like murderous redcap maga's trigger is stopped by a stifle. triskelion essentially can fire over and over with a series of activated abilities instead of all coming down to the wire of one successful resolution of a trigger ability.
triskelion- pros- doesn't lose to stifle cons- stopped by phyrexian revoker/pithing needle possibly a renegade korsan grip murderous redcap- pros-if any they have gone unnoticed cons- ability is stopped by stifle, circle of protections (used by opponents sideboard board for both progenitus and goblins.) and any other damage prevention method out there. Maga, traitor to mortals- pros- does not use damage cons- can be stopped by stifle.
over all con that applies to all is they can lose to leyline of sanctity or similar untargetable effects.
no all match ups pack these threats but its good to be aware of them ahead of time, when deciding which one you want to use.
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probably the mimeoplasm since it doesn't need the attack phase to win.
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Can someone explain the mechanism by which emrakul protects you from GY hate (e.g., Tordmod's Crypt). Can't your opponent still activate the TC with Emrakul's trigger on the stack, or fizzle your Dread Return?
yes they can wait and exile your graveyard with emrakul's trigger on the stack. in theory you don't want to hit emrakul until they put an "exile graveyard" ability on the stack.
i suppose dread return could be fizzled any number of ways, but if the combo is going you can respond to dread return on the stack by stacking new graveyard mill effects till you get a new target for dread return to return.
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it is still viable but unfortunately i think it faces an uphill fight in the current meta.
hive mind is a simple combo race, both decks usually pack same counter magic so "who ever has the last force wins" might be senario in this match up.
merfolk has a lot of 50/50 factors to it. if they know what there doing they will just save counters for dread return.
other aggro usually cannot kill fast enough or impliment answers beyond graveyard removal.
control might have a better match up in the current meta as they maybe mainboarding more creature hate for stoneforge decks and green sun zenith based aggro. this being a creature combo deck in an environment more heavily dominated with creature hate is why i think the meta is not the best for this deck right now.
however this is a tier 1 deck that just doesn't get played enough by enough people so it always has a surprise match up factor going for it when it goes into a tournament which is a huge edge. Lot of people don't know what this deck is and are never sure how to beat it beyond the default sideboarding of gravehate.
------------------------------
it also occurs to me that laboratory maniac is yet another viable kill condition for this deck. what are others thoughts on this?
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Laboratory Maniac looks like an incredibly good win condition, especially if you have a cantrip in hand. It seems a bit more resilient to hate, and could probably free up a few more slots from the combo.
Laboratory Maniac looks like an incredibly good win condition, especially if you have a cantrip in hand. It seems a bit more resilient to hate, and could probably free up a few more slots from the combo.
yes mimoplasm enters as a copy of trisky and will have trisky's 6 cc according to the rules of copying creatures. so dragon breath will trigger and attach.
if mimoplasm copies triskelion and burns another creature for counters you don't need dragon breath to go off. summoning sickness only stops activated abilities with "tap" as part of the activation cost, which trisky doesn't have so he can go off right away not hindered by summoning sickness.
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Laboratory Maniac looks like an incredibly good win condition, especially if you have a cantrip in hand. It seems a bit more resilient to hate, and could probably free up a few more slots from the combo.
maniac is strictly worse than the mime win con. it forces you to either have a cantrip in hand, the mana to pay for it and it not get countered, or, end your turn and wait to see if your opponent can get rid of it or attack you for lethal before you get to your next draw phase. i would much rather just win on the spot with mime.
maniac is strictly worse than the mime win con. it forces you to either have a cantrip in hand, the mana to pay for it and it not get countered, or, end your turn and wait to see if your opponent can get rid of it or attack you for lethal before you get to your next draw phase. i would much rather just win on the spot with mime.
ya but if you utilize lets say lion's eye diamond for a big mana ramp and deep analysis suddenly it doesn't look so bad. lion's eye diamonds interaction with eldamir's call or living wish gives you the mana you need to cast either illusionist or nomads with 1 left over to help pay for a milled deep analysis.
Atleast thats what the vintage deck with hermit druid attempts to do in a similar fashion.
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I've been running the Laboratory Maniac and Deep Analysis win condition. I have 2 additional Laboratory Maniac in the side board. There is a guy in my playgroup who has been running High Tide. Makes for a strange matchup. I want to win by having Laboratory Maniac in play and he has to focus on bouncing him before he mills me.
I just wanted to know if y'all had any input on this complicated matchup?
i suppose you could splash a volcanic island or some red source for a sideboard of Obstinate Familiar he only cost 1. i would think he would throw a hitch into spiral tides plans. only issue is if they are running the snap version of spiral tide which bounces there own weather seed faeries. they will just bounce familiar instead.
