Hey. My friend wants to get into magic and for his birthday I'm thinking about getting him an elf deck since he'd probably like that the best. However I've never delved into the world of elves and so am clueless on how to go about building a decent but budget Elf deck. Think you folks could help me out? The budget is about 30 dollars.
That's all about mana base. Without your first forest, even if you have 200 first turn mana dorks, you won't play, that's it.
Yup. Although I've been testing with as few as 15 in my non-stompy deck, I understand the mulligan issue and I think it speaks for itself. It's a strong point.
That particular remark you're replying to was in response to the part of your argument that topdecking too many mana dorks would result in a less threatening deck. Replacing the dorks with lands means there's a similar possibility that you'll draw too many lands, and thus be even less threatening. After all, even a 1/1 elf could easily be used as a chump blocker, or become a 2/2 or 3/3 once a lord hits the table, or bolster the production of kinship elves and others that tap for X where X equals the number of elves in play. Lands won't.
I prefer 1000x Quirion Ranger than a Fyndhorn Elves, specially in a tight mana base, where both will provide 2 mana 2nd turn, but the former can use it's untap ability later to rock on the board.
Sure, sure, no question. I happen to think Quirion Ranger is one of (if not the) best elf cards ever printed. The only question is quantity. She makes turn 2 a thing of joy, but that doesn't work so hot unless there was a T1 mana dork.
And I think I should clarify that I don't think tech is a bad thing. It's a fabulous thing. I just think 8 tech cards is a few too many. Else you run the risk of drawing too much tech and not enough threats.
I'm so sad that Wirewood Symbiote isn't an Elf. I agree Ranger is one of the best Elves, but Symbiote would be even better if not for that damn creature type.
Yup. Although I've been testing with as few as 15 in my non-stompy deck, I understand the mulligan issue and I think it speaks for itself. It's a strong point.
That particular remark you're replying to was in response to the part of your argument that topdecking too many mana dorks would result in a less threatening deck. Replacing the dorks with lands means there's a similar possibility that you'll draw too many lands, and thus be even less threatening. After all, even a 1/1 elf could easily be used as a chump blocker, or become a 2/2 or 3/3 once a lord hits the table, or bolster the production of kinship elves and others that tap for X where X equals the number of elves in play. Lands won't.
I understand where you're going and i agree, but for topdeck neither land or a 1/1 mana won't do anything really relevant late game, 'cause rarely this 1 more will be relevant to the X costs or to be another 2/2-3/3, and hardly will mean a victory that you wouldn't get without it.
Also i wanna point out that Land Grant is not a land but a deck thinning, so higher chance of going into elves when on the draw, without risking your mana generation.
I'd like to remember that this deck is not really meant for a late game, as many already stated, turn 4 is when we should going for the throat. So we must think on the first turn flow, where things MUST happen, otherwise we risk ourselves to run into a later game, where this deck is not so strong and risk to face some really threatful mass removal or just bigger threats that we can't deal with.
Finally, running 8 lands + Land Grant + ESG is really smooth, and guarantees we can drop our first/second turn mana dork, with no further concern of going into many lands.
Sure, sure, no question. I happen to think Quirion Ranger is one of (if not the) best elf cards ever printed. The only question is quantity. She makes turn 2 a thing of joy, but that doesn't work so hot unless there was a T1 mana dork.
And I think I should clarify that I don't think tech is a bad thing. It's a fabulous thing. I just think 8 tech cards is a few too many. Else you run the risk of drawing too much tech and not enough threats.
I agree that inserting too many "tech" cards is not good. But there are some cards that are crucial to the deck like Ranger and Symbiote. And as long this deck has to work very fast, this cards must appear on the first 4 turns to really make it happen.
Since we agree that ranger is one of the best mana provider early game in shorty land deck, when we play a deck that should finish on 4 turns, we must be sure that this guy appear, so he can do his job as it's suppose to do, and running less than 4, there is an improved chance of this fact not happen.
Symbiote is another one that we really need, really need. The deck plays with a few wincon, usually 8 cards. If we can't protect those cards, we're screwed, 'cause we won't beat with a tons of mana dorks. So we must have some way to secure a next turn for our threats do their job, and Symbiote does that.
About this topic, even if we agree that too many "tech" cards out won't matter much, in the first 4 turns, it's unlikely to double draw any of these, but even if it happen, their a not dead cards, since the deck runs tons of cards with sinergy with those like wisher, titania, shaman, and specially timberwatch, so they'll bring us some benefit like life, cards, mana or power.
