Now think about what will happen if wizards dissapoint all the hoarders, all the investers, the whole secondary market, and all the players who now paid 90 euro's for a card that hardly is worth 30 anymore? You think european players will accept that? You think that'll make legacy better here?
on the contrary, this would make 90% of the playerbase hate wizards for breaking their promise and they are aware of that.
Prepare to see legacy and vintage die completely when your wish is fulfilled.
This is the only inevitable action to be taken by wotc if they wish to keep legacy alive. I don't think they will do it and just let the format die.
I would make an attempt to refute what you just said, but I don't have time to decipher the incomprehensible mess you have written.
So...I win!
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Now think about what will happen if wizards dissapoint all the hoarders, all the investers, the whole secondary market, and all the players who now paid 90 euro's for a card that hardly is worth 30 anymore?
Doing away with the reserve list and reprinting duels probably won't bother most of the legacy community, they have no intention of selling their cards because they like legacy, the ones who are really invested (foils, beta etc) really don't care as their investment is almost guaranteed to be safe, and extremely difficult to devalue (short of releasing a whole new stock that they found in the back of their factory that dramatically increases the supply..which is unlikely), I am also willing to bet SCG would be fine with it as well, it's much easier to sell 100 $30 Underground Seas, than it is to sell 30 $100 Underground Seas. Collectors certainly wouldn't care because, well, they collect, they want one of everything, the people that collect aren't likely to sell.
The only ones who would be upset is the small subset that want the reserved list around (very few, and I've met one in real life who is one, and it's more from a consumer confidence angle than a "ERMAHGERD DEY R DEEVALUUING MAH SHINGLES"), or hoarders who had everything invested in cards...the latter needs to be slapped around anyways.
If you sat down with most legacy players and told them "all right, duels are being reprinted en masse, but your going to get another 10-20 people at your legacy events, almost guaranteed, and SCG Legacy opens attendance grows AND you can bet wizards will do more legacy gp's" they would forget how much their cards are worth (note, I don't think they should reprint the duels en masse)
Okay, I've said this somewhere else. I'll say it here, briefly. You can read the whole explanation in another thread.
The RL is a smokescreen. It's the man behind the curtain telling us "Don't worry, we won't reprint your expensive cards. They won't go down in value. We promise" when in reality, they have no intention of reprinting those cards anyway. They don't need an RL to not print something.
The card is an uncommon for crying out loud, isn't really that expensive, compared to other cards, and after what, 17 years they STILL haven't reprinted it?
Think they ever will? Think again.
The RL is to appease the collectors who need something in "writing" so that they don't go ballistic and sue the crap out of Hasbro, as if they have a case.
Conversely, if the day ever came when WotC was facing bankruptcy, do you REALLY think the RL is going to keep them from reprinting cards if doing so can save them from going under?
If you believe that, then you're as delusional as the guy who thinks that WotC is going to start printing LD at 2cmc again.
The RL is the biggest PR white elephant that's probably ever been created because in reality, it does absolutely nothing.
His point of bringing up those cards was to demistify my arguement that limited prints drive price more than demand. Take a look at things like diamond valley. That keeps climing and has little to no demand outside of a 1 of for EDH, and there are plenty of other examples of stuff like that strictly based on rarety than on demand.
This is just wrong. Your example shows that EDH generates significant demand! Plenty of other examples? How about Elephant Graveyard? That card was rare (Diamond Valley is uncommon). Which is worth more? You can bet when they print a good elephant General Elephant Graveyard will spike!
This is just wrong. Your example shows that EDH generates significant demand! Plenty of other examples? How about Elephant Graveyard? That card was rare (Diamond Valley is uncommon). Which is worth more? You can bet when they print a good elephant General Elephant Graveyard will spike!
Is the most rare version of cards from Arabian Nights; and hence Rare.
Arabian Nights print run (amount of copies of each card)
20,500 Arabian U2
31,000 Arabian U3 -or- Arabian C1
41,000 Arabian U4
124,000 Arabian C4
155,000 Arabian C5
341,000 Arabian Deserts
Private Mod Note
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
26 at our Thursday weekly event, but only 15 at the Saturday weekly event. I think the latter is because of Easter weekend, but I could be wrong. The Saturday weekly event usually still hovers around 20+.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
I hate to sound like a jerk, but to be honest I would prefer if atleast some of the legacy events were replaced by modern or standard events. Those latter 2 formats are so much more reasonable and accessible for many players to play. A viable legacy deck can cost thousands, with the lands costing upwards past $100 EACH. As a younger player and like many other players I know, it's not practical for me to spend hundreds of dollars on a manabase alone. I hope to some day be able to play legacy, but it's just so expensive >_>
I hate to sound like a jerk, but to be honest I would prefer if atleast some of the legacy events were replaced by modern or standard events. Those latter 2 formats are so much more reasonable and accessible for many players to play. A viable legacy deck can cost thousands, with the lands costing upwards past $100 EACH. As a younger player and like many other players I know, it's not practical for me to spend hundreds of dollars on a manabase alone. I hope to some day be able to play legacy, but it's just so expensive >_>
There are PLENTY of standard and modern events covered by wizards. Also, if you're very invested in the modern/standard format, you will definitely be spending the equivalent or more than a legacy deck.
