh anyone? not even suggesting a set. Just one or two as a fallback. Plus if you have ever seen the look on someone`s face after you dominate a game with him...Priceless. Ive won fnm`s with a turn two librarian.
Maurader's stats make him an allstar right now. He can't be hit by Punishing Fire, meaning it requires a Lightning Bolt, the only creature he doesn't trade with is a large Tarmogoyf. Its the fact that he's a 3/3 that makes him really good in this format. Ember Hauler will probably be what people will switch to after October though, unless Red decks take a different path.
Fallout is the standard removal spell. It hits everything relevant and prevents decks like Faeries and BW tokens from dominating.
I remember Librarian being played. I also remember watching my opponent exile all his burn with it. Its really inconsistent and generally it only is good in the mirror when burn is the determining factor.
I never played ivory mask against big red either, but if mask was possibly free then just maybe, and it is a stretch, but if it were free then maybe it would have seen play. It would have been almost a mb slot considering tooth and nail and blue decks ran mindslaver and would have had uses against affinity, big red, and others as well.
I didnt miss the comparision at all. All Im saying is they look pretty much the same at first glance but they are completely different guys. Red guys are historically worse then white guys. The reason is because red has reach. With that being said and being true then the point is moot. Let me put it like this - You cant say a 2/1 in white with no draw backs doesn`t see play so a 2/1 in red with a draw back shouldn`t see play. Because they function differently. The white one is a tribal guy and the red one is a bash your face guy. Do you get it now? I know my first post didnt really break it down like that. I was already taking that into account and though every one else had as well and just went with the obvious.
About the keldon, I meant only by definition does it not belong. But because its so strong then we can bend the rules lol.
Sorry to double post but im on my dsi right now and it has restictions on how large a post can be. merge them if you care to please.
Back to keldons. The only creature that comes close to filling its spot is ember hauler. Its good at removing blockers, and can sneak thru for a hit sometimes. And can do its 2 damage like keldon but that requires resources, where keldon is free and going to happen. Hauler also makes the deck weaker to fallouts. That is already the scariest card for me to play against so I`ll pass.
Is everyone comming to that conclusion? I`m more worried about fallout then *** or doj. My reasoning is 4cc allows for an extra smash phase and puts them in burn range where a fallout on the play means only 2-6 creature damage, depending on the amount of guides. Bolt fallout is basically my best plan for the mirror. Often leaving me tied at 18 and i hold more creatures.
Now, as if ya`ll didnt think i`m crazy enough already. Has any one considered Orcish Librarian? I know most look at it at first glance and say what a crappy card. Squire is better! However in a deck where everything is of the same relative value then it allows you to set up your next draws. You don`t care what gets removed. Don`t even think twice about it, just stack burn and then eot activate again. It does push the deck towards red deck wins game plan, but is a hybrid really that bad? Red deck Sligh anyone? not even suggesting a set. Just one or two as a fallback. Plus if you have ever seen the look on someone`s face after you dominate a game with him...Priceless. Ive won fnm`s with a turn two librarian.
The librarian plan is actually so crazy it might work. I may run it just for the troll value. People are sure to underestimate it, and me by proxy, which may be a lethal mistake.
Can't hurt to try it i guess
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Throw enough goblins at any problem and it should go away. At the very least, there'll be fewer goblins."
The librarian plan is actually so crazy it might work. I may run it just for the troll value. People are sure to underestimate it, and me by proxy, which may be a lethal mistake.
Can't hurt to try it i guess
Its really only good in the mirror. I wouldn't want to maindeck it, but I might sideboard it if Dragon's Claw wasn't so good at winning the mirror.
Its really only good in the mirror. I wouldn't want to maindeck it, but I might sideboard it if Dragon's Claw wasn't so good at winning the mirror.
It would also function quite well against control. You stack what's left of your 8 and put lands to the back of them. Basically you only draw threats. That over time would put a strain on a counter base deck.