@Stax: really true, if symbiote was an elf, it'd be just amazing. And nice catch, Eladamri is better than Steely because it can be draw by our CA engines.
@Stax: really true, if symbiote was an elf, it'd be just amazing. And nice catch, Eladamri is better than Steely because it can be draw by our CA engines.
I was actually excited, didn't know he'd been errata'd to an Elf.
As for the Land Grant/ESG, it's nice, but ESG is massive card disadvantage (a card for a single mana, once) and Land Grant worries me (as all non-Elf cards in this deck do). I dunno. Sort of annoying that for all the green land tutors they didn't print a Tribal Elf sorcery/instant one.
As for the Land Grant/ESG, it's nice, but ESG is massive card disadvantage (a card for a single mana, once) and Land Grant worries me (as all non-Elf cards in this deck do). I dunno. Sort of annoying that for all the green land tutors they didn't print a Tribal Elf sorcery/instant one.
ESG are for the stompy variant of aggro elves as you plan to win by turn 3-4, think of it as a kinda lotus petal/ritual thing.
Land Grant is for deck thinning and also for stompy builds, as you want the least amount of lands in your deck to ensure you get a lower chance of drawing gas.
Tutors are more commonly used for combo elves as most of the time aggro just beat straight to the face with global pumps and like. Alternate ideas of tutors would be a more slower deck like Elf Survival which uses the survival of the fittest engine.
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
Tru dat. ESG is not a land replacement. She is a mana accelerator for use at critical times. Like, if you want to cast Talara's Battalion, but don't have a green spell you can afford. Discarding ESG counts as that spell. It's a cute turn 1 play.
Ravana, I'll have to do some digging, but I can probably toss together a list this evening. Is there a particular place you buy cards? That will help with the pricing.
What would you sideboard? I'm thinking 4 Zealots and 3-4 Eladmri to start, dunno what else. Maybe Caller of the Claw for board sweepers?
EDIT - And I've been playtesting (I got all the cards I was missing save the Joragas) and I have to admit the Heedless Ones are seeming semi-replaceable (and that's without the other win condition in Joraga, which will only make them more replaceable). Do you think -4 Heedless, +4 Archdruid would fit? A turn earlier, more mana production, Lord effect, it does seem like a nicer swap.
Here you go, Ravana. This is not a good deck, but it's a fair starter deck. It includes enchantments, instants, and a variety of keyword abilities that should be good learning material for a new player. If he gets into the game, it shouldn't be difficult to upgrade it a few cards at a time.
Actual total is 34.05$ (plus basic land). I took pricing from Coolstuffinc, which is not the cheapest place, but a popular and reputable retailer. Shop around.
I woke up this morning and slapped myself on the forehead for nothing thinking of it last night. IMO, you'd get more bang for the buck playing Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel in that build. Heritage Druid is one of the cheaper options of the bulk mana producers. Again, not a perfect build, but it's something that fits the budget.
Asylum,
I think you're getting too hung up on terminology, there. Yes, I did write "critical" when I probably should have written "opportune", but I also finished the thought with a remark about Elvish Spirit Guide being a mana accelerator. Having reread Tenkai's post, I still think "mana accelerator" is consistent with what he wrote.
While the build is relatively new to me, I do play 4x ESG in the stompy version of my elf deck. So, I am not completely unfamiliar with her. And my opinion that she does not replace lands is not something I cooked up on a whim. It's an opinion that has been expressed by many competitive players whose comments I've read, both here and on other sites. As I recall, it is even part of the primer written on aggro elves in the competitive section. I make no claims at expertise for myself, but I'm not exactly shooting from the hip.
I'd just not be good where a 1 mana burst early game wouldn't mean any improvement for the deck to get a better board position, mostly decks that target mid-late game.
There's a typo or two in there. It's difficult for me to understand what you mean. If you'll rephrase, I'll be happy to have your advice.
Consider Elves of Deep Shadow, particularly if you're going for a more control'y build (Forest, Turn 1 EoDS gets you both an elf on the field and a source of black for your disruption so you can dedicate your mana production to the beatz side of things).
What would you sideboard? I'm thinking 4 Zealots and 3-4 Eladmri to start, dunno what else. Maybe Caller of the Claw for board sweepers?
EDIT - And I've been playtesting (I got all the cards I was missing save the Joragas) and I have to admit the Heedless Ones are seeming semi-replaceable (and that's without the other win condition in Joraga, which will only make them more replaceable). Do you think -4 Heedless, +4 Archdruid would fit? A turn earlier, more mana production, Lord effect, it does seem like a nicer swap.