On the general discussion, as long as the invitationals retain the same format, I think there will continue to be legacy opens and support.
I hate to sound like a jerk, but to be honest I would prefer if atleast some of the legacy events were replaced by modern or standard events. Those latter 2 formats are so much more reasonable and accessible for many players to play. A viable legacy deck can cost thousands, with the lands costing upwards past $100 EACH. As a younger player and like many other players I know, it's not practical for me to spend hundreds of dollars on a manabase alone. I hope to some day be able to play legacy, but it's just so expensive >_>
SCG is the only way other than a few GPs and other random events run by stores to play in large legacy tourneys. In my area at least I could go to a bigger (meaningful) Standard tourney probably almost every weekend if I wanted to (I Dont). I mean that is of course the metro ATL area just being great for magic, but still.
I hate to sound like a jerk, but to be honest I would prefer if atleast some of the legacy events were replaced by modern or standard events. Those latter 2 formats are so much more reasonable and accessible for many players to play. A viable legacy deck can cost thousands, with the lands costing upwards past $100 EACH. As a younger player and like many other players I know, it's not practical for me to spend hundreds of dollars on a manabase alone. I hope to some day be able to play legacy, but it's just so expensive >_>
I would much rather spend $120 on an Underground Sea that will be worth $180 in a few years than $40 on a Thundermaw Hellkite that will be worth $5 in a few months. If you prefer the latter though, to each his own I guess. But playing Standard over Legacy "for money reasons" really isn't smart. You can make a better case for Modern but in the long run the cost difference is pretty negligible.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Build a non-blue mana base and move forward from there. Jund, Junk and Mav's lands can be got at under 300 total.
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Currently Running:
:symb::symu::symg: BUG Tempo
:symb::symg::symw: JUNK
:symg::symr::symb: JUND
Currently Building:
:symu::symw: Miracle Control
:symb::symu::symr: ANT
I hate to sound like a jerk, but to be honest I would prefer if atleast some of the legacy events were replaced by modern or standard events. Those latter 2 formats are so much more reasonable and accessible for many players to play. A viable legacy deck can cost thousands, with the lands costing upwards past $100 EACH. As a younger player and like many other players I know, it's not practical for me to spend hundreds of dollars on a manabase alone. I hope to some day be able to play legacy, but it's just so expensive >_>
To be honest, you sound like you're lacking patience, foresight and you're demanding immediate gratification. (as with so many young people)
#1 there are modern events
#2 there are standard events
Go play those events. Why wish for legacy events to be something else. This is self serving and demanding immediate gratification.
You also "hope to play Legacy one day" so this is were you lack patience and foresight. So why replace those events that exist now.
BTW the lands cost up to $160 for revised duals and go as high as $3500 for a pimped out Alpha underground sea. And guess what? We don't care because we love it.
I doubt a lot of legacy players just went out and bought their whole deck at once (though I do know a guy who did). It is something you gain over time. One piece at a time. Plus it isnt like at a local event you cant just play more basics/use a few shocks. Ive done fine. The key is the fetch lands.
To be honest, you sound like you're lacking patience, foresight and you're demanding immediate gratification. (as with so many young people)
#1 there are modern events
#2 there are standard events
Go play those events. Why wish for legacy events to be something else. This is self serving and demanding immediate gratification.
You also "hope to play Legacy one day" so this is were you lack patience and foresight. So why replace those events that exist now.
BTW the lands cost up to $160 for revised duals and go as high as $3500 for a pimped out Alpha underground sea. And guess what? We don't care because we love it.
And still no matter how you look at it, a person has to spend $160 in one shot to get that underground sea. It's not like modern where even the fetchlands go to $33ish at most.
If I were to start making a legacy deck right now, it would take me about 2 years without spending on any other formats to create a fun, top tier deck. I wouldn't call that an ignorant search for 'immediate gratification', it's just I would rather put my hard earned money towards modern, which I'll actually be able to play sooner than years down the road. I'm 18 years old, working as a delivery guy, and going to college next year. If I put $130 (or I'm sorry, $160) towards an original dual, I'll be sitting on it for the next X years doing nothing with it. A magic card without a deck around it is simply a piece of cardboard, or at best a trading piece at which point I would have rather just spent the money on the cards I'm trading it for in the first place. I can't afford to buy magic cards and sit on them until they increase in value and then sell it/trade it for more than I spent sometime later.