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I've been running the Laboratory Maniac and Deep Analysis win condition. I have 2 additional Laboratory Maniac in the side board. There is a guy in my playgroup who has been running High Tide. Makes for a strange matchup. I want to win by having Laboratory Maniac in play and he has to focus on bouncing him before he mills me.
I just wanted to know if y'all had any input on this complicated matchup?
You already are in a bad position if he is able to combo off, what you could try to do in response to mill 60 is
Cast Deep Analysis/Brainstorm
Vialing in the Maniac in response to the instant speed draw
Play Ohrim's Chant as protection and go into a giant counter war hoping to have the Maniac stick.
The problem with this approach is it only works if your opponent has a shallow hand. Many times someone playing high tide will first draw out their deck, and fighting 4 Fows / 0-4 Pact of Negation is something you don't want to do.
The good thing is that we typically run more protection than high tide, and the protection can be used to attack it. In response to a Mediate you can Force of Will, Ohrim's Chant. You can Cabal Therapy High Tide the turn after they tutor for it.
Or you can just win the game faster than they can :D. That works too. But if you are trying to win the game faster, I wouldn't rely on Laboratory Maniac because you need mana open for a draw spell
Killed by Stifle (they'll cast it on any creature's trigger)
Killed by creature removal (they'll cast it when the Kiki-Jiki trigger is on the stack)
Involves attack phase
Thermopod, Emrakul, and Kumano
Pros:
Infinite damage
Doesn't involve attack phase
Not killed by creature removal (sac Thermopod to itself in response, mill Emrakul, get Narcomoebas, Dread Return Thermopod, repeat--with Kumano, activate abilities in response--use 3 Dread Returns to ensure going off in the face of removal)
Cons:
Targets players
Killed by Stifle (they'll cast it on the first Emrakul trigger)
Necrotic Ooze, Dwarven Strike Force, Kiki-Jiki, and Mogg Fanatic
Pros:
Infinite damage
Doesn't involve attack phase
Not killed by creature removal (grant haste in response again, then combo off in their face)
Can pull it off even with two combo pieces stuck in hand (those 2 being Kiki-Jiki and Mogg Fanatic)--just discard them with the Dwarven Strike Force ability
Cons:
Targets players
Killed by Stifle (they'll cast it on the sim-Kiki-Jiki trigger)
Requires at least 1 card in hand the turn you go off
they should add that to the premier/ if they don't have better displayed already.
thats the best looking/written pros and cons of each kill condition i've seen displayed so far.
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about the list with maniac in the sideboard, I was wondering, wouldn't you rather have living wish in your main board so you have the option to take advantage of that game 1?
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Neat trick I found from testing: You can combo off even with any two combo pieces stuck in hand (e.g. The Mimeoplasm and your only Dread Return) as long as you mill enough Cabal Therapys. Just sac the Nomads and Illusionist to them and you should be fine.
Neat trick I found from testing: You can combo off even with any two combo pieces stuck in hand (e.g. The Mimeoplasm and your only Dread Return) as long as you mill enough Cabal Therapys. Just sac the Nomads and Illusionist to them and you should be fine.
Yup, I believe that's something i mention on the primer. I also have to do it more often than I would like to admit if I'm running a version that does not use brainstorm.
I've always been fascinated with this deck since I first learned about Legacy. I've never played it but I've been fascinated recently with the idea of cutting Nomads en-kor for Stoneforge, Feast and Famine, Batterskull, and obviously Shuko. It allows you to play the combo control game and also gives you an an counter-able with Vial set at two. Has anyone tried this? What would be the best support?
this seems weak, since you are only able to equip at sorcery speed a swords to plowshares can ruin your combo where before you could go off without passing priority before it became too late. Although if you were doing something like this i would suggest lighting greaves, although they cost 1 more to cast you are able to give your mimoplasam haste encase you need to swing in for some reason
I've always been fascinated with this deck since I first learned about Legacy. I've never played it but I've been fascinated recently with the idea of cutting Nomads en-kor for Stoneforge, Feast and Famine, Batterskull, and obviously Shuko. It allows you to play the combo control game and also gives you an an counter-able with Vial set at two. Has anyone tried this? What would be the best support?
say what?
that sounds like a strange stoneforge hybrid deck. like you have the aggro option of stoneforge if you don't get the combo right off the bat?
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Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
triskelion- pros- doesn't lose to stifle
cons- stopped by phyrexian revoker/pithing needle possibly a renegade korsan grip
murderous redcap- pros-if any they have gone unnoticed
cons- ability is stopped by stifle, circle of protections (used by opponents sideboard board for both progenitus and goblins.) and any other damage prevention method out there.
Maga, traitor to mortals- pros- does not use damage
cons- can be stopped by stifle.
over all con that applies to all is they can lose to leyline of sanctity or similar untargetable effects.
no all match ups pack these threats but its good to be aware of them ahead of time, when deciding which one you want to use.
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Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
My Mafia Stats - My Helpdesk
G Omnath, Locus of Mana U Arcum Dagsson BUG The Mimeoplasm GW Gaddock Teeg X Karn, Silver Golem
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Awesome! Now I can use my Karmic Guide in my EDH deck! This new combo is pretty cheap too!
My Mafia Stats - My Helpdesk
G Omnath, Locus of Mana U Arcum Dagsson BUG The Mimeoplasm GW Gaddock Teeg X Karn, Silver Golem
i suppose dread return could be fizzled any number of ways, but if the combo is going you can respond to dread return on the stack by stacking new graveyard mill effects till you get a new target for dread return to return.
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Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
hive mind is a simple combo race, both decks usually pack same counter magic so "who ever has the last force wins" might be senario in this match up.
merfolk has a lot of 50/50 factors to it. if they know what there doing they will just save counters for dread return.
other aggro usually cannot kill fast enough or impliment answers beyond graveyard removal.
control might have a better match up in the current meta as they maybe mainboarding more creature hate for stoneforge decks and green sun zenith based aggro. this being a creature combo deck in an environment more heavily dominated with creature hate is why i think the meta is not the best for this deck right now.
however this is a tier 1 deck that just doesn't get played enough by enough people so it always has a surprise match up factor going for it when it goes into a tournament which is a huge edge. Lot of people don't know what this deck is and are never sure how to beat it beyond the default sideboarding of gravehate.
------------------------------
it also occurs to me that laboratory maniac is yet another viable kill condition for this deck. what are others thoughts on this?
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Question, if The Mimeoplasm enters in as a copy of Triskelion, will Dragon Breath attach itself to it?
Trade List
yes mimoplasm enters as a copy of trisky and will have trisky's 6 cc according to the rules of copying creatures. so dragon breath will trigger and attach.
if mimoplasm copies triskelion and burns another creature for counters you don't need dragon breath to go off. summoning sickness only stops activated abilities with "tap" as part of the activation cost, which trisky doesn't have so he can go off right away not hindered by summoning sickness.
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maniac is strictly worse than the mime win con. it forces you to either have a cantrip in hand, the mana to pay for it and it not get countered, or, end your turn and wait to see if your opponent can get rid of it or attack you for lethal before you get to your next draw phase. i would much rather just win on the spot with mime.
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ya but if you utilize lets say lion's eye diamond for a big mana ramp and deep analysis suddenly it doesn't look so bad. lion's eye diamonds interaction with eldamir's call or living wish gives you the mana you need to cast either illusionist or nomads with 1 left over to help pay for a milled deep analysis.
Atleast thats what the vintage deck with hermit druid attempts to do in a similar fashion.
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I just wanted to know if y'all had any input on this complicated matchup?
Twitter- RogueSource.
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Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
You already are in a bad position if he is able to combo off, what you could try to do in response to mill 60 is
Cast Deep Analysis/Brainstorm
Vialing in the Maniac in response to the instant speed draw
Play Ohrim's Chant as protection and go into a giant counter war hoping to have the Maniac stick.
The problem with this approach is it only works if your opponent has a shallow hand. Many times someone playing high tide will first draw out their deck, and fighting 4 Fows / 0-4 Pact of Negation is something you don't want to do.
The good thing is that we typically run more protection than high tide, and the protection can be used to attack it. In response to a Mediate you can Force of Will, Ohrim's Chant. You can Cabal Therapy High Tide the turn after they tutor for it.
Or you can just win the game faster than they can :D. That works too. But if you are trying to win the game faster, I wouldn't rely on Laboratory Maniac because you need mana open for a draw spell
Trade List
Dread Return The Mimeoplasm and have it enter as a copy of Triskelion with +1/+1 counters on it equal to the power of Lord of Extinction. Then shoot them for around 50 damage.
Sutured Ghoul
Pros:
Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite
Pros:
Thermopod, Emrakul, and Kumano
Pros:
Necrotic Ooze, Dwarven Strike Force, Kiki-Jiki, and Mogg Fanatic
Pros:
Sun Titan, Emrakul, and Blasting Station
Pros:
Mimeoplasm
Pros:
Laboratory Maniac
Pros:
thats the best looking/written pros and cons of each kill condition i've seen displayed so far.
-----------
about the list with maniac in the sideboard, I was wondering, wouldn't you rather have living wish in your main board so you have the option to take advantage of that game 1?
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Yup, I believe that's something i mention on the primer. I also have to do it more often than I would like to admit if I'm running a version that does not use brainstorm.
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L1 Judge
say what?
that sounds like a strange stoneforge hybrid deck. like you have the aggro option of stoneforge if you don't get the combo right off the bat?
if that is what your are going for just play the tarmogoyf version and use sutured ghoul for late game smash and win.
or play double combo of phyrexian dreadnought stifle.
or run death's shadow over stifle nought for aggro/ghoul powering in same deck.
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!