Actually, something that I could recommend is running more of the lords, particularly elvish archdruid (A must) and imperious perfect. Also, I personally run 16 forests and don't need the fyndhorn elves, because of the zany things that the rangers can do. For my wincon I do like Joraga, but right now I have a 2:2 split between joraga and wren's run packmaster, and I'm liking it that way. Having lots of mana is nice, and the deathtouch on the wolves helps.
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Winner of the August CCL '10
Host of the July CCL '10, Host of the March CCL '11
I opened one last year, got two crap worldwake packs and 8x scathe zombies, which I promptly hid around my sister's apartment for her roommates to find. But, yeah, it was a piece of crap.
You, sir, have just won the internet. Congratulations.
New decklist for Standard, let me know what you guys think...still heavy M11, as my library consists of about 75% M11 and 20% Mirrodin/Kamigawa. I find this deck aiming more and more towards Elfburn aggro and less against the Fireball/Big creature with mana accel.
I ran the Vanquisher in my first elf deck... before I knew any better. Only Talara's Battalion beat her to curb. But Vanquisher is back as part of my stompy build for a few reasons.
1. She's an efficient beater. Doesn't need lords to be dangerous.
2. She's a good blocker. If removal has ruined your early board development and the game goes 6+ turns, she's a good draw off Messenger.
3. With the M11 rules change, deathtouch now interacts with trample - making her practically unblockable.
Her list of drawbacks is equally long, but I think she has a home in some decks.
Banefire and Nature's Spiral are both bad cascade targets. Probably not a big problem with only three in the mainboard, but I figure it's worth mentioning. You could use a little true draw, even if it's just Elvish Visionary.
I ran the Vanquisher in my first elf deck... before I knew any better. Only Talara's Battalion beat her to curb. But Vanquisher is back as part of my stompy build for a few reasons.
1. She's an efficient beater. Doesn't need lords to be dangerous.
2. She's a good blocker. If removal has ruined your early board development and the game goes 6+ turns, she's a good draw off Messenger.
3. With the M11 rules change, deathtouch now interacts with trample - making her practically unblockable.
Her list of drawbacks is equally long, but I think she has a home in some decks.
Banefire and Nature's Spiral are both bad cascade targets. Probably not a big problem with only three in the mainboard, but I figure it's worth mentioning. You could use a little true draw, even if it's just Elvish Visionary.
Aye, I realize these are bad targets...especially the banefire. I originally didn't have Bloodbraid in here, as it was an M11 deck..what would you suggest in place? I want to keep the Nature's Spiral in there for synergy with Fauna Shaman, once I get a chance to test the deck (as now it's purely academic, haven't had any playtesting) I'll determine if the Nature's Spiral is a hindrance. I like having the banefire as a last-resort win condition, tap all creatures/land for mana and go for a big burn..but if I have to use it as a last resort, I probably won't have enough mana base to get a big one off anyways.
I really need help building a sideboard and I would also like to fit some card advantage in there, like Harmonize. I haven't tested Primal Command yet.
I really need help building a sideboard and I would also like to fit some card advantage in there, like Harmonize. I haven't tested Primal Command yet.
What's your budget, format (if any) and meta like?
2x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
18x Forest
Creatures (26)
2x Jagged-Scar Archers
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Nissa's Chosen
4x Joraga Warcaller
4x Joraga Treespeaker
4x Bramblewood Paragon
2x Slate of Ancestry
1x Channel
1x Berserk
2x Eldrazi Conscription
2x Strength of the Tajuru
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Skullclamp
2x Jagged-Scar Archers
3x Krosan Grip
3x Canopy Cover
3x Gaea's Blessing
4x ??
Any comments? The plan is to attack as quickly as possible. If the game drags on, the Eldrazi Conscription is an extra finisher.
What are good ways for a green deck like this to bounce back after a Wrath of God?
Best regards, and thanks
Yup. Although I've been testing with as few as 15 in my non-stompy deck, I understand the mulligan issue and I think it speaks for itself. It's a strong point.
That particular remark you're replying to was in response to the part of your argument that topdecking too many mana dorks would result in a less threatening deck. Replacing the dorks with lands means there's a similar possibility that you'll draw too many lands, and thus be even less threatening. After all, even a 1/1 elf could easily be used as a chump blocker, or become a 2/2 or 3/3 once a lord hits the table, or bolster the production of kinship elves and others that tap for X where X equals the number of elves in play. Lands won't.
Sure, sure, no question. I happen to think Quirion Ranger is one of (if not the) best elf cards ever printed. The only question is quantity. She makes turn 2 a thing of joy, but that doesn't work so hot unless there was a T1 mana dork.
And I think I should clarify that I don't think tech is a bad thing. It's a fabulous thing. I just think 8 tech cards is a few too many. Else you run the risk of drawing too much tech and not enough threats.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
I understand where you're going and i agree, but for topdeck neither land or a 1/1 mana won't do anything really relevant late game, 'cause rarely this 1 more will be relevant to the X costs or to be another 2/2-3/3, and hardly will mean a victory that you wouldn't get without it.
Also i wanna point out that Land Grant is not a land but a deck thinning, so higher chance of going into elves when on the draw, without risking your mana generation.
I'd like to remember that this deck is not really meant for a late game, as many already stated, turn 4 is when we should going for the throat. So we must think on the first turn flow, where things MUST happen, otherwise we risk ourselves to run into a later game, where this deck is not so strong and risk to face some really threatful mass removal or just bigger threats that we can't deal with.
Finally, running 8 lands + Land Grant + ESG is really smooth, and guarantees we can drop our first/second turn mana dork, with no further concern of going into many lands.
I agree that inserting too many "tech" cards is not good. But there are some cards that are crucial to the deck like Ranger and Symbiote. And as long this deck has to work very fast, this cards must appear on the first 4 turns to really make it happen.
Since we agree that ranger is one of the best mana provider early game in shorty land deck, when we play a deck that should finish on 4 turns, we must be sure that this guy appear, so he can do his job as it's suppose to do, and running less than 4, there is an improved chance of this fact not happen.
Symbiote is another one that we really need, really need. The deck plays with a few wincon, usually 8 cards. If we can't protect those cards, we're screwed, 'cause we won't beat with a tons of mana dorks. So we must have some way to secure a next turn for our threats do their job, and Symbiote does that.
About this topic, even if we agree that too many "tech" cards out won't matter much, in the first 4 turns, it's unlikely to double draw any of these, but even if it happen, their a not dead cards, since the deck runs tons of cards with sinergy with those like wisher, titania, shaman, and specially timberwatch, so they'll bring us some benefit like life, cards, mana or power.
@Stax: really true, if symbiote was an elf, it'd be just amazing. And nice catch, Eladamri is better than Steely because it can be draw by our CA engines.
I was actually excited, didn't know he'd been errata'd to an Elf.
As for the Land Grant/ESG, it's nice, but ESG is massive card disadvantage (a card for a single mana, once) and Land Grant worries me (as all non-Elf cards in this deck do). I dunno. Sort of annoying that for all the green land tutors they didn't print a Tribal Elf sorcery/instant one.
ESG are for the stompy variant of aggro elves as you plan to win by turn 3-4, think of it as a kinda lotus petal/ritual thing.
Land Grant is for deck thinning and also for stompy builds, as you want the least amount of lands in your deck to ensure you get a lower chance of drawing gas.
Tutors are more commonly used for combo elves as most of the time aggro just beat straight to the face with global pumps and like. Alternate ideas of tutors would be a more slower deck like Elf Survival which uses the survival of the fittest engine.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
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Ravana, I'll have to do some digging, but I can probably toss together a list this evening. Is there a particular place you buy cards? That will help with the pricing.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
14 Forests
//Creatures (43)
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Timberwatch Elves
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Wellwisher
4 Heedless One
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Concordant Crossroads
What would you sideboard? I'm thinking 4 Zealots and 3-4 Eladmri to start, dunno what else. Maybe Caller of the Claw for board sweepers?
EDIT - And I've been playtesting (I got all the cards I was missing save the Joragas) and I have to admit the Heedless Ones are seeming semi-replaceable (and that's without the other win condition in Joraga, which will only make them more replaceable). Do you think -4 Heedless, +4 Archdruid would fit? A turn earlier, more mana production, Lord effect, it does seem like a nicer swap.
4 Llanowar
4 Arbor Elf
4 Joraga Treespeaker
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Bloodline Shaman
4 Lys Alana Huntmaster
4 Bramblewood Paragon
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
2 Tribal Forcemage
2 Joraga Warcaller
4 Quest for Renewal
2 Strength of the Tajuru
Land
16 Forest
Actual total is 34.05$ (plus basic land). I took pricing from Coolstuffinc, which is not the cheapest place, but a popular and reputable retailer. Shop around.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
ESG is just not good in decks where an early mana burst doesn't provide some kind of board position. Example: mid-late game decks.
geez...erased my old text....
I woke up this morning and slapped myself on the forehead for nothing thinking of it last night. IMO, you'd get more bang for the buck playing Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel in that build. Heritage Druid is one of the cheaper options of the bulk mana producers. Again, not a perfect build, but it's something that fits the budget.
Asylum,
I think you're getting too hung up on terminology, there. Yes, I did write "critical" when I probably should have written "opportune", but I also finished the thought with a remark about Elvish Spirit Guide being a mana accelerator. Having reread Tenkai's post, I still think "mana accelerator" is consistent with what he wrote.
While the build is relatively new to me, I do play 4x ESG in the stompy version of my elf deck. So, I am not completely unfamiliar with her. And my opinion that she does not replace lands is not something I cooked up on a whim. It's an opinion that has been expressed by many competitive players whose comments I've read, both here and on other sites. As I recall, it is even part of the primer written on aggro elves in the competitive section. I make no claims at expertise for myself, but I'm not exactly shooting from the hip.
There's a typo or two in there. It's difficult for me to understand what you mean. If you'll rephrase, I'll be happy to have your advice.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
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Wellwisher plus Necropotence could be brutal. Tough to make room for her, though.
Tainted Wood could be useful with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth already on the battlefield, but, in truth, the land mana already looks pretty well sorted.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
Actually, something that I could recommend is running more of the lords, particularly elvish archdruid (A must) and imperious perfect. Also, I personally run 16 forests and don't need the fyndhorn elves, because of the zany things that the rangers can do. For my wincon I do like Joraga, but right now I have a 2:2 split between joraga and wren's run packmaster, and I'm liking it that way. Having lots of mana is nice, and the deathtouch on the wolves helps.
Host of the July CCL '10, Host of the March CCL '11
A. Plenty of decks aren't creature based
B. How many decks can honestly block the Elven horde come turn 3 or 4 when you're winning?
And yea, like I said, Archdruid for Heedless is probably in the future.
1x Inferno Titan
1x Primeval Titan
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Sylvan Ranger
2x Fauna Shaman
2x Joraga Warcaller
4x Llanaowar Elves
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Banefire
4x Chandra's Outrage
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Nature's Spiral
3x Crystal Ball
Lands - (22)
4x Rootbound Crag
9x Forest
9x Mountain
3x Acidic Slime
3x Combust
3x Autumn's Veil
2x Banefire
3x Plummet
1x Inferno Titan
1. She's an efficient beater. Doesn't need lords to be dangerous.
2. She's a good blocker. If removal has ruined your early board development and the game goes 6+ turns, she's a good draw off Messenger.
3. With the M11 rules change, deathtouch now interacts with trample - making her practically unblockable.
Her list of drawbacks is equally long, but I think she has a home in some decks.
I'm not sure I would run Wren's Run Packmaster unless I was also running Wolf-Skull Shaman and Tribal Forcemage (call wolves, not elves), but I can see a case for the Packmaster, too.
Rohkey,
Banefire and Nature's Spiral are both bad cascade targets. Probably not a big problem with only three in the mainboard, but I figure it's worth mentioning. You could use a little true draw, even if it's just Elvish Visionary.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
Aye, I realize these are bad targets...especially the banefire. I originally didn't have Bloodbraid in here, as it was an M11 deck..what would you suggest in place? I want to keep the Nature's Spiral in there for synergy with Fauna Shaman, once I get a chance to test the deck (as now it's purely academic, haven't had any playtesting) I'll determine if the Nature's Spiral is a hindrance. I like having the banefire as a last-resort win condition, tap all creatures/land for mana and go for a big burn..but if I have to use it as a last resort, I probably won't have enough mana base to get a big one off anyways.
As for the BG list, I still don't get why you aren't running an Elves of Dark Shadow or 2. You win before that little damage matters.
Maindecking both Caller and Oversold seems like a lot of sweeper hate, do you face lots in your meta?
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nissa's Chosen
4 Wolf Skull Shaman
4 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Nissa Revane
2 Primal Command
Lands
18 Forest
I really need help building a sideboard and I would also like to fit some card advantage in there, like Harmonize. I haven't tested Primal Command yet.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
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Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
What's your budget, format (if any) and meta like?
These could help us answer your queries =)
Some ideas you can get from my lists over here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5618226&postcount=403
Hope it helps =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)