All I'm saying is that for a huge portion of people trying to play Magic the Gathering, Legacy is not a viable option.
He didnt say that you wanted gratification to play legacy. He said it because you thought that Legacy Opens should be changed to standard or modern. You can find plenty of standard and modern events everywhere. Legacy is much more difficult to find a tournament for. Which is why Legacy players get angry when standard or modern players say that SCG should change legacy opens.
And still no matter how you look at it, a person has to spend $160 in one shot to get that underground sea. It's not like modern where even the fetchlands go to $33ish at most.
If I were to start making a legacy deck right now, it would take me about 2 years without spending on any other formats to create a fun, top tier deck. I wouldn't call that an ignorant search for 'immediate gratification', it's just I would rather put my hard earned money towards modern, which I'll actually be able to play sooner than years down the road. I'm 18 years old, working as a delivery guy, and going to college next year. If I put $130 (or I'm sorry, $160) towards an original dual, I'll be sitting on it for the next X years doing nothing with it. A magic card without a deck around it is simply a piece of cardboard, or at best a trading piece at which point I would have rather just spent the money on the cards I'm trading it for in the first place. I can't afford to buy magic cards and sit on them until they increase in value and then sell it/trade it for more than I spent sometime later.
All I'm saying is that for a huge portion of people trying to play Magic the Gathering, Legacy is not a viable option.
To be honest, with some patience you can get MP duals on eBay for well below the quoted SCG prices. I've gotten Underground Seas for $80 (about 6 months ago) and a Tropical Island for $60. Yes, that's still a lot of money, but if you do the work and are patient, you can get them (slowly).
Also as you have noted, if you don't invest as much into Standard you'd be surprised how quickly you'll have money for Legacy staples. I personally only play Legacy and Draft and put all my draft winnings into either store credit (i.e. get store credit instead of packs) or turn my rares into store credit as well. I was able to purchase a Scrubland by doing that for about two months.
Lastly, I'd honestly say Fetch lands are more important than Dual Lands. Most decks do not *need* four of a dual land (maybe two is enough in many cases) and frankly you could get away with running Shocks so long as you had the fetches. And even with Fetches there are cheaper alternatives (i.e. Zendikar). I'll agree that Shocks won't be as efficient, but if you simply want to play and compete, they are acceptable. You won't outright lose every game because of two damage although a handful of times it may happen. Either way, it's a place to start and as I said, grow from there.
So...I win!
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Doing away with the reserve list and reprinting duels probably won't bother most of the legacy community, they have no intention of selling their cards because they like legacy, the ones who are really invested (foils, beta etc) really don't care as their investment is almost guaranteed to be safe, and extremely difficult to devalue (short of releasing a whole new stock that they found in the back of their factory that dramatically increases the supply..which is unlikely), I am also willing to bet SCG would be fine with it as well, it's much easier to sell 100 $30 Underground Seas, than it is to sell 30 $100 Underground Seas. Collectors certainly wouldn't care because, well, they collect, they want one of everything, the people that collect aren't likely to sell.
The only ones who would be upset is the small subset that want the reserved list around (very few, and I've met one in real life who is one, and it's more from a consumer confidence angle than a "ERMAHGERD DEY R DEEVALUUING MAH SHINGLES"), or hoarders who had everything invested in cards...the latter needs to be slapped around anyways.
If you sat down with most legacy players and told them "all right, duels are being reprinted en masse, but your going to get another 10-20 people at your legacy events, almost guaranteed, and SCG Legacy opens attendance grows AND you can bet wizards will do more legacy gp's" they would forget how much their cards are worth (note, I don't think they should reprint the duels en masse)
The RL is a smokescreen. It's the man behind the curtain telling us "Don't worry, we won't reprint your expensive cards. They won't go down in value. We promise" when in reality, they have no intention of reprinting those cards anyway. They don't need an RL to not print something.
Case in point.
Force of Will
The card is an uncommon for crying out loud, isn't really that expensive, compared to other cards, and after what, 17 years they STILL haven't reprinted it?
Think they ever will? Think again.
The RL is to appease the collectors who need something in "writing" so that they don't go ballistic and sue the crap out of Hasbro, as if they have a case.
Conversely, if the day ever came when WotC was facing bankruptcy, do you REALLY think the RL is going to keep them from reprinting cards if doing so can save them from going under?