In the mirror it's good. It's also ok against alot of the jank that would be found as you can often find burn to get rid of any key creatures. Also if you are in a race then threat followed by threat over and over again can win it for you.
Orcish Librarian is seriously the topic of discussion?
haha, no its not. I just think it is too hilarious to not run. I wouldn't sleeve this up for an event anyway, but if i was I sure as hell wouldn't run the worlds worst librarian. However, for a DE or such, it is actually pretty neato
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Throw enough goblins at any problem and it should go away. At the very least, there'll be fewer goblins."
Look. If a guy like Patrick Chapmin, an pro that has his own book and is nicknamed "The Innovator", it has to be somewhat useful. I tried it on my own. I created my own decklist from all of the posts I have made.
There's no sideboard just yet becuase I need to work on a few details, but I will tell you one thing though. This deck is probably closer to being Sligh than the other decks I have found.
Kiln Fiend vs. Boggart Ram-gang
Boggart Ram-gamg used to give me headackes when it was in standard and the same can be put for this double Standard. I see this card as being WAY more versatile than Kiln just for two reasons. Boggart ram gang is incredible on its own. This card attacks immediately when it comes out and doesn't need to be supported by spells in had to be efficient. If you don't have any spells in hand, the card becomes a boat with only a sail in a doldrum. I would rather use my spells independently from my creatures, rather than in sync with my creatures.
Orchish Librarian: My reason to put this card is simple, pure raw draw power. I don't card if I lose cards from my deck. The deck that would make me hesistant to use this card against is mill, and I think I can out run mill. Another reasoning is that when I was making the deck I was having difficulty completely replcaing cards to fit this in. The reason I had trouble was because all of these cards helped me out one way or another. If the cards are so versatile in any situation, why concede with drawing land sometimes when it could be a spell that you could really need? Who cares if you lose four cards from you deck each time you use it, if you need gas you will do anything to get it.
I was able to test this card with a Panda deck. I had a slight idea of what this card deck, but never got any testing to it. I got a hell of a surprise when started swinging with a 9/9 Nip Gwyllion, I'm not even joking on that one. Luckly I never let that one happen again. It's amazing what two Divinity of Pride on a Nip Gwyllion can do. Luckly I was able to better with next game. Twice I was able to test the card late in the game. By the time I was playing this card, I either had enough land to play anything from my deck or Hellbent. I activated it getting Boggart Ram-gangs both times. Now who likes top decking a land compared to a Boggart Ram-Gang.
After Testing here's what I changed.
-1 Burst Lightning +1 Flame Javelin
After I was playing this deck. I realized why Volcanic Fall Out is in board. I changed to one more Flame Javelin because It did the service provided by the Burst Lighting with a cheaper cost. I think I'm going to put it another Orchis Librarian, but this card is a late game solution, not a win-con
Look. If a guy like Patrick Chapmin, an pro that has his own book and is nicknamed "The Innovator", it has to be somewhat useful. I tried it on my own. I created my own decklist from all of the posts I have made.
Get of Chapin's dick. No one said he was bad, but you're looking at a total of three decklists. And the one from Chapin is almost certainly a suggested deck, since it doesn't have an event listed. He probably posted a list in an article once. I'll even find it for you if you want proof.
There's no sideboard just yet becuase I need to work on a few details, but I will tell you one thing though. This deck is probably closer to being Sligh than the other decks I have found.
...
Kiln Fiend vs. Boggart Ram-gang
Boggart Ram-gamg used to give me headackes when it was in standard and the same can be put for this double Standard. I see this card as being WAY more versatile than Kiln just for two reasons. Boggart ram gang is incredible on its own. This card attacks immediately when it comes out and doesn't need to be supported by spells in had to be efficient. If you don't have any spells in hand, the card becomes a boat with only a sail in a doldrum. I would rather use my spells independently from my creatures, rather than in sync with my creatures.
Those cards seem completely different, what with the differing mana cost and kiln fiend not even being suggested by good players that I've seen.
Orchish Librarian: My reason to put this card is simple, pure raw draw power.
It doesn't draw you cards champ.
I don't card if I lose cards from my deck.
It is a random removal of cards from the top of your deck. What makes it an awful card is that you can't actually guarantee it'll smooth your draws or provide anything positive. Its a 2-drop that doesn't do anything in a deck that cannot afford to draw inconsistent cards that don't do anything.
Another reasoning is that when I was making the deck I was having difficulty completely replcaing cards to fit this in. The reason I had trouble was because all of these cards helped me out one way or another.
So you had trouble finding things to cut for your Orcish Librarians? Might that be because you were cutting good cards for bad ones? If you honestly thought this deserved a place it should have straight up been easy to cut a weaker card for it. :S
If the cards are so versatile in any situation, why concede with drawing land sometimes when it could be a spell that you could really need? Who cares if you lose four cards from you deck each time you use it, if you need gas you will do anything to get it.
Because you can't guarantee it will remove only lands. Or mostly lands. In fact, with as few lands as you have, the card has a statistically higher chance of removing spells.
I was able to test this card with a Panda deck. I had a slight idea of what this card deck, but never got any testing to it. I got a hell of a surprise when started swinging with a 9/9 Nip Gwyllion, I'm not even joking on that one.
And you were testing against a completely absurdly bad scrubby casual grade deck.
Luckly I never let that one happen again. It's amazing what two Divinity of Pride on a Nip Gwyllion can do. Luckly I was able to better with next game. Twice I was able to test the card late in the game. By the time I was playing this card, I either had enough land to play anything from my deck or Hellbent. I activated it getting Boggart Ram-gangs both times. Now who likes top decking a land compared to a Boggart Ram-Gang.
And managed to activate it twice, luckily not screwing yourself.
After Testing here's what I changed.
-1 Burst Lightning +1 Flame Javelin
After I was playing this deck. I realized why Volcanic Fall Out is in board. I changed to one more Flame Javelin because It did the service provided by the Burst Lighting with a cheaper cost. I think I'm going to put it another Orchis Librarian, but this card is a late game solution, not a win-con
Since you don't know how to play a red deck, let me help. If its late game, you probably lose. Sorry to break it to you.
If you want lategame cards, play Demigod red or something with actual lategame plans. Kargan Dragonlord is a strong card, Demigod of Revenge seems good in a more path light meta, and you've got the old option of siege gang commander. Adding more Orcish librarians is probably the worst thing you could do if you're trying to win.
I'm wondering how good smoldering spires is? Has anyone tested the card in the meta or is just an auto port from standard? Looking at lists and wondering where 5 come into play tapp lands are good?
Here's my current list that I'm hoping to try out tommorrow at an fnm level. Keep in mind I haven't played extended avidly since uza's was still in the format, but I've been playing type to consistently. Since I think alot of game 2-3's will be won off of magus of the moon I went with basics over sacks.
1 Mana
Goblin Guide: 4
Figure of Destiny: 4
Lightning Bolt: 4
Rift bolt: 4
Board-
Magus of the Moon: 4 I can't think of alot of matchups I wont want the max number since it will die alot.
wild ricochet: 2 It was very good in the mirror when it was in standard.
Volcanic Fallout: 4
Dragon's Claw: 3
Pithing Needle: 2
I can see why you'd want to run the Megaliths, since we do have empty hands at times, however, I find pumping that mana into my Kargan Dragonlords to be of much more use. While yes, they can be removed easily, your Magus of the Moon will turn your Megaliths into a ETBT Mountain. I personally wouldn't want that. That's just me talking based on my meta.
Smoldering Spires is probably fine. I can't say much about the format or the deck, but most of the lists that have been discussed will sport 23-25 lands, usually allowing for about 4 utility lands. I think it comes down to whether or not you believe it will be good alongside (or instead of) Megaliths. When SoM rotates and boots out TSP/10th, SS will likely be one of the go to utility lands for the deck (There's peaks and Tectonic Edge, as well, but again it'll come down to personal preference).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Batterskull: The 4chan party van of Magic. Starring Stoneforge Mystic as the driver of this massive trollbus!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You're right, you haven't been given an example of begin wrong because I started out right.
Now you're just trolling.
Yeah, definitely trolling.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
Not trolling. I
ve been doing some testing with the version of the deck i posted a few days ago. Since then i have droped Mogg and included Figure(as a 4 of). Even though figure is somewhat awkward in the deck Mogg was sucking. As far as tattermunge(playing 3 of) goes ive been very happy with him on the draw he almost always gets in for atleast 2 but on the play hes been crazy against alot of decks often getting in for 6 or more. He is definately better then playing burst or shard volley. Goblin guide is the only creature felt is stronger then him.(figure is in certain MU's)
With that said white is looking really strong and has been wrecking my day. Leyline of sanctity pretty much wins the game by its self when its gets cheated into play agains the burn heavy versions of the deck. I feel that overall "sligh" is not going to be the gameplan for Mono-red.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
So you're losing to a card that shouldn't see any play because it doesn't do anything, while the creature you shouldn't be running is winning you games?
The leyline is a potiental SB card choice. Depends on the meta though. If red decks are doing well then why not sb it? Leyline is a great card against burn so it may be in the 75. However I have noticed that in WW builds, Kithkin, knights, soldiers, etc that Harm's way is performing better and can in some cases be mained. Control, I like leyline though.
I know yall don't agree with it tattermunge is a sligh card. A few should MAYBE go in every build. The definition of sligh, as it was played by sligh, is to play a few guys and then burn creatures out of the way then finish with burn to the face. With that being said the card that looks like it does not belong most in a sligh deck by definition is the Keldon. However it may be powerful enough to bend the rules slightly.
Tattermunge must attack every turn. In a deck that has to attack every turn. That's not really much of a draw back. Yeah you may loose it mid game. Yeah you will loose it late game. Sligh only cares about the early game though. Munge is perfect for that spot. Jackal Pup was played in the early sligh. I lost some games, though not many because I ran pup. It was a sacrifice I had to make. (sligh on sligh sometimes called for a Fireblast to a pup) I would have much rather had munge in that spot.
Someone had a post saying that Elite Vanguard is better then Tattermunge. That is simply not so. You can't cast Vanguard in a mono red deck, so it's obviously not better in that spot. Sorry for pointing that out but to be strickly better then it has to have a simular casting cost. If you are playing a boros sligh deck then yeah Elite vanguard is the better choice.
BB shouldn't be a problem for you. If a self damaging source is a decks best out against you, and your a sligh deck, then you wouldn't worry to much about that matchup. I'm much more worried about V fallout then almost any other card and 3-4 are in my board for the mirror, and hey why not, fae can have them to.
Test Ember Hauler. It's playing out wonderfully in some games and not so great in others. But it's role is not sb materal so to me it's either MB or no place.
Sulfur Elemental is also up for testing. It doesn't have the power of other 3 drops but it's key in some matchups. I for one like to have some answers main deck for potiental mad matchups. Even better if they are great against alot of the field. It's wonderful if you expect to see counters, great for tokens, and awesome at surprise attackers. Let's put it this way. You have a few guys out and are holding a Flame Javelin and a Sulfur Elemental. If they play 1 guy then you can cast the elemental eot and on your turn blast the new blocker and reach more damage thru then if you had blasted the blocker eot. It'll take a few turns but the damage output is greater.
The 3 cc creature slot comes down to Ball Lightning, Hell's Thunder, or Sulfur. Up to you to decide that one. I do have to mention that Sulfur does help you burn out a Baneslayer Angel. Even in the exact scenario mentioned above and much others. Also it's interaction with Figure of Destiny is a bit ackward. It's good because your playing it and bad for your mirrior friend. When you play your elemental they loose there figure if they intended to pump it eot. Game 2 they will pump it for no reason just to have it burnt out, or sulfured in responce, and the resource loose is, well funny, but can be game changing. Making there Figure a 5/3 means it is boltable as well.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Searing Blaze
1 Lash Out
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flame Javelin
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Smoldering Spires
2 Keldon Megaliths
1 Ghitu Encampment
11 Mountain
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Dead/Gone
1 Sulfur Elemental
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Ghostfire
If you dont think Leyline of sanctity is going to see play you are very sadly mistaken. According to some dealers i know its the hardest m11 rare for them to keep in stock besides Fauna shaman. If a deck with 20+ burn spells is in the format the card will see play regardless of how misguided your views on it are.
Edit: M11 rare.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
....
Do you see the potential in the White Leyline?
It devastates Oath, you can still target yourself with Ancestral Recall etc etc.
Wait, I'm in the Extended forum? Oh, what does that kill?
This deck, which a handful of people are going to play throughout the season.
Oh.
That card, just because it is going to see play in Legacy and Vintage, does not mean it will see play in Extended.
Which White deck is dominating again? Last I checked, not too many decks in Extended aggressively mulligan into Leylines because they can't play them and Lark isn't dominating currently. So I'm curious about which deck will play the Leyline as Ivory Mask wasn't even played when it was in the same format as the old Mirrodin Red Decks, which packed a decent amount of burn. Also, how can Leyline be in ready stock when M11 has only been out for about a week now? I'd have trouble having many copies of a new card before the set has settled in.
@megatog: I think you missed the point of the Elite Vanguard comparison.
Why doesn't Keldon Maurader belong in Sligh? Its a two mana Lava Axe at best and takes down a card at worst.
With enemy Figures in mind, Sulfur Elemental seems better. But given the last two ML events, it doesn't seem like the format has settled still.
Joking aside, Tattermunge Maniac doesn't have the numbers to back it up historically in high-level events (every example I've used has been a top 8 at a PTQ or higher). The reason I am ignoring your "day 2 at X event" data but accepting t6 data from a MODO DE is because I'm not trying to build this deck off of 2008 lists when we have data from 2010 tournaments, even if they are smaller events... this is to get the ball rolling. I reference 2008 data to show historically, Tattermunge Maniac has not done well in high level events. If he does well at your local store or FNM, all the more power to you and your friend's UB Rogue Discard deck. If your idea of competitive is "not trying to win the event you're playing in" (or "trying to win the event held in a country where 8-Megrim.deck is also a t8 contender") then you hold a different standard of competition than the one that has readily been accepted in this section of the forum for years.
If you have a MODO account, sleeve up some Tattermunges and go to town. The deck is not very expensive, all things considered, so you can easily put your money where your mouth is considering you'd only have to win 3 before we put your list on display. I am also not kidding, we have very little tournament data to talk about with 2010 cards and numbers and figures, so if anything you'd be doing us a favor.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
I never played ivory mask against big red either, but if mask was possibly free then just maybe, and it is a stretch, but if it were free then maybe it would have seen play. It would have been almost a mb slot considering tooth and nail and blue decks ran mindslaver and would have had uses against affinity, big red, and others as well.
I didnt miss the comparision at all. All Im saying is they look pretty much the same at first glance but they are completely different guys. Red guys are historically worse then white guys. The reason is because red has reach. With that being said and being true then the point is moot. Let me put it like this - You cant say a 2/1 in white with no draw backs doesn`t see play so a 2/1 in red with a draw back shouldn`t see play. Because they function differently. The white one is a tribal guy and the red one is a bash your face guy. Do you get it now? I know my first post didnt really break it down like that. I was already taking that into account and though every one else had as well and just went with the obvious.
About the keldon, I meant only by definition does it not belong. But because its so strong then we can bend the rules lol.
Sorry to double post but im on my dsi right now and it has restictions on how large a post can be. merge them if you care to please.
Back to keldons. The only creature that comes close to filling its spot is ember hauler. Its good at removing blockers, and can sneak thru for a hit sometimes. And can do its 2 damage like keldon but that requires resources, where keldon is free and going to happen. Hauler also makes the deck weaker to fallouts. That is already the scariest card for me to play against so I`ll pass.
Is everyone comming to that conclusion? I`m more worried about fallout then *** or doj. My reasoning is 4cc allows for an extra smash phase and puts them in burn range where a fallout on the play means only 2-6 creature damage, depending on the amount of guides. Bolt fallout is basically my best plan for the mirror. Often leaving me tied at 18 and i hold more creatures.
Now, as if ya`ll didnt think i`m crazy enough already. Has any one considered Orcish Librarian? I know most look at it at first glance and say what a crappy card. Squire is better! However in a deck where everything is of the same relative value then it allows you to set up your next draws. You don`t care what gets removed. Don`t even think twice about it, just stack burn and then eot activate again. It does push the deck towards red deck wins game plan, but is a hybrid really that bad? Red deck Sligh anyone? not even suggesting a set. Just one or two as a fallback. Plus if you have ever seen the look on someone`s face after you dominate a game with him...Priceless. Ive won fnm`s with a turn two librarian.
Fallout is the standard removal spell. It hits everything relevant and prevents decks like Faeries and BW tokens from dominating.
I remember Librarian being played. I also remember watching my opponent exile all his burn with it. Its really inconsistent and generally it only is good in the mirror when burn is the determining factor.
The librarian plan is actually so crazy it might work. I may run it just for the troll value. People are sure to underestimate it, and me by proxy, which may be a lethal mistake.
Can't hurt to try it i guess
Its really only good in the mirror. I wouldn't want to maindeck it, but I might sideboard it if Dragon's Claw wasn't so good at winning the mirror.
It would also function quite well against control. You stack what's left of your 8 and put lands to the back of them. Basically you only draw threats. That over time would put a strain on a counter base deck.
In the mirror it's good. It's also ok against alot of the jank that would be found as you can often find burn to get rid of any key creatures. Also if you are in a race then threat followed by threat over and over again can win it for you.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
haha, no its not. I just think it is too hilarious to not run. I wouldn't sleeve this up for an event anyway, but if i was I sure as hell wouldn't run the worlds worst librarian. However, for a DE or such, it is actually pretty neato
It's a great inclusion for sligh. Test it. I just thought I would mention a card that most people have forgotten or just dismissed.
Testing it doesn't mean it will perform well. I've seen Librarians flop as easily as succeed.
http://www.deckcheck.net/find.php?query=53512
Riiiight.
Look. If a guy like Patrick Chapmin, an pro that has his own book and is nicknamed "The Innovator", it has to be somewhat useful. I tried it on my own. I created my own decklist from all of the posts I have made.
There's no sideboard just yet becuase I need to work on a few details, but I will tell you one thing though. This deck is probably closer to being Sligh than the other decks I have found.
Kiln Fiend vs. Boggart Ram-gang
Boggart Ram-gamg used to give me headackes when it was in standard and the same can be put for this double Standard. I see this card as being WAY more versatile than Kiln just for two reasons. Boggart ram gang is incredible on its own. This card attacks immediately when it comes out and doesn't need to be supported by spells in had to be efficient. If you don't have any spells in hand, the card becomes a boat with only a sail in a doldrum. I would rather use my spells independently from my creatures, rather than in sync with my creatures.
Orchish Librarian: My reason to put this card is simple, pure raw draw power. I don't card if I lose cards from my deck. The deck that would make me hesistant to use this card against is mill, and I think I can out run mill. Another reasoning is that when I was making the deck I was having difficulty completely replcaing cards to fit this in. The reason I had trouble was because all of these cards helped me out one way or another. If the cards are so versatile in any situation, why concede with drawing land sometimes when it could be a spell that you could really need? Who cares if you lose four cards from you deck each time you use it, if you need gas you will do anything to get it.
I was able to test this card with a Panda deck. I had a slight idea of what this card deck, but never got any testing to it. I got a hell of a surprise when started swinging with a 9/9 Nip Gwyllion, I'm not even joking on that one. Luckly I never let that one happen again. It's amazing what two Divinity of Pride on a Nip Gwyllion can do. Luckly I was able to better with next game. Twice I was able to test the card late in the game. By the time I was playing this card, I either had enough land to play anything from my deck or Hellbent. I activated it getting Boggart Ram-gangs both times. Now who likes top decking a land compared to a Boggart Ram-Gang.
After Testing here's what I changed.
-1 Burst Lightning
+1 Flame Javelin
After I was playing this deck. I realized why Volcanic Fall Out is in board. I changed to one more Flame Javelin because It did the service provided by the Burst Lighting with a cheaper cost. I think I'm going to put it another Orchis Librarian, but this card is a late game solution, not a win-con
Get of Chapin's dick. No one said he was bad, but you're looking at a total of three decklists. And the one from Chapin is almost certainly a suggested deck, since it doesn't have an event listed. He probably posted a list in an article once. I'll even find it for you if you want proof.
...
Those cards seem completely different, what with the differing mana cost and kiln fiend not even being suggested by good players that I've seen.
It doesn't draw you cards champ.
It is a random removal of cards from the top of your deck. What makes it an awful card is that you can't actually guarantee it'll smooth your draws or provide anything positive. Its a 2-drop that doesn't do anything in a deck that cannot afford to draw inconsistent cards that don't do anything.
So you had trouble finding things to cut for your Orcish Librarians? Might that be because you were cutting good cards for bad ones? If you honestly thought this deserved a place it should have straight up been easy to cut a weaker card for it. :S
Because you can't guarantee it will remove only lands. Or mostly lands. In fact, with as few lands as you have, the card has a statistically higher chance of removing spells.
And you were testing against a completely absurdly bad scrubby casual grade deck.
And managed to activate it twice, luckily not screwing yourself.
Since you don't know how to play a red deck, let me help. If its late game, you probably lose. Sorry to break it to you.
If you want lategame cards, play Demigod red or something with actual lategame plans. Kargan Dragonlord is a strong card, Demigod of Revenge seems good in a more path light meta, and you've got the old option of siege gang commander. Adding more Orcish librarians is probably the worst thing you could do if you're trying to win.
Here's my current list that I'm hoping to try out tommorrow at an fnm level. Keep in mind I haven't played extended avidly since uza's was still in the format, but I've been playing type to consistently. Since I think alot of game 2-3's will be won off of magus of the moon I went with basics over sacks.
1 Mana
Goblin Guide: 4
Figure of Destiny: 4
Lightning Bolt: 4
Rift bolt: 4
2 Mana
Keldon Marauders: 4
Kiln Fiend: 4-
Incenerate: 4
Searing Blaze: 3
3 Mana
Boggart Ram-gang: 2
Flame Javelin: 4
Lands
Keldon Megaliths: 2
Smoldering Spires: 2
Mountain: 19
Board-
Magus of the Moon: 4 I can't think of alot of matchups I wont want the max number since it will die alot.
wild ricochet: 2 It was very good in the mirror when it was in standard.
Volcanic Fallout: 4
Dragon's Claw: 3
Pithing Needle: 2
My top 8 Naya deck was featured in a new format.
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
Casual: Treefolk Tribal
Commander: Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Batterskull: The 4chan party van of Magic. Starring Stoneforge Mystic as the driver of this massive trollbus!