If you believe that, then you're as delusional as the guy who thinks that WotC is going to start printing LD at 2cmc again.
The RL is the biggest PR white elephant that's probably ever been created because in reality, it does absolutely nothing.
This is just wrong. Your example shows that EDH generates significant demand! Plenty of other examples? How about Elephant Graveyard? That card was rare (Diamond Valley is uncommon). Which is worth more? You can bet when they print a good elephant General Elephant Graveyard will spike!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Diamond Valley is a rare.
Uncoomon 2
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Is the most rare version of cards from Arabian Nights; and hence Rare.
Arabian Nights print run (amount of copies of each card)
20,500 Arabian U2
31,000 Arabian U3 -or- Arabian C1
41,000 Arabian U4
124,000 Arabian C4
155,000 Arabian C5
341,000 Arabian Deserts
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Legacy is still growing in my area. There were at least 3 players who i know from other formats making their first Legacy debut.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7790606#post7790606
There are PLENTY of standard and modern events covered by wizards. Also, if you're very invested in the modern/standard format, you will definitely be spending the equivalent or more than a legacy deck.
On the general discussion, as long as the invitationals retain the same format, I think there will continue to be legacy opens and support.
SCG is the only way other than a few GPs and other random events run by stores to play in large legacy tourneys. In my area at least I could go to a bigger (meaningful) Standard tourney probably almost every weekend if I wanted to (I Dont). I mean that is of course the metro ATL area just being great for magic, but still.
I would much rather spend $120 on an Underground Sea that will be worth $180 in a few years than $40 on a Thundermaw Hellkite that will be worth $5 in a few months. If you prefer the latter though, to each his own I guess. But playing Standard over Legacy "for money reasons" really isn't smart. You can make a better case for Modern but in the long run the cost difference is pretty negligible.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
:symb::symu::symg: BUG Tempo
:symb::symg::symw: JUNK
:symg::symr::symb: JUND
Currently Building:
:symu::symw: Miracle Control
:symb::symu::symr: ANT
I can corroborate that since I'm one of the new guys who came yesterday. Glad to have met you WorstBandNameEver.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
To be honest, you sound like you're lacking patience, foresight and you're demanding immediate gratification. (as with so many young people)
#1 there are modern events
#2 there are standard events
Go play those events. Why wish for legacy events to be something else. This is self serving and demanding immediate gratification.
You also "hope to play Legacy one day" so this is were you lack patience and foresight. So why replace those events that exist now.
BTW the lands cost up to $160 for revised duals and go as high as $3500 for a pimped out Alpha underground sea. And guess what? We don't care because we love it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7790606#post7790606
And still no matter how you look at it, a person has to spend $160 in one shot to get that underground sea. It's not like modern where even the fetchlands go to $33ish at most.
If I were to start making a legacy deck right now, it would take me about 2 years without spending on any other formats to create a fun, top tier deck. I wouldn't call that an ignorant search for 'immediate gratification', it's just I would rather put my hard earned money towards modern, which I'll actually be able to play sooner than years down the road. I'm 18 years old, working as a delivery guy, and going to college next year. If I put $130 (or I'm sorry, $160) towards an original dual, I'll be sitting on it for the next X years doing nothing with it. A magic card without a deck around it is simply a piece of cardboard, or at best a trading piece at which point I would have rather just spent the money on the cards I'm trading it for in the first place. I can't afford to buy magic cards and sit on them until they increase in value and then sell it/trade it for more than I spent sometime later.
All I'm saying is that for a huge portion of people trying to play Magic the Gathering, Legacy is not a viable option.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7790606#post7790606
To be honest, with some patience you can get MP duals on eBay for well below the quoted SCG prices. I've gotten Underground Seas for $80 (about 6 months ago) and a Tropical Island for $60. Yes, that's still a lot of money, but if you do the work and are patient, you can get them (slowly).
Also as you have noted, if you don't invest as much into Standard you'd be surprised how quickly you'll have money for Legacy staples. I personally only play Legacy and Draft and put all my draft winnings into either store credit (i.e. get store credit instead of packs) or turn my rares into store credit as well. I was able to purchase a Scrubland by doing that for about two months.
Lastly, I'd honestly say Fetch lands are more important than Dual Lands. Most decks do not *need* four of a dual land (maybe two is enough in many cases) and frankly you could get away with running Shocks so long as you had the fetches. And even with Fetches there are cheaper alternatives (i.e. Zendikar). I'll agree that Shocks won't be as efficient, but if you simply want to play and compete, they are acceptable. You won't outright lose every game because of two damage although a handful of times it may happen. Either way, it's a place to start and as I said, grow from there.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress